Looking for some advice about a gutter idea. I hate gutters more than anything; I hate cleaning them, installing them, replacing them…. what a waste of time. Hate hate hate. I don’t trust all those fancy gutter systems with slits and slats and whatnot. After dutifully installing brand new gutter guard mesh a year ago, now I’m ripping it off so I can clean away the fine tree sludge that is plugging my gutters. So my little pea brain came up with this idea, and I need someone to tell me what’s wrong with it.
Instead of a gutter attached to the eaves, why can’t I just install a strip drain in the ground directly beneath the eaves? That way the water just runs off the roof, down into the drain, no fuss, no leaves, no sludge, no muss. I could bury the drain under an inch of decorative stones, I could bury some plastic sheeting to guide other errant waters into the drain. When cleaning time comes, then I just fire up the leaf blower and walk around the house. Anyone ever done it like this?
Replies
How are you going to deal with (i) splashing and (ii) the differing amount of "spread" of the water coming off the roof at different velocities with differing rainfall amounts (drizzle v gully washer)?
Many years ago I visited a single story house in a heavily wooded site, built in the early 60's, 4/12 roof pitch with a shallow copper gutter pan installed in the last foot of the overhang and drained by 1" copper down drops throught the soffit at 10 ft intervals. The copper pan was very shallow...about 1" and was designed to catch and carry away the drizzle and drips, but a toad strangler would wash over the and down the intergral copper drip edge to fall into a bed of 1"stone below, which filled a concealed concrete drainage gutter that was sloped to move the water away from the house.
I was there to check out a vent installation and had to climb on the roof. The gutter/troughs were free of leaves, and when I came off the roof I asked the owner about his system. He said it was low maintenance and the leaves and trash washed out with the next big rain or wind.
I am currently constructing a house in a heavily wooded site and the customer is asking for rainwater control other than "gutters". The 10/12 pitch does not lend itself to a roof edge trough, but the construction of a drip line depressed concrete gutter filled with stone is under consideration, although apparently more expensive.
Has anyone else had dealings with this rainwater catch system?
The final decision is yet to be made...............................Iron Helix
Aren't you talking about a french drain here?
http://www.repair-home.com/how_to/create_a_french_drain.htm
A french drain is designed to take the moisture that works it way to your foundation and move it away from the house.
Gutters take moisture from the roof of the house and keep it away from the foundation. Gutters should never be drained into the french drain system. You are inviting disaster and HUGE repair bills down the road. Of course, results will vary based on soil types and local conditions. I think the key is that the moisture from the roof must be moved away from the house. If that is accomplished, then you should be in good shape.
This comes from my husband who has been in foundation repair and inspection for many years. I'm only repeating from him. My government desk job hasn't provided me with much helpful expertise in these areas! :-)
I have a 14 on 12 roof that has no gutters .I built a 6 inch deep decorative rock bed with 10 mil plastic underneath.It is boxed in with rr ties and drains at one end I also put a 30 inch band of manmade stone all the way around the house.I put rain diverters over the doors so I didn't get soaked going in and out.
ANDYSZ2
Not Really..................I think someone else already addressed the difference.
Learn a little more everyday...............Iron Helix
pio.... i've been building houses since '73.. never designed one or built one with a gutter yet..
was driving around Henniker , NH yesterday... looking at every building in the town...not one single gutter..mostly the same in Vermont & Maine too..
good overhangs... good grading away from the foundation.. and nature takes care of the rest...most times the grass will grow in the drip line, so you don't even need stone or drains... we get about 33" a year here, so figure accordingly..
if you have trouble starting grass in the drip line you can use sod (turf ) around the house and seed the rest...
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was up near Stowe, Vermont about a week ago and had my eye on the homes around there. I too noticed hardly any gutters attached to eaves. Most often there was simply a concrete trough under the dripline to catch the water and run it out to the street. Heck if they can do that why can't I?
I have never done a french drain before, so I'm unsure of that approach. What keeps tree roots from finding their way into the downturned holes of the french drain tube?
For the strip drain, I don't really have any good idea for preventing dirty splashings against the home. Perhaps the decorative stone layer on top would be enough to diffuse the splash so it wouldn't reach the home. To catch the heavier rainfalls, maybe I could place a plastic sheeting layer next to the drain and grade it back toward the drain, and cover that with rocks also. That way, a range of driplines from drizzle to torrential would all find their way back to the strip drain.
pio.. i've never had a problem with splash if the grass is growing right up to the foundation..
in locations where there are planting beds against the foundation..then a 4" - 6" strip of crushed stone usually takes care of the problem.. but really.. the ground splash is not the problem... the only splash problem i've had is on decks.. there the splash zone extends up the siding about 16" or so....
some of this is not really splash as much as it is capillary.. so nowadays we always leave 3/4" of flashing exposed before we start any siding .. same with vertical walls meeting roof areas.......3/4" exposed flashing before the siding ..we never bring siding in contact with roofingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
My father, a builder in Connecticut from 1933 to 1988, always said, "Basement needs a gutter, no basement don't." In his opinion, the main reason for a gutter was to help keep the basement dry, so a house with a crawlspace or a slab or (especially) piers had no need for one. On his own house, he would rather have a shed than a basement, if it meant he could avoid maintaining the gutter.
gutters have very little to do with dry basements... moving the water away from the foundation and providing good underslab drainage has everything to do with dry basements...
