Hazletts’ Millwork and Window Shop!!
Just kidding folks
but seriously—— I have what will be—for me—a challenging project.
several wooden storm windows to build.
The most important is a ball buster of a window approx. 54″ wide x 82″ high—with an arched top.
I have the existing storm( very deteriorated)—from which to scribe/and or take measurements.
Currently planning to use the existing storm as a pattern—–scribing the outside arc. then I plan to build a simple jig which will allow me to laminate the arched section of the window. I am kind of eager to attempt this—as I have experimented with smaller arched laminations—in oak for tool tote handles etc.
1)If you see a propblem with this technique——PLEASE shoot me down
2) Please suggest a wood for this application. If I move fast , I have access to some incredibly clear,incredibly knot free—-and straight grained redwood in lengths up to at least 16feet.—would redwood be strong enough for this application?— will gluing up the redwood with it’s natural oils be a problem
BTW——the bottom portion of the window is a simple rectangle——the archtop is a semi circle with the bisecting chord composing the top of the rectangle.
thank you in advance for any/all suggestions
Stephen Hazlett
Replies
Sounds like a blast. You can easily do it.
If you are going to do a laminated arch with clamps, get as many clamps as you think you need and then double that. Beg and borrow as many as you can. The little 6" or 12" Jorgensen lightweight bars are good. There are some good ones on sale at Garrett Wade, 5 - 12" clamps for about 25 bucks. Anyway, build your form, slice up your laminating stock on a bandsaw or tablesaw (experiment with the thickness), and then clamp up the entire thing DRY to see how it goes.
One of the issues with those arches is trimming them so the edges are clean. There is no way to glue it up for a perfect edge, so you are going to be cleaning it up later. I have run stuff like that thru the tablesaw with a simple jig CAREFULLY, and sometimes across the jointer and thru the planer works too. Depends on the radius and on your tools.
Redwood is great. Do not use epoxy with redwood. Use resorcinol or guerrilla glue.
edit--gluing up the arch in a vacuum bag would the the method of choice if you have access to one.
Edited 7/21/2005 12:42 pm ET by davidmeiland
I have a couple round top windows in my 90 year old house. The arch on them appears to have been built by gluing up three or four segments that were joined or splined together. I don't know if that would be easier for you to do or not, but they seem to be holding up okay after all these years.
How wide is the arched rail? I'm assuming it must be wide in order to take the laminating approach rather than cutting from full thickness stock. If you have the original and its perimeter is in decent shape you might want to consider using it as a pattern for a pattern cutting bit in your router. For a full thickness storm it would have to be a big dog though.
thanks so far guys.
additional info:
the arched rail is 1 and 1/8" by 3 "---------radius---If I am measuring right---approx. 27".
I originally considered the segmented approach----but I figured laminateing would be stronger with the grain running continuos through the arch. the chord/top rail of the lower rectangle should prevent springback????
I had learned previously that with laminating these curves on smaller projects----the more clamping points the better--------resulting in a much more uniform curve.
So redwood will be strong enough?
And gorrilla glue is the way to go?
what about glass?????-----I suppose with luck I might re-use the existing 65 year old glass----but is there a better glass available-----lighter in physical weight ? safer?---more efficient etc.?
thank you,
stephen
any polyurethane glue, gorilla being one, will be what you want. They foam and expand making a mess but you'll have to trim it it smooth anyway, tablesaw for this; do it in multiple passes cutting each side one after the other until you reach finished thickness. If you go segmented, use the same glue with biscuits then route with a pattern cutting bit as mentioned, either the original as pattern or one traced onto and cut out of high density fiberboard(the dark brown stuff). Remember to dampen the glue surfaces with water prior to glueing. I've found that cutting all of the segments from one long board keeps the grain running through the joints fairly nicely.
Redwood should be strong enough but I would use half-lap or bridle joints instead of miters ( or mitered half-laps) again with the poly glue. You'll get a stronger frame that will resist opening at the joints for years. Redwood's lower density leaves it prone to pulling nails through at miters. I suppose a miter glued with poly glue might hold up but I'd be going out one a limb on that one.
