I’m sure you will end up with a beautiful floor, old fir is really a stunning wood. I do think you may wish to rethink your strategy of nailing because of that annoying habit ‘old fashioned floors’ have of squeeking.
You might consider a couple of options:
1- glueing the floor down. You could use rustic square nails for architectural effect, but you would have modern adhesive technology doing most of the work.
2- you may already be doing this, but t&g your planks and side nail. I’d still glue it.
3- if you have access from underneath, screw from the bottom
Replies
insulating is a good idea, and I would defer to floor experts (full disclosure: I've just done my own home and some side jobs). A 1/4" underlay should add some, but not a lot of sound deadening, and no energy efficiency. How about blowing insulation into the floor... you'll get more sound control and energy advantages?
and I have come to the conclusion that gluing down the floor boards is always a good idea, it unifies the floor... cheap insurance.
I don't know about this gluing down floor boards idea. That seems contradictory to what I know about allowing wood to move as it expands and contracts with seasonal humidity fluctuations.
Are there any pros reading this who glue down real plank floors? Does this sound right to others?
When you say you're going to resaw this fir into random width boards, are you going to mill it to maximize the yield regardless of grain orientation, or will it all be VG, or what? It makes a big difference in how boards expand and contract.
I've glued some down and had good results. Enough so that I would probably do it again is some circumstances. This might be one. With glue, of course you will not use tarpaper. Without glue, I would definitely use it or rosin paper. The experts here have said that tarpaper is preferable in the flooring industry.
Fir can split easily, so you want to predrill for each nail. If not using old cut nails, choose something that will work well like a ring shank SS and set it.Excellence is its own reward!
Not sure about glue as Jim stated..Long term effect....use "cut" nails if you want the old fashioned look. Look through Old House Journal (sorry FHB) for ads with old nails cause theres millions of em in there. I'd try and contact Luvditchburns and ask his pro advice on the glue thang.
Be well
NAmaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I have to apologize for giving some bad advice re gluing. I'm in the middle of a job that involves Bruce engineered flooring, and the mfg recomendation is to glue down (as well as some floor guys I consulted with). So with that in mind, I endorsed gluing down the fir, which is of course not a wise move.
With that confession on the table, I will retract my earlier comments on the subject. My apologies.
I could bore you to tears for a couple of hours discussing the subjects of the cellular structure of wood as it regards wood movement, plain sawn vs VG, ambient humidity, and the relevance of all the aforementioned to laying a floor, but I’m too tired. I will allow myself to say this much…….make certain your wood has reached the EMC (equilibrium moisture content) of the house prior to laying a single stick of it, and that if I were you, I’d be applying finish equally on both sides, particularly over that garage area ( I'm assuming the garage is not ACed). If the ambient humidity levels of your house are different than those in your shop, you'll want to stack and sticker the wood in the house until it reaches EMC and then take it to the shop area where you will apply the finish to the backsides prior to installation. Hopefully, the show side finish would be applied in short order or the boards will want to begin cupping from the uneven exposure to relative humidity. Any finish that is applied prior to the wood reaching EMC would only prolong and thwart your efforts to get there.
I think you'll find much helpful info here......
http://www.nofma.org/installation.htm
Do you really think that he'll find hundred year old doug fir cupping that quickly? One of the beauties of fir is it's relative stability.Excellence is its own reward!
Belt and suspenders for me, Piffin. Too many years as a cabinet and furniture maker to leave anything to chance when it comes to wood movement.
Yeah, the slightest twitchh can ruin a good cab door, that wouldn't be noticeable on a floor.
I still say glue can be good, all things considered. It is a nasty mess to work in though.Excellence is its own reward!
What type of glue would you use, piffin? Would you still use fasteners?
Brinkmann for president in '04
Jim,
The adhesive was what I had recommended by the flooring specialists at the lumberyard. It was special order and I think it was a polyurethene type. I told them what the application was and they studied a book and said, "This is what you want."
Reason for the glue was to use as few nails as possible and to keep them short. We had PEX heat tubes immediately under. So yes, I nailed it too. I can't imagine installing solid wood T&g without nailing to draw it up snug. Being a fir man, would you anticipate much movement in this? I can see G's poit about the open to garage below affecting it.
I was pleased enough with the outcome that I used the same glue up for a couple of stair landings since, to help eliminate squeaks.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 9/5/2002 1:31:11 PM ET by piffin
Well, I've been thinking about this for a couple hours now. Let's see how many times I stick my foot in my mouth this time.
