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Exposed nails on Hardiplank trim

WILLIAM_H's picture

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TINA, I HAVE INSTALLED HARDIE PANEL (4X10) OVER 1/2" PLYWOOD,BARELY COUNTERSUNK THE NAILS, 8d,HDG BOX NAILS AND THEN FILLED OVER THE TOP WITH BONDO AND AT SEAMS,THEN SANDED SMOOTH.IT HAS BEEN ABOUT 6 MONTHS AND SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN A SUCCESS. IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT HARDIE DIDN'T WANT NAILS COUNTERSUNK BECAUSE IT WOULD DECREASE THE SHEAR VALUE,AND DEFINITELY NOT COUNTERSINK TO FAR BECAUSE THERE ISN'T TOO MUCH MATERIAL THICKNESS TO BEGIN WITH.I THINK YOU'LL BE SAFE WITH YOUR WINDOW TRIM COUNTERSINKING. GOOODLUCK

(post #176659, reply #22 of 25)

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Clay--You're right, it does appear to be shouting. Thanks Bill

(post #176659, reply #24 of 25)

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TinaG
I use rink shank Galv.8d or 10ds.The manuf. says not to sink. Because it will cause water damage. If not installed proper the warranty is void. I use a nail gun, shoot the nail so the head can be tapped in with your hammer.
I know you have a lot of diff. options and i'm not saying any are wrong, But don't go with Claybee Why would you or any one want to do that.

Good Luck Rusty

(post #176659, reply #25 of 25)

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What do you do with the exposed nails on Hardiplank trim around windows, etc. Countersink and patch with cementitious (?) compound? Installation instructions say not to countersink. Do we just paint over the nailheads?

(post #176659, reply #1 of 25)

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Tina,

What have you used for the trim?

(post #176659, reply #2 of 25)

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Mark -- Harditrim.

(post #176659, reply #3 of 25)

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Sorry Tina, although Hardies are an Australian Co. and we have been using planks here for a long time, we don't have " Harditrim".

(post #176659, reply #4 of 25)

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If you haven't already, you may want to go to the Hardy web site and send them an e-mail question. They responded to my questions about their product.

(post #176659, reply #5 of 25)

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The Hardy site -- http://www.jameshardie.com/usahome.htm -- has a lot of info badly organized. I suppose you could use finish nails countersunk and patched conventionally, say with Bondo/Minwax filler or Red Devil One Time (whatever these products are called...) -- the fiber-cement is dimensionally stable. Or hot-dip regular nails painted over.

I'm considering using the stuff along gutters and other high-rot areas. Did you like it? What dimensions (1x?)? Did it take nails poorly?

(post #176659, reply #6 of 25)

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I emailed the Hardie boys and heard back that the trim needs to be treated same way as siding...i.e. no countersinking. But the places I see where the crew has inadvertently countersunk seem firmly anchored. Hardi says if countersunk (by mistake, I guess) to fill with cementitious (there's that word again) compound and then hammer in another nail. I'm thinking we could cover the countersunk nails (and maybe very thinly the flush nails) with compound then paint.

So far, I like the siding. We're using the 9-1/2" clapboards I think called roughsawn -- has a woodgrain to it (exposure is about 8-1/2 I think). (sorry about all the "I thinks" -- left all my house "stuff" down the road and too lazy to go get it) Haven't talked to the crew putting it up, but they're still smiling at me and progress is pretty good, I think, so I guess all is well. We bought the factory-primed stuff and will paint when all done. Using Maze double dipped galvanized nails made for this type siding. My only reservation is with the trim .... I don't think it cuts as clean as wood (or it doesn't seem to when I look at corners around windows, etc. some seemed frayed). But maybe finish coat of paint will camouflage that. Don't like the exposed nailheads on trim much, either, but maybe that's just me. Since there no other houses nearby to look at, I'll have to wait for next trip to town to see what other window trim looks like. (Magazine pictures always look so PERFECT -- touched up just like models in the swimsuit ads...).

By the way, used Timbertech decking and like it so far...doesn't seem to "tramboline" the way trex and other can.

(post #176659, reply #7 of 25)

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Tina,

Before I "very thinly" covered the flush nails with compound and then paint, I would get a scrap piece and try it to see what that looks like. I am sure
i I
would prefer the painted flush nail over the thinly covered nail.

