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bastard hip help needed

ChadM's picture

Hi all,


Im stick framing in the outside corners on a bastard hip trussed roof with one side a 12/12 and the other a 8/12. My problem is that I cant seem to get the hip rafter set to plane with both pitches. The top of the trusses sit 11 1/2 " up from the top plate, so I'm using 2 x12's for the hip and jacks. I've tried offsetting the hip to the steeper side to no avail, any help would be greatly appreciated.

(post #100543, reply #1 of 27)

I need more info. Do you have a sketch so maybe i,we can be of soem help.


An inch to short.  That's the story of my life !


bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

Wedding has been moved to November 14th. 

Doing a small ceramony now, big party in the spring!

(post #100543, reply #2 of 27)

Chad, if you have equal heels on both roofs, your overhangs will not be equal. Also, your hip will center on the corner of the wall.


If you have unequal heels, your overhangs will be equal and your hip will not land on the corner of the walls.


The choice is yours.


blue


 

"...

keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

From the best of TauntonU.

(post #100543, reply #3 of 27)

Now I know what he is asking, after reading your answer.


Maybe my mind was somewhere else tonight.


An inch to short.  That's the story of my life !


bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

Wedding has been moved to November 14th. 

Doing a small ceramony now, big party in the spring!

(post #100543, reply #4 of 27)

bstcrp, I'm not sure what he was asking, but my explanation should be in the FAQ's of roof framing.


blue


 

"...

keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

From the best of TauntonU.

(post #100543, reply #5 of 27)

The heels on the trusses are equal on both sides, but with the hip centered on the corner, I'm planing out fine on the 8/12 but an inch high on the 12/12. No matter what I do with the hip (set off center, change heel height, etc) the inch high doesn't change. Thanks for the replies, heading out the door now for work, hopefully will get this worked out today

(post #100543, reply #7 of 27)

If you have equal overhangs, the hip is centered on the corner of the house and you have equal heel heights on both the 8:12 and 12:12 sides, I'd take a close look at your truss layout sheet and make sure you have not made a truss layout error.  That's my guess...


Taking a step backwards - think about the "common rafters" (trusses) - how can you have 2 different pitches, equal overhangs, the same height fascia, and the same HAP (height above plate)?


 


 


Edited 2/24/2006 7:44 am ET by Matt

Matt

(post #100543, reply #8 of 27)

Chad, if your heels are the same, and you are centered on the corner, then your overhangs have to be unequal.


If your 12/12 overhang is 12", then your 8/12 overhang will have to extend out 18", if you want the fascias to line up and not have some funky thing like a computer program would create.


do the math: 18/12 x 8 = 12,    12/12 x 12 = 12


Your tails are probably cut to the same  projection and that won't work. I suspect that your 1" error statement is wrong in some way  too. For that to be correct, you'd have to be working with some very small overhangs. Very small means exactly 3"!


Do the math:


3/12 x 8 = 2,  3/12 x 12= 3


So, if your 12/12 is planing only 1'' high, you have 3" overhangs on both walls. I'ts possible, but....


blue


 


 


 

"...

keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

From the best of TauntonU.

(post #100543, reply #6 of 27)

for a 12" overhang offset the ridge to the 12/12 side six inches abd bevel the top of the ridge 18 degrees on the 8/12 half of the ridge abd 36 degrees on the 12/12 side of the ridge.

Matt- Woods favorite carpenter. 

(post #100543, reply #9 of 27)

"The top of the trusses sit 11 1/2 " up from the top plate, so I'm using 2 x12's for the hip and jacks. I've tried offsetting the hip to the steeper side to no avail, any help would be greatly appreciated."

I'm curious as to why if you are sent a truss package you have to frame your own hips and jacks?

Joe Carola
Joe Carola

(post #100543, reply #10 of 27)

Sat down with the calculator, did the math, found my dumb mistake from yesterday (layout error) and got it framed up. All the others(5) went as smooth as could be.


Framer, don't know why but the boss has something against the trussed hips and wont use them.


Thanks for all the replies.

(post #100543, reply #11 of 27)

So what was the mistake?  I learn really well from mistakes, mine or someone elses :-)


 


Also, if you keep the hip on the corner and have unequal overhangs, you will need to bevel the steep side of the hip.  Or you could slide it and avoid it.


Here are some pics of a bastard roof we did about 6 weeks ago.  It was a 6-12 & 10-12 combo. http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/124331745.jpg


Garage was 5-12 & 9-12 http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/124491908.jpg


Because of the angle in plan view the hip with the plates, when you mark your hip and then measure back on each side, the measurement will be different.  On a regular roof, it would be the same, but not an irregular roof. 


For my roof, I was using 1 3/4" LVL, so on the 6-12 side I measured back from the plumb mark 1" http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/130655381.jpg and then mark the heelstand and cut the seatcut.


