I will be building a set of stairs soon. The top of the stairs will end in a hallway or catwalk which is framed with 3/4 OSB. Teh catwalk or hallway is obviously supported by joists below this OSB. In essence I would like the band joist of this catwalk to be THE FINAL RISER in the stairs. Therefore, I currently have not tread nosing at what will be the top of the stairs. WOW … anyone following me. So the point is, how can I add a nosing to the edge of this catwalk. Could I just cut an nosing and glue it and screw it onto the band joist? Of course the nosing would only be about 1 1/8 inches thick and the subfloor in the hall is 3/4 so not much to run screws into. Should I cut teh subfloor out and block it out and lay a full thickness tread into the floor? Yuk, what a pain.
Ideas?
This must come up from time to time.
Replies
Questions
How deep are the treads? I'd have to get out the code book to be sure, but at 11 in. or 12 in. tread depth, nosings are no longer required. Otherwise, you're going to have a heck of a time attaching a nosing to the OSB with any kind of reliability. No flooring of any kind going on top of that OSB?
Continued
Thanks Andy.
You say "you're going to have a heck of a time attaching a nosing.... " Indeed.
The treads will be 10 inches plus nosing. Not sure what difference that makes for my senerio, as in essence I don't have a tread in at walk. And I suppose I don't need a nosing, but all of the other step will have one.
As for your questions about flooring on top of the OSB. Yes, I will ahve carpet laid on teh OSB on the catwalk and therefore it will spill over down the stairs. This is why I would like a nosing for the carpet to flow over and toe match the rest of teh steps. I would like to have a runner, either real runner over the top of treads and over tthe nosing (need a nose at the top of the stairs) or I might do teh false runner with false treads on either side, again I need a nosing for the carpet "runner" to flow over.
So...... do I need to cut teh OSB back and lay-in a tread with a nose? Yuk..
Yeah.
I think you do need to cut the subfloor back. I got started in stair work doing railings on modular homes that had cruddy factory stairs, and encountered this situation regularly. It's a pain, but I don't know another way.
http://www.stairsupplies.net/eng/stairparts/moulding_skirtboards/8090_lt
Search Landing Tread or ask your supplier
Not work
Thanks for trying Calvin. The tread you offer would work if I were not going to run carpet over the tread. The tread you show is designed to lay on the subfloor and then have carpet butt up against it, not go over it.
Suppliers are great, but it is a very very very good idea to have ideas of your own (gathered from friendly messages boards if need be) prior to talking to suppliers. In my vast experience, many suppliers deal in the ordinary and have little real world experience. To be sure you can find some who are very knowlegible. You can call or email the likes of LJ SMith stair parts, been there done that, with the same sucess or lack of it. They know their products, wood speices, hardware, tools and jigs, but..... YOu need to talk to installers or trades people, not always easy to find. And if you do it is a phone call and a generous trades person willing to talk to you, but then it is a phone call and a picture is worth a thousand words, so it does not always get you what you need.
And Calvin, the engineers you so often suggest I contact don't know either.
White glue anyone?
Listen.
I provided the link to a cut down nosed tread so that you had something to work with.. Once you find the false treads you are looking for, modify the false tread they have for a nosing at balcony/landing.
Or.......
Make all these treads you can't find and make the nosing for the balcony/landing.
Now, leave me alone-I'm sick of listening to your bellyaching.
Drop the suppliers, the engineers and the glue while you're at it. Though I'd be using TB-III
edit: If you have a full balcony/loft/landing (not a stairwell), you'll have to run that nosing to a pleasing place to end it. Plan what you have to do to run that "runner" flushed up. Remember too, the top step is where they "enter" the stair-that runner-best be wider for when they cut the corner. Landings too-shortest distance between two points.........
If you were planning prefinished, account for that. Even same species stain up differently as does finish. Matching one pc. to storebought isn't that easy.
Can't take a joke of yor making?
You are the one who answers the majority of board questions with " consult and engineer". So you listen. Stop being a useless butthead with that crap or I suppose I can continue poke fun at you. Thank you for your last post and teh one before that, as it did not contine such non-sense of consulting suppliers and engineers or suggesting white glue. Thank you , no truely, thank you.
However, again you did not address teh SUBTREAD issue. Puting a false tread at the top of teh stairs is a no brainer. Mike had a great suggesting as to the sub tread and cutting back the OSB and rabbiting the subtread.. All such help, your included, is welcome, and no supplier is going to suppy such help. You should know this.
If you wish to end this engineer and supplier none sense, welcome back and I can park the hokes.. I have said before, wehn you are helpful you are helpful. Look forward to HELPFUL dialogue.
