customer calls with suspected problem with a project you did for them several years ago. Project is out of warranty AND your on site visit shows there is no problem with your work——how do you charge??????
specifically—we did a tear-off and new roof for a customer several years ago—roof currently is about 2 years out of warranty.
customer calls—-is selling the house to her brother—but notices paint is flaking off one bedroom wall( exterior). solid brick wall–stucco outside, plaster inside directly on brick.
Pizza sized area—–has been patched ,re-patched,re-re-patched manytimes. most recently in September–looks like unprimed paint over dusty joint compound patch.
flaking appeared a few weeks ago during sub zero weather.—ice dam not an issue( non existant).
in the future what would you do for something like this?
i have all ways done a free visit–even out of warranty. short chat–explain situation, make suggestions,leave—2 hours gone.
but I now wonder—–some weeks ago—– drip started on Valve upstream of water meter at my house—–city says”Your problem,not ours”–call my plumber–he sends out guy. guy chats-takes channel locks, torques down nut on side of valve—–says” boss says I have to charge you our standard $90 service call” I pay without blinking.
relatively same time–my neighbor has 4 inches of water in basement—calls HER plumber——plumber looks at situation—-says” city problem—-that will be $90″—city digs up street–fixes problem.
Sooooo, i wonder—————-
customer calls, I point out over the phone that there is a $90 service call if the problem is not under our warranty–or OUT of warranty”
greedy?
abusive?
smart business in line with the plumber?
what do you think?
Stephen
Replies
sorry---- I don't know how this got in HERE---i was aiming for the business folder.
stephen
Hit the area with plaster weld, then prime and paint.
Oh, you meant the service call charge.
Tho I believe many take it for granted when you don't charge, I don't. Good will, marketing, whatever you want to call it.
Nice Ice this a.m.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Goes down under good will and advertising for me - I send a bill that details the event, an amount fo rmy time, then a line thru it and write "No charge" across the face of the bill.
That way they know my time is worth enough not to abuse me and to appreciate it. Ihave gotten thank you cards in reply or follow up calls with referrals.
One lady I did an inspection for - I had never met her but another client of mine refered me to do her a favor - noit only paid my bill, but she added two hundred bucks and sent a basket of fruit. She felt that her peace of mind was worth something extra.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Excellence is its own reward!
That is an excellent idea!! "Bill" them so they know the value of your time but put "no charge" on the final line. You've taken a situation where they might have been mildly irritated that you didn't fix it for free and turned it into a mild sense of obligation, plus they have your address and phone number there on the bill to remind them to call you if they want the work done.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
we get calls like this everyday, maybe six a day. Come look at this, or drop by. But truck like gas, workman comp like money. Time sheet takes time, then there a summary for file. So if you call and I leave the office. Its two hour minimum plus travel. If within ten miles I wont charge travel. But some jobs are 100 miles away so thats five hours to say hello.It not that you want to make money but you dont want to go bankrupt either.
Piffen---
that is potentially a good idea.
I need to think it through carefully for a bit.
Problem is---- I have done a lot of roofing for about 20 years within a fairley limmited geographic area
so potentially, several thousand houses are involved. roofing being what it is-------some of the first roofs I ever did---will shortly be about due for replacement.
there is a fine line to be walked here---carefully.
your suggestion has considerable merit---and historically i have viewed the situation(goodwill/advertising) much as you have
however time, sheer numbers and mother nature combine to potentially make this a numbers game-----and then Brownbags position comes increasingly into play.
stephen
Brownies point becomes more true as you deal with
A larger customer base
A larger geographic area
A greater workforce For me, there is nothing more thanten miles from me, I enjoy a visit unles they are demanding a certain time, and I have always looked at callbacks as marketing. I've ALWAYS gotten an upsell or a referal out of any callback I have ever had.But that is my own personal charm at work.
;)I see what you are saying. But if you want to use this to sell into different parts of the home improvement market, keep yourself a stable of subcontractors at the ready
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffen,
i am laboring at a disadvantage relative to you------
1) I don't particularly enjoy the visit
2) I have no personal charm
3) I am not entirely certain I want to use the opportunity to sell into other types of work
but---- I would compare the situation to getting brakes on a car. we are dealing with a "wear" item with a limmited---but undetermined life span.