You said - "I nailed it too. I can't imagine installing solid wood T&g without nailing to draw it up snug. Being a fir man, would you anticipate much movement in this?"
There are many variables in this situation. First off, I agree fully that wood moves. Period. You can either fight it, or design a fastening system that allows the wood to move without compromising the intended use. That's the beauty of t&g. You fasten the board through the tongue and the groove of the next board slides over it keeping the board flat, but still allowing it to swell and contract. Same principle applies when we nail bevel siding above the corse(sp?) beneath it, or shiplap, the board beside it.
So one problem with wide assed boards and t&g is that the board could concievabley shrink right off that tongue since it will shrink and swell some percentage of it's width. The wider the board, the greater actual distance 4% shrinkage is, for example.
So for narrow boards, like say 2+1/4", or maybe 3+1/4", t&g toenailed is probably the ideal system if the wood was acclimated to within 2% of the subfloor it's going over, and both have stabilized.
But as soon as you apply glue, in addition to nails, it seems to me you now are securing the board in 2 places, instead of 1. So when the board swells the movement has to happen some other way than sliding back and forth on the tongue. That's why wider boards, that are fastened both sides, crack, because as the board shrinks the only way it can move is towards the secured side. And if you secure both sides, the middle of the board moves both ways towards the edges, and cracks.
I'm thinking glue might work, but I agree that at least with t&g, I've always relied on toe nailing down through the tongue to suck the board tight against the previous one, like you said.
I'm not saying it couldn't work, it's just something that seems contrary to what I've seen and done, with wood in general, and flooring in particular.
I'll leave the "hardwood"/"softwood" misnomers alone this time, most everyone's asleep reading this already, I'm sure.
But I will say that this is exactly the type of discussion that makes these boards worthwhile for me. It caused me to think - hard - about why I do what I do. That's a valuable exercise, for sure. Now I sure hope someone rebutts and explains their understanding of how something I said sounds odd. We all have a lot to learn.
And I have to get back to the salt mine. I've spent way too much of my lunch time here instead of watching that jerky I'm smokin'!
Brinkmann for president in '04
Jimbo, I been thinking more too while I was out mowing the lawn for the past couple hours. I've developed a theory about why I think it is safer to glue stabilized vertical grain than wide unstable face sawn wood. In addition to all that you said, which I agree with. I think the best way to explain my thinking is to make a drawing.
See ya next post on it.Excellence is its own reward!
So if you look at this, I am pointing out that the majority of the swelling and shrinkage happens along the line of the growth rings so with vertical grain, the movement is predominantly up and down form the glue to the air above within the thickness of the flooring.
But in plain sawn or face grained lumber, the movement is in the opposite direction predominantly, openning the opportunity for cupping, swelling, expanding and all the other headaches Gold has pointed out, and fighting with the glue joint and/or other fasteners or splitting in the middle when double nailed as you describe.
Flooring T&G joints are not milled perfectly square but have slop planned to allow for wood movement to some degree. It is undercut by a bevel on the bottom and the tongue is generally less than the groove. You don't want the tongue to land at the bottom of the groove before the top edge of the surface fits snugly together or the floor will be forever cursed by the lady of the house. When the wood swells a little the top just gets a little tighter and each piece can swell a small amt before the whole floor needs to move around to make use of that half inch we leave all around. I've always seen that space as insurance and believed that this milling pattern takes care of the majority, provided that we let it acclimatize on site properly. Just imagine if the whole floor moved a full 3/8" at the edge! the underside of these pieces would be all split off at the nails or the nails would be pulling and lifting the finished floor. before it got to the point of touching the perimerter walls and pressuring itself up.
That's my two cents on it
Might only be worth a penny with inflation...
:O)
Excellence is its own reward!
edit
Holy political promises batman! I didn't check the image size after scaning. Big white field there - I'll resize here
Edited 9/5/2002 7:50:28 PM ET by piffin
I guess I've got to repost to satisfy Lord Prospero...Excellence is its own reward!
The only reason that I glue a solid floor down along with nails is to make it sound solid and quiet. It has never been a reason in regards to movement. Proper acclimation and humidity control will keep the floor in place. I only glue soft woods over 6" wide with a urethane glue. The return detail under the tougue is set that way to allow the finished edge of the floor to match up with the next piece. When floors go over a rise in a subfloor the bottom edges would touch first, not allowing the finished edges to match up first without that spaced detail. GW
"The return detail under the tougue is set that way to allow the finished edge of the floor to match up with the next piece."
