Wow, they are using all plywood. Sweet!
Watching the continued progress of the current TOH project and was pleasently surprised that the exterior sheathing for the new additions were done in plywood. No OSB, no foamboard. But real plywood, and it looked pretty thick too.
So, having been in the south since 1989 and immersed in what construction is like down here I almost think their brainwashing of less wood is good methodology has sunk in and the notion of cardboard home construction is normal. So, seeing real plywood used for the complete exterior sheathing was a surprise to me when in reality it shouldn’t have been.
Replies
I can't bear to watch the current season of TOH, that house is butt ugly (in my opinion).
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
This thread isn't so much on their current project as the idea that someone still thinks enough to use wood instead of semi-wood of non-wood as an exterior sheathing.
Your not the only one with that opinion!
$80,000 for materials only for the stairs? Absurd!
The treads are going to be 4" thick solid Teak. I'm jealous.
I have to admit I have TOH on my Tivo list.
---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
Edited 12/19/2005 6:23 pm ET by dustinf
Got to admit that I like OSB. Yeah, it swells. Plywood delaminates. OSB is heavier. Plywood takes big trees. OSB takes farmed aspens. With either, it's all about the glue.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Plywood doesn't take big trees anymore, Andy.
It did at one time, when big trees were the primary resource, but the newer lathes can go through small logs like goose poop through a brass horn and run the cores down to about 2".
And maybe it's the mills that my ply comes from, but I rarely get delams....having worked in a ply plant years ago, I have some quality expectations, and there are some issues with todays' plywood that annoy me. But OSB just doesn't float my boat anymore.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
I still don't have a problem with OSB though. Except on roofs - there, I'll take 5/8 ply. It's no heavier than 1/2 in. osb, and is far more stiff. Advantech on the floors, whatever's cheapest and meets the shear needs on the walls, and 5/8 cdx on the roof.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
All, it wasn't my intention to infer I had a problem with OSB. I understand that OSB, like plywood, is a wood product held together with a hygroscopic glue that has their own pro's and con's, respectively.
My concern was with what I have observed since I moved to the southeastern part of the country. Initially, I observed OSB enter the SE market well before it struck the NE part of the country. Mind you, I was born and raised in the NE, and my inception into observed-learn residential construction was different from what I observed when I moved to the SE.
I got over my initial reservations in OSB, but I wasn't sure of its material performance. I could readily see it was cheaper and that logically explained to me why the SE adopted it so quickly. But its not that the OSB was deemed bad, but rather it was a better business approach for the track builders I was now observing in the SE.
Now, what bothered my most of the southeastern construction was the willingness, almost eagerness, to adopt anything 'cheap'. So, enter foam-board in blue and link and all of a sudden every freaking builder down here 'adopts' it. Now, as someone haven grown up on TOH and NE construction practices, I called foam-baord into question. Surprisingly, all of the builders claimed the reason for use was two parts:
First, they said plywood and OSB wasn't needed in structural performance for applications where non-structural areas require sheathing. Second, the claimed that the thermal performance of the foam board was greater than that of wood. I cried B.S. on both of those. Why? Because no one asked the buyer and since when did southern track builders care about energy performance in the homes they were building?
Then, OSB prices started to climb and foam-baord usage took off in greater and greater volume. Then 2-3 years ago another product enters to compete/replace in the foam-board market. Its fiber-board. Just like foam board in that its a lot cheaper than wood, no used in 80% of the sheathing surfaces, and marketed by builders to homebuyers as having a lot more thermal performance than wood.
Sorry, if the builder cannot get a home within reasonable energy-performance in the SE then they need to quit calling themselves builders (what a joke). I'd feel a lot better having a track builder be honest and say, "foam board is just as good in thermal performance as wood, but its now 1/5 the price of OSB and takes 1/3 the time to cut and put into place."
Of course, using OSB and playwood would take away from the brainwashed-adoption of the cardboard home mentality they seem to forward.