If I get new brakes on my truck this week---and a month later a horrific squeel starts up in the wheel----of course I take it back to the shop-------but what about 3 years and 60,000 miles from now---or 4 years--or 5 years and only 40,000 miles---whats the cut-off?
i need to think about this pretty carefully---because potentially there are several thousand roofs out there I have worked on in one capacity or another.- most are out of warranty---but despite THAT---generally if people call--------and on site I discover a nail pop or something--I am quite happy to take care of it instantly--and for free, with a smile on my face--despite the fact that it is 5 years OUT of warranty.
but what's the cut-off
customer calls with 9 year old roof-----suddenly started leaking-----turns out it is from a puncture caused by TV ant. falling off chimney?????
Or--customer calls with " roof leak" from their 16 month old roof-----turns out " roof leak"---is really wet spot on bedroom carpet----caused by window left open in driving rain storm ??????
customer calls with 2 year old roof that "must" be leaking------turns out water on basement floor is bubbling up out of crack in slab????????
or" my brother says this must be a problem with your roof vents , the windows are fogging up in the winter !"------- of course 5 years ago when i roofed your 86 year old house I vented it to code---and appropriate for the existing conditions-------- subsequently--- customer had several OTHER contractors insulate, re-side, install new windows, doors, and a furnace with a humidifyer-----------------
all of this is not really a problem at this time------ really few calls like this--BUT------theoretically---- the potentiall is for several thousand of these calls------so what is the cut-off????
thinking things through, carefully,
stephen
That's called "Owning your customers."
Marketing and Sales are in ecstasy.
The CFO is raising the roof with his howls, 'cuz all that money is going outand he can't see any return.
Accounting is having a fit 'cuz they don't know where to credit the expenses.
The CEO is pulling his hair out because he never heard of "Owning" customers and doesn't have a plan.
Sorry, I don't have a plan for it either. All I know is that you gotta listen to Sales, Marketing, and the CFO, and come up with a direction and plan, then tell Accounting what to do.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
stephen... i didn't respond because i would have just been repeating what piffen said
really.... it is more of an opportunity to keep in touch.... the unreasonable ones will reveal themselves and you can handle them on a case-by-case basis
remember how you priced these jobs.... well, a certain amount of hand-holding was built into that price , right ?
not all hand-holding takes place during the job... some occurs after the factMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
handholding?---- LOL.
Last summer---prospective customer( totally different from above story) responds to my ad with a chimney she wants re-flashed.
i look at the chimney( this is before I had a digital camera)---- counter flashing is pulled away from brick in rear of chimney---and nowhere is it inset into the mortar lines----rather it is just nailed and caulked onto outside of chimney.
so--i give her a price to re-flash the chimney---it needed it--------interior of attic also showed many water marks----though none wet( this becomes relevant--trust me! LOL)
after a week or so---prospect accepts proposal. I schedule work.
she re-schedules
than she RE-RE-schedules
eventually----following weeks of back and forth----AND following my vacation--- I re-flash the chimney.
then she asks about patching the plaster.
" happy to------let's set that up for september---that will give us plenty of time to be absolutely sure everything is dry and tight with the flashing----and it will let anything in that wall dry out"----good idea she responds
over the next 6-8 weeks--she calls me 3 times--to "confirm" everything is dry and tight( 20/20 hindsight-- I should have bailed out during this time period)
i make repeated trips--in the rain---after the rain etc. to confirm no leaks
eventually---- patch the plaster.
calls start back up----" could you check this, make sure of that etc.'
more trips--in rain--after rain, etc.---------never any sign of water---other than what was there the first day I arrived( now wishing i had a digital camera that first dayLOL.)
after 8 trips or so----sanity forces me to stop returning her phone calls-----by this time i know-----she has no friends or relatives in the area---her son lives out of state(FLA)----and I also know---some days she takes her meds----some days she doesn't.
eventually--i recieve letter from BBB a couple months ago.--customer complains i no longer return her phone calls--and she is unhappy with this rude treatment.
fortuneately-- i keep a log of everything every day---------so i send letter back to BBB. copies of work proposals------number of trips etc.---last i here from the BBB( knock on wood)
isn't dealing with the public wonderfull!
i have relatives that need this kind of handholding----I don't need more just because they can read an adv. in a periodical.