Stephen
For a storm window I'd segment or glue up the redwood and swing the radius with a router, that way I'd get exactly what I wanted, no spring back. No "close enough".
This would be equally as strong as the laminated method.
Doug
I built a set of arch topped storms this winter. I used a Kreg pocket hole jig to assemble the frames (w/ galvanized screws). Worked great. Mine were 5/4" clear pine stock (redwood sounds much better). That big window will be fun (mine were all narrow). I put plastic chair leg thingamajigs on the bottoms to ensure an air gap below the bottom rail.
I'd second Doug's suggestion to segment the frame and trammel rout it out . If it is a true radius.
Jig saw the waste away, if ya don't have a bandsaw, and trim to the final size. A 1/2" spiral carbide upcut bit is a handy investment/
http://www.routerbits.com can get ya hooked up for about 50 bucks IIRC.
I have to admit, I feel a pang of jealousy, I am woodworker at heart and you appear to be a roofing pro...You are doing the woodworking, and hopefully, I'll be back on a roof come Monday..LOL talk about a switcheroo. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Existing window joins the arched rail to the vertical stile with a bridle joint. the male stile member continues probably 8 inches up into the arched area.
I must confess---my original impulse was the segmented approach. Then I began to think that the end grain to end grain glue joints in that approach would not be strong enough.---------Remember----this is a big window-----which will be installed/stored away TWICE a year---big and heavy.
the segmented approach wasn't sounding strong enough to me---what with the end grain joints and all.
I figured the laminated approach---connecting to the stiles with a bridle joint( really just a simpler lamination , eh?----would be much stronger.
Looking at the situation----54" wide window------I figure that the laminated approach would be stronger
However------if the window was smaller---the segmented approach would probably be simpler and sufficiently strong.
Please correct me on any of that if I am wrong-----don't tell me what I want to here----tell me what YOU think.
BTW----- the joints with the pocket hole jig????? I also thought of that as well---but also figured it would be simpler---but maybe not strong enough????
thank you so far folks.
but hey---what about the glass???
Stephen
Please correct me on any of that if I am wrong-----don't tell me what I want to here----tell me what YOU think.
I've used redwood for window bent lamination successfully. My radius was tight, maybe 7", so the plies were thin (x 5" wide). Resorcinol was, and is, my choice. After glueing, I cleaned up one side on my jointer, the other on the tablesaw. Same method, different wood, I used for my arched window and door frames here, up to 6½' wide, compound curves.
Bent lamination IMHO is clearly the way to go. It will be stronger. I've built, and tested, both methods. For my fixed redwood window bent lamination was overbuilding but both the customer and I much preferred the look. Other than preparing the jig, not particularly time consuming.
I don't see the glass as an issue. With a bent lamination you don't need a lot of wood, even with relatively weak redwood. You know the plies make it substantially stronger.
Have fun! PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
hey Sphere,
don't feel too bad
this isn't a paying gig
it's for my house.
It does bring me closer to what I envisioned doing professionally 18-20 years ago. I never thought I would have been roofing THIS long.
As I step slowly sideways out of roofing----I step back into THIS stuff.
Makes me wonder if there might be a limmited ,if fanatical, market for these---and how I might tap into it.
think I better take a lot of pictures, before, after, and during---to assist in selling to the old house restoration types.
At any rate---the window project is in the planning stages now----actual construction must wait until September. I have 3 slate topped end tables to build before the end of august(1cherry,1tiger maple,1 quarter sawn white oak)----the cherry one MUSY be completely finished by august 10th----so that I can go to Calvins august11th---and then deliver the table as a wedding present to a relative in PA august 12th.
Best wishes, Stephen-----and thanks for the help so far folks.
3 questions VA Tom-
1) I was actually planning to bend it the other way( looks like you are clamping to the inside radius of the jig---- I was planning to clamp to the OUTSIDE)----Is that a dumb idea---am I missing something ?
2) I know from past experiments more and thinner plies reguires less force to make the bend---- do you think that will make it stronger-----say 10 plys instead of 6?????
3) can I laminate it with say a 8 inch straight run---then the curve---then a 8 inch straight run---all in one ? the 8 inch straight sections would be inline with the vertical stiles.