That's part of what I was saying but after it's down, it allows for some swelling without walking, I think.
We'rre moving into Zen territory here...Excellence is its own reward!
So Greg, when you use glue, do you omit the paper between the finish floor and sub floor?
And yeah, I think you are both right about that bottom face below the tongue allowing the top to close tight.
Gotta go.
Brinkmann for president in '04
"...the majority of the swelling and shrinkage happens along the line of the growth rings..."
Are you sure about this? Your reasoning is sound, but if it's based on this premise, and the premise is false, then you might reach a false conclusion.
My initial reaction to what you said is that a greater percentage of swelling and contraction takes place perpendicular to the growth rings, as long as the width of those rings is greater than the height. The softer wood in between the rings is the less dense summer growth, isn't it? So I THINK that is the material that is more suseptible to absorbing moisture, therefore swelling.
The cheif advantage to V.G., as I understand it, is that the top and bottom of the board(s) absorb pretty much the same amount of seasonal moisture because they each have about the same amount of that less dense material exposed. So, although the board still expands and contracts, it stays closer to the same overall shape as plainsawn lumber, where one side of the board exposes more summer growth, while the opposite side exposes more winter growth. The side with the more summer growth will take on more moisture and swell more than the opposite face, thus causing the board to "cup".
Now I gotta turn the confuser over to my daughter, but I'm gonna go check this stuff out in the bible. There is every chance that it's me who is operating on yet another false premise. I'll be back.Brinkmann for president in '04
I second the recommendation to read Hoadley's book, but the text isn't available online. Here's a shrinkage chart. http://toolmanmike.20m.com/chartsntables/woodshrinkagechart.htm I didn't make an exhaustive search, but in every case I checked, the tangential shrinkage, parallel to the growth rings, is larger than the radial shrinkage, across the growth rings.
Piffin,
It’s virtually impossible to prevent solid wood expansion and contraction in a normal residency situation. No finish, nor amount of it, will totally prevent the exchange of moisture and therefore the wood’s going to move. That’s the reason that hardwood faced plywood became the norm in the furniture and cabinet manufacturing business; less critical engineering and far less potential movement to contend with.
This fella’s talking about a solid wood floor of variable widths of stock. For all I know, some of these boards could turn out to be 10” wide. If they’re plain sawn, the wider the board is, the more prone they are to cupping from uneven moisture exposure on the board’s two faces because of the phenomenon of the alignment of cells in the growth ring.
There’s basically only two ways to control the movement of solid wood and they are… 1 – control the exchange of humidity via the finish……which is only capable of slowing the rate of exchange, but cannot prevent exchange and 2 – control the humidity levels in the environment to which the piece will be exposed.
When we build solid wood furniture, we must engineer the piece in a fashion that allows for the movement of the wood and takes it into account, rather than make attempts to “pin” it fast as that is an approach that’s doomed to failure. Solid wood on a floor is still the same beast and will act accordingly. The laws of physics won’t change down there on the floor. This is why, when installing a solid wood floor, you must leave a ½” gap between the lumber and the wall on the walls running parallel to the grain of the board.
The various available wood finishes have varying degrees of resistance to the exchange of water vapor. Oil-based poly, which falls into the class of reactive finishes, is a good choice for a floor in that it offers great durability underfoot while still offering pretty high resistance to moisture exchange. Water borne poly, which falls into the class of coalescing finishes, offers less resistance to moisture exchange because of it’s particular molecular structure. Shellac, which offers the highest resistance to water vapor exchange, unfortunately offers poor resistance to water droplets and is as such, not a good choice for a floor.
When attempting to control the rate of humidity exchange, there’s a great benefit to the application of several coats. The second coat increases the RTE (resistance to exchange) by 100% over a single coat. The third, however, only increases the RTE by 33%. The fourth……….25%.
Oil-based poly allows the application of numerous coats while water borne is limited to two coats or proper drying and curing may never take place.
My cautions to this fella’s floor install are intended to insure that he has a successful outcome. Just don’t want to see him go through all the work only to have the floor mis-behave. Fact is that wood never mis-behaves. It is we who mis-behave when installing and using it. We can’t “bend it” to our notions or will, but rather we’ve got to work with it. In an argument………it’ll always win.
By the by, for what it's worth.......I wouldn't be gluing this floor down, myself. It's solid wood, not a laminate, and I don't think you'll find any professional hardwood floor installers gluing down solid wood floors. The reason.........solid wood movement. I wouldn't want to start an argument with it.
