*
i’m restoring an old carriage house and am in the process of replacing all the old roof trim(mostly rotten)with cedar rakes, facia and soffits.this house has three additions and rooflines going everywhere. there is over 200 feet of crown molding(double that to include the bed moldings under the soffits and rakes)multiple pitches and everything is going to be stained! i need tight joints (no filler) how do i determine the compound angle where the rake crown molding meets the eave crown molding? the molding follows the roofline not under the rake return shelf. is there a chart for different pitches( that would be wonderful) or at least a formula? everything i’ve read at this and other sites is for interior flat ceilings. this is a labor of love (it’s my house) and any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
From not venting your bathroom to not venting your siding, understanding how things go wrong is the first step to getting them right.
Featured Video
SawStop's Portable Tablesaw is Bigger and Better Than BeforeHighlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
*
Bill this subject has been hashed out before do a search here and reread. Also i belive that delta has a table on there web site.
*B.R. please post the directions to places on this subject. i'm sure it will be usable later. the way i've done it in the past, figuring the new cuts from the old (which 225 yrs ago were done by hand), worked,but still required adjustment and experimentation. a reliable table, with a simple explanation might just be easier. thanks
*
I may be slow but I believe that I've done a reasonably thorough search here and at other sites and with one exception all the answers seem to pertain to interior trim in rooms with flat ceilings or they came up with solutions that won't work in my application. at the bottom of this note I will list most of the most informative sites that I found.
My house had wooden gutters originally and when they rotted out the rake boards that came down to form the ends of the gutters were hacked off and a new aluminum gutters were installed, therefore I can't copy the old ones.
If I've missed the appropriate site or I'm too dense to figure out the formula I would really appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction.
Following is a list of the sites that I found...
http://www.deltawoodworking.com/charts/moulding.html
http://www.wwforum.com/faqs_articles/miter_formula.html
http://remodeling.hw.net/talk/msg.htm?FID=15&SID=1004&MsgID=4221&limit=0
http://www.taunton.com:8090/WebX?233@@.../2!enclosure=.ee808d
And this last site is actually for exterior crown molding but only for a specific application and not my application.
http://builder.hw.net/talk/msg.sht?FID=1&SID=2454&MsgID=8499&limit=0
I know I can be successful doing this by trial and error, but it would be so much nicer to either have a chart or know the math formula or both. Thanks Bill
*
Bill - Is there any way you could post a couple photos, or maybe a drawing? There are so many words in your original post, I kind of get lost trying to figure out what you have and what you need. I do much better with pictures and would be glad to try, but I'm a little confused. - jb
*
Bill, I know how you can make a wooden mitre box to find the angles you are looking for.
Make a U-shaped mitre box that will snuggly support your crown molding in its proper configuration. Assuming you know the pitch of your roof, use your framing square and find the inches per foot run. for example, the inches per foot run of a 6/12 pitch is 13.42. Set the square on top of the mitre box with the body in your left hand, the tongue in your right and the heel away from you. Using the example of a 6/12 pitch, you would register 13.42 inches on the body of the square to the edge of the mitre box closest to you. Register the tongue of the square at 12 inches to the same edge of the mitre box, taking care to register your points from the same edge of the square. The body of the square will be laying over the other verticle side of your Mitre box, draw a line across both top edges. This will give you the angle of the cut.
From these points, use the plumb cut of your pitch to mark down the sides of the box. This will give you the bevel cut. Reverse the process, marking from the same side of the box, to get your mating cut.
Once you have tried a couple of scrap peices of crown, you can use a bevel square to find the angles and use a compound mitre saw to duplicate the cuts or if you have a sharp hand saw and your wooden box is accurate, just continue to use it.
Hope this helps.
*
Bill,
I second jim "crazy legs, not from texas, but an honorary citizen" blodgett's advice.
Could you post either a photo or diagram of what exactly you are trying to replace? If not, could you explain in more accurate terms, exactly where this crown molding is located with respect to the other framing members ( the fascia, the soffit, the wall sheathing )?
The sentence that has me most confused about your initial post is, "the molding follows the roofline not under the rake return shelf". I'm not sure exactly where that puts it.
Please clarify that for me and I'll give your problem a shot. You might also mention the roof pitches involved where these intersections occur.
Also, is the fascia plumb, or cut square to the tails? (if it is a factor in this problem) and, does the soffit run level or follow the roof pitch?
If you have a sample of the crown molding, could you determine if it is "typical" 52/38 degree crown? If not, what is the angle? The supplier should have this information if you don't have the material on jobsite at this point.
*
until january of this year I was a computer illiterate, i hadn't even turned one on. so i bought a book, studied up for a couple of months and in march I built my own. the hardware was easy but i'm pretty shaky on the software and i can't make my printer/scanner/ copier send out any pictures or text cause it has propriatary software that other people are supposed to be able to read but mostly they can't unless they have an h.p. so all that just to say that I'll have to explain the situation...roof pitch is 44 degrees(11 pitch), facia is plumb, soffit is level and turns corner at gable end and extends approx. 30 inches(rake or cornice return) the shelf on top of the cornice return is under the crown molding. the top of the crown molding is flush with the top surface of the roof sheathing on the rakes and eaves(the drip edge curls over the top of the crown molding all around the roof. the crown molding on the rake is 4 1/4 inches wide and on the eaves it is 3 5/8 inches wide(otherwise they would never match up cause the angle at the bottom of the rake crown molding is less that 10 degrees while the piece on the facia is 30 something degrees...I think) the angle on the crown molding is 38 degrees out from the house. my rake boards stick out approx. 8 inches from the gable end walls so the rake boards and the (soffit boards?) under them come down and sit on the rake return shelf(probably not the right terminology )I apollogize for bein' a poor explainer. hope this helps, be happy to supply any more info!
until that time, bill
*You inspired me to learn something new. Here is a picture in "paint" software. See attached file crown molding.bmp. bill ritchie
*
you da man bill. nice pic. that's exactly what i thought you were saying. check out maddog madlin's post in crown mlding ...mitre or cope . in the breaktime disc. he's got a tool which might help. best of luck.
now that i think of it, shoot just go up there and bisect that angle and cut away anything that gets in the way. remember that tight is pretty tight. you're not painting this , are you? damn, mitre magic could sure come in handy.
'
*Bill,Thanks for the reply. A very good one, BTWSee you tomorrow.