Or would it be better to simply limit the laminations to only the curved area?
thanks---- Stephen
I think clamping to the outside of the jig is easier, but it can be done either way. I think the laminated arch will be WAY stronger than the buttjointed method. I did some laminations recently (3 pcs 1/2" plywood x 12" wide x 8' long) and they came out very rigid with very little springback. Done it before with various hardwoods, thin plywoods, veneers, you name it.
I would make the plies about 3/16" thick each... sometimes the deciding factor is what it takes to make them smooth after resawing (I have usually had access to a widebelt sander). You can definitely laminate the straight parts into the overall assembly... just make the form to match the result you want.
Stephen,
1) My jigs are always on the inside of the bend, clamping plies to the outside radius of the jig. Pretty sure if I wanted to do it the other way I'd be looking at 2 part male/female jigs, which will greatly simplify clamping if you make the effort. Firehoses full of air and steel bands both work great for pressure. I start clamping in the middle and work to the ends. This allows the plies to slip where they need to.
A concave jig is more likely to break the inside ply forcing, it into the curve. That's always the risk, but I think easier to control if the jig is on the inside of the curve (convex).
2) 10 plies are going to be stronger, but you're into greatly diminishing returns. The previous photo was 6 plies of about 3/16". Oak, which is going to be stronger than redwood, but I'd have to use my Caterpillar to break one. Even my 3/4x3/4" window stops are beyond what I can manually break, and they're tulip poplar (pic below). Below is also our kitchen door(s). I've posted it before, but not open. The smaller door is 48x87" with a standard insulated lite for a sliding door. Heavy sucker that swings very easily on ballbearing hinges.
3) Much better to laminate as large as you can, but the strips get very long. My larger door would have required 22' long strips. That's why I usually have a biscuited joint when I get to a straight run. For a very deep-pocketed particular customer, it would have meant getting some very long boards to resaw. Would suit me just fine. Don't forget that the inside strips on the curve will be considerably shorter than the outside ones. You need to plan extra length.
I never end the curve exactly at the end of the jig. Much easier to clamp, and later to join, if there's a short straight run already there. What I did here was to go from plies to solid for the straight runs. An economy measure.
The first pic showed a very simple jig, L shaped pieces of oak screwed to a sheet of plywood. The oak was positioned to both support the bend and give a place to seat a clamp. Scanned old print. The pieces are still sitting here awaiting reuse for whatever radius.
For the redwood window I used scrap redwood, none over 4' long so continuous strips weren't possible. I suggested the customer buy longer redwood to make the window more uniform. They pointed out it was going into a shower and weren't very picky. I've gotta get back there for a pic.
Don't forget, when you have a frame and a stop, they're different radii. I make one jig, to the smaller radius, and use the already glued work to get to the larger radius. For doors and frames, it means 4 different sizes. Planned correctly one jig will do.
You're gonna have fun. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Stephen
I'm not going to try to convince you that segmenting the wood would be a better idea, seams clear to me that you want to bend some wood, don't blame you, its fun.
But
I'm attaching a couple pictures, first one is a walnut door. The jamb is a bent lamination, the door which is not a segmented glue up, but would represent one in this case, will illustrate my point.
I wouldn't have thought of doing a bent lamination on the door just as I wouldn't have done a segmented glue up on the jamb.
I understand that you don't want to glue end grain to end grain but you can do a glue up with out end grain to end grain. I'm attaching a sketch to illustrate.
Good luck to you which ever way you do it. Curved work will spoil ya though, you wont want to do strait stuff again.
Doug
Doug,
I appreciate the thought you have given this.
In my mind---what I keep coming back to-------is that this project is a storm window----that's gonna be moved twice a year for the next 20 years. I would be much more inclined towards the segmented approach---if the priject was a jamb---or a casing---that once fabricated would be nailed in place and left alone.
In fact----I had thought of doing it as a segmented project with 2 layers----so the different segmented layers could be offset from one another---in effect a series of half lap joints.
