I’m a serious DIYer living in a T1-11 sided house built in 1978. Most of the horizontal seams between the sheets of the T1-11 are properly flashed and trouble-free. However, on the outside of some portions of the house, it appears that whoever built it had the ridiculous idea of visually breaking up the two stories of the house by nailing 1×8 pine trim pieces over the seam between the first and second floor.
When woodpeckers started working one of the trim pieces this fall, I removed the trim to discover that the T1-11 had completely rotted where it was covered by the trim piece. Even worse, when I chiseled the rotten portions away, I discovered that the rot had penetrated the rim joist underneath. The rim-joist span is about 20 feet or so, and I probably need to replace about three-quarters of it. This is not a load-bearing wall. (The floor joists run parallel to the rim joist.)
What I’m wondering is: can I do this section-by-section to avoid any jacking of the top floor? The floor is showing no signs of sagging, and at its worst the rot probably affects half the width of the joist. What is the largest span of joist I could safely cut out without having the floor above it sag, preventing me from getting a new section in there? My hope is to replace as much of the joist as I can, fill the space previously occupied by the T1-11 with 1/2″ rigid-foam insulation, then properly flash a new trim piece. (Oh, yeah: the original trim pieces seem to have been painted AFTER they were installed; I’ll paint all six sides of the new ones before putting them up.)
Sorry, I don’t have pics, but I will try to take some this week. I’m not home much during daylight hours during the work week, unfortunately.
Thanks,
Norman
Replies
Double up the rim joist
The best way to do it is from the interior side of the wall remove the ceiling and install a new rim joist or a joist above the existing double plate on top of the wall and push it as close as possible to the rotten rim. Make sure this joist is fits tight above the double plate to properly support the plywood and studs above it.
Next remove the rotten rim joist in sections of 4' , replace it with a new one, pressure treated, and you are done.
I dunno, CHM
I would do that without ever going inside the house. Remove siding as necessary to expose the rim, start taking it out in sections, installing blocks of 2x behind the plane of the rim joist to keep the subfloor up where it belongs (there could definitely be plenty of weight on this wall), and then put in a new length of rim. It will take some careful work to connect the rim to the building..... there are nails connecting the rim to the top plate of the wall below, nails thru the subfloor into the top of the rim, nails thru the bottom plate of the wall above into the subfloor and rim, etc. The value of all these nails has to be replaced, and ultimately it might require removing a little more siding than you really want.
Thanks, but another question
Thanks so much for your responses. I'd obviously like to avoid tearing up the ceiling inside the house if at all possible.
David, do I just leave the 2x's in place permanently? Also, I assume I'll be toenailing most of the nails, as I don't see how I can hammer the new joist from above or below. I was also thinking of using construction adhesive wherever possible on the new joist.
I looked at the joist this evening again, and I think I really only have to replace about four feet of it. If I do that, how do I splice the new section to the existing joist? Construction adhesive and toenailing?
Thanks again to both of you for offering your insights.
There's
only so many toenails you can put in perpendicular to the grain before you're just breaking the edge of the board off. Toenailing is mostly parallel to the grain, and the end of a board.
If you can't expose enough of the other framing to get some nails in there in the usual ways, you might want to start clipping and strapping stuff together with Simpson stuff. Truth is, though, you need to get the wall plates exposed and once you do that you're probably just taking off full sheets of siding. Framing repairs/modifications on T1-11 houses are pretty gory... a lot more siding comes off than the same thing done on a house with lap siding. I guess you can be glad you don't have stucco.
Thanks again. I know what you mean about the T1-11. Ripping off this trim, I was shocked when I realized that the sheets are the only thing between the framing and the outdoors. I've concluded that the house is built really like a big shed. I'll never buy another T1-11 house again, but this was our starter home, and it's in a terrific spot abutting lots of protected woods.