Stephen
I filed a BBB complain against a car dealership about ten years ago. They sold me a brand new car with a broken A/C system, and refused to fix it.The BBB send me a letter saying. The car dealership pays an annual due with the BBB and you dont, were siding with the dealership.
ecellent point brownbagg,
i USED to be a BBB member---maybe 8-9 years ago.
then I caught the BBB salesman in a lie-----as he tried to get me to renew for another year-------and I caught the BBB office staff in some really sloppy service work-------both things the BBB itself usually kicks up a fuss about against a business if a consumer complains-------------
so i let my membership expire.
in concept---the BBB is a good idea----- but in its' execution------- somewhat short of that ideal---and even potentially amoral-------
in application----the BBB is really just another business paying its' sales staff by commision-------------and " shaking down " the business community via its' reputation with consumers
stephen
Stephen, it's good to think about these things, but you really have to keep them in perspective, and also be realistic about the volume of these calls that you think you will encounter. If you're getting ten a year, then I think Piffin's approach is best. If you are getting ten a week, then you have a time management situation.
But, wait...we can't overlook the huge benifit to the calls that you are suggesting might happen. You've stated that you are trying to maneuver the bulk of your work from the roof to carpentry and most of the calls that you might encounter will offer some form of alternative work. I don't know how much quality carpentry it will produce, but certainly it presents a huge volume of general contracting work that is yours for the taking, if you choose to take it. Your presence on all of these leak problems is probably a huge advantage over most other contractors for two reasons: you are a known and reputable contractor, and you are there first! If you handle the ensuing inspection and estimate and proposal correctly, you will be creating a lot of profitable work for yourself and your family. You might have to dip into the subcontract market a bit more, but that shouldn't be a problem because you already have a network started.
I see these calls as being a huge plus to your benefit. The question of how you capitalize on them is up to you. I'm sure you'll make the right decision.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
blue--------- i am a suspiciously organized guy-- i keep records.
we aren't talking 10 of these calls a year
we are talking MAYBE 3.
however-- i like jons' idea.
time to type up a letter, try out the spell check thingy---and buy some stamps LOL-----or possibly better yet---- get my printer to print something up nice and official on postcards etc.
stephen
i'm not arguing with you - just helping you think.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The difference between a couple of your examples (if I read them carefully enough)...
You were originally called because there might be a problem with your work. If you later send a bill because it wasn't your problem, that could possibly be seen as retaliation of a sort. I would not do that. And definitely not because you did not say so that you would in advance. Worst thing you can do is send a bill when one is not expected, and it's up to you to set the expectation.
If you were called to check out a possible problem with someone else's work, then billing for a service call is perfectly fair. Many do not do that, but as we have discussed here for years, many are in the habit of giving away their time, effort, expertise, etc.
Since your jobs are in a small geographic area, I would make the quick trips for nothing. It gives you a chance to demonstrate that you are johnny-on-the-spot and your customers will continue to refer you to others.
I just don't think there are enough trips like this in a year to make a big difference on my bottom line. I make 1 or 2 visits per month and even if I billed for all of it the dollar amount would be quite small. I chalk it up to marketing, and it is very good for that.
I think the differnce in large part is that if it is just you doing the visit, it "costs you nothing" to be there so no charge is ok.
However, with others, it involves employees that must be paid to service the call and therefore a charge must ensue.
BUT.... truth is that it shouldn't matter what your cost is or isn't.... a service call is of a certain marketable value.
Yet, I still find myself doing them for free.
I had one the other day where I replaced some tile and overnight a cleaning crew damaged the repair. I had to return, demo the now dried setting and redo it. Spent a good 4 hours with travel and labor. I didn't charge a dime but they did feed me a ribeye with grilled shrimp skewers and all the fixings. I would have normally charged $260.00 for the time.
I figured it was good relations with a new and large client.
Although, regardless, I would have probably not charged anyone even if it were a small client. I just feel bad about it... which is probably bad business in some respects. Although, if I had to pay a guy to go out instead of me doing it myself, I would have charged them something.