Edited 9/5/2002 10:16:33 AM ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 9/5/2002 10:17:32 AM ET by GOLDHILLER
Thanks for ALL the input.
All the boards are at least 10" wide. Some are as wide as 14". However, I am planning to ripe them down to to various widths of 3"-6", because it is so hard to resaw them at their wide widths.
This leads me to more questions. I am using a 20" Delta/Rockwell band saw. The blade is 11'-91/2", .035, the teeth are 2/3 per inch. It seems that the blade gets dull pretty fast. I am thinking of changing out the spring to see if I can get more tension. Someone at Sator, a great blade sharping place in San Francisco, suggested that the belt might be slipping, causing the saw to not cut as efficiently and maybe changing the belt would help.
Originally, I was not planning to glue the floor down. I had considered predrilling the boards and screwing them from the top using a homemade plugs of the same fir or using an alternative wood such as walnut to plug the screws.
Glad to be of some assistance to your endeavor.
I can’t recall ever having laid a floor with screws and plugs myself, but I know it’s not an uncommon practice. Either, the fir or walnut plugs should work fine for you. I’d advise you to drill the holes in the floorboards themselves, for the shanks of the screws, such that you have a sloppy fit, so to speak. It’s the head of the screw that will be responsible for holding the board down. The oversized shank holes will allow the board to move some without splitting and will also allow the screw to tip some off vertical which will allow a bit more movement without undesirable repercussions. I’d drill those holes as large as seems reasonable while still maintaining sufficient hold with the head itself. Following this procedure, I don’t think you’re going to encounter any problems in widths of 6”.
If you drill your plug holes first with a twist drill, it’ll give you somewhat of a countersink effect and a place for that screw head to seat better than on a flat bottom hole. Problem is that the twist drill is apt to want to splinter the surface a bit around the perimeter of the hole. If you keep the drill sharp however, this should be kept to a degree that will be easily removed with the finish sanding. The alternative that I can think of isn’t pleasant; you could start all of the holes first with a brad point drill or a forstner bit and then re-enter them with a twist drill to get that bottom. You might be able to find a specialty bit in the size you need that would do both jobs in one plunge if you looked around, but frankly, I think you may get away with just a good twist drill and the sanding.
Maybe you could make a metal jig with the holes in it and them clamp it down on the board to align the holes and prevent the splintering. Naw…..you’d have to make one of each width of board and it’d be a hassle that would take forever. Then again you’ll have to come up with some sort of method to keep the spacings regular and the drilling operation efficient. Maybe some sort of jig on the drill press. If you keep the widths of the boards to maybe three or four different widths and drill all of one width at a crack, it wouldn’t be that much hassle to make a few jigs or setups. If you also kept the lengths fixed and were willing to sacrifice one board of each width and length, you could bore on through these sacrificials and then by clamping them on top of the floorboards, you’d have a whole board jigged for hand drilling at once. I’m sure you’ll figure something out without purchasing a line-boring machine. My brother has one of the things with 15 bits sailing at a crack. Great for cabinets with shelves.
I’d try to restrain myself when it comes time to screw the boards down and avoid over tightening them. It is possible to get them so tight that the board is prohibited from moving by all the friction that is created. Well and reasonably tight, I think is the key here. You needn’t be “gentle” about it, but you don’t want to super hyper-crank them, either.
As for the band saw problems………….there’s many things that could be going on here ranging from pitch build up on the blade which is quite possible considering the pitch content of fir to, as you suggested, a slipping blade or even the tires slipping on the bandsaw wheels. I’m not a very good troubleshooter of bandsaw problems, sight unseen. I manage to keep mine well tuned and have no problems resawing wide stock into 1/8” veneer, but frankly it’s about as much art as it is science when it comes to getting each individual saw to perform well. Blade width, size, as well as tooth pitch and count really matter tho on each individual job type. I guess I’d recommend that you post this one over on the Knots forum here as I think there might be someone there that after a couple of info exchanges might be able to lead you in the right direction.....or at least try to. Get ready to hear them argue about it tho. Otherwise, try a search on that site as the subjects been batted around numerous times. And then there’s some good books out there on the subject that will help you get yours tuned for maximum performance. I could tell you a good one, but it’s been on loan to the BIL for over a year and I can’t for the life of me remember the author’s name. Time to make a phone call and get that thing back where it belongs.
