Help: What did our contractor do wrong? Flooded Barn.
We paid a significant amount of money to a reputable contractor in our area, (who is actually in my view a good guy), to build us a large barn on our property.
The barn came out great, and appears to be of high build quality. Unfortunately, this spring when the snow melted, the barn filled up with four inches of water. (See photos).
The barn is located near the bottom of our driveway, which is also at the bottom of a hill.
When the barn was built, we had an excavator pitch the grade around the barn down a decent amount in order to make sure that water flows away from the barn (but the back is at the bottom of a hill). Obviously, something has gone wrong.
I am not a contractor, but my immediate thought is that he simply built the barn too low, below grade, and there’s little we’re going to be able to do to prevent this from happening every time the snow melts.
His explanation is that we should have cleared all of the snow around the barn, but where we live, we got around 4 feet of snow this year, and shoveling the perimeter of a huge barn every nor’easter sounds crazy to me.
We have owned many buildings, and never had to keep a buffer “no snow” zone. And realistically, will not be able to do so with this barn.
Can someone offer us some advice on what we should do? Should we consult another contractor or an engineer?
Thanks for any advice.
Replies
I would say you need to be sure that snow doesn't dam up the water near the barn.
I'm guessing that snow was plowed up around the barn, making it worse than it would have been if left totally alone.
Add perimeter drainage around the outside of the building. Dig a shallow trench, use fabric to prevent the stone from silting up. Fill the trench with stone and perforated pipe in a fabric sock. Have the pipe drain to daylight if possible. If daylight not possible, dig a sump pit so it can drain into there. That should prevent water from getting into the barn.
If that's all a no-go, then to simply deal with water in the barn I'd chunk out a bit of the slab, bury a sump can with sump pump, and use that. You might even be able to do that behind the barn.
There's also the simewhat passive diversion approach, building a berm around the back and sides of the barn to direct the water elsewhere.
Any of the ideas will require a good understanding of your site's topography.
Your first issue is to determine where the water entered the building. You can't fix a problem when you don't know the root cause. If you have water coming in over the top of the six inch or so raised foundation, thats a hell of a lot different than if it is coming in under the garage door. Secondly, despite what you said about grade, it looks like there is a berm within two feet or so behind the barn and it doesn't look to me like the grade to the left of the barn slopes away...at best it looks level.
++ to what mongo and cussnu2 said. In addition, a grated trench drain is an easy to install feature in front of the garage doors. That will intercept any runnoff from entering the building there. Drain it to daylight or into an infiltration bed.
A competent contractor would have forseen any drainage issue and built to accomodate. Had he not realized the degree of snow runnoff, he would now be suggesting some practical remediation. He would not be telling you that its your fault because you didn't clear snow. That's just crazy talk. I wonder what it is about this contractor that makes him a good guy.
It's hard to tell for sure with the poor picture, but it appears that, for 4" of water to accumulate inside, the water would have had to be standing about 8" high to the left of the entrance there. For that much water to accumulate there had to be something damming it up. What was damming it up?
(I disagree with Sapwood's comment. It's the property owner's responsibility to take reasonable measures to asssure that suitable drainage is maintained in the face of snow, leaves, etc.)
Dan: "It's the property
Dan: "It's the property owner's responsibility to take reasonable measures to asssure that suitable drainage is maintained in the face of snow, leaves, etc."
I would agree with you there if the contractor had built in some facility for drainage. Things such as entry trench drains, internal floor drains, and exterior catch basins all require the homeowner to assume responsibility. But who is responsible for installing those devices in the first place? And who is responsible for proper exterior grading and drainage control decisions? Well, one could argue that the "buck stops" with the homeowner but in many cases that owner is wholly dependent on their contractor for advice. From what the OP has written, it seems to me that his contractor didn't adequately anticipate snow runnoff. In fact, he blew it so badly that now the barn holds 4" of standing water.
I wonder how far back from the building the homeowner would have to remove the snow in order to eliminate water entry? Four inches of standing water suggests the distance would be substantial (and, unreasonable).
The floor of the barn appears, from what I can make out in the picture, to be several inches above the "ground" to the left of it. This means a substantial amount of water had to be standing OUTSIDE the structure. It appears that the area to the left should drain into the driveway, so presumably the ability to drain to the driveway was prevented by snow piled there.