*Bill You mentioned that the roof pitch is 44 degrees or 11/12 pitch.11/12 pitch is 42 1/2 degrees.11 9/16 /12 would be 44 degrees.Could you clear that up for me.Otherwise, so far, I've been able to work up some nasty looking mathematical formulas, which I won't post at this point, that can predict the angle and the bevel, for both the rake crown and the eave crown for any roof pitch up to and including 9 3/8 /12, which happens to be a roof whose slope is 38 degrees or exactly the same as the crown molding angle ( 38/52)After I go beyond a 38 degree roof slope, I'm thinking that I may need a new set of formulas, but am not sure yet. Will let you know soon so that we can get the numbers for the 11/12 pitch roof on the house.In the meantime, here are the angles and bevels to make the compound cuts for several roof pitches. If you have some short scrap 2x4 ( about 16") laying around you can cut these angles and bevels on them and see for yourself how things are going to work out ahead of time. You'll notice that as you mentioned in your post, that the crown that runs down the rake will have to be wider than the eave crown. This is absolutely true but is also predictable, and not such a difficult problem. I'll talk about that later when I post the angles and bevels for the 11/12 pitch that you need.Roof pitch = 3/12....Rake crown angle = 19 1/2 degrees, rake crown bevel = 37 3/4 degrees.....Eave crown angle = 35 1/2 degrees, eave crown bevel = 37 3/4 degrees.Roof Pitch = 6/12....Rake crown angle = 9 degrees, rake crown bevel = 41 1/2 degrees....Eave crown angle = 37 1/2 degrees, eave crown bevel = 41 1/2 degreesRoof pitch = 9/12....Rake crown angle = 1 degree, rake crown bevel = 44 1/2 degrees....Eave crown angle = 38 degrees, eave crown bevel = 44 1/2 degreesRoof pitch = 9 3/8 /12...Rake crown angle = 0 degrees, rake crown bevel = 45 degrees....eave crown angle = 38 degrees, eave crown bevel = 45 degrees.Take a few minutes to mock-up at least one of these using 2x4, ( I did 2 of them and they both worked), you'll really get a feel for whats going on. How much time do you have before you need the answer for the 11/12 roof?
*Bill,Thanks for the e-mail clarifying that the actual slope of the roof is 44 degrees, not 11/12, or 42 1/2 degrees, as well as other information.In fairness to others that may be following this thread, I'll post the solutions that I found here so that they also could mock up the pieces using 2x4 to see how this works. I did, and would also encourge you to do so.Roof pitch = 44 degrees....rake crown angle = 4 3/4 degrees, rake crown bevel = 47 degrees......eave crown angle = 37 3/4 degrees, eave crown bevel = 47 degrees.I hope that your compound slider can bevel at 47 degrees.I'm sure that you and others reading this post realize that the above angles and bevels are for cutting the crown molding when it lays flat on the table of the miter saw.Bill, one thing that you will find a bit unusual when cutting the rake crown, is that the short point of the angle is at the top of the crown, not the bottom, as in the examples that I posted earlier. Once the roof pitch goes beyond the angle of the crown molding (38 degrees away from vertical), the long point will be down.Suppose the width of the eave crown molding that you are running around the perimeter of the house is 3 5/8". When you make the 37 3/4 degree cut on it, the length of that cut will be a hair under 4 5/8".If you now transfer this measurement to the 4 3/4 degree cut on the rake crown, it would mean that the rake crown would have to be 4 9/16" for the two cuts to match up.The ratio of 4 9/16" to 3 5/8" is 1.26. So, no matter what width you use for the eave crown, the rake crown will be 1.26 times as large, or about 1 1/4 times the width of the eave crown. This means that new stock must be milled to make them match up. That will be a bit tricky, by I'm sure possible. Please post a reply here and let us know how things are working out.
*ken, if this works out, you are one impressive man. how the heck did you do that?
*Calvin,I'm right in the middle of cutting a roof for a new contractor, so I'm a bit tired tonight, and won't go into full detail.This coming weekend, which is not far off, I'll give an explanation of how I arrived at these results.But, to give you a hint, in my mind, I lowered the rake fascia, and hence, the crown molding, to level, so that both pieces of crown molding were level, then flipped the whole thing over, and viewed it as a split pitch roof framing problem.
*joe, you can count on me saving this. i had the same situation but had the previous pcs. albeit a little the worse for wear. i was able to free hand it and had the benefit of a sq. faced crown which made it easy to make up on site. still i felt like a new guy trying to cut his first crown. so when i saw someone actually trying to figure it out i was in awe. my personal opinion is that this crown would be up by now. but i'm still interested in the why....even if i won't understand it. thanks to you guys for doing this.
*Bill,Good Morning.Would you do me a favor? Take a piece of the old eave crown and a piece of the old rake crown and make a square on both. Now butt them to each other and let me know if the patterns match.Also, if any of the old stuff is still on the house, try to determine if if both the rake crown and eave crown are installed at 38 degrees. If not, try to determine the angles that they lie at.These two pieces of information can help clear up matters.
*Well, I guess I'll throw some gas on the fire.I couldn't open the file Bill posted so he sent me one I could read. My first reaction in seeing the fascia plumb cut instead of square cut was that it could not be done.Then I read Ken's post about different sized crown and thought, "yeah, that would do it". I can't back any of this up - with words or math - but I think the fascia moulding would have to be wider than the rake moulding, because as you make the plumb cut on the end on the rake moulding, it gets "longer". Just a little "farmer's thinkin'" - jb
*
apparently the rake molding was custom hand planed where it met the eave molding which i didn't notice because they only did it on the ones that came down the rakes to the facia and that didn't happen to be the one i picked up to check the angle.(that was a terrible sentence) the angle is 25 degrees as best as i can determine. i sent an attachment but the file was way to big . ihave pictures and the technology to get them to you . if anyone is interested i will e-mail you two or three pics of the molding, the house,etc. i'd like to thank everyone for spending their valuable time on this problem and i think it will serve many people, ultimately. be well, bill warning-warning warning well i guess it isn't going to let me edit my attachment so be warned that this attachment is 470kb and will take you at least 5-10 minutes unless you have an awesome internet connection!
*
computer dumb , couldn't see it. damn. tell me what i missed.
*Whenever two flat objects , such as crown molding, roof sheathing, 2 x 4's, or whatever, intersect each other, it would always be possible to predict an angle and a bevel that would allow them to join each other.If it happened to be crown mold, the only problem would be that the "details" on the molding would not necesssarily match up. This is a logical consequence of cutting the two pieces on different angles.On Bill Ritchie's house, if both the rake crown and the eave crown were installed at the typical 38/52 degree angle, then the angle and bevel for the rake would be 4 3/4 deg, 47 deg, and the angle and bevel for the eave mold would be 37 3/4 deg, 47 deg.Lay a 2 x 4 about 24" long FLAT on your compound miter box and make these cuts. When you nail them together, make sure that the long pont of the 37 3/4 angle matches the short point of the 4 3/4 angle.Now cut a small block at 44 degrees and "prop up" the piece that represents the rake crown. Then cut another small block at 38 degrees and slide it under the eave crown to see if it fits.You'll enjoy what you see.
