That is what an electrician stated on a recent episode of TOH for a project last year, or the year before last. This was during the renovation with complete access to stud and joist cavities. He said to install each can it was $125. I’m hoping this included materials (other than the can), like wiring, etc., but the electrician didn’t make that clear.
Now I understand how some small residential electrical subs can hire 5-10 laborers (who don’t speak English) are easily taken to the task of installing the bulk of the electrical in track homes.
Replies
Your making way too much out of this.
The light also needs to be switched (possibly at multiple locations) and fed from a circuit.
Good cans, trim and bilbs are included.
That's what I am told is a good guide for doing my own estimating on the electrical parts of the bid.
$125.00 a point. Switch, light, outlet............
Eric
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Eric, this did not include the can. The can was $200 alone. LOL
I don't think that is very far out of line, at least for estimating purposes I figure $100 per can
Sounds about right
$100 can
$25 per switch or receptical
so you are mad that someone In our industry tries to actually make a decent living busting his a$$?
Nice.
how about you tellall your customers that you are just worth $10 or $15 an hour.
why should tradesman actually make a decent living, huh?
a$$hole.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Golly Jeff ... an attitude like this after a Steelers win ... what happens when they lose?
But I agree with you on this one.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
so you are mad that someone In our industry tries to actually make a decent living busting his a$$?
Mad? No. I want Americans in the trade to make money. I just find the wholesaling of the labor in unlicensed form performing 95% of the work to be not in line with the fees being charged. For instance, if I hired someone to come do my basement, I'd make sure everyone was licensed as such since I'd be paying for that expectation.
On the other hand, if I'm paying $125/can not including the can and I get unlicensed labor doing most of the work then I would have a problem. Jeff, I do not see how I am being an a$$hole in this. I think you have taken my words out of context. I am more than willing to pay a trained, licensed tradesman, but not an questionable-skilled, unlicensed, potentially illegal.
And for the record, I work for a company that felt a lot of people formerly in my company were not worth $10-15/hour, and as such out-sourced to overseas workcenters where the wages are $2/hour and lower.
Four years ago a builder was charging $300 per device to the homeowner. Didn't matter if it was a switch, can, TV or phone.
I know for a fact the builder mark up was a minimum of 100%. That means the sparky was probably somewhere around $100 to $150 four years ago.
Two years ago another builder charged homeowners $600 for a basic bypass humidifier. Same markup minimums.
Another builder dumped the "high priced" union sparky at $135 an opening to hire eastern Europeans at $35 an opening. Price of the home didn't go down, though. Kinda hard to compete against that- right? Probably less than $10 an hour, no OT or benefits.
Soooo... who is the a$$hole hiring all the illegal labor????
Not too many of my fellow mechanical tradesmen are illegals... yet... can't speak for the drywallers, framers, roofers and masons, though...
Edited 1/22/2006 11:21 pm ET by danski0224
On our kitchen and bath remodels we charge $100 per can including the can, if you want a fancy eye ball style or something it is more.
My friend the electrician who does new construction charges $35 a box plus the service so I imagine his can lights work out to about $80 each.
But hey, it you think it is so over priced why not become a can light specialist in your area and charge $100. You will give everyone a deal and become rich at the same time. DanT
$125/ can is the norm for Chicago area--unless you go low voltage or go with the mini cans.
Man, I guess i'm pricing my electrical all wrong. Good to know that alot of you guys are getting what you are for cans. Some things I still dont know how to price.
All, I think I may have expressed something ineffectively. First, the electrician that is licensed as such is worth their time and money. I've never questioned this for a skilled, licensed tradesmen. The $125/can did not include the can, as it was costing $200/can.
I posted this out of inquiry, because from observations personal to me I see about one licensed electrician in a sub company and many, many semi-skilled unlicensed laborers doing 95% of the work. If I were to hire a licensed AND skilled tradesman, I have no problem paying for that work. But I wondered if the builder, and the potential homeowner, was being charged as if a licensed and skilled electrician (or any regulated tradesman), but 95% of the work wasn't being done by one.
So what you're saying is that either every licensed electrical contractor should be a one-man operation, so that 100% of the work is being done by a "licensed tradesman", or that every licensed electrical contractor should only employ other "licensed tradesmen".