Someone who knows better than me will hopefully chime in, but I would think that the frayed edges need to be cleaned up before painting. Perhaps with a rasp. Painting the frayed edge just gives you a painted frayed edge, it doesn't undo the fray (so to speak).

Rich Beckman

(post #176659, reply #8 of 25)

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Thanks, Rich. I figured we'd need to fix those frayed edges with rasp or something. There are some pieces lying around I can experiment with. And I'll try painting the nails, too. This is our first house (to build) and first time I've had to consider such details...wasn't sure if painted nails were "acceptable". I'm always a big fan of KSS (keeping it simple, stupid...)

(post #176659, reply #9 of 25)

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Tina & Andrew,

We used 7/16" HardiTrim for facia on the house we are building now. We face nailed but did not countersink. After a coat of prime and two coats of finish they (the nail heads) are hard to see. We also used 5/16" HardiPlank siding. Ours is the 12" width which must be faced nailed. In both cases, the material has the cedar pattern which may help to hide the nails. We used 1/4" smooth HardiSofit and the nail heads are more pronounced. Overall, I am very pleased with the results.

As an asside, my dealear was having problems getting some of the Tamlyn & Sons vinyl trim accesories we needed for our job. The wholesaler was not responsive. I sent an e-mail to Tamlyn [http://www.tamlyn.com] and they arranged for me to get what I needed almost over night.

Shortly thereafter, I received a packet of information about Tamlyn and Hardi products. Very informative. They included their catalog which lists a wide range of specialized building products. They also included a flyer for a "diamond blade for all fiber-cement siding." Supposed to outlast carbide blades 100:1. No price. Not a Tamlyn product. Available from Power Diamond Tools in Houston, 888-968-5990. Wish I had known about the specialized blade when I started working with Hardie board.

We are using "Big Stretch" caulk which is approved/recommended for use with Hardie products.

You can not get Hardi material in 3/4" or 1" thickness. For corner boards you must use wood or one of the Tamlyn vinyl products. Hector Garcia at James Hardie told me they were working on a thicker board but were having problems comming up with something that can be nailed.

Hope this helps. E-mail me if I can help.

Steve

(post #176659, reply #10 of 25)

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Tina , try Maze slim jim stainlessteel trim nails . Slim jims have a small head with a ring pattern ,should hide well when painted.

(post #176659, reply #11 of 25)

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Thanks Steve. What did you use around windows -- did you butt to the casings or insert a J-channel? Were these Hardie casings?

I'm not sure I'd like nailheads on eye-level on window trim, unless it's a rustic-looking house already. I infer that Hardie does not want countersinking for two reasons (1) it will let water in; (2) the pullout strength will be much worse. Only the surfaces of the stuff is waterproof and hard. If you countersink finish nails, you can deal with problem #1 easy enough, and there surely are ways to address #2 with extra fasteners or adhesive, etc. I assume the pullout resistance is a MUCH bigger deal on wide wind-grabbing strips of siding that may be nailed only every 24"! If one strip of siding pulls free ... well, it would be ugly.

Maybe the innards of the trim are just too mushy. Good Q for Hardie.

(post #176659, reply #12 of 25)

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Steve - this may be a stupid question, but when you talk about corner boards, do you mean the trim at house corners? Our guys are using Harditrim there as well as around windows, butting to the casings. Too late to change trim nails...as most windows are already done and Maze nails have to be special ordered out here....I ordered two boxes of them but crew now says they don't fit their nailers. Really wanted that lifetime anti-rust warranty.

(post #176659, reply #13 of 25)

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Sheesh, like it would kill them to hand-nail now and then...

(post #176659, reply #14 of 25)

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Tina,

Different Steve here, but in answer to your question, yes those are the cornerboards.

Just curious, if the trim stock is only 7/16 inch thick, do the lapped layers of siding stand proud of it or do they still stay below the level of the trim? Do they shim the trim up to make it stand fatter off the sheathing, or just use it as is?

As to the nails, even double-dipped galvanized will rust. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. But since you are painting, it shouldn't make any real difference. Just keep the paint up. Next time though, I would go with stainless. I wouldn't use anything but stainless for clear finished or unfinished wood. I only use stainless screws for decks now.