I'm realizing there are a lot of ways I can approach this job. If I were staying in the house for a while, I'd have a contractor put housewrap over the T1-11 (making sure the sheets are still dry and intact), add a layer of rigid-foam insulation, and probably side it with fiber-cement siding, casing out the windows—a lot of them need to be replaced anyway—to fit.
But because our family situation is changing soon, I'm planning to sell the house next year. So I'm going to minimize this job. Most of the rot is superficial, and I've chiseled back to good wood. The structure isn't even close to being compromised. There's only a small area where the rot has penetrated perhaps half an inch into the rim. I think I'm going to scab a small piece of pt wood in there, nail half-inch rigid-foam insulation to the rim to fill the area previously occupied by the rotted base of the T1-11, fill any gaps with expanding-foam insulation, then flash and caulk the new trim pieces over that. That should keep any new moisture out, giving the new homeowner ten years before having to get back in there.
Not ideal, I know. Because I'm a perfectionist, it pains me to do it this way, but I'd rather put the money into whatever house I buy next year.
Love your website, by the way.
splice rim joist
First, I think you out to replace the whole joist if you possibly can. It will never be easier than now. Cut small sections and set set short 2x blocks inside the joist line and add one piece PT replacement. If you have to patch it in, I would place 2' 3/4"plywood peices half laped behind cut endsand screw down with deck screws, Next, ad your new section of PT joist and drive more deck screws. Toenail up and down into sub floor and top plate. Tuck some 30# felt under T-111 and z flash top and bottom of cut out siding. Do as neat a job as possible and resist the temptation to trim over these joints. you already know what that will do.
Chris
Thanks, Chris. Very helpful and clear explanation. What I really need is scaffolding to get the new PT joist in there. Even with a helper, I seem to be spending most of my time moving ladders.
I'm curious about the felt. Do you prefer that over Tyvek? I know some folks have reservations about housewrap, so I'm courious about your preference.
Norman
replace second floor rim joist
I know this post is four years old but I hope I can get a response. I am replacing or needing to replace some rim joist on my second level where there was a deck attached improperly causing water rot to the joist and about five feet of outside wall sheeting. The acutal wood rot doesn't appear to go thru but is of concern. I noted you had stated to remove the joist in sections putting 2X behind the plane of the rim joist to keep the subfloor up then put a new length of rim. I have a question as to whether The piece of 2X4 is left in place or do you remove it as you continue on with the repairs thereby filling with rim. I am attaching photo's of the repair I am doing. I will be removing the sliding glass door and putting a double 3.0X5.0 window in and framing in about two feet below the window. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You.
Great point.
There are only two second-story windows on that side of the house, and they're Anderson-style crank windows that should really be replaced, as some of the wood around the panes is starting to rot. The casings looks okay, but I will check more closely when I get home tonight.
Because the T1-11 rot behind the trim boards is pretty consistent across the entire 20-foot span, I'm assuming the rot is from wind-driven rain leaking and wicking behind the trim piece, where it's bare wood against bare siding, but I hadn't thought about the windows. There certainly is no evidence of moisture on the interior of the house.
I had thought to replace some of these windows before the end of the year to take advantage of the tax credit, but, as I said above, I'm torn over how much money I want to put into this house, as I'm planning on selling it next year.
Thanks for raising this point.
Best,
Norman
power planer
plane out the bad material, fill in with plywood.
are you going to flash over the new trim, or just glue & nail so the next guy gets to do this again in 10 years?
I nailed in half-inch rigid-foam insulation to fill the void left by the rotten T1-11, sealed that up with a combo of Vycor and foil tape (the insulation was the Dow stuff with foil backing on both sides), then installed and caulked metal flashing over the new trim. While I was at it, I also replaced the flashing over the top of the bottom piece of siding underneath the trim piece, then caulked & painted the whole thing. If I got all the rot, the next guy should be set for a long time.
Now I'm going all the way around the house replacing & flashing all the horizontal trim pieces so those don't end up like this one.
Everybody complains about woodpeckers, but they're actually pretty good at telling you where you've got problems.
Norman