If either of those situations were the case, you'd be paying $300 per can instead of $125. Without the "low-priced labor" to handle the grunt work (and yes, nailing up and wiring cans is a task than can be taught to virtually anyone in a very shoud period of time- no disrespect meant to the electrical contractors out there, but it's not high on the list of "complex electrical tasks"), the prices would be much higher. Why do you think union labor projects are so expensive? It's because even the simplest of tasks (gathering parts, etc), is being done by an electrician making $40/hour plus benefits- there's only so many apprentices on the jobsite, and even those guys are making decent $$.
By no means am I supporting the use of "illegal labor", but at the same time, it's not right to make a blanket statement that just because the labor isn't necessarily highly-paid and English-speaking it's therefore illegal.
Bob
I don't know about other states, but here in Alaska, ALL electrical work has to be done either by a journeyman or card-carrying apprentice/trainee. One can't hire just any 'ol doofus even to drill holes or cary wire....definitely not to twist any wires or install any devices or equipment.
Red Dog
If either of those situations were the case, you'd be paying $300 per can instead of $125. Without the "low-priced labor" to handle the grunt work (and yes, nailing up and wiring cans is a task than can be taught to virtually anyone in a very shoud period of time- no disrespect meant to the electrical contractors out there, but it's not high on the list of "complex electrical tasks"), the prices would be much higher. Why do you think union labor projects are so expensive? It's because even the simplest of tasks (gathering parts, etc), is being done by an electrician making $40/hour plus benefits- there's only so many apprentices on the jobsite, and even those guys are making decent $$.
So, the electrician that was onsite and doing the work for $125/can is either a one-man show, or a well-paid and licensed grunt. Its amusing that the only time I've seen an electrician was on TV. BTW, don't fault me for my ignorance, but rather enligten me as to the accept elements of the trade. I had no idea you could take unskilled laborers and have them do 95% of the work and have that be acceptable. I can only go on what I see from when I lived in NE and what I see now that I live in Georgia.
What "high priced union labor projects" are you referring to?
In this area, surprisingly enough, some of the tract home projects are union built. People are still buying them, and the prices are what the market will bear.
The non-union built ones cost just as much, and the illegal immigrant labor ain't making the money, so who is?
Quality in either McMansion sucks because the builder is going to make his money.
Maybe the union builders have a beef with the non-union because they aren't pocketing as much. So, let's drive wages down some more. Prices stay high, though.
As a builder, how would you feel if the subcontractor flooded your job with "low paid grunt work" and charged "skilled tradesman" wages?
Are you talking about government funded work? School work?
Is the project overpriced because it is an architectural showpiece to inflate egos? Cost overruns? Kickbacks? Why can't a school be a 4 sided box with some windows? Shall we eliminate some of those pesty construction standards in nuke plants so they can get built a little quicker?
It isn't just "high priced" union labor.
What "high priced union labor projects" are you referring to?
I'm referring to commercial work- the only residential work the unions do here is high-rise condo work, and there's no non-union companies in the area even close to capable of handling a job of that size.
In this area, surprisingly enough, some of the tract home projects are union built. People are still buying them, and the prices are what the market will bear.
Can't comment on that- no union-built housing in NJ.
The non-union built ones cost just as much, and the illegal immigrant labor ain't making the money, so who is?
As above, can't comment on why union and non-union pricing in your area is the same. Here in NJ, if a project is bid open shop and union, there's typically a 15-20% difference in the pricing.
Quality in either McMansion sucks because the builder is going to make his money.
Definitely can't argue with that- the McMansions suck around here too- partially because the builders don't care about building crap, partly because the consumer doesn't realize he's buying crap and/or is happy with said crap.
Maybe the union builders have a beef with the non-union because they aren't pocketing as much. So, let's drive wages down some more. Prices stay high, though.
I haven't seen any union builders griping around here- everyone's making plenty of money.
As a builder, how would you feel if the subcontractor flooded your job with "low paid grunt work" and charged "skilled tradesman" wages?
If the quality was at the level I requested and was paying for, I could care less if the subs were using trained circus monkeys to do the work- as long as those circus monkeys where legally allowed to work in the US, and all taxes were being withdrawn from the monkeys' checks.
Are you talking about government funded work? School work?