Anyone interested in learning virtually all there is to know, or at least all you'll ever likely have need to know, on the subject of wood physics should get hold of a copy of Bruce Hoadley's " Understanding Wood". Great book from a very knowledgeable man on this subject.
I meant to post the previous msg to ALL.....oops...
Another thought that crossed my mind is the part of the country &/or it's influence on the wood.
I have spent my years in Oregon and have dealt w/ warm/dry summers, & varying humidity, up to 100%, the rest of the year.
I suppose those of you in the upper midwest would see dryer winters & wetter summers? The southwest, mostly dry, etc, etc, etc....
If the installation location is in a stable environment, no matter what % humidity, would shrinkage/expansion be minimal?
GeoD
You are correct, sir...........as long as the wood was at EMC when it was installed and the humidity level didn't vary from that, there shouldn't be any change in dimension.
That's another good point. I'm in western Oregon and the moisture content can swing from 8% to 12% or even 15% over the course of a year INSIDE the house. Over in the eastern part of the state the humidity is less of a factor as the air is dryer year-round, much like the climate in the Rocky Mountain states. In my part of the state one always has to take the movement of wood into account when doing fine carpentry if the work is to be longlasting.
One thing that is seldom recognized is the stability of kiln dried wood vs. air dried wood. Kiln drying actually "sets" the surface of the wood cells making it difficult for water to reintroduce itself. "Free water," or water that enters between the cells does not affect the dimension of the wood, so kiln dried wood can take on a bit of water before it begins to grow (although it eventually will). With air dried wood, the cell walls maintain their ability to absorb water and wood movement can be more pronounced over a shorter time period. I've had some disappointing experiences using air dried wood in finish applications in my climate.
I picked this up from wooden boat building: Traditionally planked boats, like carvel or lapstrake, are, ideally, built from air dried wood because tight planking seams are achieved in large part by the swelling of the planks as they take in water. (wooden barrels use the same principle); When building boats that will be epoxy or fiberglass coated, kiln dried wood is preferred because the wood is more stable as some water will eventually find its way through the coating, albeit in small amounts, and excessive swelling of the wood is undesireable ( the boat hull is sealed by the coating rather than tight plank seams).
Off with their heads!!!
Edited 9/8/2002 3:56:55 PM ET by Notchman
The fir I use is always clear vertical grain. Plain sawn would certainly be less stabe and as I remember, all the ones I have used glue with are in controlled environments. I use oil poly.
The more common failure I have seen in wide plank floors is with newer wood that is face fastened and then it shrinks, de3velopong checks in the middle of the board between the fasteners.
Thanks for the feed back.Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
No question about it. If you want to minimize the development of cracks between those floorboards as the humidity levels vary, quarter sawn stock is the way to go. Plain sawn stock is destined to develop cracks between the boards if the humidity levels vary for any amount of time.
Let’s say that someone begins the project of laying a plain sawn lumber floor in the winter. The wood is brought into the final environment and allowed to acclimatize and reaches EMC. Typically, humidity levels in many areas of this country will be lower inside the home during the winter than in the summer and it is this humidity level to which the wood adjusts, I.e. it likely shrinks some prior to install. The plain sawn flooring is installed, one board tight to its neighbor, and come summer when the humidity levels of even an ACed home rise, let alone those that are not ACed, the wood wants/needs to expand. The boards will likely compression set against one another making the fit so tight that he wood fibers compress against one another. Comes the next winter……….the boards return to the same relative humidity levels as those upon install, but now have cracks between them because they compression set during the high humidity levels.
This is where the RTE efficiency of the finish comes into play. If you can, via the finish, “forestall” the absorption of the humidity of the summer months, you can minimize the changes in dimensions and thereby reduce the size of those cracks when winter returns. Not eliminate, but reduce. Plain sawn flooring is certain to develop cracks unless it lives in a strictly humidity controlled environment,
The reverse of this scenario would take place from an install during high humidity conditions. The ensuing winter will bring cracks between the boards but they will disappear, if and when, the boards return to the same EMC as that upon initial install.
VG flooring changes in “height” if you will, rather than in width because of the orientation of the growth rings. Therefore it is much less likely to ever develop significant cracks between the boards. It would also be safe to glue VG flooring for the same reasons; you’re not restraining its movement, as its movement is up and down, in the case of flooring.