*
Here in New England, where I live, if you drive around to most any town and look for the historic section of town you will find this type of roof detail reasonably common. I personally don't think that they had custom trim made up but they did modify it to fit the situation. I went out and pulled off another 16+feet of crown molding on a 44 degree gable end and the angle started out at the top at 22 degrees and continously and evenly changed down to 13 to 14 degrees at the eave! it was hand planed on the site I'm sure, i could see ridges from a nick in the plane blade. unmolested "factory" molding from other parts of the house had an angle of 35 degrees by my calculations and using the same method the new molding measured 37 degrees. I don't have any eave molding to check so possibly that was modified also? something has been lost thru the years and maybe we are in the process of rediscovering it.(all accolades and credit to ken drake, joe fusco, "heavy duty" and everyone else who participated)
eventually, if I had to, I would have figured this out by trial and error for the price of a few feet of molding, but this was so much more instructive and useful. personally I would still like to see a chart for every degree or 1/2 degree or at least the formula(Ken?) I have at least 4 different pitches on my house and rake return shelves with crown molding under them typically are pitched between 2 and 4 degrees. In making furniture or built ins inside a house there are applications for crown molding using this process.
Ken the attachment in my previous message shows the 35/8 and 41/4 moldings sliced, the profile is the same. I don"t know if you or anyone else can read it(let me know anyone who's willing to try) I thought I had figured out how to send pics but then Calvin said he couldn't read it. you know what they say about you have to be smarter than the equiptment you are trying to operate!
and remember...Vinyl is Vile!
*
I couldn't read it but all that says is I might be dumber than a stump! hey that goes somewhere else.
*Bill, I agree with Ken, Jim, etc. that the moldings have to vary in width from rake to eave. What the handmade moldings allowed was tremendous flexibility in doing this gracefully. I tried to do a transition like this with stock crown, wasting half a day on it before I realized the geometric impossibility of it. If you're doing a 90° turn (as you typically are at the rake/eave junction, viewed in the plane of the roof) -- or any other angle -- there's one and only one way to mate the two pieces of crown so that the profiles (and widths for that matter) match up correctly. And if you use that unique way of mating identical crown, one piece or the other will look bad.A simple way to prove this: take the angle you need to wrap with crown, cut two pieces of crown at one-half that angle (factoring in the angle the crown is sprung, an irrelevant detail here), then join them. Place the assembly into the corner and you'll see the one and only solution, and it'll look bad.So you (and the carpenters of yesteryear, all laughing in their graves right now) have to get creative. I have some pieces of crown in the same profile (that classic ogee stuff) but different widths -- essentially the same pattern in different scale -- around here somewhere, maybe I'll try to make a mock-up of something that would wrap the rake-eave corner more gracefully.P.S. I forgot -- like you've figured out, you could also make a better transition for constant-width crown by changing the spring angle -- essentially the same as twisting the rake crown like a ribbon -- to permit better positioning of the eave crown.
*Bill,If we remove the "requirement" that the eave crown mold and the rake crown mold must both be installed at 38 degrees away from plumb, then just about anything is possible.I read your last post and saw that the rake crown angle at the point where it met the eave crown was about 14 degrees. Also you said that the eave crown angle was somewhere between 35 to 37 degrees from what I gathered.I worked out some angles and bevels using 14 degrees as the rake crown mold angle away from plumb, and 36 degrees as the eave crown angle away from plumb. I them cut these angles and bevels on some scrap 2x4's about a foot long and nailed them together. ( Making sure that they were cut so that the short point of the rake mold matches up with the long point of the eave mold, at the top of the cuts. )I then cut two small blocks. One with a 36 degree angle to "prop up" the eave crown mold to its desired angle, and a second one, at 44 degrees, to support the rake crown mold.Both fit perfectly. Moreover, the cuts matched, so it apparently isn't necessary to have two different widths, if you do it this way.Here's the angles and bevels that I worked out. Rake crown......7 3/4 degree angle...46 degree bevelEave crown......13 7/8 degree angle...46 degree bevelTry it on a couple of pieces of 2x4 yourself and see what you think. Better yet, try it on a couple of small pieces of any type of crown mold that you may have, including the stock that you intend to use on the house, the 3 5/8" stuff.I would encourage others following this thread to try it also, so collectively, we might eventually get to the bottom of this challenging problem.
*Does the word Carpenter pop into anyone's mind?Very nice Joe,my compliments.Vince
*In reexamining the thread, I believe I understand it better now than I did before. You Joe, I don't understand, nor do I care to. I can't imagine why you find me so threatening that you need to attack, attack, attack. Why just you?As I've said before, you're getting nowhere with thse personal attacks. Please give it up. Stick to the facts, not the bathroom humor, Breaktime is not the place for it.
*I still don't see any error. As I went on to explain, if the crown are different widths of the same profile, there is some room to match the eave; of course angles other than 45°/45° would be required. Notice that I'm talking about carpentry, not you.You don't point out any errors, you quote me back. This is not helpful.Lay off. Your vendetta or purposeless harassment is not the purpose of the board. If you like, e-mail me with the personal abuse -- I'll trash it and we'll get on with our lives here. I have no idea who "started it" but I know I've not continued it for many many months. You won't "win," so good-bye.Finally, please: M-I-N-U-T-E
*Bill Ritchie,You opened this extremely interesting thread with a very general question. Basically, you asked how to determine the compound cuts for a situation where the crown mold ran down the gable end, at the roof pitch, and then joined to a level piece of crown along the eave.When I asked for more information, regarding roof pitch, crown mold angle away from plumb, etc, you supplied more information. roof pitch on the house = 44 degrees, crown mold angle 38/52, ( 38 degrees away from plumb )I then used sound mathematical formulas to predict the angles and bevels for the the crown mold and the eave mold, for a variety of roof pitches, 3/12, 6/12, 9/12, and finally, 9 3/8 /12, or 38 degrees. The numbers that I posted are accurate if you wished to install ALL the crown at 38 degrees away from plumb. The widths would have to vary however, the rake crown mold always being wider.As the thread developed even further, more and more information became available to us, primarily because we asked you to provide more information. The crown mold running up the rake, if cut square, was 4 1/4" wide, and the crown mold that runs level along the eave, was 3 5/8" wide.At that point, it became apparent to me that both types of crown mold could not be installed at 38 degrees. If you did, the rake crown would have to be 4 9/16" wide, not 4 1/4" for the profiles to match after the proper angle and bevel cuts were made.The next piece of information to come out was that when you removed a piece of the rake crown, it appeared to start at a 22 degree angle at the top, and then was twisted somewhat so that when it got to the point where it was to join the eave mold that it was at an angle of about 13 or 14 degrees. Also you mentioned that the eave crown appeared to be at an angle of about 36 degrees.At that point, I used 14 degrees as the rake crown angle (away from plumb),and 36 degrees as the eave crown angle (away from plumb) and calculated the angles and bevels for that situation, which by the way, are also correct. The interesting thing that surfaced for this example was that if you installed the two crowns at the above angles, there would be no need to use different stock. As ther would only be a difference of less than 1/16" in their width. I was able to download your attachment of the two profiles of crown mold. My question is this. Are you going to have these two different crown molds milled, or are you going to attempt to use a single profile for the rakes and the eaves?If you decide to use a single profile for all, in other words cut all the pieces from the same stock, then you'll have to adjust the angles that are away from plumb similar to what I suggested. It will work for you, but be prepared to see the angle running up the rake as being very steep. 