A portion of the work I'm talking about is government funded and school work, yes.
Is the project overpriced because it is an architectural showpiece to inflate egos? Cost overruns? Kickbacks? Why can't a school be a 4 sided box with some windows? Shall we eliminate some of those pesty construction standards in nuke plants so they can get built a little quicker?
I agree 100% that all of the above items drive the costs up. Trust me- I watched as New Jersey pissed away over $8 billion in government funding building "monuments" that they called schools, and ran out of money 1/3 of the way through the program.
It isn't just "high priced" union labor.
Couldn't agree more.
Bob
It's the licensed electricians responsibility to ensure the installations are done properly, and to code. Who ever twists the wires together is irrelevant.
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It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Edited 1/23/2006 11:05 am ET by dustinf
It's the licensed electricians responsibility to ensure the installations are done properly, and to code. Who ever twists the wires together is irrelevant.
Believe me I know what you are saying. With the <5 minutes worth of county inspection I can see how the two premises take place and be in full fruition. In fact, one licensed electrician can probably pre-inspect quite a few houses before the county nitwit comes along.
BTW, I've often wondered if electricians down here ('down here', meaning I'm from New England and living in Georgia) cater to the DIY homebuilder and just charge a fee for pre-inspects and signs-off on the work DIY homeowners do. I mean, if they are going to take on the liability of unlicensed labor for 95% of the work, then by not make a quick buck charging $500 (figure I pulled out of the donkey) for pre-inspection once-over?
Here in Pittsburgh if you are DIY you don't need to be licensed. You still have to pass all the inspections, but you are allowed to work on you own home.
I think it's the same for plumbing.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Interesting. I never heard anything formal as the county inspector, including the chief inspector, are not willing to communicate with homeowners, or someone planning (attempting) do have a strong physical hand in their future home's construction.
Any idea what the local electrical companies charge for providing a pre-inspection service--if at all? BTW, I guess you'll be glued to the TV come SB40.
Any idea what the local electrical companies charge for providing a pre-inspection service--if at all?
I have no idea.
I guess you'll be glued to the TV come SB40
Ticket gods willing, I'll be watching in person.
--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Not trying to be thick headed but I don't get what your issue is.
In my area we are required to have a plumbing license. The business not each man. So I am a licensed plumber in my county and the men that work for me work under my license. Neither of them has a license themselves. I am responsible for their work, the quality, passing inspections and all. And you pay the same rate whether I do the work or one of my guys.
If I were installing a $200 can light I am sure my markup and labor would be in the $125 range. If you wanted each man to be licensed, no problem. Be prepared to pay more. I frankly know of no company that operates differently. So again I don't understand your issue. DanT
Dan, I never said I had an issue. Hahaha. I simply pointed out what the electrician was charging per per can to install the can and not the can itself. I then wondered what residential electrical subcontractors around me were making since 95% of the work was by Latino's that were semi-skilled but unlicensed. I found it interesting that the electrician(s) running the company did next to none of the work, but probably made considerable since they probably were charging the industry average as if each can were installed by licensed electricians.
I never said I had probalems with someone employing semi-skilled (apprentices) labor that wasn't licensed, no what was being charged. But this does go back, in my interests, in scaling one's sub ability to do more work without seeing labor reductions accordingly. So, a house could get wired in a time as if all work was by electricians, but actually the amount of time an electrician spent was almost non-existent. Yet, I doubt the builder or HO sees this as a benefit to them, so I speculated--just like that plumber's thread.
Dunno if I'm following you here Nuke.
Are you suggesting that if every step in wiring a home wasn't performed by a licensed electrician, it shouldn't be billed as such?
Is it required that a licensed electrician drill the studs? Pull the wire? Nail the boxes?
When a contractor (pick a trade) bids a job, he's bidding the job as a licensed outfit. All work upon completion must meet certain standards. That is what you are paying for. Whether each and every task was performed by a licensed individual doesn't matter. So long as the finished product is satisfactory.
FWIW......$125/can is exactly what I use when estimating electrical costs into a bid. As with any estimate, specific allowances for materials are made. If HO specs a fixture of greater value, they pay the additional monies.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Well, actually I am not saying anything, but exploring what might be the case. If the trade is such that all labor hours are billed as if worked directly by the licensed person then yes would be my consumer response without thinking. I place this under the same condition that if I was having major surgery I do not expect the RN to have a labor charge like the doc cutting me open. Would you?