You are right---that I AM inclined towards the laminated approach----strength being the chief concern
But I am also intrigued by what seems like a really efficient use of materials in the lamination technique.
the segmented approach( looking at your sketch) would produce a lot more scrap I think.
again---I do appreciate everyones input---that's why I said " Tell me what YOU think---not what you think I want to hear"-----no one so far has made a case for the segmented approach being stronger in this application--------- but I think a reasonable case could be made for the segmented approach being simpler and easier to successfully complete( always a KEY consideration for a dumb roofer like me!!!)
thanks---and best wishes,
Stephen
Stephen,I agree with you that bent laminated is more appropriate for a storm window. I've done a number of such arches in redwood, and wanted to let you know that epoxy works fine for the severest exposure short of immersion in boiling water. However, the PU is easier to work with, and strong enough for redwood.If you need the strength of denser species, you need to use resorcinol to bond them. Resorcinol is far more particular about how it is clamped and cured than either epoxy or PU. Also, its dark purple-brown glueline is very noticable on lighter woods.Do you intend to duplicate the bridle joint where the top rail meets the stiles? That sounds like a good way to go for strength without a lot of tricky machining. PU glue is perfect for joinery because it expands as it cures, and is flexible enough to accomodate movement in the joint arising from its cross grain alignment. Have fun!Bill
Yes Bill,
I am planning the bridle joint----although I think where the arched rail joins the vertical stile there will be much less cross grain situation than where the horizontal BOTTOM rail joins the same stile.
ultimately this will all be painted a flat brown---so visible glue lines will not be as big a problem
Stephen
Really nice door. Your glueup sketch, however, would have some pretty incredible movement unless it was quartersawn. And even then, less stable than segmented.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
And even then, less stable than segmented.
I'd have to disagree with you there. I have done this numerous times and I don't see any failure thus far.
I guess the sketch simplifies things somewhat but I have had very good success doing it that way. I'd maintain that it is stronger then segmented, but what do I know.
I think that there has to be some thought to the function of the product in order to determine which way is best for the job.
I would never consider bent laminate work for a arched door and I don't recall having any failure on any of the doors that I have built. I look at this as nothing more then a door....
Doug
I have done this numerous times and I don't see any failure thus far.
Right. Failure I didn't predict, only more movement. Less stable. San Marcos I don't know, but here where we experience huge humidity swings, wood moves a lot. Certainly can be a problem, especially with doors and windows. Your doors avoid the movement problems you suggested for the window.
The first exterior door I ever made, in the '70s, was a slab. It hasn't failed either, still used as a front door in a commercial building. Wasn't quartersawn and it sure did move, didn't stay flat. And that was in Denver where humidity change isn't an issue. A learning experience.
No idea what you have against bent laminations, but they clearly work well. Done carefully, the glue lines are not jarring, almost invisible. As lovely as your doors were, the joints were obvious. To my eye, the doors would have been nicer without the joints interrupting the otherwise beautifully flowing lines. Worth the extra effort? Depends on the client, and the length of production run.
But I've been told before here that "it's only a board". To each his own. And their clients.
Completely agree with you about experiencing curved work and not wanting to go back.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom
I've only lived down here in TX for a couple years, before this I lived in Iowa. I doubt you have any more humidity change there then IA does.
I have no problem with bent laminate work, I would guess that I have done some several hundred of them in the last few years, so there isn't a problem with how to do them or where they are appropriate.
And your suggestion that the doors I did would have been better with bent lamination would be one case of inappropriate use of a technique, at least in my opinion.
Joints in wood are part of the process, show me some of your work where you have no joints, I'd really be interested in seeing it. I don't look at joints as offensive, matter of fact I'd rather see a well made joint then a continuous slab of wood. Again, just my opinion.
Perhaps your confusing styles, cant imagine a traditional looking door with bent laminations, they would look great in your house, you have something else going on there then the traditional look. I doubt that the guy these doors were built for would of let me hang them with bent laminates.
I don't think I took short cuts by building the doors the way I did as opposed to the way you thought they should have been done.
Doubt I saved any "effort", but thanks for the concern.