14 degrees and 36 degrees are not the only possiblities, by the way. If you change the angle of the eave mold, then you can also alter the angle of the rake mold, to make it more acceptable to the eye.On the other hand, if you decide to stick with what was on the house, 3 5/8" crown mold on the level eaves, and 4 1/4" crown mold up the rakes, for a 44 degree pitch roof, the correct angles for the compound cuts are as follows....Eave mold angle = 31.86 degrees..eave mold bevel = 46 1/2 degrees.Rake mold angle = 5 degrees...rake mold bevel = 46 1/2 degrees.Install the eave crown mold at 38 degrees away from plumb, and the rake crown mold 32 degrees away from plumb, with respect to the fascia.After you cut the 31.86 degree angle on the 3 5/8" eave mold the resulting cut will be = 3 5/8" x secant 31.86 degrees,= 3.625 x 1.1774 = 4.268"If you now transfer this measurement to the rake crown mold at a 5 degree angle, the rake crown would have to be =4.268' x cosine 5 degrees = 4.268" x .9962 = 4 1/4" which is the rake crown profile that you attached.You'll notice that these numbers are similar to Joe's numbers. His suggestion was eave crown angle = 31 3/4 deg..eave crown bevel = 45 degrake crown angle = 6 deg..rake crown bevel = 45 degHe is assuming that because we are working at square corners, that the bevels MUST be 45 degrees. It certainly would be nice if compound carpentry were this simple, but it isn't. The formulas are a bit more complicated than what he suggests.As home builders, we encounter many situations at 90 degree corners, where two pieces of wood join each other and the bevel is very rarely, if ever, equal to 45 degrees. The first one that comes to mind is 38/52 degree crown molding that you typically run on flat ceilings inside the house.Anyone who has cut this stuff laying FLAT on a compound miter saw knows the angle is 31.62 deg, and that the correct bevel = 33.86 deg. Most miter saws have these angles marked out on them these days. Obviously, 45 degree bevels do not work at these 90 degree corners.Another example that comes to mind is when we install fascia to rafter tails that are CUT SQUARE, on a hip roof. If the roof pitch = 6/12 for example, the correct angle to cut the fascia is 24 degrees, the bevel = 39 1/4 deg, where the fascia join at the hip.If the roof pitch were 12/12, the angle changes to 35 1/4 deg, and the bevel to 30 degrees. These are also angles when the fascia is laid FLAT, typically using a circular saw to make the cuts. A specific set of formulas governs this situation, and can predict the correct angle and bevel for any roof pitch. Once again, we are working with compound angles at 90 degree corners. The bevels are NOT 45 degrees, and moreover, no matter what the roof pitch is, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the bevel to be 45 degrees.The same is true when you run crown molding inside a house at a 90 degree square corner. The mathematical formulas that govern this situation make it IMPOSSIBLE for the bevels to be 45 degrees, unless you nail it flat to the walls as you would when running baseboard, in which case it could hardly be called "crown" mold.The situation that we have on you house, Bill, is similar, and it is not sound mathematical logic, to assume that just because we, once again, are working at a 90 degree corner, that the bevels must be 45 degrees. If you cut the angles and bevels that Joe suggests, you are going to find that the rake crown will run away from the wall at about a 3 degree angle, regardless of the model that he posted, opening up a small gap at all the outside corners when you pull it into the fascia, which of couse you could caulk, but why not just cut the correct bevels, at 46 1/2 degrees, and let them fit right?I have more information to share regarding this very interesting topic, and eventually will post the formulas so that others can use them. I'm not doing it now, as the formulas require explanation because of the number of variables involved.In the meantime, if you have other pitches on your house, just post them along with all the necessary information, and I'll give you my suggestions for angle and bevel cuts, if you would like.And thanks once again for posting your problem. Before everything is said and done here, I believe we will collectively recover something that has
...[Message truncated]
*Mr. Ritchie, if you've waded through the Wizard of Oz's masturbatory smoke and mirrors (the movie is on tonight & reminded me of the wizard), I think you'll see that most everyone here actually agrees. It just never had to get so obfuscated (ob-fusco-ated?).Here goes: IF both crown are sprung the same from plumb, the correct miter is the arctangent of the width of the crown you are cutting divided by the other crown width. Bevel cut is 45° (half of a 90° corner). That's it.Another solution: The eave angle produced by two widths of crown is the arccosine of the rake crown width divided by the eave crown width.Or: The eave crown width needed to match a given rake crown and angle is the rake crown width divided by the cosine of the rake angle.The spring angle, the hypoteneuse, and all else are not relevant. Keep it simple.The results given by others above may look different because they are intended to allow cutting the crown "on the flat," as opposed to propped up against the fence at the correct spring angle. All this requires is piping the bevel and miter angles through another formula.If you are/were a fanatic about matching the trim, you could have the exact width needed custom milled for you, or do it yourself. Or if you choose to deviate from the eave trim's intended spring angle, or twist the trim, or otherwise fool around as Ken adventurously suggests (I assume he did his math right!), a simple calculation will tell you whatever you need to know. Even if I goofed somewhere here, I am certain these calcs are very close to he truth.Hope this helps. If you'd like know how I derived these formulas, just ask. No, better yet, ask Ken!
*Put up or shut up, Joe. You lose.
* bozo the barrister,
Joseph Fusco <img
*Now, Joe, I never said your result was wrong or right, just that it was unnecessary to spend so much time and trouble getting to it. and trying to show off along the way ("obfuscation"), when we're just talking basic high school trig. Your solution is much harder to understand than it need be, perhaps because you reached it by an intuitive rather than trigonometric approach. I concede the problem looks difficult at first, but once conceptualized properly it is easy, like cutting regular 2-dimensional crown.I'll help you out here: you slipped up, Bill's rake moulding is actually 3 5/8" ... so the eave molding would need to be just over 5" to preserve the spring angle. We only have 4 1/4", so the spring angle won't be preserved at this rake angle -- we'll have to increase it to get the assembly to fit. In fact, using my work above I could predict that angle quickly.The miter and bevel cuts, however, will still be correctly predicted by my calcs (assuming no oversights). Easy, right?Bill long ago asked for formulas relating the different trim to each other and I gave them to him. The problem is quite interesting, and I hope we arrive at definitive solutions.And the name-calling ... get a grip, it's pathetic. You're killing me, really. What it suggests is that you can't win this discussion on the merits. Again, you have yet to point out even one error. If everyone's work is so terrible, please explain. Can you? Well, you've already answered that.Later.
*
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG HERE!
PEACE,Bill
*
Yes, we can Bill. My only fault here, correct me if I'm wrong, was that I expressed my opinion as to a solution... Oh yeah, and that I acknowledged Fusco exists, usually everyone just ignores him. But it's useful to call the Wizard on his grandiose claims now and then, if only to remind him. I'm done.
Any feedback on the formulas? I'm was actually really pleased when it started to make sense to me.
* Bill,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*Mmmm... I took the #'s from a post other than Bill's that had transposed them. But this is trivial: the math still holds, although the outcome re eave spring angle is reversed. Capische?I thought about this problem for a while about this problem and can try to explain anything you have questions about.
