Its time to talk about wood stoves
The air in Arkansas has turned off cool . Winds at night are crisp and the mornings dont seem to be too far from a light frost,… be comming.
Been to the seasons thread and made me ponder about the up comming season after this one . This is however preparing season as its comfortable to be out and in the woods. Leaves are beginning to swirl their way to the ground so the call of the sap falling is on its way. Weve made another year to see the golden colors begin to adorn the mountain sides. I went out this afternoon and watched in silence as leaves trailed their way down the mountain creek.
I walked the logging road on our wood lot and spotted 7 trees that need to come down for they were pretty much bare. A large Walnut is dead. I know that its a shame to cut a live one for the lumber is expensive. I walked up to it and noticed thats been ruined for its a den tree. I dont remember burning one or splitting such a large one . Ill have to get some tests done before I come back to get it . Looks like two good loads with a lot of splitting. The trunk will be a large load by its self.
Been thinking this year about buying log ends from a hard wood mill and stoking a small wood stove I dont have yet. Ive got a cabin with about 900 sgft. Weve been discussing what kind of stove to buy. I dont need to be bending over to the floor to load one , so a stand would be nice. Im used to 16 to 24 inch wood but the cabin only needs 12s. We want a glass door to enjoy the fire like the monster weve got at home . Since glass doors have come out in the last 20 years? , Ive learned that a front flow of incomming air is critical to keep the glass clean. Thats moves us to what kind to buy.
What say you people of the stove jury?
Got some links ?
It tis the season with goblins lurking ,…
Tim
Edited 10/7/2005 6:12 pm ET by Mooney
Replies
Jotel makes a real damm fine product..pricy , but IMO, the best.
I just opted to get a stove from Vogelzang, not in the same market as you, I need HEAT not pretty glass doors. 2400 sqft and only one 6'' flue here.
If cost is an issue (like when is it NOT)..google Vogelzang, they have a wide array to pick from.
As an aside, walnut can be a great wood for burning, but you really need to mix it up with other stuff..it creates a white powdery ash, that can actually smother it self in a short time, unless yer infeed air is really moving the out flow air..which means, there goes the heat up the stack.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Only $999.50*(includes delivery charges)
*Add $75.00 if "liftgate" service required for home delivery.NO shipment to Washington State allowed.
View ImageMore about the HIGHLANDER™
FEATURES:Heavy gauge 3/16" reinforced plate steel with firebrick liningCast iron feed door with large 14.5' x 8' ceramic glass windowSturdy pedestal base with pewter trim edge capsAdjustable high speed (200 CFM) blower INCLUDEDHolds up to 18 pounds of woodSafety tested to UL Standard 1482-1998 and ULC-5627One year unconditional guaranteeBurns up to 8 hours on one fuelingFull "Wrap Around" heat shield
SPECIFICATIONSHeight (Overall)...................32”Width..............................25.5”Depth.................................20”Firebox Depth.....................12”Firebox Width...................18.5"Flue Size (Round).................6”Firebox Volume....1.285 cubic ftDoor Opening......................17"Material..........Cast Iron & SteelFuel...............................WoodBTU Rating (cord wood)...68,000 BTUs (EPA constant - 26,300 BTUs)Emissions........5.76 grams/hourWeight..........................280 lbs.Pcs. per Container..............132
Clearances from combustible wall:Side Wall........15"Rear Wall........12"Corner.............12"
Only $999.50*(includes delivery charges)
*Add $75.00 if "liftgate" service required for home delivery.NO shipment to Washington State allowed.
May NOT be installed in mobile homes, manufactured homes, trailers or tents. (NO Exceptions)
Stove Pipe not included.
Vogelzang HIGHLANDER™ stove meets EPA requirements for CERTIFIED wood burning appliance (stove).
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NOTE: All photographs are for illustrative purposes only and are not meant to be a guide for actual installation. All safety regulations with respect to combustible materials and surfaces are subject to change without notice. Contact local building or fire official about restrictions and installation inspection requirements.
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That wanst cheap ! LOL! Dang!
Tim
Might have to look at these , LOL.
View ImageBX26EWood stoveNot a bad idea now , oh wow.
Glass doors get balck in a hurry, hot fires anneal them in a few years and they break. Steel doors with aristic smaller door cutouts/latch small doors is what we went to after 40 years of experiment and trials.
Yes I know . I would be better off buying an insert at a garage sale no one wants anymore which will have solid doors . They nearly give them away at 50.00.
Tim
I have a lopi patriot
Looks like its well used and has been cooked on too. LOL. Cool.
