Hello all,
I am in planning stages of adding a new patio door to my home.
- single family 2 story home
- patio door will be on first floor
- patio w/ cover already exists
- house is built on slab, south Texas
- patio door will be flanked by 1 window each side
- 10ft total opening, with supports between door and windows
- wall for door currently has 3 windows
- wall may support 2nd floor + hip roof (can’t tell)
- wall is currently framed to bear significant load
- ceiling joists run parallel to wall
I have attached several images and one excel file (multi-tab) that explain the situation better.
I have three questions to pose:
1) How is load of roof + 2nd floor being transferred in to the first floor wall framing?
2) For header layout, can I cover door + windows under same header (2×113/4 LVL) or should I make it 3 headers?
3) How can I support this wall during header removal and reframing?
I’m not opposed to hiring an engineer to weigh in, but I would like to better understand before this.
Thanks in advance for replies.
-Jon
Replies
1- the "mis aligned"
1- the "mis aligned" supports your concerned about are not a concern. thats what headers do. they transfer the loads from above.
the load is transfered on the exterior walls.
2- you can make one header with jacks separating your windows/doors but you wouldnt even need an LVL, can be done with dimensional lumber. Although your header total length is 10' you actually only spanning the width of your door (largerst span).
3-this is normally done by a temporary wall built on the interior (very close to the wall your removing). I would recomment cutting out the sheetrock above where the temp wall will be so that you can get tight to the bottom of the floor joist.
Mark - thank you for your reply.
For #3, to clarify ... this method of temp support can be used even though floor joists run parallel to wall being worked on? How does the 2nd story + roof load transfer to the temporary wall? See new image attached.
No. Subflooring is inadequate to carry the re-directed load path you illustrate.
This is why "engineering" advice from folks like Mark122 (who is the furthest thing from a professional engineer possible), is not only worthless, but potentially dangerous. He's displays his ignorace by giving out advice based on so many unknowns it isn't funny, and you're ignorant for soliciting it in the first place.
Stop being cheap and hire a professional engineer or builder to handle your project which is clearly beyond your capacity. We've heard the "I just want to understand what's going on" argument a zillion times. It not new and it's no geniune. Your professional engineer will tell you exactly what is going on if you must know. My guess is that he or she will charge you both for the solution...and the lesson (if both are really desired)..
with all due respect
Thank you for the comment about subflooring. I am more than capable at assesing that subloor is not adaquate to handle the load illustrated. I simply phrased this in the form of a question to be polite to other poster (Mark).
With all due respect - this is not howtohaveacontractordoeverythingforyou.com. This is a forum to discuss construction technique.
This forum is but one avenue I am using to make a decision on how to proceed with this project. I considered having the work contracted out - but when all 4 bids came back at over $5k (not including door or window units) I decided I would see what other options there are. Call it cheap if you want, this is the internet after all.
My general feeling so far is that this is within my capacity - as long as I carefully research and seek advice. That wall has sat without drywall covering for 2 months as I research how to proceed in my spare time. I assure you I am as genuine in my approach as I am thorough.
capable of what?
4 bids for a job this size? And waste everyone's time by not accepting any of them*? You are cheap.
If you are as thorough as you claim, then you would have solicited advice from a professional engineer to lay out a permitable structural game plan from the get-go. This way you could havegotten on with the job yourself rather than continue to contemplate your naval in this forum.
*as if 4 professional contractors are all in lala land in terms of estimating cost. Sounds to me like a case of class "A " homeowner tire kicking.
concession
OK sir - I concede your point. I am cheap.
Now are you more upset that I am cheap or that people like me can use websites like this to get around hiring people like you?
Upset? Hardly. I enjoy yanking your cheap homeowner chain. In fact, you haven't gotten around anything; most of all your ego.Here are at least 5 reasons for you to contemplate why. Go ahead, spend some free time on them, you aparently have a lot of it.
1. Forums don't build projects; people do. Always will.
2. All you've seemingly learned in this thread is how to use the prescriptive code. That's always free... and most folks find that self explanatory. Oh yeah. You've also learned that a structural header doesn't always have be directly above a rough opening. You call locating a beam in an alternative location within the load path "genius". I call that common sense.
3. You haven't received any professional engineering for your project in this forum. And most likley never will.
4. Any professional contractor worth his or her salt would receive professional engineering advice (effecient beam size and material) for this type of project for free via their lumber supplier. This usually comes as a matter of course in exchange for maintaining a professional account. Any fee that may have built into a bid would be most likely be negliable because there is, in reality, nothing to mark up. You gained nothing. Sure; materials themselves would be marked up. But I get them cheaper than you every day of the week. I also install them more effeciently than you every day of the week.
5. A professional contractor would most likely complete your project in a couple of days. Based on your 2 months of stagnation and contemplation, you might get it done before the end of next year. I bet dollars to donuts that if you value your time anywhere near reality, you will spend more on your project than you would with a professional remodeler. Probably will surpass it in on wasted and miscut material alone.
Cheers to a safe and happy New Year!
no, with joist running in the direction you show it should be an easier process.
It's possible nothing is required...
Question #1: The load from the roof and second floor exterior wall and last 1' of second floor all rest on the rim joist of the second floor framing (could be rim joist material or an I-joist)...This load is transferred to the wall below, and, in this case, around the existing windows. Then down to the slab or floor framing below.
Question #2: You should use one header continuously over the whole span - with the loads in this situation, the LVL's would easily handle a 10' span with no intermediate supports...