Doug
stephen;
I would glue up segements, but I would use what I call a silly joint, super strong with lots of glue surface, joint reduces stress on joints. I would use cypress, and exterior tite bond glue. Good luck
Brisketbean,
I am embarrassed to admidt------ I was thinking about you yesterday. LOL
the idea crossed my mind that I hadn't seen your name here lately.
( Maybe you are hanging out in the tavern?--- apparently "they" don't let me in there anymore----and I sure ain't gonna BEG to join anyones super secret club to get in!!! LOL)
I would love to use the cypress on a project of some kind----but it's not really available hererom places that cary a bit of the exotics like teak or lace wood or purple heart.
how do you accurately cut that " silly joint" ?
also----I was wondering about the tightbond exterior---- I have used it with excellent success outdoors in the past-----but the gorilla glue seems to get a big push here.
does the tightbond have any advantages over the gorrilla glue---other than cost and ease of use?
Stephen
All,
This is new to me. This reply is not intended to correct or criticize any previous replies. (It is in addition too.) I found bending wood fun and interesting.
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I recently did a couple of bent wood projects. There is way more to it than meets the eye.
The door and window frames go quickly if you have a nice shop with a large band saw, and a large drum auto-feed thickness sander, planers, shapers, and space to work. For a typical full round arch it takes 9 layers/inch of thickness. Each strip is just less than 1/8” thick. The thickness is the first thing we did. Ripping and then sanding the pieces until they add up too, or barely under, the desired finished dimension.
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Then we glue. You will want glue that is exterior grade and will give you a little working time. It takes a little time to bend and clamp the strips. The glue needs to let the pieces slide easily for the first few minutes. Apply the glue in lines length ways. A little too much is better than not enough.
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The form jig is pre built on a worktable. The clamp braces are screwed to the arched line with just enough room that a clamp will fit between them and another clamp on them. (See pic). Thin equal thickness piece are place on the table to keep the arch from sticking to the table. They hold the arch up about a ¼”. First clamp goes in the center snugly. The next clamps go on the ends loosely and then a couple of intermediate clamps in-between loosely. Then smack the plies down with a hammer to get them as even as possible. Starting from the center clamp as tight as you can taking care to have even pressure across the material. Squeeze out should occur. Measuring the clamps top and bottom is very helpful. Let dry overnight. The arch is cut to width, and planed and profiled the next day.
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I did a 13’ 6” radius 4/12 Cedar beam recently and included a couple of shots of it. I could not have done this without having a friend in the business. I borrowed his shop for two days. In return I helped him get some work out. I am not the bent wood expert here but the above explanation was is a concise explanation of one way this pros did it. At least half the material was turned into saw dust to build an arch. This kind of woodworking is truly an art form. Thanks for the lessons Bill!
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Btw. For paint grade he uses Poplar.
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Good luck Stephen
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Regards to all, Richard
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really cool mr. jalepeno,
the procedure you describe is pretty close to what I have been planning.
I have done smaller projects where I put waxed paper or saran wrap on the clamping table to ensure I didn't glue the project to the jig !
Previous efforts were mostly oak tool box handles----- 1/4 inch plies---about 5 at a time.
what I learned from those experiences is that MORE plies and THINNER plies combined with as many clamping points as possible gives me the best contoll over the bend
I know what you mean about tapping those plies down flush!!!!!! I was never able to get every one perfect in line.
the bent piece will be about 3 " wide x a little under 1 and 1/2" thick----so I will probably bend the project in 2 "lifts"
Probably best to have a helper assist in gluing up all the plies quickly ?????
thank you SO much to everbody who has chimed in so far.
Stephen
I have a dumb question.Instead of using a form with a bunch of clamps why not just use two forms (outside and inside) and clamp the forms together?If you needed a 3/4" piece you could use a trammel and a 3/4" straight bit to cut your channel and it would be *perfect*, right?All the curved work I've done has been segmented and trimming after the glue up, or a variation like this project:Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Edited 7/24/2005 1:53 pm ET by Jon Blakemore
Jon
Instead of using a form with a bunch of clamps why not just use two forms (outside and inside) and clamp the forms together?
That's how I've bent a lot of my radius work.