How old is it ? How does it fare with keeping the glass clear.
I have one with glass doors so I know how to do it if the stove will do it.
Tim
three years old. does not keep the glass clean. put out a soft heat not a blazing heat. i like the first cold week in feb where it drops to low twenty's. I make a pot of stew or chili and let it cook on top all day.
Ok , heres some writing .
Several years back I did quite a bit of reading and research. That gave me an addiction. I started collecting them. I worked on them and resold them. There was a hardware store that carried repair parts 50 miles away which was far enough people here didnt buy those parts. Made a nice little sideline.
I did not get to fire hardly any of those stoves , but just heard things like you just told me. Often two stoves would make one and still had parts for another one .
I came to a conclusion other than being out of touch now . The stove depends on the use you intend it . Or it depends on how you fire it and use it .
Most glass door stoves have to have the wood "fired" at a rising temp of 650 degrees min and up top 1000 is better, then you can shut them down. They will then give you a dancing fire with out clogging the glass. Of course Im assuming dry wood. There is what appears to be a waste of wood doing it and people wont do it . Normally the draw is wide open for 15 minutes till the complete fire box is yellow flame. JUnk houd would stay bull hockey, Im not wasteing that wood like that to look at the fire. Others dont care as long as they see the fire. They simply order enough wood.
Cat converters have to be fired daily is the problem and the stove needs to be .
Then the S flow took back over as a heavyweight contender that allowed an extra chamber for secondary combustion. One stove I cant recall diid it in a huntsman stove by Atlanata stove works I think. They did the awsome . They not only built a stove with an S flow but also included an ignition grid to help burn 90 somthing percent of the violates. If the stove was being ran right . LOL. It always seems to fall back on the user. They made an S draft out of cross flow designs such as putting a baffle in a 55 gal drum stove or simply adding a drum. Problem was those designs were poorly engineered. The single stove didnt have enough air draft to fire it and it was a bigger problem with the double barrel. Cutting som flap doors and filling the bottom barrel you could change the temp of a chicken house! Awsome.
People have a habit of buying the bigger stove than they should have been looking for and the weather somtimes is warmer . So they burn a slow controlled fire that doesnt burn off violates. The stove ends up getting sooted up plus the flue. The best burning inserts that were made[for that purpose] were shallow of nature and wide enough for the length of the wood. Those stoves had a fire brick back that rested behind the first log. The second log was simply stacked on top and the third. The fire and heat went up and fired the next one with the fire brick reflecting the heat back to the logs. That became the most successful design for a low controlled fire for often 12 hour burns .
Im gonna quit , LOL.
Tim
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The Patriot is a basic, small wood heater with many of the same features found in larger, more expensive stoves. Designed for a single room or a cabin-type use in mind, the Patriot rapidly transfers directly to its surroundings. It allows you to warm selected rooms within your home instead of the entire house, thereby reducing central heating bills by as much as 75%. The simple understated lines of this stove contour around a radiant cook-top surface and a wide door for easy loading. Be sure to read the customer reviews at the link to the right.Avaliable as a black, brass, or pewter door and legs option.
Specifications | Warranty | Manuals & Brochures Accessories
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Emissions
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Heating Capacity
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Heat Output
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Max Burn Time
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Firebox Size
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Max Log Size
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Weight
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Construction
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Efficiency
4.4 Grams/Hr.
600 to 1,000 square feet
66,800 BTU's/Hr.
8 Hours
1.6 Cubic Feet
18"
270 Lbs.
1/4" to 3/16" Plate Steel
70% D.E.Q.
Looks perfect. I dont know how much it is yet.
Tim
Picked up a Vermont castings stove free at a garage sale last year, got it for spare parts, exactly the same as the stove in my cabin I paid $200 for in '79!
Read my post to Brown first please.
Continued;
If I was to design a small stove for my cabin that would take low controlled burns with a large capactity of wood to do 8 hours or more ;
I would build a narrow stove , but tall and only deep enough for the lengh of wood cut. Both sides would have fire brick including the back. I would have an S flow with an ignition grid to burn the violates. A small second chamber before it exists to the pipe. The heat would travel up and the sides would reflect back the heat needed for a low volume of air. The load would be derived from the height of the load providing a slow upward burn.
It would also need a bottom compartment for ash with an open drawer shelf 1 inch higher than a coal bucket. That height would make it comfortable to load it . There would need to be a shaker grate to discharge the ash so the fire load would continue uninterupted.