Steve

(post #176659, reply #15 of 25)

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Steve -- For corner trim they did as with windows -- 1x3 wood first, then Hardi trim over so siding level is just under trim level and trim slightly overlaps. (Siding butts to the 1x3.)Thought of using stainless nails, too, but now I can't even remember why not. Possibly price. And don't know if they'd use them if they couldn't get them to fit in coil nailer as with the Maze nails.

(post #176659, reply #16 of 25)

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TINA, I HAVE INSTALLED HARDIE PANEL (4X10) OVER 1/2" PLYWOOD,BARELY COUNTERSUNK THE NAILS, 8d,HDG BOX NAILS AND THEN FILLED OVER THE TOP WITH BONDO AND AT SEAMS,THEN SANDED SMOOTH.IT HAS BEEN ABOUT 6 MONTHS AND SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN A SUCCESS. IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT HARDIE DIDN'T WANT NAILS COUNTERSUNK BECAUSE IT WOULD DECREASE THE SHEAR VALUE,AND DEFINITELY NOT COUNTERSINK TO FAR BECAUSE THERE ISN'T TOO MUCH MATERIAL THICKNESS TO BEGIN WITH.I THINK YOU'LL BE SAFE WITH YOUR WINDOW TRIM COUNTERSINKING. GOOODLUCK

(post #176659, reply #17 of 25)

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Andrew,

We used wood brick mold. It covers the fins on the windows and makes replacement, should it be necessary, a more practical proposition. Set the nails down and filled the holes with putty. We also used wood for the water table and corner boards. Not 100% maintenance free.

Tamyln makes inside and outside vinyl corner trim, "J" mold, etc. We had some situations, siding to brick at corners, for example, that their products would not solve. Also, I used HardiPlank siding to avoid the look of vinyl.

So, in my case, a little bit of exterior wood was unavoidable.

HardiBoard looks like it is one solid mass. If, however, you hit a sample in the same place a couple of times with a hammer you will see that it seperates into plies. It is really a pressed product. Once the bond between plies is broken the material loses its strength.

As I noted earlier, face nailing on the smooth stuf is noticeable but the textured surface seems to hide the nail heads fairly well.

Steve

(post #176659, reply #18 of 25)

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I checked yesterday -- the hardie site is MUCH better now -- and found I can get my desired 8" reveal blind nailing the 9+" stuff. So I'm happy, and I bet the nails will last a longer time tucked up there.

An interesting point on nails -- when people started to have trouble with siding trapping moisture, then rotting and peeling off the paint, someone pointed out that the old type box nails had a protruding head that held each strip off the one below by a little bit. Sometimes a nail head sticking out a little is a good thing.

(post #176659, reply #19 of 25)

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Until some painter comes along and caulks all those gaps. I am just finishing up painting a house...the previous painter caulked everything in sight!

Rich Beckman

(post #176659, reply #20 of 25)

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Thing with hand-nailing hardi-anything, you bend four out of five nails for any one spot.

(post #176659, reply #21 of 25)

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I think I am in agreement with William H, even though he appears to be shouting. We are talking about trim here, not siding. There is a sliver of fiberglass in the middle of all HardiPlank siding and it seems that if you don't penetrate THAT your sheer strength/shatter rate should remain pretty good, it's like the re-bar in slabs, it'll still hold together. I don't have any idea of what a cross cut in harditrim reveals, but I figure if you don't penetrate any fiberglass with a big [JOBSITE WORD] nail head you should be good. Otherwise, countersink everything, and if it doesn't work, jump on a lawsuit bandwagon in ten years (ever heard of DRYVIT?). Oh yeah, and caulk the damn holes if you want, or bondo, or whatever, and get inside the house and start worrying about where the sofa is going to go (meaning--try not to give yourself an ulcer over details, almost anything works for twenty years or so, this is fun stuff you're doing, enjoy it.)

Cheers,

Clay

(post #176659, reply #23 of 25)

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When we're hanging Hardieplank, we use a bostich Coil nailer (N60)with adjustable nose and a stainless steel ring shank nail, usually 8d, set it snug, not countersunk, and paint it. Same with the trim, some of the trim,( Hardie, Abtco, GP Prime TRim), just doesn't want to be nailed below the surface.
With wood siding and LEAD BASED paint, you could set the nail below the surface, prime it, putty it and paint it and it would dissappear and stay there for two hundred years. But that isn't what we're working with here.