Hi,
A client called me today to tell me several casement windows were leaking and I need some advice on how to fix it. They are wood with Truth sliders. Many original 1989 vintage sash disintegrated a few years back and we had several re-built or restored the rest. We also got new Truth sliders, where needed and reused the old bulb weatherstripping wherever possible as we could not source the exact original.
After looking things over for an hour, there appears to be two primary causes of the leaks, the first we know how to address: The old leaded glass windows have some leaks around the field came.
The second appears to be water getting around/through the weatherstripping. It then gets trapped with inside being the only direction to go. It is the leaking through the hole for the operator as well as causing the interior caulk bead to fail and thus leaking along the entire bottom of the jamb.
This is also happening on the fixed windows. They are installed using the same weatherstripping as the operable windows, just screwed in rather than hinged. I was always suspicious of this system. First question: Can I just caulk the sash to the jamb rather than trust the weatherstripping? Or is there some unintended consequence to doing that?
Water is not getting around the leaded panels – the seal around the stops and from the stop to the panel still looks very well done and pristine, and I re-glazed all of these myself, so I know they are solid.
Any advice on weather stripping or other things to look for? What else do you need to know to be able to help me?
Thanks!
Brad
Replies
Brad
on the fixed panels, I've had success when not being able to remove the sash from frame, with sealing them off. Pella went from the tabs behind the stops and screwed the panels in from the sides- into the sash. No removal unless you removed the whole shebang, then unfastened.
I used backer rod first, then neatly caulked with color matched Urethane caulk. You can freehand it if you careful or tape if necessary.
cannot see the other problems but Blaine Hardware online has many window parts and seals. Contact them and peruse the catalogue. They will accept a pc. of the old to identify for you.
those seemingly flimsy seals, both the bulb and v- shaped stuff really do work when new or in decent condition.......but when old and brittle, almost seem to draw water in.
if you were able to name the window company and they are still in biz, you might seek their help. All in all, like the Truth operators, there weren't too many different brands or styles of weatherstripping.
And, there's always ConservationTechnologies, for other maybe workable solutions. Find them online or they usually run an ad in FHB mag.
It sounds like you need weep holes.
DanH,
These have no place to put a weep hole that will not allow even more water in! A few years back I had to seal some weep holes in a bunch of Crittal windows because water was streaming into the house through them! They thought it was my glazing at fault. Nope.
- Brad
If you've got an upward-facing gap and no way for the water to escape, you have a leak.
Brad
One more thing, make sure the water entry point. Many windows at that time were installed poorly. Resultant painting ( and caulking ) often sealed areas that would have been better off left untouched.
Entry from above can often worm it's way into the inside of the space, sitting and rotting. Worn weatherstripping at the top will guide water where it doesn't belong. Still good stripping at the bottom can hold it in.
that, and tell the irrigation people not to bathe it every morning.
Calvin,
So replace the weatherstripping seems to the best thing.
I restored these (other than the 6 I had built newly), primed them, glazed the leaded windows and re-installed them. The painters took it from there. A couple of the stile/rail joints are seperating - I assume that is on the painters.
So if there was an error in installation it was on me, what types of mistakes might I have made to lead to the current issues?
Thanks!
- Brad
Brad
Troubleshooting a cause w/o looking at it is a crapshoot at best. With your description I've tried to make suggestions of things to check. While pictures would help, nothing beats an in person look.
If the problems exist on the same windows that were previously repaired, it could even suggest that the cause of the original window problem was not solved.
Joinery failure would not to me be easily placed at the hand of the painters. Small details on exterior connections become real important because they are in the elements, often involve movable parts fits and hardware, and usually are just a portion of a complete system.
couple all this with new growth wood which sucks water up like a soda straw..............
If you can post pictures here of the situation, someone might be able to see something you can investigate. That's the best I can do from this chair in Ohio.
Brad,
YOu've identified the hardware manufacturer, but who is the manufacturer of the actual window units?
deadnuts, we do not know.
- Brad
help me out here
Please help me understand the actual problem you're trying to solve here. I ask this because you made an interesting distinction between responsiblity for these leaking windows possibly being yours... or possibly being that of a seperate painting contractor.
Is the problem:
1. your uncertainty of how to take a second stab (and I'll assume, in this case, a second contract) at actually repairing these windows so they don't leak after failing to do so under a previous contract completed a "few" years ago?
2. establishing responsibility for satisfying a client whom is making a warranty claim against you for repair work done first time 'round?
We need pictures or a diagram or something. We've no idea where the weatherstripping is or how it's configured, no idea how the other structures of the window function.
We've got the original 1976 Andersen windows that came with the house, and they've never leaked.
Oddly enough...
I'm with you on this one. Let's get some additional documentation to work with. 25 year old wood casement windows "disintegrating" sounds a little dramatic to me. Extraordinary exposure, poor exterior trim details, and/or sub-par original design would seemingly have to play an integral part in this leak scenario.
Yeah, I am going to get back out there on later today or Monday and look at it again with some of the new things I have learned from the forums, as well as take more relevent pictures.
I am now thinking that 80% of the leaks are a result of the failure of glazing in the caming. Water leaking through the window panel may make it appear that water is getting around the sash. When we did the original work we recommended a restoration of the leaded windows, but the owner did not want to pay for that. Other windows on the same side of the house had came leak issues we addressed in 2007, so it is really no surprise we are getting new ones now.
Calvin, the airports are open again so you can get off that chair in Ohio and visit "sunny" California.
Thanks everyone for all the help so far! Will be back with more data by the end of Monday latest.
- Brad
Brad,
Try hitting the windows with a water hose starting from the bottom and moving up. Glazing leaded glass is easy. You can either maked your own compound with BLO and whiting or buy ready made.
KK
Update and pictures
I visited the house again late on Friday and took a bunch of pics.
The rain had subsided considerably by then so everything had pretty much dried out unfortunately, but at least I was able to get a much better look at all of the windows without getting drenched!
I had forgotten that there were two layers of weather stripping. A plastic half-V type on ouiter edge of the sash itself and the rubber bulb style on the jamb. We replaced a lot of the bulb stuff (above and beyond the contract requirement) and all of the half-V stuff when we restored the windows (above and beyond the contract requirement). But more of the bulb could use some time in the trash can.
I also looked at the caming more closely, most of the windows on this side of the house have been re-puttied once before. Rather than remove the older, obviously substandard putty, they just put a new layer, and didn't even use the right color. Much of that is now falling out. See pics of water trails on glass and white putty falling out.
Considering the re-putty/wind bar work we had already done on the large stair landing windows in 2007, it is my judgement that nearly all of the leakage is coming through the window panel and not through leaks around the sash.
If you look at the Corner of Rehabbed Sash pic you will see that there is evidence of water getting past the first strip and the paint is already gone on the corner. This particular window was not leaking, just easy to get to for a photo.
There is one spot that I believe has larger problems. The lower left corner of one of the windows has a lot more water damage than the others and the sheetrock is also cracked. This does not jive with the amount of water that could come through the came and the window is fixed. I also learned that when they bought the house they had to take out and re-install all of the window frames because the flashing had been put in backwards. So I think this is the result of water penetrating around the window.
See pics interior damage as well as exterior top and bottom of window pics.
Thanks!