But like I said, the picture is insufficient to be certain of any of this.
Dunno about where you live, but around here it's pretty much necessary to "patrol' your property most springs (this one being a odd exception) to clear any dams that might form in bad locations. What happens can be remarkably different from one year to the next.
Thank you to all of you for chiming in. I'll take some of these suggestions to the contractor as possible fixes.
I believe it's the contractor's responsibility in this situation to make sure the barn doesn't flood, especially given we paid a significant amount of money for him to bring in heavy equipment and grade the land around the barn. We actually even had them come back (we insisted) because looking at it we felt that there was not enough pitch away from the barn.
I'm going to insist that he fix the problem. We will certainly be more aggressive in clearing snow around the front of the doors, but to be fair, our neighborhood is filled with "snowbirds" who all have garages that they leave socked in 3-4 feet of snow all winter (no plowing whatsoever, unlike ours) while they're in Florida (some built by this same contractor), and none of them have a swimming pool in their garage/barn come spring, that I know of.
I can only speak for myself, but If I took someone's hard earned money to do a job like this, I would make it right. I hope he'll do the same.
Thanks again for chiming in folks.
advice please
Why didn't the water drain out through the open garage doors? I think that we're in for more winters like we had 20-30 years ago. Ugh.
Yep, no garage door is capable of holding water several inches deep. If there was not a blockage outside the door then there would have been no problem. My guess is that snow was plowed up against the door, forming a dam.
Seems to me this is a chicken and the egg problem, right? Yes, the snow at the garage doors dammed up the water from flowing out. But the problem is the water flowing in in the first place. As I said, a number of the garages around our neighborhood were also socked in with snow--but none of them were full of water.
We also got a significant amount of water coming into the barn this fall, without snow damming anything. Nowhere near four inches, but a significant amount in the front right corner.
Water seeks its own level...meaning for there to be four inches of water INSIDE the building, there had to be four inches of water standing outside the building somewhere.
Just how many times did you drive up and down your driveway completely oblivious to 4 inches of water standing up around your barn?
You still haven't answered the question about where the water came in from. You can't expect to fix a problem if you don't know what caused the problem in the first place. Your contractor isn't God who knows all and sees all. You can't go to the doctor and tell him your foot hurts without also telling him you have a rock in your shoe.
How much snow did you plow off of the driveway and pile up around your barn?
BTW, even if you do cop an attitude with the contractor and he knuckles under and puts in drain tile to daylight, its no promise you won't do something dumb like plow snow over top of the drain tile and block it up causing the same problem again. Something caused 4 inches (likely more) to pond up outside your barn and you are completely clueless as to what despite driving past it several times a day.........................................
@cussnu2
Relax, guy.
First of all. there is not "four inches of water standing up around my barn". Yes, water seeks it's own level. However, it is also subject to being contained by solid objects, or barriers. Are you familiar with how a bucket works, for example?
At no point has there been water ponded up around the barn. The interior of the barn is the pond. Again, the water was contained by exterior snow and ice, and the walls of the barn. The melting snow and ice flowed into the barn, most likely under the large doors. At that point, it could not flow out, because it confronted solid objects--the walls and remaining exterior snow and ice.
Also, we noticed and notified the contractor of the problem immediately, we didn't drive past it blissfully four times a day, as you suggest. We do not use the property much during the winter. Two other buildings on the property were also snowed in, one of which has sliding barn doors on it. Neither of those two buildings had a swimming pool in it. Why? Because they were built above grade, with proper consideration for drainage.
But yes, obviously the problem is attributable to us "doing something dumb".
Go troll somewhere else.
What you don't understand is anything about water and hydrostatic pressure. Water cannot build up inside your building to a level higher than the water outside the building because it will always seek its own level. The water outside the building cannot force water into the building above the level it reached outside the building. The only way water inside the building could have ever been higher than the max level of the water outside the building is if the water was coming from inside the building.
Your bucket example only proves your ignorance. The only reason a bucket retains more water inside it than outside of it is because the water is not free to flow out of the bucket. Unlike a bucket your garage does allow water to freely flow from one side to the other. The proof being that you got water inside your garage in the first place. If water was able to travel into your building, it is able to travel out of your building as well. Take your bucket and put a hole in it. Set it in a tub of water and you will find the water never rises above the level of the water in the tub. Let the water out of the tub and you will find the water in the bucket drains back to the point of the hole. The fact that water stays in the bucket to the level of the hole while the tub around it is now empty does not negate the fact that the tub was once filled with water at or above the level of the hole.
