So I’m off of drain lines and on to supplies…sweated up a bunch of stuff and no leaks, but the copper unions I used to connect the water heater are giving me a little trouble. I’ve cranked them down pretty good, and still I’m getting the tiniest little bubble of water out of them. I’m nervous about tightening them too tight, as I often do with compression fittings, and ruining the fitting.
Is it normal for them to leak a tiny bit till the copper has a little time to seat to itself? or should I just keep cranking on them till the leaks stop?
Steve
Replies
the leak won't stop on it's own unless you have enough minerals in the water to plug up the supply line....
open the nut and put a nice coating (thin) layer of pipe sealant on the ferral and the seat it rests in..
tighten 'er back up...
but only till ya have it really snug...
pressurize the line an look see if yur leaking....
keep tightening till the leak stops or something breaks...
but wait there's more!!!!
if the ferrel has caved into the the pipe ya went a might tight....
if the ferrel is loose on the pipe you have a weee bit more of tightening to do....
BTW....
if they are off shore components...
all bets are off.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC,I think you are talking about compression fittings, which I have taken to using pipe dope on as a matter of course, which has drastically reduce the number of problems I've had with compression fittings. This particular fitting is a copper union fitting. No ferule involved, More of tapered head going into a tapered socket.Steve
Edited 5/21/2008 8:32 am by mmoogie
yup...
got it...
right fittings wrong job....
dope the mating faces and threads with pipe dope that has teflon in it...
it acts as a thread lubricant and a sealent at the same time...
crank it down and go report to the showers...
still if it's a fitting made off shore...
still no bets....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the threads don't do any sealing, so, thought the pipe sealant will lubricate the threads (and help you get it tighter) it'll be much tougher to get it apart.I advise my guys on the ship to put neverseize on the threads, maybe a splash of teflon paste on the mating surfaces. Recently though, the unions we get have flat faces with one side grooved for an O-ring (gots to remember to remove that O-ring if it's a welded or soldered joint).Cheers
Marine Engineerfair winds and following seas
Thanks to all for the wealth of good information. I've taken to pipe dope and teflon tape on most everything. Just never had occasion to install unions before, so I thought I would try them straight out of the box. Luckily a little more turn of the screw got it good, but next time I'll probably lightly dope the faces.Steve
the threads don't do any sealing,
right...
so, thought the pipe sealant will lubricate the threads
yup...
(and help you get it tighter)
yup....
it'll be much tougher to get it apart.
nope...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The best solution that I have found is to put a little film of pipe joint compoound on the mating surfaces of the union. It's just enough gunk to fill in the leaky spot.
Bob
What your describing is what has happened to me for many many many years.
Here's where I have problems
*attaching copper water pipes to H20 heater
*installing a new shut off valve for washing machine
I do these things several times a year and without fail it always leaks.
Here is what I used the last couple of times and it worked GREAT
http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=212
I don't seem to have anyproblems hooking up water to a toilet, sink faucet, dishwasher, etc.
It's just this stuff that you have to crank down really tight.
Good luck !
.
+++
Spring Break = Summer Broke
Mr. Fix It,I used to have chronic problems with threaded fittings too. Now I use teflon tape with pipe dope on top of the tape and I no longer have problems with those. I avoid compression fittings like the plague, but find a little pipe dope on the ferrules helps. I love braided stainless supply lines with rubber washers in them.These unions I thought I would try bare. No luck.Steve
These unions need to meet straight. If you had to muscle them into fitting together, maybe they went out of solid joint. You may need to take it apart and check if meeting surfaces are smooth and there is no scratch or so forth. Did the water heater settle or become out of plumb after filling with water? Pipe compound may work, just make sure not too much squeeze into the pipe. If you have the pipes clamped tight above, try loosening these and reconnect the union. If the leak is one drop per every 30 seconds or so, you might want to wait a week and see if corrosion or minerals plug it up. How is your water pressure? Hope this helps and good luck.
Went back to it this morning and it was still leaking. Gave it another yank with the wrenches and it seems to have stopped. Guess I was just being too timid. Thanks all.Steve
As noted by others some pipe dope does wonders.
What you have is a "ground joint" union which is metal on metal, just so happens to be the toughest thing to seal.
In the future prep both sides with emery cloth to help smooth out factory imperfections & use some pipe dop on the threads as well as the mating surfaces.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Plumbbill,
Pipe dope is great, but have you found something that will take it off your hands? Everytime I use it I end up wearing it for days.
Scrubs, comet, gojo.
You are probably using Rector seal # 5, that stuff is a friggin pain to get it off what ever it touches.
I use Megalok¯ by Hercules, it comes out of your clothes & you don't have to take your skin off to get it off your hands.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Ditto what k1c said -- unions have to meet EXACTLY, with no angle between the two pieces. It helps if one end of the pipe is a bit loose so it can easily move and twist to make an exact fit.