Nope, I answer the question.
Sometimes sure, get the info-from my suppliers it is a good decision.
You don't.
So what.
You added the engineers and the glue.
so what.
I probably didn't say it.
so what.
You and I don't get along.
so what.
You seem to want the easy answer. You know what you want that carpet to do. Make it happen.
If you can't find the precut wood, shape it yourself. It's not that hard.
You want sub tread-block between the stringers (and add one if necessary) and place something thinner there to stick that carpet on. Make/buy a tread and fasten it on either side.
Cut back the osb, block below it, do whatever is necessary.
If you do everything yourself, no need for a supplier, engineer or glue...............well, maybe some glue would work for you this time.
Best of luck.
Heck, kill a cow, boil the hides, make your own glue.
There is a well known variant to Andy Engel's tag line: Don't wrestle with a pig. You'll both just get muddy and the pig likes it.
Sap
I tried ignoring for a while, then I got piss'd off and you're right-in an attempt to help the guy I get the same crap back. I'll attempt another sabatical.
After that-attempted suicide.
The temptation is killing me.
Sun's out, snow's melting............what's not to love.
Don't know why ...
Don't know why your got your undies in a bundie, just because I suggested that your suggested hardware WOULD NOT WORK, WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE in my application. Excuse the HEL out of me.
And then my last post was a pleasant ovature, but you chose to be a horse's anyway rather than to extend your own olive branch.
If you were honest you would review your million posts to see where the endlessly and useless suggestion of "consult your supplier" crap came from. When you chose not to blow the BS you were helpful and I have and would thank you.
Some people are just ... well you know best what you are.
Cut the OSB back 3/4" to the
Cut the OSB back 3/4" to the center of the rim joist and rabbet the nosing to fit. Glue and nail the nosing to the rim.
thanks Mike
Yes, it would be easier to not have to knotch the rim joist down. And since my joist run perdindicular to the rim joist, I can cut the subfloor back more than the 1/2 width you suggest. That would be stronger and not that tough.
So Mike you are or were a stair builder? If so, I had previously asked a question here about false stair rug/carpet runners and false treads. I do not recall if you weighed in on the subject. I am interested in installing false treads and risers, but obviously need to have what I call a subtread teh full width of the stairs (under the false end pieces). The concern is the carpet needs to come over the subtread and not have teh edge of the carpet visible. Obviously, the false treads which are 1/2 inch thick ae designed to hide this edge, and on the flat part of teh thread this is no problem, but were the carpet come over the subtread nosing it might show if the substread is too thick or too long or too anything. What profile of subtread works in this application?
The LJ SMITH website shows the use of 2 by stock with a chamfered top edge and some such cut on the underside, but still not sure exactly what that looks like. Any suggestions or resources to consult?
Thanks
What I did...
... at the top tread on the oak stairs I just completed (only finished stairs I've built... so far) is essentially what Mike's described.
(Detailed explanation in a subsequent post with additional pics for clarity. I've added a pic showing one set of mortised stringers assembled just prior to final fitting and installation. Stringers are covered in protective masking paper during fabrication as I'd pre-finished all the components before assembly to make things easier in the end.)
Looks great
The pic looks great. Not sure I follow your whole post, but looks great.
If I understand, it tlooks like in your case you did not need to cut he OSB subfloor back since you laid hardwood down on top of the OSB and married the hardwood up to that.
Why the screw heads in the hardwood?
More detailed...
DoRight wrote:Why the screw heads in the hardwood?
...explanation, bigger angle view (pic 1):
Top tread meets the 2nd floor landing between two bedrooms, one to either side. Essentially a short hallway. 2x10 joists run perpendicular to treads / risers, doubled 2x10 header at the ends is what stairs run up against.
I used 3/4" CDX for subfloor (should have been T&G but didn't know better back then) with another layer of 1/2" BC ply on top for 'living' surface. Intended to carpet; living with dogs all this time suggested W2W would be hard to maintain so area rugs were the norm.
BigBox-sourced 36" red oak treads are 1" thick so rabbeting half off the thickness for 3" after I ripped the top tread in half was pretty simple. Cutting back the 1/2" BC where tread was to fill in was simple too; the screws you mention are what secure it to the 3/4" ply subfloor. The inlet tread is urethane-adhesive glued to the subfloor; the top riser is dadoed and glued into the tread, while also being glued and screwed to the header at bottom (pic 2).