*barrister,
Joseph FuscoView Image"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*5.9 is not the "wrong answer." It is the answer that WOULD be needed IF one were to preserve the spring angle, as you did not and Bill's crown widths can not. I'm not saying the spring angle must be maintained, but that it is important to start off with the right approach. As Bill originally inquired waaaay back in post #3: "I know I can be successful doing this by trial and error, but it would be so much nicer to either have a chart or know the math formula or both."As I said, "if you choose to deviate from the eave trim's intended spring angle ... a simple calculation will tell you whatever you need to know." I did not expound that calculation. No time to do so now, got work to do, but I'll give it a shot later.Gotcha thinking, though, eh? I see barely six hours between your posts for sleep.
* barrister,
Joseph Fusco View Image
* Ken,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*Bill Ritchie,In my last post, I explained in some detail, situations that commonly occur in framing carpentry at 90 degree corners where the proper bevel needed to join the two pieces of wood is not necessarily 45 degrees. Moreover, in most situations, the bevel CANNOT ever be 45 degrees. It must either be less than, or greater than 45 degrees.I gave two examples that immediately came to mind. The first, being crown molding for the interior of houses with flat ceilings, at 90 degree corners. Not only is the bevel not equal to 45 degrees at these 90 degree corners, but it can NEVER be 45 degrees unless you nail it flat to the wall, as with baseboard, in which case it could hardly be called crown molding.The second example involved fascia being nailed to rafter tails that were cut square to the tails, on a hip roof, at 90 degree corners. Once again, the bevel needed to cut the fascia at these joineries, is always less than 45 degrees, and once again, can NEVER be 45 degrees, unless the roof is FLAT, which is a "trivial case", as we call it in the mathematical world.Your rake molding to eave molding junction falls into this same general category of problems. The pieces of wood being used at these junctions ARE NOT PLUMB, and hence, cannot be viewed "in plan", which normally provides us with the correct bevels for these situations, as with jack rafter bevels for either a single pitch roof ( 45 degrees), or a split pitch roof. This is what is leading both Andrew and Joe astray. The interesting thing that has surfaced in this problem is that whenever the roof pitch is less than the crown molding angle at the eave, away from plumb, then the bevel MUST be less than 45 degrees, REGARDLESS of the angle away from plumb, of the rake crown molding.If the roof pitch is greater than the eave crown molding angle, away from plumb, then the bevel MUST be greater than 45 degrees, REGARDLESS of the rake crown molding angle.So what happens when the roof pitch is equal to the eave crown molding angle? Say 38 degrees, or whatever?Then bevel is equal to 45 degrees, and moreover, it will ALWAYS be equal to 45 degrees in this situation, REGARDLESS of the angle of the rake crown molding, which I found interesting.In the present case that we are working on with your house, the roof pitch, 44 degrees, is geater than the eave crown molding angle, so the bevel will indeed be greater than 45 degrees. If you choose the bevel to be 45 degrees, then the the rake crown molding will "run away from the house" when you join it, and when you pull it back in, it will open a gap on the outside corners of the molding. This, by the way, is why I used 2X stock when I "mock up" models for these situations to check the accuracy of my calculations. It's easy to deceive yourself into believing that you have correct solutions to a problem using material of lesser width, as the openings on 1X stock will be half as small as would occur on 2X, and you can contribute this small opening to the fact that you may not have made the walls of your model perfectly square.What has really been lost in this thread, is why the rake mold is 4 1/4" when the eave mold is 3 5/8". This is not a "magical combination" that a person must know to be able to run crown mold in this situation. These measurements RESULT from the angles that you choose to put the eave crown molding and the rake crown molding, away from plumb. As I mentioned earlier, if you chose to make both the eave crown angle and the rake crown angle the same,typical 38 degrees, then the rake crown would be 4 9/16" wide in order for it to work with the eave crown molding profile. The framers of your home chose to make the rake crown mold to be equal to 4 1/4 " because of the angles which they chose to run it up the rake. Why they chose these angles is perhaps the topic of a new thread.That's enough said for tonight Bill. I have a lot more to offer on this topic, including formulas, if you can hang in their for a little bit. In the meantime, post any problems that you come up with, and we, your friends at BREAKTIME, will help, if we can. And please try to ignore all the negative crap that tends to be associated with some of these threads whenever Joe decides to jump down someone's throat, like Andrew, Ed Williams, myself, and MANY OTHERS over the years for no good reason. We, I can assure you, are not JERKS, BOZOS, and other childish names that he chooses to refer to us as. WE are, on the other hand, educated people, dedicated to our work, and join you here at BREAKTIME in an effort to help you with solutions to your problems.
* Ken,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*
you know, I had such a clear picture in m head but I did a poor job of transmitting it to you good people via the written word. since I have lived in this house it hasn't had eave moldings so ii don't know what size they were. before I ever jumped into this chat room I had done a lot of looking around the web, in my collection of woodworking books, and in bookstores without really finding an answer but one of the few helpful hints I got was a letter to the editor or something in some magazine from someone who said he had done this and to be successful you had to use the two different sizes of crown molding. I pesonally don't care whether they are the same or different or at what angle they sit out from vertical.(although using the angle the molding came with saves time and energy if you don't have to change it) today I went up on the staging to work out this angle thing. I started with Joe's calculations cause it was easier to cut the miter (my sliding compound miter saw only goes to 45 degrees on miters) well, the angle were close but the miter was open on the outside! so I recut it with shims under the cut end next to the blade, adding formica until I got it right(it took 3/8") and when I measured the angle it was 46 1/2 degrees! the profile was close but not "right" so I modified the angles slightly and ended up with 30 degrees on the eave and 7 degrees on the rake.with only minor sanding the whole body of the molding matches up very well. the top of eave molding is maybe a quarter of an inch below the top of the eave molding but at the wide point of the triangular top they line up and stay together right to the bottom. the drip edge will cover the top easily and the only real problem is exposed end grain on the eave molding at the lower rectangular corner where the rake molding comes in at the roof angle. I have included an attachment that illustrates the problem. I don't believe there is a way to change the angles so that this situation goes away. I believe that one way that the old carpenters got around this was by cutting the bottom of the rake molding so that it sat on top of the rake return shelf and the lower outside corner of the eave molding formed a corner with the rake return shelf which is already mitered to the facia. unfortunately they didn't do that on my house and I just copied their rake return dimensions.it's only a triangular piece of end grain from 0 to 5/8" or so. I could cut a little return for it and glue it on(who knows how long that would last)or I could ignore it cause you probably can"t see it from the ground anyway.