Make a neg/pos jig and clamp them together. Takes a bit more time but sometimes that's necessary. If I was just making a radiused jamb I might just have the one jig, don't really care if the back side looks wavy, not going to see it. Sometimes it does matter so there is a need for the neg/pos jig.
Doug
Doug,I don't see why it would take any more time? Of course I've never done it either way to keep that in mind.I would think the easiest way to cut a form would be with a trammel. So instead of cutting on the outer edge of a piece of ply get a piece twice as big and cut in the center. I would think you spend a lot time tightening all those clamps, no?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
jon,
speaking from my extemely limited knowledge
I wouldn't build a male and female jig for a one time thing----unless it was an enourmous big money deal.
If I was going to make multiple units exactly the same----- I would certainly invest the time.
but for this project---that will easily fit on a piece of plywood
the jig---I think really is only going to be a well braced and flat piece of plywood---with the arc traced on it. Clamping blocks will then be screwed tangent to the arc.
all the clamps will be pretty well adjusted ahead of time before the glue up starts.
making the jig---as you suggest---could easily consume more time for me---than the rest of the project( well just about)
the actual clamping procedure doesn't bother me much at all. that's the one thing about this I do have tons of experience with
Back in a former life I was an electro plater.---most of my day was spent doing quite similar clamp-ups---------- clamping custom built lead anodes to a $500,000/11 ton plastic injection mold-----then picking the whole thing up with 2 overhead cranes----then lowering the whole contraption in to a vat of acid with about 1 and a half inches clearance front and back between the clamps and the tank wall----then making electrical connections and running about 9000 amps dc current through the whole mess
THIS project will be fun---and I won't contract cancer or lead poisoning in the process.
Stephen
Jon
The time to build pos/neg jigs doesn't take longer if you only want to go say 3/4" thick.
But, what if you want to make a bend that is say 1" thick but 8" tall. You cant do that with a piece of 3/4" ply.
It's like making two walls, mini walls, but none the less it takes time. You have to have two pieces of say MDF or particle board, then swing your arc through both of them and if we use the 8" tall wall that I used as an example above you need to make some blocks that are approx 7 1/2" tall(you'd want to make the jig a bit taller then your final height, and using the laminates a bit wider then there final widths, so that you can clean up the edges) Then depending on the radius that your bending you place the blocks, or shall we say studs, between the two pieces of ply that you swung the arc in and create two walls, or jigs. I mentioned the "depending on the radius" because if the radius is large you don't have to have the "studs" that close, if the radius is tight you'd need them closer.
That's probably one of the main reasons that I can think of that building pos/neg jig would take much longer.
Your right in assuming that if all you want is a 3/4" thick piece then it wouldn't take any longer, and you don't need as many clamps either.
Doug
You're right Doug.I was erroneously assuming that most projects would be around 3/4" or so.Thanks for the help.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The reason for not useing M/F forms is pressure. It takes a lot of force to move the whole glueup ,as apposed to one clamp at a time moving just a small segement a small amount. Then on a M/F mold you would have to use a lot of force on a few clamps , I see a severe case of carple tunnel . Then there is the unsuported segements that crop up at times . That is where cracks develop. Buy more clamps /you can never have too many clamps.
Stephen,
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I have a very limited level of experience too. So I hope I don’t mislead you or anyone to think otherwise. This is some other stuff I learned while helping out for a couple of days.
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I would think that if you didn’t have access to enough clamps to do it in the manner shown in my previous post that the two-piece form would be a good way to go. It can be done with less investment in clamps. The methods I’ve seen typically use 4 or 2 pipe/bar clamps depending on size and whether it was a half round or eyebrow. The bent wood guru I helped out recently told me for a really tight radius the two-piece form is the only practical way to do it. The number of pieces laminated is increased, as they are nearly paper thin.
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I also saw him using nylon boom straps on half round arches. (They were custom made straps. One belt sewn directly to the winch.) To use this method you have to use a solid form to keep from crushing the form. The nylon belt clamp method will pull off the screwed on “L” forms. The strap needs to be the same width as the pieces being laminated and are tightened with the assistance of a cheater bar. (Extremely Tight!) He always went past the halfway point with his materials and bends. This is not a method to use for eyebrow arches. For full round windows make two halves and glue together.