Keep in mind I am exploring, here. I have not said (not that I can remember saying) I had a problem with what was being charged (re: $125/can install charge), or that of my observations. I am exploring how things are done. I know that consumers asking such things are highly undesirable by those invoicing them, but I cannot help being curious.
Nuke,
"all labor hours are billed as if worked directly by the licensed person "
What Bob said; 68608.15
SamT
" I place this under the same condition that if I was having major surgery I do not expect the RN to have a labor charge like the doc cutting me open. Would you?"
Just before Christmas I went to the ER to get stitches. Granted not major surgery but then again neither is installing a can light. Guess who did the diagnosis? An RN. Guess who did the work? A physicians assistant. The doctor stopped by for about 20 seconds after it was all over with and asked how it went. Didn't even look at the cut. Last I saw of him.
Now I wonder if they charged me less because the licensed doctor didn't do the worK? I doubt it. A can light is a pretty simple deal. Most of the wiring in a house is pretty simple unless you are dealing with the panel, some switching issues or some of the techy points. So semi skilled latinos may have enought training to handle it fine. You aren't predjudice are you? Is that what the real issue here is? DanT
don't worry ...
he'll keep arguing till he gets the answer he likes.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Similiar experience with going to the doctor... I had picked my Primary Care Physician mainly because he is a Dr of Internal Medicine, usually means extra study and experience than plain MD. I have not seen him in quite a few years when I go to his office. He's busy taking on cosmetic medical patients (dermabrasion, skin peels, vericose vein removals, etc).
I get the young PA's whenever I have to go there. Still the same charge to the Insurance Comp and still same co-pay. Guess the Dr that owns the practice makes out better money wise. Altho I did prefer having the young female PA perform my annual physical complete with digital prostate exam, rather than the 60 yr old gruff male Internal Med Dr.
"I did prefer having the young female PA perform my annual physical complete with digital prostate exam, rather than the 60 yr old gruff male Internal Med Dr."
yeah, I don't know, I think it could be a super model and I still wouldn't think it was any better...
yeah, a digit up the ####, is still a digit up the ####.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
When you're gonna get that done no matter what, who'd you rather do it? An old man doctor or a young pretty female PA?
One more vote for the pretty young female. These other guys have been reading to much Bear magazine.
I guess I see your point, but it's all a moot point, I don't like the idea either way. ;)
I'm still a good 10 years away from needing it, I think.
I'm still a good 10 years away from needing it, I think.
Me too, thank God (well, maybe 5 years....)
Maybe by then they will come up with a less "invasive" way to take a peek
"annual physical complete with digital prostate exam"
Wow- I didn't know they did those digitally now- I thought they were still using a finger......
Bob
Wow- I didn't know they did those digitally now- I thought they were still using a finger......
Don't be so disappointed. If you hurry you may still be able to get one "the old fashioned way".--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
OK, since we have the subject on the board, here's a "digital exam" story. It's even electrical, so it ties into the original post.
Working on a Habitat for Humanity house, a small '50s ranch, that was donated to the affiliate and moved off some very nice property. After the two halves were re-connected, we did a complete re-wire.
Parts of the exterior were re-sided with T-111, and the crew that did it buried the wire for the doorbell button.
We'd wrapped a few feet of wire around a 16d nail driven into a stud to keep it from being covered, but clearly had not driven the nail in far enough. Or the siding crew just felt indisposed to go get a drill and pop a 1/2" hole to accomodate the nail and wire.
I got my toner and probe, squirted tone onto the wire at the transformer end. As I'm waving the probe around the area, the noise of the toner attracted bit of attention from the various volunteers (in some cases because they think it's their cell phone ringing). Pretty soon, I've got a small audience, a few of which don't believe I can find the wire with any degree of accuracy.
Having a good toner/probe set,and quite a bit of experience, I pinpoint the location, and drill a 5/8" hole. I take a peek but don't see the red/white twisted pair of the bell wire. I run my index finger into the hole, right up to the knuckle, and can't feel anything. I ask one of the volunteer crew, who happens to be a retired physician, to give it a try.