a gutter never did nothin to prevent wet basements in a high water table
gutters are a figment of the middle class imagination...they THINK gutters belong on houses... but it is really just a question of design and personal preference..
if you are basing your gutter decision on what is done locally .. that means almost nothing...almost any residential dwelling can be designed with no gutters, full basements and dry basements.. no damage from splash
we've installed every kind of gutter most people can think of.. wood, copper , built-in, aluminum, roof hung, fascia hung, rafter hung...but when we have the opportunity to design them out of the job.. we do
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You mean my daddy was wrong? Sure wouldn't be the first time.
now, i didn't say dat.. mighta thot it.. but i certainly wouldn't call yur daddy out...
after all, they do seem to get wiser every year...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I've got a question. I'm currently building a 12'x17' one story rear addition with a flat roof. I put a slight pitch on the roof for water run off. The roof is flat in anticipation for a second story to be built when the homeowners have the money to do so. Anyway I'm trying to find ways minimize any unneeded costs. So I'm thinking why put up gutters just to rip them off in a year? I understand the use of grass to prevent splashing against the house but this addition was built over brick pavers that are staying in place. I used allpressure treated lumber for the floor joists and pressure treated plywood 20'' up to the decking and hardiplank siding so splashing won't hurt it but, what about the paint mildeweing? Am i stuck using unsightly gutters? Any help would be much appreciated
thanks, Nate
MY personal preference would be to put some gutters on my neighbor's house. 25 sq of rain draining right into my yard - he's 3 ft from property line (overhang is only about a foot away), so moving the water away from his foundation puts it into mine. He won't use gutters though, because he feels it will rot out his facia. We added a small retaining wall, but that doesn't keep out water, just dirt. How would you approach a problem like this without using gutters?
nate: the mildew is not usually a splash problem. it is a drying problem.. with fibercement there is no absorption so the siding drys as fast as the humidity conditions will let it.. also mildew is an airborne spore.. it is either present or not.. sometimes a mildewcide in the paint will help.. or a light bleach wash..but from your description i wouldn't worry about the splash..
aimless: if he had gutters , where would the downspouts drain to ?.... uh , hu.. same place , right ?..the retaining wall on your prperty sounds like a good idea..
many town have ordinances that prevent neighbors from draining surface runoff onto the abutters ( and many prevent you from draining onto the road right -of -way also )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The builders in my area run the gutters directly into PVC that is run all around the house and out to the street (sewer or water run off pipes)
Don't need gutters ... but ...
I agree you don't need gutters, but there are reasons to like them . 1. If you need to stop water from coming down on a deck or in front of your entry door. You could say design a different entry, but ... well design is sometimes what it is.
2. I think the splash back against teh siding is an issue. If it splashs back on teh siding you WILL be repainting teh siding.
I hate gutters, I hate them... Sam I am .. I hate them, but .....
The Japanese get away with this because (1) shrines/temples use much wider eaves (overhangs) than is normally seen in residential housing, and (2) siding on traditional houses/shrines/temples wasn't painted (well, on temples, maybe . . .).
Great thread. We also live in the woods were gutters are a major maintenance item, as such we are gutterless. I also have considered putting a collection system under the eves which would incorporate an angled PT'd 2x6 right on the drip line to reduce splashing. It is interesting to note that the eroded drip line is only about 3" or 4" wide, which seems to indicate that the point of ground contact varies very little from a drizzle to cloud buster. Only in the valleys do we see a large area of erosion. My major item of concern is that the splashing must be prevented to stop the water from coming up and under the first layer of siding and house wrap or whatever. this bottom edge is rarely sealed, leaving the sheathing vulnerable to repeated wetting and rot.
Just my two cents worth.
Pio,
When I toured colonial Williamsburg last summer, I noticed that the houses did not have gutters on the eaves. Instead, they built gutters out of brick in the eavedrip line on the ground. These conveyed the bulk of the water away from the foundation of the house and seemed to me to be a great design. The gutters were made out of three bricks (in cross section). One brick made the 8-in. bottom and the two others, laid at about a 45-degree angle, formed the sides.
By the way, the word "eavesdrop" comes from the image of a nosy person standing in the eavesdrip just outside a window. There the eavesdropper might peek in the house or just listen for tidbits of gossip or information. The word goes back to the late Middle Ages. --John
My neighbor had those solid gutter guards installed on his gutters two years ago and they seem to work remarkably well if you do in fact use gutters. No leaves or ANYTHING has gotten in there...(and we have mega trees around here)..I know cause I did a small roof repair for him the other day and checked out that new fangled contraption...Seemed pretty ccool actually
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy, The problem I understand is with this type of gutter system when all the debris that normaly fills your gutters gets washed down ending up on the siding of your house and making the front of the gutter look like its been on 20 years and never been cleaned.
JMHO, Roger
Ground Gutters
Check out this site. Bluland ground gutters
Do you realize you pulled up a thread that's 12 years old?
He doesn't care -- he's spamming.
Actually, this is done a good deal in Japanese temple/shrine architecture (probably in early modern home architecture as well). Of course they also use the drip chain kind of rain collector, but I've also seen a good number of temples or shrines that used no eave trough or downspout, but simply had a 30cm-50cm wide drain strip dug immediately below the eaves. I have no idea how deep the strips go, but they're filled with gravel and provide both splash reduction and water absorption in all but the most fiercesome typhoons.