Whole staircase is rock-solid after final installation. The 1/2" BC had worn down a tad over the years so there's a less than 1/16" difference between it and the top tread surface I need to figure out how to fill. Probably use some kind of epoxy putty like JB Weld markets, pressed flat under a piece of something substantial well-screwed down.
Yes that would be obvious
Yes, i could add say three inches at teh top, but my treads are not particularly long as is (don't want to shorten them) and the bottom of the run is at a landing and don't really wish to shorten that either. Great idea for some else however. Thanks for participating.
Landing Tread
I'm in the process of replacing the carpeting on my stairs and I was trying to get info on the proper way to attach the landing tread/nosing. I finally wound up calling the NWFA and I spoke to a tech who explained what would be acceptable. He was really helpful and willing to provide info. Maybe you could give them a call.
thanks for sharing Jim
Thanks for sharnig all you learned. Great job.
Funny that you did not already have a nosing if you were just replacing the carpet. very odd.
Landing tread
I replaced all the wall to wall carpeting in the house in addition to the stairs. The new flooring on the second floor runs to the top of the stairs. The flooring is 2 1/4" and therefore too narrow to create the nosing from so I had to buy a wider piece to use for the landing tread/nosing. I have read a few books on installing flooring but none were definitive on the landing nosing. The NWFA tech told me what would be considered a correct installation procedure.
Funny the guy I talked to at NWFA said he did not deal with stairs only flooring. We talked awhile and I could tell he was guessing and winging it.
Anyway, I am working it out as I go from a number of source. NASA has been a great help.
NWFA
The person I spoke to was definitely a stairs guy. Previously he had worked for a stair parts manufacturer and did product demos at retail lumber yards. I don't remember his name but I may have the phone number he called me from. Shall I try and find it? Also, as I mentioned my whole house had wall to wall carpeting including the stairs. All the subtreads under the carpeting had nosing overhangs EXCEPT for the second floor landing which was flush with the riser. I don't know where your catwalk carpeting will start and stop and the stair runner will begin with respect to the stairs but maybe you could forgo the landing tread nosing? Not having an overhang on the landing tread would seem to violate the tread depth code? I'm going to ask my town building inspector about this.
Yes ...
Please find the specific number if you would be so kind.
As for the catwalk/hall, I think I will not put a hardwood tread of any kind (full or false) at the landing. However, I would still like to have nosing to match the stairs. I think I have figured out how to get a nosing built at teh catwalk. So, I think I will get a nosing at the top and wrap the Wall to Wall carpet on the catwalk around the nosing and end it at the top of that riser. Then run false treads on each side of the stair down.
My biggest question here remains the cut of the subtreads to get a nosing for the runner to run over but not show the edge of the carpet proud of the hardwood false treads. I have been to several carpet/flooring stores, contacted carpet installers, been to and talked to building supply houses which sell stair parts, called NWFA, and emailed LJ SMith (stair part manufacturer).
My next step is to break into a realitor show house and rip off the carpet and look at the treads, NOT!
Thanks
Stair Treads and Carpeting
I'll verify that the number I have in my cell phone will get you to the stair guy at NWFA.
When you say false treads do you mean a tread that runs the full side to side length of the tread or the ones that have 2 per tread and fit between the skirts and edges of the carpet? The first scenario....wouldn't you use a runner that had finished edges? On the second scenario wouldn't you want the thickness of the carpet plus pad to be close to the thickness to the false tread so that it could be tucked against the false treads?
I just re-read your post and it appears to be the second scenario. I had never heard of this type of setup. I had only ever seen a runner running down over a full tread. I saw a blog recently where somebody was doing the second scenario. I'll try and locate it and see if I can find installation specs. It might be a regional thing? The inspector in my town said that my thick pile carpeting plus pad is consider the same thickness as 3/4" hardwood flooring so wouldn't the subtread overhang nosing have to be equal to the false tread overhang nosing minus the thickness of the carpeting and pad?
Yes Second Senerio
Yes, false treads are about 6 inches wide and a 1/2 inch thick. I know you set them on top of a full width subtread. The edge of teh false tread is supposed to hide the edge of teh carpet. The issue is how to cut or bevel or whatever, a nosig on teh sub tread so as to hide the edge of the carpet as it goes under teh lip of the sub tread. The false tread nosing is 1 1 1/6 inch thick. If the subtread is set 1/2 inch lower than the false tread, then if the sub tread were even 3/4 of an inch thick, I would think the edge of teh carpet would be proud on the false tread on teh underside of the nose. ?????????????????????????????????