Tim
Edited 10/7/2005 10:13 pm ET by Mooney
This one is the closets one and was just made available. Still falls short in the ash dump and is not lined with fire brick. If it was lined it would not be tall enough for the load required.
Good solid burn modlel though as its for the serious burner.
http://jotulflame.com/118.html
Tim
I picked up an old Blaze king fer my workshop. I have to have the shop door open sometimes because it get's so hot in there. I picked up the stove, pipes, everything for $150. It's worth looking around in the classifieds.
P.S. There is some BS talking going on up here to ban woodstoves because of Global warming. I HATE it when people make these scientific sounding ideas without knowing any science!
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People are entitled to their own opinions; People are not entitled to their own truth.
Jacob
"There is some BS talking going on up here to ban woodstoves because of Global warming. I HATE it when people make these scientific sounding ideas without knowing any science!"
"BS" is quite an accurate description, since global warming is caused by the burning of FOSSIL fuels; and wood is NOT a fossil fuel!
Fossil fuels are non-renewable and have been tied up underground for millions of years and when they are brought to the surface of the earth and burned they contribute carbon to the environment that was not already there (recently) *. That, the experts are fairly unanimous about, is the main man-made contributor to global warming.
Wood on the other hand is made up of carbon that (very) recently originated in the environment, and burning it simply returns it to that environment for recycling - it gets taken back into plants and other organisms during their growth. To be burned again. Remember the "Carbon Cycle" in high school science class?
Whether or not the wood is actually being renewed, wood is still considered to be a "renewable resource".
Older wood stoves and fireplaces are hazardous to the environment because of the smoke and particulate emissions. More of a problem in urban than rural areas. After the legal tangles with the tobacco companies I don't think there's anyone on this forum (or anywhere, I hope) that's unaware of the health hazards of smoke.
When shopping for a wood stove it's a good idea to get one that carries an EPA rating. Some don't need a catalytic heater to pass this standard. Ten EPA stoves have the equivalent emissions to one older wood stove. That's clearly visible at the chimney (no pun intended) - once the fire has started initially there's no smoke - you can see the heat waves coming out, but literally they don't smoke!
Regards - Brian.
*When the earth was first forming carbon dioxide was the dominant gas in the atmosphere of the planet. The appearance of plants allowed the carbon dioxide to be fixed and converted to oxygen via photosynthesis. The formation of oxygen in the air is what allowed us "higher" (ha ha) organisms to evolve and exist. Thus the carbon that was in the atmosphere was taken out of it and ended up fixed deep in the underground geology to pave the way (again, no pun intened) for us. Now us smart people are putting it back into the atmosphere.
Mark Im going to give you a B on that report.
It still depends on people to operate the stove as it was designed.
When you mentioned a stove not really smoking with a new type stove , then they did what they were supposed to.
This is meant for everyone and not pinning you.
First the moisture leaves the fire and thats first in the fire up. That said ;
Lets say you fired a load off and shut it down then went to work. About 4:00 the kid or dw comes in and loads the stove which only has coals. They dont mess with the air. Its gonna smoke for a long time becuse the temp in the stove will fall under 650. Infact it probably will go down to 200. During that time it will be sending up an indian smoke cloud and be a cresote factory . With out the air it will take hours to get the temp up to 650. The most common is in the night . You get up and throw a log on the fire thats damp and cold from the porch outside. Thats like you jumping into ice water. Then heres all that moisture through out the wood and that causes the temp to die. You wanted to go back to sleep and did , but what you needed to do was set up 15 minutes with it and drink some hot cocoa with the air wide open till the firebox has burned off the violates and that takes place at about 650. Then go to bed after shutting it down.
The circulating stoves were poor at buring off gases and are cresote factories unless they are ran hot. No one runs them hot . But they were the best stove to set the draft and go to bed. When the fire caught up with the temp desired in the dial the thermosat closes the air off. Bingo. Theres not a lot of difference in those and furnaces. However with bone dry wood , a hot fire a day and cleaning the flue out a couple times a year , they are great in a basement.
Tim
Since we're talking about wood stoves, and you like my stories...Many years ago I bought a cheap wood stove at a garage sale for $10. I stuck it in the basement, as I didn't have a good way to hook it up in the house at that point in time. My workshop was in the basement, and my oldest Son liked to hang out down there with me while I was working. (He was about 3 or 4 years old then)After a while, some of my tools started coming up missing. Wrenches, screwdrivers, and other small stuff seemed to evaporate into thin air. I checked all over, but never could come up with any of the missing stuff. One day a friend was over and spotted the wood stove. He said he could use it in his gaarage, and would I want to sell it? The thing had sat there for a couple of years and I hadn't gotten anything done with it, so I said I'd sell it for what I had in it. We decided to take a couple of pieces off the stove to make it lighter when we carried it up the stairs. When I took off the top piece where the chimney pipe attached, something shiny in the bottom of the stove caught my eye. I looked inside the stove, and there were all the tools I had been missing for a year or so. Apparently my Son had been dropping them down the chimney opening on top of the stove...