Some bystanders are starting to call for the sawzall at this point. Others, for a wireless doorbell. The doc has his finger in, way in, and is probing around, at which point I ask him if this is when he should be asking the house to turn it's head and cough...
Cliff
p.s. After he quit laughing, he felt the wire. With a hooked piece of 14 gage bare copper, he got ahold of it and pulled it out of the wall. We used a small block of 1-by-2 (with chamfered edges) to mount the bell button. The hose got a clean bill of health. Don't ask about the proctoscopy...
"Wow- I didn't know they did those digitally now- I thought they were still using a finger......"
Keeping with your bad humor..... In the old analogue days they used a stout limb from an ana tree. Yuck Yuck.
But did the electrician on TOH get to wear a t-shirt with his company name in 4" letters?
Actually, I had tried to pay attention to what he was saying and didn't notice what he was wearing. I didn't see anyone else with him other than a women that was explaining the lighting layout for the kitchen.
Dang, my licensed electrician just charged me $45/ can labor only, excluding materials, wiring and switching...I'm gonna call him tomorrow and tell him to jack his rates up, especially since he's a good electrician!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Jason, if he is good at his trade, maybe you should refer him to TOH.
Nuke,
I see your point, but. . .
Elecs charge $100 - $125+ per drop, new construction, includes wire, boxes, switches, outlets, covers, does not include fixtures, cans, or fancy covers.
Includes 1 trip for pulling the wire, installing boxes.
Includes another trip fro installing outlets and switches.
Includes another trip for installing fixtures and covers.
Includes another trip for punchlist.
Note that a "trip" may last more than 1 day each.
His biz grows, he hires crew. Should he change rates to a per man type? "Nobody else does!" It would require more accounting to determine the rates. Have to charge more when the crewman gets a raise. . .Oops, the GC is bit__ing 'cuz rates went up. Etc, etc, etc with reasons not to do it.
Most residential contractors charge the same hourly rate for everybody on the crew. You have to if you're going to estimate jobs.
SamT
Hey I resemble that remark, LOL!
Actually this electrician has finished/changed a previous elec. sub's work, always insists on the "upgraded" or "not necessary, but definitely better" solution. He really is a TOP-NOTCH electrician IMO, I just think he ain't expensive enough...of course he's got to stay "competitive" (what's that?) with all the jacklegs out there.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
I wanted three 4" cans in the bathroom, but my wife AKA "the designer "had other ideas........
...... first a soffitt had to be made, so of course, the designer wanted the old walls torn out, then part of the ceiling was lowered over the tub/shower too, .....a shower light had to be added.
..new fixtures sink, toilet ,tub plus ..... faucets, valves heads and ALL new copper in the walls..... were purchased, tile was installed around the new tub...new toiletry cabinets were custom made (cherry)...thank you...
a new floor
a new medicine cab..of course......
new lighting for the sink......power inside the new custom (cherry) ...thank you...cabinets....
a receptacle at the old ceiling hgt. for seasonal -festive -holiday lighting
A new fan /light /NL combo......
dimmers (lighted ) for the shower light......sink pendants........the receptacle for the seasonal -festive -holiday lighting.......
and of course my three little cans.......
so the price was right around €4000 for those 3 little 4"cans ..........
..installed and trimmed....
personally the Electrician was a true craftsman ,bright, very highly skilled and motivated......plus, a really swell guy....the other crafts were totally inept, and very stupid in a DIY kinda way....
so, the installers never saw a dime ......even after sleepin with the designer......
but man can that woman cook..........;>)
Edited 1/24/2006 12:01 pm by maddog3
Edited 1/25/2006 2:24 pm by maddog3
Musta been worth your while!
......IT was a nightmare actually
I had a customer who wanted 8 can lights installed. They got a bid from a local electrical company and asked me to review the quote. 8 cans on dimmers installed in a ranch-style house with full attic access.....$5000.00. hum.... apparently someone didn't need the work but was hoping for a little ignorance of costs of services. I brought in an electrician who installed the cans for around a $1000.00. Can't say I blame the high bidding guy.... maybe his kid needed braces or he was building a pool and needed a diving board or.... But, this is what makes America great...competition. I love it!
Has Pedro or Juan weighed in on this?