So, the short answer is that I don't have an answer.... lol. Looks like I'm in the same boat as you.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pifin, I think that's a wise and good business practice.Also timely. Earlier this week I decided to help out someone who was in need (yep, the knight in shining armor save the world BS AGAIN) and I hauled a few free loads of base course to her. I did not want anything for it, or I never would have offered, but then she said something about running that truck again (46 miles one way). I then realized that she had no idea what it costs to run a semi.And how would she?If one had never bought a tractor and a trailer and done the maintenance and paid the fuel and taxes it might not look like anything much.Likewise for all of the rest of us here. Maybe I'm a little heavier on the hard capitalization than some, but some of the guys here have the equivalent of a PhD any day, and that is worth something.Thanks, man. That one is now part of my business.
If the visit is outside my normal working hours (and it usually is) I send a bill for my time at the usual rate and ask that the customer send a check in that amount to a specified local charity. The customer understands the value of your time, your committment to your community and is introduced to a way to support the community. Since many of our customers are new to the area, this works well for everybody. I find this a lot easier than simply asking for money for groups I want to support.
I do that when I bury horses for people. Same idea.
But alot of free calls can add up and take time away from paying jobs. after seven calls to the same place in two week, you got to "nip it in the bud" so that why EVERY trip gets billed.I had a contactor that would never take payment for dirt. dirt might be cheap but fuel not. after awhile I sent a money order to his accounting department with no name on it. He might not know who its from but he got paid.
We have to remember that we can't be just about the money all the time. Yes we have to do this on our own time. Well nature of the business. Part of what keeps many of us working is our honesty and integrity. Are we entitled top bill out every time we jump into our truck. YES! Should we, No! Why? Because, we don't have to. It may seem like an expense at the time but it isn't. That person will talk about there experience to anyone that will listen. Make it a good experience for them and you will never have to pay for advertising.
The closest thing I have to advertising is my name on the side of my truck and my business cards. 95% of my business is referal, the other 5% is people walking up to me on the street. I get probably 85% of everything I bid on. I'm not cheap, just fair.
In your case, I would be inclined to give the customer a reduced rate as they are a repeat customer. Just make sure they know that you are doing that for them. If it something that can be done in 15min. or less, smile and tell them to have a nice day.
You can't buy advertising like that.
Dave
If I'm following you correctly......you went out to look at a problem that "might" have been related to work you had done for these folks.....but in the end, was not.
Like many here....in the past, I would not have charged for such a service call. Like piffin....I would send a bill with N/C in the balance due column.
Not anymore. A service call is a service call, and I am paid for my time.
I had a client that I extended such free services to. In the end, it cost me alot more than it would have cost her had I charged.
No mas.
These pretzels, are making me thirsty.
JDRHI,
i think what I will likely do is---------------------------
if the project is still within the warranty period---respond for free, with a smile---and PROMPTLY-----weather " problem is my responsibility or not---- no charge within the warranty period
however----if project is clearly OUT of warranty
at time of customers call----simply state" It's good to hear from you mr. smith-----you know of course that your roof is about 38 months past it's warranty?--- I would be HAPPY to look at the situation-----but i am afraid I will have to charge you our $90 service call fee"
then--------- if while on site I discover there issomething like a nail pop----I can fix it-----and at my discretion waive the $90 service cal( or charge it)------on the other hand---I can collect the $90 service call if it is really unrelated to me.
stephen
Sounds quite reasonable.
These pretzels, are making me thirsty.
Stephen,I'm just thinking out loud here, but is there a potential to turn your problem into an opportunity?Maybe send out a dozen letters every month to a selected group of past customers (either grouped by geographical proximity or age of the work you performed) offering to inspect their roof for a fee. I could see you charging $90 for this service and I would bet that a portion of your customers would be interested.If I had a 22 year old roof that I thought was deteriorating (I do) and lacked basic knowledge about roofing, I would probably be willing to pay your for your eyes for 30 minutes.Maybe you should send the mailer out to all past customers, and then in six months when a customer with 7 year old roof calls up your can mention your service program and that will ring a bell with them. I think having a formal program in place prior to their call would make it seem less opportunistic on your part; instead, you're offering a valuable service and they have a need for your service.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, I like that idea.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Jon---that's an excellent idea--- i will have to work on that.