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He used generously applied cheap automotive paste wax on his clamp tables to make the glue cleanup easier. It will clean off with a 3’ scraper when dry. Also, there is always a reusable sacrificial piece on the outer side of the arch to keep the clamps from marking the arch.
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When making the casing pieces to fit the jambs use the same forms and add filler pieces to create the reveal. (Typically two 1/8” fillers for a ¼” reveal.) Also make the casing twice as thick as needed (for two at a time) and rip the bent wood arch in half on a band saw later to make two pieces.
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I am really just scratching the surface of everything that goes on in a bent wood shop. I’ll probably continue to help and learn just because it is so interesting and I’ve got a lot to learn.
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Btw, two people on glue up are practically mandatory. Especially if you're like me and new to it.
Richard
Speillin Eddit
Edited 7/24/2005 4:22 pm ET by MRJALAPENO
I'm impressed Mr Jalapeno!
blue
Edit: I forgot to say why I'm impressed. I used to love working with cedar, but the knots in it are large and it's usually hard to bend.
Edited 7/24/2005 7:50 pm ET by blue_eyed_devil
Thank you Blue. I’m happy to say the customer was too.
(Hey, that rhymes! I think I remember a thread for that.)Lol.
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But I happened to get a couple of pretty nice 4/12s to start with. Manually feeding them through the band saw was Le Bear! The bending part went pretty smooth.
stephen;
The best way to get the "silly joint" cut is to find someone with a cnc router and have them cut them for you, I have had serveral sets made for me of various widths, then you jigsaw close, and then pattern route to perfection. The cypress is probably easier to get than you think, it is cheap and I get it from my cabinet supply. If you don't have access to a cnc set up, email me and I will send you a pattern set.
Stephen, with all the ideas being birthed and and aborted, I am glad I did'nt mention just steambending some white oak...LOL Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Just to bump this up------
I don't have quite enough time to go into the details today----but the lamination process went fine
And I used only ONE clamp.
I will be assembling the rest of the window this week and maybe while the glue is drying I will have time to talk about how I did it.
It was pretty fun---and pretty simple.
stephen
gee, stephen... thought you retired after throwing out that first pitch..
where ya been ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
He probably blew out a wrist or elbow on that famous pitch and couldn't type. I was fretting over what had happened to him, yesterday. Glad to see he's back. He's got some intrests on Ocracoke, too. May have been down there. Everything OK, Haz?Birth, school, work, death.....................
There's always somebody MIA after a fest. Stephen just took it upon himself to volunteer because he knows I'm too much of a bull #### er to bow out. Good to have him back.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
You keep "#####" yer gonna be Rez's celly...you OK? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"We adore chaos, because we love to restore order"
Mauriets Chavailier Escher
I've been good.
So, you think the #### can get you a called strike.
I'm thinking it's just a bit outside.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Mike,
my mom and dad are both in and out of nursing homes and requiring a lot of attention, I bought a much larger house last spring that I am trying to tighten up a bit before snow, selling the old house, and my oldest son is looking at a college costing about 33K/ year------------
So I have been busy, LOL.
But actually----had A lot of fun at Calvins----left Calvins and drove to Boston( fantastic town).
while in boston I realized that as soon as I returned home my oldest son would be starting his last year in high school---and his last high school cross country season. I usually putz around here on breaktime anywhere from 5:30AM untill 8:00AM----and have done so for 8 years. while in Boston, I realized I had been missing the best time of the day with my family( MOM I don't have any clean socks--- Have you seen my book bag---who is picking me up after school----where is my Comp and Lit. book---I left it on the steps--------all that stuff)-------------
So I decided I wanted to make sure I grabbed the last year of all that stuff before Kevin heads off to college----and so you guys at break time are on the back burner for a while.
Also---I had some considerable problems getting re-registered here on break time the few times I tried since august 10 th.
stephen
BTW greencu, I already have a house rented for next summer on ocracoke. !