Yes, I heard that 80k figure too! HOw much money does a guy have to have before his mentality can say, "I want these stairs and 80 k is OK".
No judgement here, just can not imagine have any amount of money which would allow me to make such a chose.
"I can't bear to watch the current season of TOH..."Something I do all day and then to come home and watch it on the idiot box is way beyond my comprehension.
The price differential between plywood and OSB has narrowed to the point where the plywood is not a huge upcharge.
Not so long ago, OSB was under $4 a sheet, which made plywood a tougher sell.
In New England, plywood has remained very popular.
Here in earthquake country, 1/2" Structural #1 ply is SOP for sheathing.
-- J.S.
I've been half wondering if they haven't been stuck using ply to meet their engineering requirements. The steel for the master vanity being an example of the "tech" push on this. The cantilevered, stone veneered chimney "chase" another.
Would seem to be a "good" owner on this one, saved for more than a decade, so he can afford things like, "Here, Tommy, I need a thrid floor deck." Or, gee, that front wall would look a lot better another 40' longer . . . "
Now, I could never live in a Modern (style) house, but I am impressed with how much they (and the owner) are "doing right." The window trim, the floating vanity, that sort of thing that is so important to the style, is also very hard to do.
I'm half waiting to hear that there's to be no base, jsut the wall "floating" down to the floor.
"So, seeing real plywood used for the complete exterior sheathing was a surprise to me when in reality it shouldn't have been."
Why shouldn't it have been used on the hole house in reality? I use plywood for whole houses and additions every day.
i think its because here in the southeastern part of the country with the humidity and bugs "real" wood don't last long
Why shouldn't it have been used on the hole house in reality? I use plywood for whole houses and additions every day.
I agree and support the idea of wood for the entire exterior sheathing of a framed house. I wasn't necessarily knocking OSB, but rather the overly supportive nature of the building industry to replace wood with foam and fiberboards. They claim the benefits of foam and fiber based boarding as a sheathing material is thermal performance. I say BullSh!t. If a builder was really worried about thermal performance then they'd approach it differently in terms of using spray-on foam insulation for it.
Personally, I think builders love foam board in-use because it affords quicker installation as one Mexican with a utility knife can cut & throw into place in a fraction of the time it takes to handle 4'x8' sheets of wood with a circular saw. My personal opinion, of course, but when OSB was the same price of these foam boards and fiber-boards I'll take the strength (whether its necessary or not) over minimal thermal performance of non-wood options.
Just out of curiousity, why do you prefer plywood?
I personally side with Andy that my preference is OSB. Plywood has some good qualities but some poor ones as well.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Even on roofs?
I'll take Advantech for subfloor, hands down, over any other product. And I'm starting to come around to like OSB for wall sheathing after this house I'm currently framing. Maybe we finally got some 'good stuff' but the OSB we've been getting for the wall sheathing on this house has been pretty good. No where near as "flaky" as the stuff I remember. To be honest, this is the first house I've framed with OSB wall sheathing in four or five years.
But I still don't like it on roofs. I like 5/8 fir for roofs with rafters at 16oc.
>> I like 5/8 fir for roofs with rafters at 16oc.I agree, just did mine that way. Though I also used ply everywhere else too.
Yeah, even on roofs.As you noted, Advantech is the best for subflooring (which I consider to be OSB, some look it as another animal). I'm tired of wrestling with warped ply for any sheathing, especially when T&G or H clips are involved.As to OSB on roofs, I have not looked for a problem but I have never noted an issue with OSB on the roof. I'm very open to the possibility that there are issues, but like I said I have not seen them. I've used 7/16" OSB on rafters 24" o.c. in sub situations and although I would not say it was the most solid feeling substrate available it got the job done.Let me reiterate (so I don't get flamed) that I, personally, have not seen issues that I have attributed to OSB on roofs. That does not mean they are not out there, I just have not noted them.Brian, what problems do you see with using materials less than 5/8" @ 16" o.c. on roofs?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, I don't see a problem with all materials other than 5/8" ply... I just said that it's my preference. I think that 5/8" ply does a great all around job as roof sheathing, that's all. It's rigid enough to make it very comfortable to work up there.
