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porch remodel

sxPYmJzmbt's picture

porch remodel (post #192736)

sxPYmJzmbt on Mon, 08/23/2010 - 09:45
in

I am remodeling a back porch that was closed in 20+ years ago.  The "builder" that did it sat a 2 x 4 base plate directly on the concrete porch floor.  Over the years water has migraged under the plate and door (it just sets on the concrete) and damaged the particle board and floor.  I want to take out the walls and put some sort of concrete or water proof foundation to set my new walls on.  I also plan on taking the fall out of the interior concrete floor with self leveling concrete and tiling over that.  Has anyone done this and do you have any suggestions on what to use to get the plate off the concrete?  The house is 80+ years old.

-A +A

Concrete brick. (post #192736, reply #1 of 10)

by DanH in reply to sxPYmJzmbt [original] on Mon, 08/23/2010 - 14:05

Concrete brick.


We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. --Thomas Edison

Porch Wall Reconstruction (post #192736, reply #2 of 10)

by Ron_Trebbi in reply to sxPYmJzmbt [original] on Tue, 08/24/2010 - 01:26

Trying to understand your conditions:

It sounds like the slab is continuous on both sides of the frame wall.  If so, does it pitch toward the wall piling water against the wall where the slope of the slab needs to be changed?  Or are we looking at seeping  and weather driven water coming under the wall and rotting it out?

Assuming the slope is in the right general direction and weather driven moisture, How about pressure treated baseplate, set in self adhesive roll roofing shot or anchor bolted to the slab, pressure treated plywood sheathing held up 1/2" off  the slab for the first row of wall sheathing and a Hardi or pressure treated 1x base to whatever your exterior finish is.  On the inside you could install a PT 1x base ripped to the thickness of your interior finish and then thick set the new tile floor.  Self leveling concrete for a small porch could be really expensive.  The door can be hung these days in pressure treated frames or fiberglass frames, both of which will survive weather driven moisture.  A threshold at the door /  thick set tile transition may be enough to clean up the door installation.  

If the first project survived 20 years and none of the material was pressure treated, you may just be a the end of the expected life for poor construction.  If the weather is extreme or water is constantly standing against the walls of this porch, masonry and re-sloping the slab may be required ... Lets hope not ... Good luck

Ron

RON

Ronald G. Trebbi

Architect  /  General Contractor

TREBBI CUSTOM CONSTRUCTION LLC

Award Winning Design and Construction of Residential and Light Commercial Renovations and Additions

Porch Wall Reconstruction (post #192736, reply #3 of 10)

by sxPYmJzmbt in reply to Ron_Trebbi [original] on Tue, 08/24/2010 - 06:15

Ron

Thanks for the reply. As you stated the slab is continuous on both sides. It is pitched so the water really only becomes an issue in the winter when snow blows on the ledge and in the spring with wind driven water. I have had one suggestion on concrete brick but your idea seems easier and quicker. The current 2 x 4 (the other side it 3 pieces of porch bead) is still somewhat intact so I am sure the treated with some sort of seal would out last me. I have to take up about 2 inches in the floor from one end to the other. I have not worked with thick set or tile for that matter. Can I make up 2 inches? I plan on looking up some past issues of Fine Home Building and studying them.

Dan

2" is no problem to thick set the tile (post #192736, reply #4 of 10)

by Ron_Trebbi in reply to sxPYmJzmbt [original] on Tue, 08/24/2010 - 15:18

Dan,

Glad to be of help.  Concrete brick seems complicated to me too.  The tile is one of the last things you'll do with this project so you have some time to figure out thick set ... It is a technique rather than a product. It is used primarily to set stone so it is perfectly level with no lippage.  Here in South Florida, it is typically done with a combination of stucco, bonding agent and thinset.  Let me know if you run into problems finding info on thick set or mud set tile installations.  

Good Luck

Ron

RON

Ronald G. Trebbi

Architect  /  General Contractor

TREBBI CUSTOM CONSTRUCTION LLC

Award Winning Design and Construction of Residential and Light Commercial Renovations and Additions

Reply on Porch project (post #192736, reply #5 of 10)

by sxPYmJzmbt in reply to Ron_Trebbi [original] on Wed, 08/25/2010 - 11:51

Ron,

   Thanks for the help.  One thing I was thinking on adding would be a layer of Hardie backer board between the concrete porch and the treated plate.  Any thoughts.