I know LJ Smith Stair parts has install instructions for this type of thing, but it is either not clear to me and or the profile of the subtread is not well defined. I finally got a name o a guy with LJ SMith and will be calling him. The problem is a picture is worth a thousand words as you might understand from reading the above pharagraph. ANd I have tried such conversations over the phone wiht installers before with not great success.
As for a regional thing, perhaps. I see this install often in new homes around here, but have never seen one before the carpet is installed.
I may consider doing full width treads and risers, but the reason people do teh false treads is because it is cheaper.
Then again I think I have seen a couple of false tread installs where they made teh subtread the same profile of the false tread and laid a real runner or bound edeged carpet over it. How that subtread is formed is not clear either.
Thanks for listening.
False treads
I called NWFA. The receptionist did not know the name of the tech I had spoken to and connected me to the tech on duty who wasn't the stairs expert....I'll keep trying. My town inspector was not familiar with false treads and said that inspections are done before the finish surface is put down so even if false treads were the finished surface he would not know that. The flooring forums that had false tread discussions had no concensus concerning dimensions. I would think that the overhang, carpet or wood, would have to be the same in order for the tread depth to be the same across the length of the tread. Installer would probably the be one to answer that. I bought unfinished red oak treads which cost approx $20 for a 3/4" X 10 1/2" X 42" tread and $17 for a 3/4" X 10 1/2" X 36" tread. I made the risers out of 1/2" read oak ply. My (wife's) plan is to put down a runner which will cost more than the materials and supplies to buy, finish, and install the treads. Runner prices range from $24 to $90 per lineal foot. I guess that if false treads are done as a cost saving measure then that must be the case. Are you planning on installing the carpet between the false treads yourself?
As I mentioned, all my sub-treads (under the carpet) had nosing overhangs. The landing tread did not have a nosing overhang. The carpet installer bulked up where the landing tread doverhang would have been with extra carpet padding. I asked the inspector if that was legit......didn't get an answer to that one....all he said was make sure I have a landing tread overhang when I do the hardwood.
More
1. Were your treads and risers open? Or did you have a wall to enclose teh stairs on each side of teh treads? $20 is a good price.
2. $24 to $90 a foot for a runner? WOW! You might check out what it costs to buy carpet and have edging done on it. I got a price of $3 per LF. So at $30 a yard for carpet, you would pay $16 a LF for a runner. You can get some crpets with patterns if you like and they might be $50 a yard, but you still would only pay about $23 a LF. If you buy a Turkish Runner you are talking big bucks.
3. If you lay carpet BETWEEN false treads you save on teh edging. Most people around here do the false treads and just run whatever they have in the rest of the house, so it proably costs about $10 or $15 a LF for the stairs.
4. No, I would probably not install the carpet myself. I did do a stairs once and it turned out great and stayed put, but it was wall to wall on the stairs, which was easy.
I need to get a price for full treads vs false treads and see how that compares. Just might be easier.
Stairs
The first 5 steps (from the bottom) are open on one end and abutt the skirt board on the closed end. I made my own returns for these. These were the $20, 42" treads. The remaining 7 treads were enclosed by skirt boards on both ends. These were the $17, 36" treads. I bought the treads, unfinished, no returns on the ends, from a local lumber yard. I don't know the manufacturer but the stave joints were very good and the staves well matched. The runner prices are from a local retail carpet store. They are oriental patterns. The higher priced runners are for wool carpeting. I'm sure I could find less expensive runners in HD or a larger carpet warehouse type of store? The treads that HD has are more expensive than the local lumber yard and don't look as good and aren't as well finished.
I did not want to remove the newel post so I notched the first stair tread around it. I needed to create the return to fit this scenario. The subtreads under the carpeting were 3/4" plywood and the risers were 1/2" plywood. I 'veneered' these risers with 1/2" red oak furniture grade plywood.
Oriental Pattern
I love detailed runners, but my wife will have none of it unless the carpet is beige. A bit of an exaggeration, but it is difficult to get her to think out of the box. Plays it safe and boring.
Runners
I would think that it would be quicker to replace a runner on a full tread than the wall to wall with false treads? If that's the case you could start with the beige runner and swap it out quickly based on the holiday or season. My wife had a friend who would change her drapes and furnishings based on the season. Maybe it's just me but I would think there are more options and flexibilty with a full solid tread than with the false treads/end caps. Just out of curiosity how much do false treads cost? I keep mentioning the false treads with wall to wall down the middle and most people don't know what I'm talking about. I asked the question in the carpet store and the person helping me had never heard of that type of set up.
Flexible? False Treads. and Stuff
I would not think flexible. You need to staple the runners in, so you can't just swap them out when every you want too. Although you can use runner rods which set at the bottom of each riser to hold the runner. BIG BUCKS and formal.
