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Water Table Framing - Brick Veneer Wall

MrSQL's picture

Hello,


I'm framing 3 water tables on the gable ends that will be bricked.  Since the brick needs to go behind the water table, I'll leave the sheathing back by 5-51/2 inches. 


If there were no brick, I'd apply a nailer for the false rafter tails and fasten to that.  But with the brick running up and around the framing, do I need to put my nailer on the inside of the wall [new construction;no insulation]?  or  what is the best way to frame the water tables when there is brick behind them?


 


Thanks,


Roger <><


 

(post #98730, reply #1 of 12)

hello,


The water table I'm talking about is at the gable end where there is a set of false rafter tails across from eave to eave.


Any takers on my previously posted question?


 


Roger <><


 


 


 

(post #98730, reply #2 of 12)

i'm a little confused.  i typically think of a water table as a level form of finish on the base of a building which terminates approximately two to three feet above grade.  the water table is often stone or brick with a form of level cap to provide a transition for the siding material used above.


you mention rafters which make up the roof structure.  i doubt your roof starts three feet above the ground.


i included a couple of photos


one of them is my house


 



carpenter in transition


Edited 7/11/2005 10:19 am ET by TIM_KLINE

carpenter in transition

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(post #98730, reply #3 of 12)

Well, my mason called it a water table. 


The attached picture shows what I mean. 


On the right of the building (gable end,garage side), the part I'm talking about is that bit of roof that goes straight across under the window.


 


 


 

(post #98730, reply #4 of 12)

Does the brick run behind the framing? What carries the brick above? I have never heard this described as a water table. I think that the brick could be installled first and then the roof ledger could be attached to the brick. I think it would be very hard for a mason to install brick through a pocket. If the engineering allows the brick to be carried with a lintel attached to the wood framing then you might just frame a flat shelf (5 1/2") across the width of the gable. That is a engineering question however. Any headers below might need to beefed up to carry the weight of the brick. We have done that before, with an engineered design.


 


 


Adam Greisz

Owen Roberts Group


10634 East Riverside Drive # 100


Bothell, WA 98011


www.owenrobertsgroup.com

Wood is Good Adam Greisz<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />  

(post #98730, reply #5 of 12)

These rafters tie into gable studs; stone veneer stops and siding is on top.
For brick,just leave 4-5" off plywood.

Hope it helps;
http://domania.us/FramerT/new%20house/11200806990001.image.jpg

If it were easy....a caveman could do it.

(post #98730, reply #6 of 12)

Do you mean nail the false rafter tails to the sides of the studs, then sheath around them? 

 

(post #98730, reply #7 of 12)

yep.

If it were easy....a caveman could do it.

(post #98730, reply #8 of 12)

whoa.  wait a minute.


if you want to frame the home in the picture (yours, not FramerT's) then the brick must go on first all the way to the upper roof line and then the level cornice must be applied over the brick after the brick is installed.


the mason may choose to use 4" block behind the framing to save money.  he may also add some wood blocking to help with your fastening.  he will not want to install the brick around your level cornice if you put in on first.  if you do put it on, you may find it on the ground if you aren't around when he gets there.


the framing is done by installing  2x rim material directly to the masonry and then attaching short rafters to the rim.


FramerT's image shows the same type of gable but with lightweight siding above this cornice, not brick.  if that is what you want, then you can follow his lead.


 


carpenter in transition

carpenter in transition

(post #98730, reply #9 of 12)

I have looked at your photo further and it appears that the brick above the level cornice is not in the same plane as the brick below.  it appears to be at least 9" back.


this presents all kinds of interesting weight bearing issues.  i would like to see the steel beam that holds up the brick on the upper gable and also the way the weight was carried to the foundation.


nice high end house.


 


carpenter in transition

carpenter in transition

(post #98730, reply #11 of 12)

Tim we install that  cornice and shed roof all the time before the brickies show up. It get roofed and painted too!


It's not really any big deal. They just lay up the bricks behind the frieze, then fill in behind it. I guess they just drop in the bricks and mortar behind the framing, but an alternative method would be to bolt on some lintels and restart the brickwork. They might also layup some "pillars" using 4x16 solid blocks and set the lintels on it, but I rather doubt that they do. Usually, they just drop and slop their way till they are above the roof.


This situation doesn't come up much, but I've never heard of a brickie tearing one off.


blue


 

"...

keep looking for customers who want to hire  YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you  a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and  "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead  high...."

From the best of TauntonU.

(post #98730, reply #12 of 12)

you never met our bricklayer !


you never know with him


some days, no problem, others, lookout !


 


carpenter in transition

carpenter in transition

(post #98730, reply #10 of 12)

Ah would agree with others that this one ( the one in your picture), should be attached after the brick guy runs up the gable. You could somehow hang that assembly in placew somehow, but your still going to have to fasten it after the masonry is done. So just leave it off.  If you HAVE to, and your building it JUST like the picture you posted, You could omit the brick under that gable window and fur the wall out there the width of your venneer. That would give you somthing to nail to. I still wouldn't do it.   


I can see where your coming from, though, I get alot of comments from masons to install as much cornice as possible before they start. (you would think otherwise). This gives them an edge to brick to. Guys I've seen clamp a tall aluminum straightedge to the frieze as a guide.  


You might want to rethink that five-, five and a half inches. Thats way to big. We do 4 1/2"  ( three 2x's) as the total space for brick + airspace.  Do the math..... 3 1/2" brick, 1" airspace,  equals four and a half.  ( the brick is closer to 3 5/8, but does it matterr?).   Plus you will find that that works better with brickmold around the windows.