                                      Dan

Long winded response (post #192736, reply #7 of 10)

by Ron_Trebbi in reply to sxPYmJzmbt [original] on Wed, 08/25/2010 - 18:40

 

Dan,

Two thoughts for you:

Geoff, who posted a response before me, describes the appropriate way to detail the base plate, sheathing and siding if the edge of the slab and the edge of the wall are in the same plane.  I didn’t think that was your primary condition but if it occurs, maybe on a side wall, his description is spot on how to construct the new wall and water proof the door.  He also gave a better description of ‘thick set’ than I gave you and I didn’t think about a shower floor but that is exactly how it is done.  GREAT EXAMPLE GEOFF!!  Some times that tile process is called dry set or mud set.  I think he already said that.

Other thought:

If the slab extends beyond the wall, I suggested you use double sided peel and stick roll roofing below the base plate and anchor bolt or shoot the base plate down through it.  That material is made by all the major roofing companies and is self adhered on two sides.  See link to what we buy locally or this is a similar product.  Fine HomeBuilding recently published an article about using it in place of copper door and window pans for flashing.  I’ve used it in conjunction with copper pans for doors and windows and recently did my first window installation without the copper pans and I am not at all worried about it leaking. 

Typically here in South Florida, where water infiltration is a major concern, our frame wall / slab connections are constructed like Geoff’s example.  We generally just set the base plate in a full bed of Vulcum (brand name - really great caulking) and anchor bolt it to the slab.  The Vulcum works fine since there is no standing water against the wall.  In your case I am suggesting the roll roofing as an upgrade to Vulcum. 

Were you thinking the Hardi Backer would aid in waterproofing?  Generally, although concrete is dense, it is actually more similar to a sponge than a water barrier.  If you were thinking it would provide additional protection to the pressure treated base plate, It probably will, but pressure treated lumber has a half life (not really, but almost) – It will probably out last you, is designed for this installation and eliminates one joint for water to pass / absorb through. 

This is an awful long winded answer to a simple question you posed to me.  Hope it helps … if you run into some real problems, email or call me and I’ll sketch you a detail.

Good Luck

RON

Ronald G. Trebbi

Architect  /  General Contractor

TREBBI CUSTOM CONSTRUCTION LLC

Award Winning Design and Construction of Residential and Light Commercial Renovations and Additions

That is what I thought (post #192736, reply #9 of 10)

by sxPYmJzmbt in reply to Ron_Trebbi [original] on Fri, 08/27/2010 - 09:16

Ron,

That is what I though about the backer board. I will stick with the roofing material and the treated plate. I just need to stop water from migrating under the plate and door. If any one knows about water it would be someone from Florida

                                                              Dan

Question ... does the slab (post #192736, reply #6 of 10)

by Geoffrey in reply to sxPYmJzmbt [original] on Wed, 08/25/2010 - 14:27

Question ... does the slab extend beyond the exterior of the walls? If not , set your PT bottom plate flush to the edge of the slab, sheathing and siding should extend down the wall beyond the slab about 1 1/2"....assuming your slab is at least 8" or more above grade all the way around. When you get to your door, install a sill pan, then set your door in that. that should resolve your water intrusion problem all around.

Someone mentioned "thick set" , I'm not familiar w/that specific term, but from the description, it is a form of what I call "dry pack" which is simply mortar mixed with only enough water to allow the mortar to "clump" or form a ball if you grab a fi[ACRONYM FOR A JOBSITE SENTENCE]ll of it, but it will break apart if you were to toss it to the ground, tile is installed on that surface, typically it's used in showers to achieve a slope for drainage, but you could certainly use it on the porch for leveling.


 Geoff

Porch Remodel (post #192736, reply #8 of 10)

by sxPYmJzmbt in reply to Geoffrey [original] on Fri, 08/27/2010 - 09:13

Geoff,

The slab extends beyond the wall and that is the problem. I think the treated plate and roofing material will work. The slab is raised 2 plus feet above the ground and there is a large overhang so moisture is only issue in winter and spring. I just need to stop water from migrating under the plate. Thanks for the clarification on the thickset issue.

                                                                       Dan

What I've done in the past is (post #192736, reply #10 of 10)

by DanH in reply to sxPYmJzmbt [original] on Fri, 08/27/2010 - 16:27

What I've done in the past is to create a small triangular fillet of thinset right up against the plate (though perhaps with a piece of tin or such tacked in place to separate the masonry from the wood).  The thinset molds nicely and adheres well to the concrete slab.


We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. --Thomas Edison