False Treads with W to W are used alot in our area. I have seen it in most all new upper middle construction here in the NW.
I talked to Coffman Stair Parts ...
The Customer Service Rep at Coffman Stairs said they sell abot 20% of there product as false tread and 80% full tread. She said less in the south and more in the northeast where she said rightly or wrongly "becuase it is cold up there?. Diffenently a regional thing.
Let us also face it, most people CARPET stairs. It is easier and cheper, period.
SHOCKED!
Hey Jim you asked about false tread prices.
I talked to a supplier, and got prices for full tread and risers in ALDER and for false treads.
SHOCKED, $99 for a full tread open on one end, and $41 for a full riser.
Inside (up against the wall) $14.50 and the open false tread in alder $30.
So a full step set-up would run me $140 vs $45 for a false tread configuration.
The difference is massive.
Maybe Oak in your case would be cheaper as it would more likely be a popular and stocked item.
I will be shopping around a bit more, but price is what price is and there are milled parts.
Tread Prices
Pricey. Just out of curiosity what's a full unfinished Adler tread cost? Is full wall to wall carpeting on the stairs now a viable option? What about buying unfinished treads and finishing them yourself? Is it time, money, or both? I got sticker shock at the refinished full tread prices and decided to do the finishing myself....Easy enough to do.....finally got the landing tread installed today....it's like it's been there forever because my wife didn't even notice.
Unfinished
The $99 is the unfinished tread price. Crazy!
stair parts
Divinity sent this post to me this morning. In my 200 or so stairs, the top nosing is a rip of the stair treads for the rest of the steps. It is glue and screwed at an angle into the joist below the sheathing of the floor. Sometimes I pit a piece of 3/4" stock for the riser to support this more, if I can wrangel the depth. This is if the stair gets carpet. If the stair gets a nosing to match the caps, it is of course, a landing cap that is rabbited to "cap" the sheathing.
For the false caps of the sides of the stairs, they don't cover the carpet edge. The capet edge covers them. They are supposed to look like the tread goes all the way under the carpet. You need to remove the nosing under them so they can slide back and the carpet can wrap them. The thickness of the "step" part is taken up by the pad depth.
If your supplier doesn't know this, you need a new supplier. I can't believe LJ Smith didn't have this info. I used Coffman before too and they also knew their stuff.
user-1107204
It makes all the sense in the world to run your carpet over the top of the false tread. However, the facts are, in my area I have only seen that twice and seen the carpet between the false treads hundreds of times. Just the facts, your strong insistence otherwise is .... well your right. But here in the NW it is almost never done that way.
Coffman does not sell much in the NW, and said they sell mostly full treads.
LJ SMith was not clear as to which method to use. Although the drawing for teh cut of the subtread seemed to imply that they intend to run the carpet over teh false tread, since the cut seemed to follow the profile of the cove molding under the nose. I saw a mock up of the LJ SMith stairs and thought the look sucked. Carpet or runners should tuck under the nose, but it ran OVER teh cove under the nose. Clumsy.
Thanks.
I think I have the catwlk issue in hand. nto sure which way to go on the treads yet.
insistence is wrong word, sorry.
Insistence is wrong word, sorry. obviously your experience and like I said, sure makes sense to to it that way so as to mimic a runner on full treads. Just odd almost no one does it that way. Then again, to lay it on the false tread means you need to bind teh carpet edge and that could add $200 to the bill. ANd many houses, as you know, are spec built and contractors save every dime. People don't seem to want to pay for details and I suppose most don't notice wanting square footage, wood floors and granite.
user-1107204 is me!
We have bound the carpet some, but mosty we roll and tuck. It depends on the pile, but my carpet guys take there job seriously. Anyway, the "runner" would look the same with a full tread or caps. Money saved under the runner, enough to pay for binding, usually. Actually, dollar for dollar over the years, a full tread is the way to go carpet or no carpet. The Caps are smaller, pieces glued to pieces that tend to squeak more often. Plus, imagine the disapointment of the next owner! BTW I don't know why my name was missing.
Disappointment?
I would think once you tack and staple carpet or a runner on a beautiful full tread no one would want to show them naked.
...and no one would paint stained wood or strip painted to stain it. It takes all kinds! I was bothered by this thread enough to break out the Coffman and Smith catalogs. WOW! I never noticed, but they show it evey way! I suppose you can't tell if you don't know the product, but with some using tread mould and some not; some waterfall carpet and some wrapped it looks like you can't go Wrong. I can sleep easy.