I also think it does a better job than 1/2" ply in "smoothing" out a roof frame. I'd guess that somewhere around 80% of the roofs I frame are 10 and 12 pitch roofs with relatively long rafter spans averaging somewhere around 20 or 22'. That means we're working with a good deal of hem-fir 2x10 which can have crowning issues. We'll knock off a particularly high crown with a saw or planer, but even still some sneak by. I just think the 5/8" ply gives the flatest roof out of the three we're talking about. Up until about a year ago we used 1/2" fir for roof sheathing most of the time. The past year or so I'm seeing more and more 5/8" ply being specified. I've just noticed that the roofs seem to coming out a bit flatter.
Snow loads are also a factor here. I have seen telegraphing of trusses through 1/2 OSB on 24" OC rafters a few times. Who knows, maybe it was a design flaw or something else contributing, but that particular development I'm thinking of had a few roofs with this problem. It's the only development I've worked in that had all three things in common.... 24oc trusses, with 1/2 OSB, and a telegraphing issue.
To be fair, that development is also the one time I put my foot through a roof as well. That may have soured me prematurely to OSB on roofs.
Anyway, you had asked another poster why he preferred ply over OSB. I thought I'd offer another opinion and ask you what your preferred. I wasn't trying to get you flamed or anything. And I agree, right now anyway Advantech has no equal for subflooring. I consider it OSB as well. Just a higher grade if you will. I'd love to see it catch on here for roof sheathing and wall sheathing instead of just subflooring.
"I'd guess that somewhere around 80% of the roofs I frame are 10 and 12 pitch roofs with relatively long rafter spans averaging somewhere around 20 or 22'. That means we're working with a good deal of hem-fir 2x10 which can have crowning issues."You wouldn't have this problem if you used I joists for the rafters. And besides, think how much money you won't have to get paid if you used I joists since they're so much faster.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
LOL
Hey Brian - you ever use advantech for roof sheathing?Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
diesel,
20 to 22 foot span or rafter length??
Rafter length.... my bad.
Just out of curiousity, why do you prefer plywood?
Sorry, I wasn't trying to impress the opinion of plywood vs. OSB. I thought I recognized and understood the business sense in going from plywood to OSB as the early cost differential was great. But my concern, which it opinion and principal driven, is the lack of willingness to engage non-wood products like foam board and fiber-baord.
Track builders like to market their decisions as one of material performance when in reality its their wallets' performance.
Seeing all of the post here, and the OSB / plywood debate makes me wonder: What did the old time carpenters think when plywood replaced real wood 1 x 6 diagonial sheathing on exterior wall and 1 x 8 real wood roof decking?
What did they think when builders started using 1 x 4 let-in bracing, with asphault impregnated sheathing, foamboard insulating sheathing or just building felt?
Last week I was asked if I would use fiber mesh concrete without steel reinforcement in a driveway or patio, as some builders are now doing.........No, not yet.
I wholeheartedly agree. I think using perfectly straight and square sheet goods that outperform their intended use, like OSB, has completely revolutionized carpentry. I shudder when I think of the days when nobody had tape measures longer than 16 feet, no square sheet goods, or even dreamed of mixing more than a few yards of concrete at a time for a nice even pour.
I used to work with a soft-headed romantic who honestly believed a good man nailing sheathing with two inch nails could keep up with the modern staple gun!
TX, every generation complains about the newfangled products coming into use. Every generation thinks the old way was the best way.
The log house builders think stick frame is stupid.
The wood guys think steel framing is idiotic.
I had a teacher in my carpentry apprentice class tell us that every house framed with trusses would fail in the next ten years.
Carpenters resisted the use of power saws.