Edited 10/20/2005 7:43 am ET by Hazlett
stephen ... enjoy it while you can..
and next time in Boston... we're only 1 1/2 hours southMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thank you mike,
I tell you---I am really staggered by how fast the time went--------i went to virtually EVERY baseball game, track meet, XC race, school field trip, school play---you name it-------coached all the sports, took all the camping trips, ALWAYS put the customers second and the family first--------and it STILL went by in the blink of an eye. How does that happen?
Hey---if you get the chance----drive up to Salem---visit the Museum there---I think it's called the Peabody Essex. they have an entire house from some backwater province in China errected INSIDE the museum----you can walk through the whole house---really beautifull.
stephen
Ok folks----I have the time this morning---so here is what I did about fabricating the window.
sorry I don't have the ability to take or post pictures.
Basically I am a low tech guy looking for the simplest solutions
I braced a 3/4" plywood sheet flat.
using a decking screw---a thin strip of scrap wood with 2 appropriately located holes,---and a pencil---------I scribed the outside arc and the inside arc. with the arch scribed 180 degrees---I extended the inside and outside layout linesstraight down about 10inches. Just a continuation of the inside and outside arch lines but ---perpendicular to the 180degree base line----there by locating the vertical stiles of the window. I put several coats of boiled linseed oil on the surface of the jig to prevent glueing the assembly to the jig.
I cut some scrap 2x4 into blocks about 2 inches wide and screwed them tangent to the inside arch about every 3 inches. I also screwed a 10" block of 2x4 along the inside edge of the two stiles. Made another set of blocks, drilled pilot holes, got a bucket of shims and a box of screws ready----and kept 'em handy.
Out of redwood 10' 2x4-s I ripped a series of strips a little more than 1/8" thick and a little over 1-1/4 wide.
at this point I got my oldest son to lend a hand.
( As an aside---the son is considerably smarter than I---and much better with his hands. After developing an interest in Ceramics this year---he built his own pottery wheel, casting about a 240# kick wheel, mounting it on bearings,---he now throws pots on his own home built pottery wheel and is now experimenting with different glazes)
Any how---back to the window. Kevin and I line up all the strips of wood on plywood set on saw horses----the strips hang past the end of the plywood-----inconvenient ,but not that big of a problem. We each grab a throw away brush and a bottle of tightbond III which I chose primarily because of its longer open time.
We glued up all the strips, put 'em in order, and lifted 'em in one big, kind of floppy move over to the nearby jig.
We clamped the assembly with one clamp at the block tangent to the very top of the arch.
working as a team---we Clamped the rest of the arch----but we didn't really use any more clamps.
Basically my son would pull the assembly into position and I would screw a block down onto the plywood about a 1/4" from the outside arch---and then drive a wedge in between the block and the assembly.
We worked that way down both sides of the arch and on to the stiles pretty much from block to block. Because of the radius----the wedges didn't really interfere with each other.
total working time to this point was about 2 hours.
I let the glue set up for a couple of days---then before un-clamping---I made 2 reference marks on each " stile segment' to locate the half lap joints I would be cutting.
the clamps and the wedges came off just fine---and the boiled linseed oil prevented the arch from gluing itself to the jig. Used a beater chisel to scrape off the glue squeeze out. I used a hand plane to smooth out the inside and outside surfaces of the arch.
the arch is 55-1/4" wide.
Useing gorrilla glue---I half lapped(7" lap) the stiles to the arch---and I half lapped a bottom rail onto those stiles.
Window unit is about 82 inches high.
sunday---I will likely add a rail across the window at the bottom of the arch( as the original window had---and to small stiles as the original had)
Of course the whole thing has to be primed and painted----and I am still debating the glass vs. plexiglass issue.----to my surprise---glass is cheaper-----but sooooomuch heavier---quite an issue on a unit 55x82. plexi glass lighter and so much safer----but becomes somewhat opaque over time.
Best wishes all, Stephen
BTW---I used the wedges instead of clamps because the wedges didn't interfere with the jig the way my clamps ( leftover from a previous metal working career) would have.
Edited 10/22/2005 7:55 am ET by Hazlett
Excellent approach, congrats. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Its MINE, I'll wash it as fast as I want"