Ken
I tried to use your angles to do it with 4 1/4 on the rake and the eave but it didn't work out at all. the profiles just didn't line up worth a damn. I also tried changing the angle that it projected out but making it a smaller angle didn't seem like it was doing anything good. I believe that the rake moldings were planed to a lower angle was because they originally formed the sides of the wooden gutter that was originally on the house. I mentioned that before but the connection just occured to me. I don't know that for a fact but the old man next door tells me that it used to have wooden gutters and I know that they did that.
on nov. 11 "heavy duty" had a suggestion to make a u shaped miter box and cut the molding the way that it sits . well I never did get around to trying that but I wouldn't be suprised if it worked
In a previous note on nov. 13 I mentioned that the angles were 30 something and under 10 degrees, well that ended up being close(not close eough but...). those approximations came from me fooling around with the joint before I stumbled into this place. you all helped me to understand the process, if not the formula. if my words are to unclear and you don't understand let me know and I'll draw a picture in paint it's pretty cool and easy. it's very late, I'm rambling and bed is calling
be well, Bill
*
Bill,
Joseph Fusco
View Image
"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth."
Socrates
*
Well last night it was getting dark, I had been fighting with two eight foot boards, one fussy corner joint etc. and I thought I had it. This morning in the warm morning sun(today was a 10 for mass. in late nov., sunny and mid 60's) I looked at it with a more critical eye. so I worried over it and ended up with the original 6 degree and 31 3/4 degree angles that I started out with but I increased the miter angle to 47 degrees. the joint looks good, the exposed end grain has been reduced to a right triangle 1/4" by 1/4" at the 90 degree corner. the eave molding is only 1/8" lower than the rake and the long point of the rake molding stuck down 1/8" I cut it even with the bottom of the eave molding. it's not perfect but you can't see it from the ground. all things considered, I am very happy with it. I had to sand the curves minimally and I believe that I probably reduced the projection of the molding by a few degrees to make the whole thing work. I am going to see if a friend of mine can post pics of this in the next week or so. Bill
*Bill,Let's face it, perfection here is practically impossible. You are at the point where a little fine tuning with a plane and some sandpaper, a little filler will take it at least as well as the old craftsmen had it when the house was first built. They didn't have CM4's, probably didn't know trig, just worked these things out as they went, and used woodworking skill to make everything come out as best as possible. At least you got to the point of personal satisfaction without anyone killing anyone (so far) over it!MD
*
Bill,
Joseph Fusco
View Image
*
Why not run the angle of your crown on the eave perpendicular to the roof sheathing and fill in behind the crown to form a square facia section under the crown and simply cut the crown upside down and backwards,too easy I Quess?
brisketbean
*I just got an e-mail from someone in the trade who has some history and answers on this subject so I'll just quote him "The only way to do this is, as you mentioned, with two pieces of molding with different profiles. One is derived from the other; it's easier to see than describe, so I won't try, but if you have access to 'The Encyclopedia of Furniture Making' by Ernest Joyce, you will see a clear description and several diagrams on page 378. ... I used to work in millwork shops. It wasn't a detail commonto our area, but you may find milwork shops in your area have matching cutters for 'standard' and 'rake' profiles. In the 'old' days, the carp would just figure out the section of the rake, and make enough on siteto do the job, using a collection of wooden 'hollow' and 'round' planes, or whatever else he had in his toolbox. This is harder than it sounds; the intersection of a curved and straight moulding is fussier. Anyway, I hope that helpsI think the reason that the technique isn't still in common use is: say you are a millwork shop, and you have a set of knives for a crown profile. Someone builds a house in a certain way, which requires knives for a certain rake profile. Then the next guy picks a different roof pitch, and the shop requires a new rake profile, etc., etc. It wasn't that big a deal for the pre-industrial guy and his 'match set' of planes, but it's a pain for a machineshop. I think that is one factor why you don't see it that much in modern construction, but that's just my opinion.Anyway, to my knowledge, it is impossible to perfectly join those two pieces of wood in that situation, no matter how good your trig. You need two different profiles. The bottom line is, all these formulas are wishful thinking." Someone out there has this book, want to put the article online? This explanation makes a lot of sense to me. Bill EXPERIENCE IS THE RESULT OF BAD JUDGEMENT
*There is an article in "Fine Homebuilding On Frame Carpentry"@1990 that also appeared in FHB August 1987 by Scott McBride that dwells on this subject.He also gives a couple of ways to do it,but as Bill has confirmed none perfect.He mentions the same way that Brisketbean offered but explains while fine for low pitched roofs it flattens out on steeper roofs contrary to its (crown) original intent.He also advises the different sizes to attempt a match.There is also a brief dicussion on how to develop the rake crown profile from that at the eaves.My own opinion of this is it looks good from here, nail it.
*
Bill Ritchie,
My compound miter saw is designed so that it can cut both angles and bevels up to 48 degrees. It is new and in very good condition. It stays at home, not brought to the job site, to be trashed out, and is calibrated to cut as precisely as possible. Whenever I post information regarding angle and bevel carpentry, I always mock up models using it to test the accuracy of the mathematical information that I post, as I must live with what I say here at BREAKTIME, for eternity. 2X material is a good choice when modeling, as it
And, I don't let myself be satisfied with something that is "pretty close". If I notice any opening, even slight, I question my formulas.
Whenever two pieces of wood ( planes ) intersect each other, plywood, 2 X 4's, 1 X 4's, crown mold, OR WHATEVER, in space, REGARDLESS of the angles and slopes ( pitches ) involved, the correct angle and bevel to make these joineries is predictable by mathematical formula. It is complicated at times, as with the situation in this thread, but definitely possible.
I disagree with some of the recent posts in this thread by Mad Dog, and Joe Fusco.
Obviously, the "old timers" didn't have CM4'S ( Construction Master Calculators-IV ). It's a fairly new tool. It may surprise both of these persons to know that I don't use this tool to predict angle and bevel carpentry. I use mathematical formulas that apply to these situations. To do this, you must be able to draw, and think, in three dimensional space and apply the correct formulas.
I take exception to Mad Dog's statement, that (the old timers), they "probably didn't know trig, they just worked things out as they went." Trigonometry, was a very important studied subject back then, and unfortunately, today's carpenters can barely spell the word, no less use it.
If you use a word such as "secant" of an angle, today's carpenters totally freak. Back then, that was not necessarily the case.
To suggest that the "old timers", "just worked things out as they went", is a contradition to others ( yourself, included) that feel that something has been lost over the years, as you, yourself, mentioned in a previous thread.
So what were the "old time" carpenters?
A bunch of wood hackers?, or did they know something? Certainly, you can't write them off as people that "just worked things out as they went along", and agree at the same time, that "something has been lost over the years".
And Joe Fusco's statement, suggesting, that "you did what most carpenters do, you overcut the bevels to allow the fronts of the crowns,(which is the important part) to close tightly" suggesting that the mathematical information that he posted in this thread is accurate, is not true. You over cut, because, because the bevels, cannot possibly be 45 degrees as Joe suggets.
If the roof pitch is greater than the crown mold angle, away from plumb, at the eave, then the bevels involved at the joineries, as in your situation ( 44 degree roof pitch), will always be greater than 45 degrees, REGARDLESS of the rake crown mold angle. The information that he posted earlier in this thread is not valid, and if you wish to test it out, apply his simplistic formulas to a situation where the roof pitch is 64 degrees, instead of 44 degrees. Let the eave molding lie at 38 degree,. as he suggests, away from plumb ( as we can can all agree on,), then test to see if 45 degree bevels can possibly work. This problem, as I stated in my last post, is one that can not be solved in 2-dimensional space. "plan views" are not applicable to these situations.