commercial roofers do something a bit different---selling maintenace contracts.
what i could do-------------- let's say i completed a roof for a customer on 2-26-04.
on 2-28-07-- i send them a nice letter reminding them that their 3 year roof warranty has expired---- but i would like to continue caring for their roofing needs and that for a $90 service call i would be happy to inspect their now out of warranty roof and make any recomendations i think appropriate.
i could also take the opportunity to remind them that we also handle exterior carpentry repairs, plaster repairs, siding ,windows,doors,porch flooring, soffit work, fascia work, chimney repairs and rebuilding etc.
car dealers and HVAC contractors do this as well.
jon------- old buddy---that's such a freaking good idea--- i otta give you----say 2% of the action-LOL:>)
stephen
I'll take it!
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
jon... don't let it go to your head... stephen used to think i had good ideas tooMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
that IS funny mike
as a practical matter i have implemented most of your applicable GOOD ideas
however----since i am steering clear of employees- i can't adopt them ALL
stephen
BTW--once you admitted to golfing i knew you weren't as smart as i had previously given you credit for :>)
ah, golf..... god's gift to middle-aged men
played 18 holes yesterday....
and today we have 4 inches of snow
course opens on April Fool's Day
don't dispair, grasshopper.... you too can still take up golf.. i didn't start until i was 50Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
car dealers and HVAC contractors do this as well.
Car dealers? You want to be in their class?!!!!
The much better approach is to send out a letter before the warranty ends and offer to do any repairs that they might know about. I knew a window guy that did that all the time and he always got a good return on his investment because he picked up a lot of additional remodeling work.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
good idea blue---much better to send out a notice a month or so before warranty would expire offering to look things over for free----mentioning that it would cost a service call charge AFTER the warranty does expire-----and also tickle them for the additional lines of work.
As far as being in a class with car dealers or HVAC contractors-----would phase me a bit.
I notice customers doent quibble with car dealer shop rates---and customers doen't blink at service call charges from HVAC contractors, plumbers, electricians etc.
roofers and carpenters somehow----are expected to show up initially for free, LOL
Stephen
Stephen I feel your pain. I go through this a lot myself. But I never charge for these visits because sometimes (rarely) it's something I did or something I could've avoided.
First, as far as the plumber goes, did said plumber plumb the entire house when it was built? Probably not, therefore there's no connection to the leak he came to fix and his reputation and he doesn't care about charging you because he'll probably never see you again and his reputation won't be harmed at all.
As far as you're concerned, YOU installed that roof and it is very possible that the wall damage was a result of the work you did so therefore you do have a connection and most importantly, your reputation could be harmed by not at least paying a free visit. Maybe a ridge cap came up where a nail was driven to deep? I would climb up and check anyway, it shows good faith.
In situations where I feel my work was not the cause I tell the customer the problem could be related to something that was done by someone else who was not as professional/careful as I was. Like the gutter guy, the stucco guy, etc.... Maybe there's a hairline crack in the stucco hiding behind the gutter? Who's gonna know? Maybe there's an open hole where someone re-positioned a gutter nail? Who's gonna know? Is the roof properly vented? Maybe their is a ventilation issue you're not aware of that's causing excessive condensation? It's all very possible.
Mike
Piffen, Mike & others are right. I do the same thing, send them a bill detailing my charges, because I want them to know that my time is worth something. Then I write "Courtesy Discount" on the next line with a little note thanking them for the call or something like that, so then the total ends up at zero. That being said, I do deal with it on a case by case basis. If the customer is a habitual whiner, rude, demanding or otherwise unpleasant, or if the job is way out of warranty I am more likely to forget the courtesy discount.
Whether you view it as a chance to upsell or not, if that customer is a happy customer, they are going to call you when they really do have a job for you and they are also going to be talking you up to their friends and neighbors. I read somewhere that an unhappy customer is 13 times more likely to talk to others about their bad experience than a happy customer is to spread the good news. Sad but true. I think it's just way more cost effective to keep them happy than to have them complain to others.
BILL
This happen today. contractor gave me the wrong address to job, I never found him. He getting billed for two hours.