About two years ago, while involved in an extensive 2nd floor remodeling that went on for months at a client’s home. We watched as a “professional” flooring crew installed solid 3/4” plain sawn oak TG flooring in the entire downstairs. I peeked in from time to time hoping I might pick up a few tips and tricks. Yikes!!!!!! They installed all of this flooring dead f..in’ tight to all four walls of every room!! The downstairs layout is such that one wide expanse runs for 44’ perpendicular to the grain of the floor. This too was installed tight against the walls. I brought the absence of expansion gaps to the attention of the homeowner who then questioned the crew about the advisability of the procedure. They glared at me, knowing full well that I was the one responsible for the interrogation, while assuring the client that all would be well because they were using a new catalyzed finish from Sweden that would totally seal the floor and all would be just fine. I assured the client that this was total BS. They proceeded and he paid. The following summer, the neighborhood kids could have used most of his rooms’ floors for a mountain bike run. Wood heaved off the floor in waves as high as 2 ½” in that 44’ run. The floor will not return to flat once it has reached this state. It had to be torn up and re-laid properly. I didn’t gloat, but I damn well should’ve.
I rest my case. Don’t start an argument with wood movement. The larger the expanse……the bigger the argument you are provoking.
Okay, I'm back. After reading in two different books last night and sleeping on it, and looking up the definition of "tangentially" in Webster's, and cursing authors who use terms like that when they write, I agree that I was absolutely mistaken about the way wood swells and contracts. You were right about the more significant swelling following the grain orientation, piffin. Thanks for saying that.
Say it loud - I WAS WRONG AND I'M PROUD! <BFG> Love this forum.
I'm still skeptical about the advantages of gluing plank flooring, though.
Wavos - there was an article in FWW about three issues back on tuning up your bandsaw. Did you see that?
Brinkmann for president in '04
>> I WAS WRONG AND I'M PROUD!
When will the t-shirt be available?
hehehehehe. Maybe on the back it could say those other powerful words "I don't know", or "you could be right".
Brinkmann for president in '04
While I’m busy being very long-winded on this subject, I’m going to take this opportunity to vent on something that has annoyed me no end for some time.
Solid wood flooring is not acclimatized “as seen on TV” or sometimes shown or described in the very literature that comes with the flooring. Many times I’ve watched home improvement shows do programs on laying solid wood flooring and they, nearly without fail, caution you that the wood must be acclimatized, but then show you the stack…….. one board sitting directly on top of the other, and tell you that the boards will be ready to install in a few days. To this, I say, a loud and resounding BS. #1 – the wood cannot acclimatize (reach EMC) when the air cannot get to it, and #2 – it couldn’t possibly shift its humidity content a diddle’s worth in a couple/few days. Let’s see now………..when wood is kiln dried, each board must be stickered so that the contained moisture has a way out, but this need to sticker the boards for the following acclimatizing isn’t necessary??? Doh! If this wood has been stored in the uncontrolled environment of a warehouse, lumberyard, milling operation (where it was TG’d) or such some similar place for a prolonged period of time………..then it’s MC is likely going to be significantly different than that of its final resting place. The process of this wood reaching EMC with its new home is more likely to take a few weeks than a few days when you consider that most homes are ACed………...and it certainly isn’t going to take place in any amount of time that the average human cares to live with it unless those boards are stickered so that the air can circulate to the faces of each board….and not just the edges and the ends. While stickering all this wood may sound unappealing, you’re fooling yourself (frequently aided and encouraged by TV personalities) if you believe it’s going to happen in a tight stack. If you have any doubts about this, borrow a moisture meter from a local cabinetmaker and take a reading from the face of one of your boards in the middle of a tight stack there in your living room that await installation. Then take a reading on the same board in three days time and see if anything has changed significantly. Try it again in a week. Two weeks. Just for laughs set aside a couple of boards around which the air is allowed to circulate freely and test them, also. I think you already know what you’re going to discover.
Gold, I can't do anything but agree with you and plead guilty of using the vernacular term 'aclimatizing' I'll probably keep using that one though since it means more to most but clarifying meter testing.
Jim, I missd the part where you were wrong. I thought we were just having a good discussion. But I'm glad that you are proud!
;)Excellence is its own reward!
OK Jim, Just discovered there was a few posts I skipped reading. I found it. Yes you were wrong but this is still one of the more valuable threads we've had lately.Excellence is its own reward!
"Yes you were wrong..." ain't the first time, my friend. And it danged sure won't be the last. "Tangentially", who the hell uses terms like that when writing for carpenters?