I don't know how to explain this to you in a more common sense way than I already have. You believe at some point that water formed a pond around my barn. I tell you that was not, and never has been the case.
"If water was able to travel into your building, it is able to travel out of your building as well". --Unless it is prevented from doing so by...[drumroll]... say, the opposing force of gravity (caused by a change in pitch from melting ice", or even a physical barrier, like accumulated ice. This is basic common sense. No analogy needed. Water flows downhill--gravity prevents it from flowing back uphill.
In any event, this dialogue is entirely non-productive for me. Some folks were kind enough to offer helpful suggestions--you took an alternate route and decided to be rude to a complete stranger, though I have no idea why.
I'll have a conversation with the contractor, and I suspect we'll work out a solution like civilized people, and that he'll stand behind his work. The only one choosing to "cop an attitude" to use your language, appears to be you.
Have a nice day.
Delusion 101
The homeowner's comments here are delusional. He has water from melting snow flowing into the barn doors, but also water being blocked from flowing out of the barn doors by snow and ice. Which is it homeowner?
Maybe he'll tell us that is flows in (under the snow mind you) while it is warm enough to build up to 4" deep inside the barn (and, as cussnu2 says, it would have to be 4" deep outside and under the snow)...and then instantly freezes outside at the threshold line (but mysteriously not inside) in order to contain the water like a sealed bucket. If that's not delusional, then I don't know what is.
Also, the only attitude here is from the original poster who states "what did our contractor do wrong". Clearly the blame has already been predetermined without an understanding of why the problem is happening. I'm with cussnu2 who questions: Where is the water coming from? This has yet to be stated. Anyone else conjecturing about this source (besides the homeowner who has the facts) is wasting their breath.
So you admit that there was 4" of water standing in front of the structure? With natural snowfall that hadn't been plowed around it would be exceedingly rare for the snow to be so impervious that water could build up behind it like that, so it must have been plowed there, right?
I'm guessing that that structure was put at that height so that it would be reasonably flush with the adjacent driveway.
Also, you've really told/shown us very little about the surrounding terrain. It may be that the contractor did the best he could with the conditions at hand.
Advice
Trade the snow mobile for a jet ski.
Here's a thought that could be titled under "What did the homeowner do wrong?
There appears to be a slop sink and faucet in that barn. If the barn is unconditioned and the supply is not secured from freezing, then an interior sourced water leak may be the culprit. A small leak from a burst pipe may not be readily apparent, but could result in the interior photo orignially posted; particularly if the building is not used very much during the winter as indicated.
Deadnuts.
One of the homeowners is a plumber. It's not an interior water leak, trust me. The building is winterized long before a freeze. Your assumption in this, as in everything else, is not even close to the mark.
The culprit is meltwater and rain channeling into the barn. The question was if people knew of efficient ways to deal with and/or prevent this.
A few other quick points: snow melts from the top, where the sun hits it, not from the bottom. So no, water did not flow under the snow.
I am telling you there is not four inches of water around the barn. What part of that you can't understand is beyond me.
No doubt if you and I were sitting down to a normal conversation over a beer, or if you were standing in front of the barn with me, you would understand what I'm talking about. It's really very simple. I'm sorry that you don't, and that it frustrates you.
Perhaps you can find a new conversation to participate in elsewhere, with a less "delusional" OP?
Have any of the OP's critics even considered that the floor of the barn might be below exterior grade?
From the (admittedly poor) picture it appears that the floor is several inches above grade. This has been stated as a presumption several times and the OP has not contradicted it.
If there was not 4 inches of water around the barn, how did water get into the barn? Through the roof?
(And you apparently know very little about how snow melts.)
You are right. I have been lying to all of you this entire time. The barn is located in the center of a pond. I thought it would be fun to have a moat to keep out intruders.
Darnit, I thought for sure I could trick all of you by giving you false information. But that DanH... he is not a man to be fooled. Nothing gets past him.
Rust bucket
Nice toolboxes you have in that barn. Is that rust I hear ratteling around inside them? Damn.
No deadnuts, rust seeks its own level. For there to be rust in the toolbox, there would have to be rust outside of the toolbox.