His statement that "I'm glad that my numbers proved helpful to you", implies that the imformation that he has posted in this thread is accurate.
It isn't.
In its simplist form, it can only be labeled as misinformation, rather than information, and quite frankly, should be deleted from this thread, along with his verbal attacks on fine peopole like Andrew.
*It ain't over 'til it's over; but I've posted my best shot on the leaner "andrew d. Lets try it again. . ." thread.Don't worry, we'll get something good out of this baloney and then Taunton will shower money on us for it.Oh sh*t, they already own the posts. Oh well. :)And on secant -- I'd forgotten that one! -- it is the reciprocal of the cosine, or 1/cosine, so Ken and I are actually on the same page there.
*I wonder what kind of e-mail you guys are getting.
*F*ck it, nail it
*
Whatever, Ken, I guess you analyzed the crap out of my very
broad and generalized statement. While I believe you in
that the science of triangles (trigonometry) may have been a
lot more important back in the old days, you make it seem
like the carpenters of yesteryear were regular mathematical
geniuses. What a joke. How many times have you guys torn
out some walls and found old carpenter math, and they are
frieking ADDING numbers like 12+24, stuff like that.
At any rate, I didn't think it mattered enough in passing
mention to be pounded to death by your obviously superior
knowledge of history, math and language, but OK.
What I meant about "working things out as they went" was
that good carpenters used their planes, chisels and coping
saws to give the illusion that everything worked out
perfectly. I seriously doubt that Bill's original trim was
perfect, but it may have looked that way.
And finally, you'll have to do a lot more convincing than
just saying stuff like using 2x4 material for mockups proves
that the crown, with its curves, ridges and irregular
shapes, will match up just because you think it
mathematically will, "NO MATTER WHAT THE ANGLES".
Thanks for pointing out the mystery that the CM4 is a
"relatively new tool", I thought maybe it had been around at
least a couple centuries. Good thing you are there for
accuracy's sake.
And right on, JIM L, I agree 100%: "F*ck it, nail it"
Mad Dog
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*
Andrew,
I just finished reading the information and formulas that you posted on the main board. I commend you for the amount of energy that you have put into this problem, but I would ask that you reconsider your formulas.
If your formulas were correct, then they should work for ANY roof pitch, not just 44 degrees, true?
So why not take a little time and test them out for a variety of roof pitches, say, 3/12 ( 14.04 degrees ), 6/12 (26.56 degrees ), 9/12 ( 36.87 degrees ), 9 3/8 /12 ( 38 degrees) and let's thrown a really steep one in, say 64 degrees for the roof pitch ( about 24 5/8 /12 ). You can use 1 X 4, 2 X 4, or landscape timbers if you choose. If you cut the correct angle and bevel on the stock, when you prop up the eave crown at 38 degrees, the rake crown should swing up to the the roof pitch, and at the same time, the two pieces must be square to each other. After you nail the pieces together use a framing square to see if they are.
In any of the models, if your saw is slightly off, then when you cut the bevels it will result in them being slightly out of square when you join them, but not a whole lot, which is what you are going to see happen if you build a model for 3/12 or 6/12 and try to cut 45 degree bevels.
The unfortunate thing that has occured in this thread is that the roof pitch on Bill's house, 44 degrees, was close to the eave crown mold angle away from plumb. This resulted in the bevels being close to 45 degrees, but as I mentioned, the bevels would always be greater than 45 when the roof pitch exceeds the eave mold angle away from plumb.
In the example that I worked out for him, I suggested that he set the eave mold at 38 deg away from plumb, and the rake mold, 32 degrees away from plumb. If he did this, he would have found the bevel to be 46 1/2 degrees, the eave crown mold angle = 31.86, and the rake mold angle = 5 degrees.
Apparently, he ran the molding at slightly different angles away from plumb, resulting in sligthly different angles for compound cuts. This would be expected. But notice that he found that 45 degrees was not enough bevel so he cut at 47 degrees.
You and Joe attribute this to the building being a little out of square. That simply is not true. Once again, assuming that the angle that he set the eave crown mold was less that 44 degrees, then no matter what angle he ran the rake mold crown at, the bevel will always be more than 45 degrees. And once again, I'm talking about making the cuts with the mold laying flat on the chop saw.
To simplify things, let's agree to always set both the eave mold and the rake mold at the standard 38 degrees away from plumb.
Here's what I believe are the correct angles and bevels for these roof pitches.
3/12 roof pitch.....37 3/4 deg bevel..eave mold angle = 35.5 deg..rake mold angle = 19.33
6/12 roof pitch...41 1/2 deg bevel..eave mold angle = 37 1/2 deg...rake mold angle = 9 deg.
9/12 roof pitch...44.65 deg bevel..eave mold angle = 38 deg..rake mold angle = 1 degree.
9 3/8 /12 (38 deg)..45 degree bevel...eave mold angle = 38 deg...rake mold angle = 0 deg.
24 5/8 /12 roof pitch (64 degrees)..bevel = 52 3/4 degrees...eave mold angle = 35 deg...rake mold angle = 21 deg.
I've taken the time to double check my formulas by building models for all of them except 6/12. I would encourage you to try several of them yourself. It will soon become apparent to you that the bevel cannot possibly be 45 degrees for every case.
As a matter of fact, the only time that it CAN be 45 degrees is when the roof pitch matches the eave crown mold angle away from plumb. Regardless of the angle you set the rake crown away from plumb in this case, the bevel will always remain at 45 degrees. Only the angles for the compound cuts will change will change.
I also believe you said something in your post about "the bevels are always 45 degrees just like they are when cutting crown mold for the interior of a house at a 90 degree corner and a flat ceiling". All of the discussion in this thread is for cutting the crown mold when it is laying FLAT on the table of the compound miter saw. The correct angle and bevel for cutting standard 38/52 crown mold is 31.62 angle, and 33.86 bevel. Regardless of the angle that the crown mold makes with the ceiling, the bevel can not ever be 45 degrees in this situation ( 90 degree corner). It will always be less than 45 degrees.
*Mad Dog,I apologize for offending you with my post. It really wasn't my intention.I've got two rules. Don't drink and drive, and don't drink and post. I violated the second one in posting that message. Obviously, I went overboard, in more ways than one, and said a lot of things that didn't and shouldn't have been said.I'll be posting some formulas soon regarding this subject. I'm working on putting them in simplest form, so they don't appear so complicated.I'm aware of the profile problem with the two different size crowns. I suggested that he put the eave crwon at 38 degress and the rake crown at 32 degrees so that they would match up. I'm not absolutely sure that the profiles will match up perfectly, but since the length of the cut would be the same on both, it seems like they would.Bill has mentioned that there are other roof pitches involved on the house besides 44 degrees. If he keeps the eave crown at approximately 38 degrees, or something close to it, then he'll have to change the rake crown angle for each new pitch, otherwise the profiles won't match. I'm interested in finding out what the other pitches are, and if he intends to use the same types of molding at all the gable ends.I'm curious that he hasn't mentioned the compound cut at the top of the rake mold where the two rake pieces join. This cut is easier to understand, and I'll post a formula for it soon, also.