Question #3: It's possible no support is needed. Since the second floor I-joists run parallel to the wall in question, they are not contributing any load to this wall. The existing headers are only supporting the second floor exterior wall above, the roof truss framing and the small load from patio roof.
If there's an uninterupted floor I-joist installed directly above the header that spans the 10' opening without a break, it would adequately support the deadload of the wall and the roof load above. In addition, the second floor wall with sheathing attached acts as a diaphragm and has tremendous weight carrying capabilites. Finally, it looks like the ledger (2x8?) for the patio framing also looks to be continuous over this span - this would easily carry the load of the patio cover until the headers are installed.
I assume the 5th picture is the joist space above this header...the insulation being the exterior side. If this is uncovered and a continuous I-joist is present, I wouldn't be concerned. If you wanted to be extra carefull, you could reinforce the joist by installing a 2x joist ripped to match the height of the web space between the top and bottom chords of the i-joist - glued and screwed to the web. If it's OSB rim joist material designed to go with the I-joist system, a 2x12, parallam or LVL glued and screwed to the rim joist would be more than adequate to handle the temporary load.
As always, an engineer is a good idea, but not always practical in the middle of getting work done..
Just out of curiosity, where is the 4th picture taken?
#1 and #2 Thanks for explaining.
#3 - to answer your questions / assumptions:
There is an uninterrupted member above headers, but not I-joist ... looks like OSB rim joist (similar to link) http://cmfac.groups.et.byu.net/tharmon/CM210/notes/Floor%20systems/Rim%20Joist.JPG.
Patio ledger is continuous in this area - but it is bolted to first floor wall top-plate, not rim joist.
5th pic in OP is indeed joist space above header, rim joist is covered by insulation.
4th pic ... look at 1st pic in OP, 4th pic is near top RH portion of 1st pic. The beam is another project I completed recently (removing load bearing wall between living room (to left in pic) and kitchen (to right in pic). It has since been completely installed (minus sheet rock).
With everyone's help - the best solution I see is:
Temp fill web space of rim joist.
Bolt 2x12x11ft beam to rim joist, from interior.
Support 2x12 beam from interior.
Support patio ledger from exterior .
Remove and replace headers / posts.
Seems that this method of temp support will block moving the new header in to place. Maybe I could set the new header next to the wall and leave 6" space between wall and rim joist temp support columns to hoist the new header in to position? I'd rather avoid adding a beam on the outside, since I'd have to tear up the patio cover to get it in.
A simple solution, put the load bearing header above the wall top plate, bolted to the rim joist. Check span tables for size of beam required for you area. Your max span is only width of door ~ 6 ft.
Fill web space of rim joist. ( Edit: may not be reqired if the rim joist is flat. Is it an I beam, or flat rim board?)
Bolt 11ft beam to rim joist, from interior
Add squash blocks as necessary to ensure full bearing.
Remove existing header and studs one section at time, and replace with new studs.
Katmandu,
Genius! Takes care of the need for temporary support period.
Rim joist is flat (no I-beam). Code in my locale is just IRC 2015, nothing added. Checking span tables:
building width 36', load 30psf (south TX)
supporting roof, ceiling, 1 center-bearing floor
allowable span 6'5" with 2-2x12 (covers 6ft door)
Span tables seem to be for gable wall of gable roof homes, with floor joists running perpendicular to header ... this would be more severe than my application, but more conservative (which I am OK with, wood is pretty much free if there is space for it).
Rather than simply remove the old headers, I may replace them with one continuous 10' header for added support (so 2-2x12 where the rim joist are, with 2-2x12 again below it between door and top plate).
Last question - span table calls for 2-2x12 ... can the OSB rim joist (2x12) serve as one of the members? Or is it weaker than standard lumber? With that I'm ready to call in an engineer to bless it (who knows, may be hidden loads somewhere in roof design).
In your case, the span tables are really conservative because of the hip roof, and the direction the floor joists are running. Hip roof spreads the load over the 3 supporting walls, rather than the 2 for the gable roof. Floor joists are running parallel to wall, so wall is only supporting the load from the first bay.
An engineer can calculate the actual loads and size the appropriate beam. It will be much smaller than what the span tables show.
However, depending on the cost of lumber, it may be less expensive to just install the headers per the prescriptive code.
There is no value added to putting in additional headers below the top plates, once you have a header installed with the rim board. It is additional cost, and reduces insulation space.
OSB rim boards are designed to transfer shear and compression loads. They are not designed for bending as a header. There is some bending strength, but cannot be used as part of the header in the prescriptive code designs.
Cheers,
This is the solution I stated above..
This is what I suggested in the last paragraph of my notes above.. add an LVL the same height of the I-joists and screw it to the rim joist. More than enough strength for a short span...header down below ceiling level would be cosmetic only..could use a single 2x10 header with 2x4 (or 2x6) plate under and add insulation to void where other headers normally would be. If you want to look at the I-joist as a temporary - as a temp beam, there is no live load to speak of on the upper floor during the construction (no parties until you're done) and none on the roof if done in decent weather.. the only loads on the header during construction would be the dead loads (weight of the house construction) and this is normally only a fraction of the live load..
Firefinish - Thanks for your reply. I will explore the method of lagging a beam to the frame.
Regarding OP question #3 ... found this article. Seems it could be adapted for my purpose. Any thoughts?
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/28649/temporary-support-beams-for-sill-and-foundation-work
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