Brinkmann for president in '04
Book learnin' geez, whatever. In theory, oookaaaay...guys, I have seen quarter sawn white oak 5" flooring, sealed on on all four (count 'em 4) sides, shrink to the point where it was unnacceptable. This was supplied and installed by a top notch flooring contractor. The heat was on(winter), the flooring was acclimatized with the bundles broken for 6 weeks, I know 'cause I had to walk over and around it all that time. Excellent builder, crawl space sealed off rightly. Tore it out, replaced, no changes other than 3 months later, no problems...Brownbaggs' hainted house?
I think the verticle grain shrinkage in only the thickness is a bunch of hooey, I've worked with wood too long to bet the farm on how the stuff's gonna shrink, or react. I can guess right 99% of the time, but that 1% keeps things interesting...I just mowed the lawn, too,, but I still don't know the answer...s' wood, ya never know...
Now that you've got yopur weekly mistake out of the way, you can relax for the weekend instead of worrying about getting behind.
;)
I'm a couple weeks ahead!
I almost used that word but couldn't spell it so I just said along the grain.
BSbilly,
I'll go with the 99% rather than bet against it.Excellence is its own reward!
Just gotta clarify...my 99%?
Buck Snort Billy
Just realized that abreviating your nomdeplume made it look like I was saying, "BS, Billy"
Sorry.
Yours and mine would probably be the same 99%. I guess based on grain direction per our discussion above.Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Didn't mean to give you the impression that I have anything against the term....acclimatizing.....if i did that. It's the way the process is frequently depicted and described that annoys me. What these folks propose will accomplish very little, if anything at all, unless the tight stack is left to sit for a maybe a year if there are significant differences involved in getting that lumber to EMC. And.....this would prove futile as well because the humidity levels are in a nearly constant state of flux, so that the tight stack would never truly reach EMC. Remember that EMC means ..equilbrium moisture content and this is always in reference to the current level of ambient humidity in the woods' new home. What it means in effect is ..."Has this wood finished changing dimension for the time being?" The acclimatizing needs to be accomplished within a reasonable amount of time and the only way to do this is to sticker the stack.
Its sometimes possible that the lumber is at EMC when it arrives and needs no acclimatizing. All depends upon what its moisture content is when it arrives and what the humidity levels are in the home at that time. Odds are slimish that this "no need for acclimatizing" is so, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day......... (if you catch the analogy).
I also realized that I was remiss in my jabberings about VG lumber. I should have said that the *primary* amount of movement in VG flooring takes place in its height. Sure, it still moves concerning its width, but not nearly to the degree that plain sawn flooring will.
Amen and Amen, brother.Excellence is its own reward!
And other factors come into play. I supplied the VG fir flooring for a house several years ago that was remanufactured from some beams out of an old sawmill. The wood was resawed, kiln dried and planed and delivered to the job. The flooring guy racked it out inside the house. He would install it in 30 days.
Meanwhile, the painters came in about a week and a half before the floor was to be layed. So when the floor was layed and sanded and finished, it looked nice and tight for about 3 months and then began to shrink...not a lot but enough to be noticeable.
Flooring guy, a good one, had to come back and fill it and refinish.
The wood was 80 plus years old, about 16 rings per inch VG, and had been dried to 6 %. However, just the humidity increase from the painting was enough to create swelling.
Those here who have acknowledged that wood moves in all directions are right and that should always be taken into account in critical finish areas. That's why true raised panels are allowed to "float" within the stiles and rails of doors and why perimeter gaps are left around the field of a solid wood floor and why an old lapstrake or clinched boat will leak until it's been in the water for a while.Off with their heads!!!
Notchman,
You sir, are so right! I can tell you’ve got this thing down pat. This guy would’ve been better of in his case, to have covered and sealed his stack of lumber with plastic sheeting prior to the painting crew doing their thing or have realized what happened and delayed laying the floor until the wood had dried out again.
A guy’s really gotta be on the stick (pun intended) if he’s going to be successful as so many things are at play here and it can all happen so fast and unnoticed.
Stuff like this happens when we’re snoozin’, and that’s why I say……90% of learning is, unfortunately,……….. a negative experience.
You're not from Goldhill, Oregon are you?Off with their heads!!!
Notchman,
No sir..........I currently reside back on "home turf" in northern Illinois. I spent some very memorable years in my early twenties about 4 miles beyond a little mountain mining town known as Goldhill, Co. which is up about twenty miles from Boulder. Everyday that I spent there, I felt so privileged for the opportunity of living in that inspiring place and still feel connected in spirit. My handle is a reminder to myself of all that I learned and experienced while I lived there. Twas invaluable to my development, I feel.