On the 10-12 side, I had to 1 11/16" from the plumbline and the mark from the seatcut 9 1/2" heelstand http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/130655380.jpghttp://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/130655377.jpg  You can see that it is short of the top of the LVL, so I just snapped a line and set my saw to the backing bevel and cut it.  Nail the jacks to the short part of that bevel and it'll all plane http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/130656312.jpg

www.pioneerbuildersonline.com From Lot 30 Muirkirk

http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler                                     

(post #100543, reply #12 of 27)

Dumb mistake, had the girder truss that the hip died into set too far forward and it threw everything outa wack

(post #100543, reply #13 of 27)

So, now you have equal overhangs, unequal heel heights, and the hip is offset from the corner?

Matt

(post #100543, reply #17 of 27)

Chad, I thought that something like that was going on. That one inch error usually means somthing like that.


So, basically, you had to move the hip about an inch back and the hip does not sit on the corner of the frame?


blue


 

"...

keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

From the best of TauntonU.

(post #100543, reply #19 of 27)

Blue


That was pretty much it. Once we moved the hip back, swung it off the corner a little and everything fell into place


 


Chad

(post #100543, reply #20 of 27)

"Once we moved the hip back, swung it off the corner a little and everything fell into place"

Do you mean that you moved the hip back FROM the corner but it's still centered with the corner?

Or swinging it off the corner a little means that it's back off the corner but not centered on the corner?

Joe Carola
Joe Carola

(post #100543, reply #25 of 27)

Framer


What happened was that the girder truss was set too far forwards (toward the 12/12 side) and moving the hip allowed plane to fall correctly on that side but not on the 8/12 side. Once we moved the girder back to where it belonged we set the hip offset from the exterior wall corner, which then let both sides plane and let the hip run straight from the tail to the peak, which it didn't before.


For clarification, I work for a GC, we frame, sheetrock, finish, etc. We truss 80% of our roofs, when we do stick an entire roof it's simple gables or just basic hips. Do we do it with the speed that someone who only stick frames would? No. But in the end all cheek cuts sit tight, birds mouths lay flat on top plate and sit tight to the wall sheathing. I have a good crew and feel comfortable stick framing most roofs with them. Complex roofs like you mention in your post I wouldn't even consider, the amount of time that it would take a crew that is inexperienced in that facet of the trade to get it done and done right would be unbelievable. Those roofs are best left to the guys who do them on a regular basis.


Can the guy who sticks the majority of his roofs jump in and do the job of a guy who trusses the majority of his? Yeah, he could. The other way around? No. Some of the stuff that you guys do is simply amazing. That's my 2 cents.

(post #100543, reply #16 of 27)

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/8885471/124331745.jpg


Ahhh, scab  city! A man after my heart!


I noticed that you started with a small rip on the upper roof, and also finished with a small rip on the top. That puzzled me. Any reason why?


blue


 

"...

keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

From the best of TauntonU.

(post #100543, reply #22 of 27)

Around here it's fairly rare for us to frame closed soffits.  That first row is that LP soffit board so when you look into the soffits you don't see OSB.  Usuall we will make that rip such that we don't have a rip at the top.  I'm not sure why that didn't happen here.  I was out in the street cutting the hip and all the jacks in this pic while 2 other guys sheathed up above.  I think that what they did was just cut that soffit board into 2' rips so there was no waste.  The overhangs on the 6-12 were 20" and it wasn't worth having a couple inches of waste. 


 

www.pioneerbuildersonline.com From Lot 30 Muirkirk

http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler                                     

(post #100543, reply #15 of 27)

Joe, each truss company does their hip packages different. Some will send a hip precut, others will send nothing. Usually the hip package contains enough jacks to get you close to the corner, but we always end up cutting at least one pair.


Also, some corners and situations are left for conventional framing because of cost considerations.


So, you can see, even though we regularly use trusses, we also regularly cut conventional. The idea that we don't need rafter cutting layout and cutting skills is a wrong opinion.


blue


 

"...

keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

From the best of TauntonU.

(post #100543, reply #18 of 27)

"So, you can see, even though we regularly use trusses, we also regularly cut conventional. The idea that we don't need rafter cutting layout and cutting skills is a wrong opinion."

Blue,

Are you talking about this thread?

http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=69716.35

If so, my opinion is not wrong. There are guys who started out using trusses and only trusses and never stick framed a whole roof before that will admit that they can't stick frame a whole roof. Cutting a little hip and a few jack rafters after the main roof is set in place already hardly makes someone skilled enough to cut up a whole entire bastard hip roof.

Do you think a guy who has only set trusses and never stick framed a bastard hipped and valley roof with 5 different pitches with cathedral ceilings can stick frame this roof with the same skills as a guy who only stick frames roofs?

I know some framers around here that all they do is stick frame and have problems with these types of roofs. It’s not something you can master over night. So my opinion from reading posts is based on guys who just use trusses will say themselves that they wouldn’t be able to stick frame a whole roof

Next question since you told me in one of the threads is that you said you started out with trusses and I thought you always stick framed. Have you ever stick framed a bastard hipped and valley roof with 5 different pitches and cathedral ceilings before?