Painters fought againt the use of rollers, then later fought against the use of sprayers.
The list is endless.
I'm sure there are pharohs rolling over in their pyramids because they aren't building using solid chunks of stone.
The naysayers say that the houses won't last, yet I don't see anything but that old wood framed houses falling down. The houses built in the fiftys with rafters are sagging and the trussed houses stand proud.
I'm not worried. If the osb laden houses fail, that will give all the remodelers plenty of work in their old age.
blue
>> The naysayers say that the houses won't last, yet I don't see anything but that old wood framed houses falling down. The houses built in the fiftys with rafters are sagging and the trussed houses stand proud. <<
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but don't you think that "The houses built in the fiftys with rafters are sagging " because lack of (adequate) building codes? To me, truss or stick may be better depending on the specific house design. When I look at an old house that is framed with 2x4 rafters or 30" OC (or some other wacky #) I just shake my head and smile. I can do that cause I'm not a remodeler :-)
txlandlord,
I don't really get involved in any new construction projects to speak of
As a result--- I am sure over 90% of the houses I work on( primarily roofing) are 1x6 or more commonly1x8 sheathing on 16" centers
5/8" plywood on 16" centers would be a distant second choice for me personally
I have( in sheer numbers---but not as a percentage of total work)----been on plenty of 7/16 osb decks over 2 foot oc trusses---also 1/2 ply on trusses--------- the best I can say is they work----but I don't consider 'em" fine"------- just functional.
And---despite what blue says---------some materials---and the resulting installations are just ordinarily BAD-------- vinyl siding comes to mind
It's reached the point where If I am replacing a window or a door---or otherwise have to poke into a vinyl sided wall------ I now EXPECT there to be pretty massive amounts of framing and sheathing needing replaced.
working on houses with redwood claps over syp sheating------- well rot is a rare encounter------- not an expectation like with the vinyl sided situations.
Admidtedly---- I am only hired to work on situations that have problems-------so I typically only encounter failures---not successes.
Stephen
I was not wanting to start controversy / OSB vs plywood.
I do use OSB often, unless a client wants plywood.
We use OSB mainly for price differance, and to offer more competitive pricing. I do not see it as a compromise, but a good product. The price differance is as close as I have seen it lately, about $2.00 per sheet. Usually, it $3.00 - $4.00 per sheet. At $2.00 per sheet, we just ordered 150 sheets for the walls and 220 sheets for the roof on one of our homes. A $740.00 + tax savings could buy a new Dell for our office, or pay for 2 of my plane tickets to Memphis, next week, etc.
We have used OSB wil good sucess, no call backs because of roof or wall sheathing. All of our framing is 16" O.C. We use plywood clips for the roof, and (minimually) cover with 30 / 35 year dimensional shingles.
OSB qualifies as shear panels for the Texas Department of Insurance Windstorm Code, and I believe it is on the list of approved products for Dade County FLA. All the recent and destructive hurricanes have not changed the list.
If it ain't broke, why fix it?
" If it ain't broke, Why fix it?"
Actually,-------- I tend to think along the lines of " When it DOES break, how will I fix it?"
working almost exclusively on older houses----all of which have " stood the test of time"--- I tend to measure the concepts of "good" or "fine" or "quality"------- with a different measure than " how fast can I install this--or how in-expensively can I buy it"
4x8 panels---admitedly here to stay----- excell in some regaurds------but are decidedly inferior in other aspects------------ it's those " other aspects" where I earn my bread and butter.
I am not trying to be snotty----just to point out that I view plywood and osb with some of the same---oh, I don't know---maybe slight disdain???? that many of you view styrofoam sheating installed with roofing guns and a utility knife by $7/hour mexican illegals----------- just a different perspective.
Stephen
I tend to think along the lines of " When it DOES break, how will I fix it?