I got interested in this discussion & just finished reading through it. I've been a carpenter for the better part of 35 years. In the last 15-20, I done less professionally due to a messed up back.
I have to say that I have learned a bit from you all.....the discussion, at times, got to reminding me of grad school & exercise physiology!
I couldn't agree any more heartily w/ the swelling & contracting of wood. Just like s***, it happens....
But as to the gluing, I would like throw out some thought. I recently used a urethane based "adhesive/sealant' that came in a caulking tube. I had never seen it before, I think a found a couple of tubes at a garage sale or something. It's made by MD-can't remember the name.
Anyway, I used it too seal around a hot-tub pipe going from interior to the exterior of the tub-house I'm building. The MD tube said that it would never harden and was good for "flexible" sealing or some such thing.
It's about 25-30 days since I used it and I have to say it is flexible enough to allow 30-40 degrees of rotation.
This gets me to thinking that if you used an adhesive that ACTUALLY stayed flexible, would the flooring be allowed to due it's thing w/ the humidity changes?
GeoD
Sure it would. I'm familiar with polyurethane caulks and if this stuff is similar.........yea, it should work fine. The caulk could probably be used in its place and for all I know may be the same product in a different container as the caulk has the world's most tenancious grip while still remaning highly flexible. We used to use silicone rubber caulk to mount glass to wood because it worked well enough as an adhesive for the job and when the wood moved there was no consequence. The poly is a far superior product to the silicone. The product I use sounds exactly like that you encountered and used. We get ours here locally from Menard's and it's made and marketed under the name PL caulk.
I guess I'm having a time tho understanding what advantage it would give you over nailing. If this adhesive/caulk would flex enough to allow the wood to move (and it will), what purpose does it serve? If it allowed the wood to move sideways.......wouldn't it allow the wood to rise off the floor also if said piece of wood wanted to cup? And therefore the advantage to using it would be.........??????
Remember, the caulk/adhesive doesn't know the difference between what you want it to allow and what you don't want it to allow. It just does its thing without prejudice. In this case.......flex.
It would take some super-natural adhesive to know that it wasn't suppose to move vertically and only horizontally. Maybe nano-technology will soon come up with an answer for this one.
Edited 9/8/2002 12:33:33 AM ET by GOLDHILLER
Never considered not nailing....my thought was in response to the "no glue" opinion.
GeoD
Yes, I suspected all along that you intended to nail and perhaps add the flex adhesive as well. I was just trying to point out that IMO it wouldn't really serve any purpose to put that flexible adhesive under there. Then again, it won't hurt anything either. Didn't mean to imply that you wouldn't know enough to nail it at all, if I gave that impression.
Hello neighbor!
I was through there and Blackhawk, Central City, Peaceful Valley et al back about '71 for several weeks.Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
You aren't the geeky guy that pulled up on the road next to the cabin one morning, set up his camera and tripod, and then started shooting pics of me walking to the outhouse,........ are you?
Haven't been back that way for a long time now. Friends have tho and say they're stunned at the changes. Oh well, what's a guy to do. Stay home so I don't have to look, I guess.
I was the barefoot hippy driving a '57 chevy PU with a yellow submarine painted on the door.
Some things change for the better...Excellence is its own reward!
Well, don't that beat all. I had a blue 59' Chev PU at the same time.
Why, I think I feel nostalgic now.........those were the days, weren't they? Can we get in the wayback machine for a while? Moonlight on the sparklin' snow........elk in the meadow out the window ...........the cracklin' fire in the potbellied stove......whisps of aromatic smoke risin' from a .............
By the way.....if you'll recall.....those were really tanks.
They just called them PUs.
Just because you could use the fender for an anvil?
Maybe it's simple sentimentality, but I still think those old stepsides were the mostest prettiest trucks ever built.Excellence is its own reward!
First,sweep and vacuum all debris,I wouldn't leave a speck of anything that could lead to future squeeks.Cork around the edges along the walls.cover with base moulding. 30 lb felt.Remember, water is your enemy when it comes to flooring.even though the wood is dead it will still absorb water as if it was alive on a microscopic level and over time spaces will appear between the planks, but the antique look is just that and if you want antique use cut nails. Second story is a plus for air circulation
Put the insulation in the joists in the garage (if you can) so you can not only insulate the floor but the garage too.
Be careful installing fir flooring. Someone from PETA is liable to dump red paint on it.
Is that fir? or fur???????