I’ll tell you what, why don’t we start another thread on truss framing roofs and stick framing roofs because to be honest with you I have no experience using trusses so I have no right to debate with anyone who does install trusses every day.

The real question is can you put a truss guy on a house that has to be stick framed? Not a simple gable or hip roof with the same pitch. I’m talking about a roof like I described above. A bastard hip roof with multiple pitches and cathedral valleys.

Joe Carola
Joe Carola

(post #100543, reply #26 of 27)

Next question since you told me in one of the threads is that you said you started out with trusses and I thought you always stick framed. Have you ever stick framed a bastard hipped and valley roof with 5 different pitches and cathedral ceilings before?


Yes I have conventionally framed bastard hipped and valley roof systems. In most cases, we have only two pitches, the main roof and the sideroofs. I can't remember doing a differnt pitch front an back, with a third pitch on the sides, but that certainly wouldn't present any obstacle that couldn't easily be calculated and cut. The basic principles easily repeat themselves even if five pitches are used.


I can't say that I've conventionally framed a bastard roof with five pitches, but I can say for sure that I wouldn't think that much harder on it than I would with a multilevel five pitched roof that was trussed. The mental strain is still there, but it's focused differently.


The Cathedral valley can pose some problems, but again, it simply becomes just another challenge. Either you know how to calculate/layout roofs or you don't.


If you really want a fun challenge, try intergrating a bastard hip and valley, with cathedral ceilings with a prebuilt truss package. It's somewhat more challenging beause you don't have the luxury of deciding what heels and wall heights you are going to use. If you don't fully understand the truss package first, you will be in a world of hurt trying to get them to match up.


I don't know how your Carpenters ascend to being foremen in your area, but around here most have enough carpenter experience and skills to do either. That's my claim, but I have no way of proving it. I've never worked for a lead carpenter that couldn't do either.


blue


 


 


 

"...

keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

From the best of TauntonU.

(post #100543, reply #21 of 27)

"Also, some corners and situations are left for conventional framing because of cost considerations."

Why would they leave out the corners and not send the whole package and why is it a cost issue?

If you get a truss package for a bastard roof with equal overhangs. Have they ever sent you the whole package with the hips sitting of the corner? Or do they just stop at a certain point and you have to frame those hips every time?

Joe Carola
Joe Carola

(post #100543, reply #23 of 27)

Joe,


 


Speaking of cost the last time I talked to a truss salesman in this area, a couple of years ago, he described how quickly they get expensive.  For us to request 2x6 top chords alone add quite a bit of cost.  That is why I will continue to stand by my opinion that trusses will be more expensive for the cutup houses we frame much more often than not.  On the easy houses, with gangcutting, the relatively few manhours trusses might save are a wash because our incidence of drywall cracks is much lower, among other things.  Do you know what it costs for us to send a guy over to a customer's house and deal with the phonecalls and coordinating necessary to take care of these things?  That is compared to the houses we have used trusses on.


Here is a house we used trusses on about a year ago http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/130726748.jpg


http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/130726746.jpg


We did the framing and siding.  I think it's a great looking house too.  We are going to build the exact same floor plan with the same elevation and use the TrusJoist product.  First it was going to be a hip roof, 8-12 & 10-12, but now the boss has changed his mind.  I'll email you the first drawing that TrusJoist made using I-joists.


That house last year, was supposed to have had the trusses delivered as 6-12 & 8-12 gables in the front.  They shipped 8-12 & 10-12 and we decided not to wait for new trusses and they paid us for the extra materials.  What an absolute nightmare.  The whole thing was a mess and another reason we don't like to use trusses.   BUT it is a good looking house I think. 


This time we'll do it with Trusjoist products.  I'm trying to use LSL because those rafters are 32' long.  There are some interior shearwalls with concrete stemwalls under them so we can build purlin walls if we have too.  Wait until you see the drawing. 

www.pioneerbuildersonline.com From Lot 30 Muirkirk

http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler                                     

(post #100543, reply #24 of 27)

"Speaking of cost the last time I talked to a truss salesman in this area, a couple of years ago, he described how quickly they get expensive."

Tim,

I still don't understand why if the truss companies are going to make up a roof, why is it more expensive to make up the whole roof than it is not make up the whole roof and leave sections out?

Is it cheaper to have 95% of a truss roof and stick frame the small sections that they're leaving out?

Joe Carola
Joe Carola

(post #100543, reply #27 of 27)

Is it cheaper to have 95% of a truss roof and stick frame the small sections that they're leaving out?


Yes.


 

"...

keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

From the best of TauntonU.

(post #100543, reply #14 of 27)

swing the hips and pad up the side wall top plates.


Jeff


    Buck Construction


 Artistry In Carpentry


     Pittsburgh Pa

    Buck Construction

 Artistry In Carpentry

     Pittsburgh Pa