A little bit of any sort of goo (faucet lube, thread seal, etc) on the union faces and on the shoulder where the nut rides will help things slide into alignment easier and will help prevent seepage leaks.
I have had brass fittings with defects in them that leaked right through the wall of the fitting. Probably becoming more common with everything coming from China.
Are you using dielectric couplings on your water heater? if so, (as you should) they have a rubber gasket in them. Shouldnt be a problem.
>>Are you using dielectric couplings on your water heater? if so, (as you should)<<No. I don't even know what they are. What are they and why should I be using them? I'm using plain copper unions, not brass, simply as a way to be able to swap out the water heater, which is about 12 years old in in a damp environment, and everything in this cellar looks corroded. I figure this water heater doesn't have a lot of time left in it, and wanted to simplify the swap-out when the time comes. It was originally installed with no unions, copper FIP adapters on the galvanized nipples. I switched to brass 3/4x3/4 coupling into 3/4 MIP adapter, sweated to copper pipe, sweated to copper union.Steve
dissimilar metals having water flow through them form a battery. (Actually, similar metal form a battery too, just not as pronounced) As it happens, steel gives up its electrons much easier than brass or copper. Electrons are more or less the glue that keeps things together, so when the electrons go merrily off in the water, the steel corrodes and flakes away.Dielectric couplings break the electrical continuity of the pipe, and help to preserve the steel.Other tactics involve using a sacrificial anode. On ships we put zincs in all our heat exchangers, etc. because zinc gives up its electrons even easier than steel. For the hull of the ship, we use a "cathodic protection" system, where we actually run current through the hull of the ship to supply the electrons to the steel.Marine Engineerfair winds and following seas
>>dissimilar metals having water flow through them form a battery<<So my dissimilar metals are the steel tank in the water heater, the brass coupler on the galvanized nipples into the water heater (all of about 1/2 lineal inch of brass actually in contact with the water), and the copper pipe fitted to the brass couplings? The unions themselves are all copper in contact with the water, with a brass nut, but the nut never sees the water.>>Other tactics involve using a sacrificial anode<<Does my anode rod in the water heater serve that purpose and negate the need for dielectric unions?In short, should I be worried that I haven't used dielectric unions? The previous set-up was steel tank/galvanized nipples/copper. No brass, no unions.Steve
Edited 5/22/2008 12:07 am by mmoogie
The anode is there to protect the heater, but doesn't negate the need for the dielectric unions. You said you installed the couplings to enable easy swap out when the heater eventually fails (which you predict fairly soon ... next couple of years or so).Installing dielectric unions will prolong this heaters life, but by how long? Is it worth it? When will it fail? While you're around to take counter measures? Or while you're away on vacation?Does the anode still have some meat on it? Is the tank showing signs of weeping? Does it look like it will imminently fail? Assess the risk, and make a decision on how to proceed. Do some homework, and when it comes time to renew and upgrade, you'll have a plan already mapped out as to what you need to do to make this install 100%.Marine Engineerfair winds and following seas
Our tank is installed with galv nipples, no dielectric unions, copper pipe, and has lasted 32 years. If I were installing new I'd probably use all that stuff, but it's not worth getting your shorts in a knot about it.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
"cathodic protection" system,
When I bought my car the dealer tried to sell me a system like that.
Do you know if it is effective on an auto?
If so does it just protect the body?
don't know. It's standard on every ship, but for a car???? not sure. If it's just zincs anchored to the body of the car, it may do some good. If it's more sophisticated than that, it might just be a scam, as our impressed current cathodic protection system takes a lot of monitoring and adjustment.marine engineerfair winds and following seas
It seamed like a scam.
$500.00 basically a box wired to the battery and body that sends a constant low voltage out.
No maintenance they said.
About making replacement easier, the pipe placement of next heater may not match what you have now. When you do replace, just place the shut off valves (ball valves) high enough so future pipes can be changed below the valves and don't use the union.
I bought anode rod because warranty doubled with it but found impossible to remove the fittings from the heater by myself. Returned the rod. I decided against damaging anything while trying to unscrew the fitting. A poster on this site did advise that it takes 2 people.
I was advised against using flexible copper pipe. Maybe because the two pipes need to be connected with ground wire. Hope this helps.
Your water is not copper and if you hook directly to it you the dissimilar metals will cause corrosion. The dielectric fittings will isolate the copper from the cast iron and keep it from corroding.
First a lot of steel nipples have a plastic lining.Thus the water never comes into contact with them. Look at those that they sell at the home horror stores in the WH section.The next thing is that you go from steel to brass. That Brass is an intermediate in the galvanic scale between steel and copper. It is allowed to be used as an isolator between them. But IIRC it needs to be 6" long.But if you have the lined steel nipples you don't have a problem in the first place..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Try plumber's grease. DanH may be referring to the same thing as faucet lube.
It's almost like vasoline, but made for faucets, etc.
It seems to give the fitting some lubrication, while filling in any small spaces.
Have used it numerous times with much success.
Bryan
"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City