Would that there were more like you, particularly in the automotive engineering field!Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Andy,
Watching the current This Old House episode
Tommy Silva is installing a roof mounted deck over a seamless rubber roof------AND he is glueing the IPE to the rubber
apparently I am the only guy in North America to think----- " tommy----how ya gonna repair or replace that roof now?---Of course that scupper is never gonna be a problem ,is it?"--------
Probably just me--- but I didn't think tropical hardwoods are best used as a disposable commodity.
Is there such a thing as an immoral application of resources?---- or if we can afford to buy something are we absolved of all further ethical considerations regaurding it's use?
Ahhhhh, wadda I know, Stephen
Good points, Stephen.
I did an article many years ago with a guy who was a high end commercial roofing specialist. He did many roof decks on his own house on Florida's Gulf Coast. All, and I mean all, of the decking was done on what were essentially pallets that could be lifted for cleaning the roof of debris, repair, what have you. Dumb as roof decks can be, I think he had a decent system. I hope that house is still there. It was in Appalachicola, about the only place I've ever liked in Florida.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
roof mounted deck over a seamless rubber roof------AND he is glueing the IPE to the rubber
Gluing the step-up blocks, that, I could almost see. Gluing the ipe to the sleepers I could almost see. But, he was pinning the ipe to every other sleeper! So, it's not like he was saving any fasteneres, or limiting the number showing. Some one will have to come along ad make sure all those nail/pin holes get 'dressed' right--so that can't be it, either.
I kept waiting to see what cool, $$$$$$, no-visible-fasteners, way that ipe was going to go on the sleepers.
Like you, my first thoughts were for what gets under that deck, and how to get it out (or back). Get some leaf debris up against the sleepers, and/or that scupper. Now how does that get cleaned on the third floor?
Somehow, a coathanger nailed to a broomhandle on an extension ladder seems real likely by next fall . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I've done many of these type projects. In all cases the deck was panelized (that wasn't in some of the plans, but I refused to honor my warrenty unless I could get to the roof). I've installed copper flat seam and epdm under decks. I've glued epdm to the bottom of the sleepers for padding in both cases. I'm doing a similar project (hopefully this week) and I'll post some pictures.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
I've glued epdm to the bottom of the sleepers for padding in both cases
Yeah, and that's a detail and method I'm familiar with. Gluing the uncured rubber to the sleepers, and then gluing that to the deck, then gluing expensive tropical hardwood (with a 6d finish nail gap) over that--that, I'm less familiar with.
The 'tight' decking does limit the number of "guest" items that might be lost under the deck. I'm just wondering how long it will take a melting Boston snowfall to drip throgh those tight deck boards and out the scupper.
I'm wondering if they will remember to but a gate in the railing where it closes off the "roof" from the deck . . . Be a shame, to have walk-out access to the roof, but have to vault a safety railing to use it <g>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I tend to think along the lines of " When it DOES break, how will I fix it?"
LoL! That's what I'm usually thinking, looking at big-builder framing <g>
Just want to have that mental image in my head when I find another 12" deep header (in a partition, not load-bearing, wall) that has been spliced the extra 2" to reach the Jacks . . .
I'll admit to looking at all structures, and trying to envision what sorts or remodeling will be done to them, and "how." (that can be deperessing at times, fair warning.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
fiber mesh concrete without steel reinforcement in a driveway or patio, as some builders are now doing
LoL! The fibremesh can't be any worse than rusty, wavy, stepped-on-and-pushed-to-the-bottom-of-the-pour woven wire mesh. Probably better for being more evenly distributed though the concrete.
Though, some of the claims I've heard for glassfibre as admixture sound as if they are only omitting rhuematism, moth spots, and 'the vapours' that fibrenmesh cures . . .
But then again, I think of #3 @ 15" OCEW as a "minimum" for driveways . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Right, we never use mesh. #3 - 15" O.C. both ways.
With lumber pirces as voltile as they are - especially OSB, sometimes the price of plywood is actually below OSB. Surprizing but true.