God, where have you been this whole conversation?
Water Woes
First of all, the contractor gave you a lame solution which you obviously caught the minute he came up with a way to avoid any type of meaningful solution. Shovel the snow from around the building? If he thinks the snow has to be cleared around the barn every time it snows, see if he will come help you do that, yeh right!
Just from looking at the smaller outside picture, I do see that the land slopes towards the rear of the barn. I would assume that there is some sort of distance between the finished grade in the rear and the top of the slab? I can't tell but is the barn slab below grade in the rear and was there a retaining wall built onto or part of the stem wall? If not which I assume there isn't one, then did the contractor create a brough ditch for drainage behind the barn? In other words, a ditch say 5-6 feet from the rear where the grade slopes away from the barn into the ditch and then drains around to the sides and eventyally drains away towards the front? When it rains or the snow melts the moisture slopes away form the structure into the ditch and then flows around the back and away from the building on one side or both. If the land behind the barn slopes directly towards the barn and not away even though the finished grade is below the slab, enough moisture (melting snow) could concievably soak under the slab, if not directed immediately away.
Do you have any cracks in the slab or control joints that have cracked? Freezing and thawing water under the slab could cause ground heave beneath causing cracks which is a void for water to enter.
It appears from the photo that the front of the barn is built up well enough that water shouldn't be getting in from that side.
Is the water the same depth through-out the garage, or is it deeper in the back. In other words is the slab level?
Can you post pic's of the back and a current photo of the front? A full side view would be great showing the front and the back.
Aside from the grade issue, it appears from the photos that the roof looks fine. Have you seen any signs of moisture on the interior walls at all? Up near where the wall meets the roof structure?
Sorry for your dilema, hope you find a solution!
I'd guess the water is coming out of the hill behind the barn. Since from your pictures it looks like the barn floor is higher than the ground in front it would seem that an ice dam is the only thing keeping the water in.
Update
Thank you to the folks that were kind enough to offer advice.
It has been about a year, so I thought I would provide an update, in case someone with a similar issue read this. This fall, we had the contractor come back, and despite his protests, re-grade the area around the barn with some heavy equipment.
We had the worst winter on record here in New England, and did not shovel around the barn once, as we were away all winter.
The grading corrected the problem, and we did not get any water in the building.
ap
Thank you for returning!
.
Save the Coke machine!
I passed on the browbeating comments for several days unitl I realized why I kept looking again. The key... It's in a coke machine! Just like mine.TMI to be sure.
For professional answers to qualified questions never throw your contractor under the bus in the opening question. What did he do wrong? Bottom of the drive, Bottom of the hill, 4' of snow... He should have wrapped it in pool liner with no doors.
An exit strategy for the water that was obviously going to present itself in certain situations seems to be all that is missing. I can't say that he did anything "wrong". It apears from the pictures that he is just not done, given the unforseen weather situation. I mean, surely there was never 4' of snow satnding there before the barn. You would have told him that, right. How could he have designed for that. I'm sure that a Good Guy who knows the project can find a solution. Be prepared to take some of the financial responsibility though. He may not have Done Wrong.
Kind of hard to address a problem when misinformation is contained in the O.P.
"When the barn was built, we had an excavator pitch the grade around the barn down a decent amount in order to make sure that water flows away from the barn".
Turns out that wasn't the case.
You just can't help yourself, eh?
I said in the first post that I thought "he simply built the barn too low, below grade". Turned out I was correct, and after I made him come back and regrade the area, the problem stopped.
You thought it was the slop sink, because you are a moron. You chimed in today, again, because you are a troll.
Anyway, I tried to leave a final post for anyone having a similar problem, as a standard internet forum courtesy. Now I will delete my account.
The real problem is a malcontent homeowner that thinks he knows it all.
As for posting your "solution":
"This fall, we had the contractor come back, and despite his protests, re-grade the area around the barn with some heavy equipment."
You mean he graded as you said he did in your original post? If that was the case, then you never would have had to waste everyone's time with what turns out to be a ridiculous post.
Contractor with experience can help
Try to go with a Licenced Contracor for this as I think there are coupl of mistakes that are need to get done. Becasue If you are looking for answers from a untrained person you might get your floring spoil.
Should use the same Licenced Contracor who screwed it up in the first place?