*See the attachment for the traditional way of approaching rake mouldings (illustration 5). The reference is Ernest Joyce, "Encyclopedia of Furnituremaking", but I'm sure any old joinery text will show the same. Bottom line is, there is no mathematical way to get a perfect joint in this situation with two mouldings with the same profile; you must have two profiles.
*
ODDS AND ENDS
JOE- I didn't overcut my miters they needed to be 47+/- degrees. when I laid the boards up there just touching at 45 degrees they were visibly open on the outside, but when I cut them to 47 degrees they just slid right into each other. My corners were "almost perfect" with respect to square and the facia was within a degree of being plum. A joint that only touches at the outside corner is a poor joint.
KEN- I cut my rake moldings at the top at 40 degrees on the miter and 22+ degrees on the bevel. I am not going to do any more this year on my house it's getting cold and my wife complains about the smell when I finish the wood in the garage(under our bedroom) I have to rip apart the trim to figure out what the pitch is. I can probably extrapolate from all the numbers that you threw up, or maybe we will talk next year. thank you so much for all your efforts.
If anyone has those articles from FHB maybe you could reprint them here, or would that cut into FHB's take on the back issues?
I took before and after sanding pics today and I will take some after the finish is on and they are back up. I use Sikkens Cetol 1 and Cetol 23+ to stain and protect them . Anyone have any comments good or bad about these products?
This was certainly an entertaining way to get information!
later, Bill
*
Adrian,
Joseph Fusco
View Image
"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth."
Socrates
* Bill,
Joseph FuscoView Image"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*Mad Dog, man, those "12+24" hirogliphics are PLUMBERS scratchin's - carpenters try to stay in single digits!
* Ken,
Joseph FuscoView Image"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*Joe,I just want to make a quick post, as we have a bunch of company visiting for the weekend. First of all, I hope that you, your family, and your friends, had an enjoyable Thanksgiving Day, as well as all of the fine people here at Breaktime, and their families and friends.I'll take a closer look at your drawings as soon as possible, and comment.In the meantime, I have found that it always is possible to to use use a single profile for BOTH the crown mold at the eave, and the crown mold up the rake, if you are willing to live with certain angles away from plumb for the crown molds.. Moreover, their are ENDLESS COMBINATIONS of angles to accomplish this for any given roof pitch, it's just a matter of choosing the combination of angles that the crown molds are run at that you can live with the best, as they are not necessarily always going to be 38 degrees, away from plumb (AFP). But something to ponder for you and others reading this post, if you would in the meantime, is, when does crown molding look "GOOD" and when does is not look good, referring to the angles that the crown molding ( regardless of its profile ) is run at in situations like this.For example, if the eave crown angle away from plumb, was 24 degrees, and the rake crown molding away from plumb, was 20 degrees, could you visually "live with it"? Or are those angles to steep for crown molding, visually? Try to imagine what it would look like along the eave, and up the rake, and comment on that question, if you will. If you feel comfortable with this combination of angles, then you can run the crown mold for certain roof pitches with a single profile, and the joints, and profiles, will match up perfectly.I'll explain this soon, when time is available on this busy weekend, and post formulas which apply, which by the way, are fairly simple, compared to those that require 2 different profiles.
* Ken,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999."Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*
I received another e-mail from a furniture maker with a reference on this subject. Modern Practical Joinery by George Ellis ISBN 0-85442-039-8 Stobart Davies; British Library classification cost 15 pounds UK. He also endorses the info in Joyce's book previously mentioned by another woodworker. also on the previous reference when I quoted him ther was a typo, it should say..."easier than it looks to cut a few feet of rake molding with hand planes.(not harder)
*Hand Planes!I love it!
*
Crazy turns in crown and other moldings....Last week I had to run some bed molding around an enclosed wainscotted ceiling that followed a pitch of about 2 1/2 to 12....So as I usually do, I let my head have some "shower" time so as to hopefully visualise the solution to the all not being 90 degree....
Well "my" final solution lay in "just doing it"....The end results looked good and now that I see the huge discussion here, I think I know why it went together....Changing the nailed on angles to get all close enough worked....
Ken, Thanks for the math ideas, as always you are the father of volleyball and construction math. Andrew, thanks for giving it a shot and "smokin" Joe...I checked out your website for the roof cutting lore and now see how and where you are coming from...You definitly have as much passion for learning and sharing your construction knowledge as you have for showing all how great an online conquerer you could be if their were awards givin for such..One thing you must understand is you definitely do things differently than at least some of us. The idea of cutting a roof to a specific ridge height is not very common in my experience up here though I fully understand the use and need for it in cetain circumstances...And thank God I have learned to be entertained by the huge ego battles that explode from times when someone differs from you or sets you off some how...
And Bill, great subject! I bet you didn't know this thread would be so
b HOT !!!!
I'd love to see this subject written up in an article again with all methods discussed, graghics, math, tables, and color pictures....
And lastly, I had a great turkey day, hope it was good to all of you.
aj
*AJ, I've missed your sobering presence! What's up?
*Speaking of sobering, I have been online for a few hours I guess (slow reader) and am headed out for soup and an Indian Pale Ale made by one of our local brew pubs....I so enjoyed this thread for both the subject discussion and for watching the pay for view "bout." You're amazingly good on your feet Andrew as I don't think amokin Joe even nicked you till he finally drove down to Virginia and caught you from the backside at your computer terminal...All in fun I hope but I definitely see the day when someone says, "your moma wears army boots."...then next day NBC news is telling us all about the dangers of overheated contractor yak on the net!Keep up the great posts and do your best to avoid and ignore the call the the ring.near the stream,aj
*Oh, and I guess I didn't say but I...we have been very very busy....Can't even return all the calls let alone do estimates or think of taking on work for now...On top of having too much work this was (is) the year that I thought it would be nice to head off to other parts of the globe for a break...I am thinking down under, maybe San Francisco and on to New Zealand with an island stop here and there....Anyone need an all around builder in the warm pacific areas?email ajnear the stream
*Bill Ritchie, Breaktimers, followers of this thread,Sometime soon, I will post further information regarding this subject, so please stay tuned, for formulas and other information about this topic.
*
i'm restoring an old carriage house and am in the process of replacing all the old roof trim(mostly rotten)with cedar rakes, facia and soffits.this house has three additions and rooflines going everywhere. there is over 200 feet of crown molding(double that to include the bed moldings under the soffits and rakes)multiple pitches and everything is going to be stained! i need tight joints (no filler) how do i determine the compound angle where the rake crown molding meets the eave crown molding? the molding follows the roofline not under the rake return shelf. is there a chart for different pitches( that would be wonderful) or at least a formula? everything i've read at this and other sites is for interior flat ceilings. this is a labor of love (it's my house) and any assistance would be greatly appreciated.