T-shirt: You Probably Don't Recognize Me Without My Cape
Renters kids treat commodes that way . One time I couldnt get the dim thing unstopped as it would keep backing up. Three trips I made and the third time I was a little whizzed off since those calls dont pay anything. Seems that all the water was backed up!!! I went back to the shop and got a router and ran it only to end up in then tank and not be stopped. I even took the commode off and routed it to the tank, Nothing. I knew the lines were clear because I had ran them but the same build up when the router wasnt in there to the tank. I got a shovel and dug down to the lids and removed them. On one of the trips I must have pushed a rubber ball through and it was acting as a seat valve against the solid compartment wall with a set of rubber gloves attached also against the drainage to the large comartment. The small comartment was built in for dispacement of solids which was shut off from the main tank and so then also from the field lines. All from a two year old.
Tim
Tim--
Duane had it right; there is nothing like a Jotul.
I've got a No. 3 that heats this whole place--600sf X 3 stories--in temps that Arkansas will never see, LOL. I am away 11-12 hours per day every day all winter and she keeps going on one load of wood; this stove only needs to get relit maybe three or four times in a winter, usually when I let her go out because we're having a warm spell and the house is getting too hot....
Jotul makes a smaller stove than the No. 3; it's the most widely sold stove in Europe. I can't remember the danged number my brain is so mushy these days, but it's a 3-digit number. Okay, I looked it up: It's the 602. This is what you need for that 900sf cabin.
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That's it. You get that stove and I promise you you will never regret it.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
It's time to talk "changing AC filter", here.
My oscillating fan puked the other day.
Went to K-Mart,Lowes and HD.....no fans, period.Sorry for the rant.If it were easy....a caveman could do it.
I feel your pain .
Renters keep me working on that same thing . It causes damage unreal if its not done.
Tim
Most of the posts so far have given me a lot of good information about burning wood in a stove, but I have a couple of questions? How do you go about sizing the stove to the room or house? Say you what to just take the chill off in the evenings and warm the room your in and maybe adjacent bedroom, is there a BTU = square feet equation. My wife and I are not to comfortable burning wood all night or during the day when we're not home, how safe are they for this?
I know this will be very controversial, but who are the major players in the wood stove market, and who should I just stay away from?
Thanks
Most of the stoves are rated for how many square feet they will heat. Of course, that's way worse than trying to tell you how many miles to the gallon you will get.
Rule of thumb seems to be for EPA wood stoves, look at the capacity of the firebox.
The Drolet I just bought (Mill's Fleet Farm in the midwest is a dealer) claims to heat 500 to 1500 sq feet with a 1.6 cubic ft firebox. My heat loss for the whole 1600 sq ft house is only 26K BTU/hr at -10*F, so I think I will have plenty, perhaps too much heat output from this smallest of the Drolet line.
I assume you read all the thread.
I dont believe you can trust ratings but the size of a box you can trust on having to fill it for a stove to run right . Any stove that Ive ever seen do their thing "loaded".
Your fear of sleeping or leaving the stove unattended is more uneducated than factual. No offense. If the system was designed safe and its cleaned then it is safe. I can only tell you I trust my system 24-7 , but its all masonary with a chimney cap with screen. The stove is considered air tight although its not but there isnt enough draft possible to cause much damage. Probable electric is more dangerous since I didnt put it in and I can see all of it to inspect it.
The kind of fire you speak of would be the best served in a small stove but I like height over width as I described why.
Tim
No offense taken, how can you learn if you don't ask. I remember Smoke the Bear always telling me to put out the fire before you leave it alone, but I guess that was for camp fires not stoves.
Well it sure wasnt meant to be in any way imflamatory. Im glad you didnt take it that way.
You are not alone in being uncomfortable with sleeping with a fire in the house . I dont think there is time in one post to assure you . At least Im not thinking so. I could go into a long speech but I think the best thing for you to do is reseach it your self.
That is why we are here for you to ask questions and you are absolutely right about that. You need to ask. Sorry if I seemed to have brused that concern of yours.
In short :
Stoves are certified to be safe and one of those should be chosen . There are also regulations to adhere to in installation of chimneys or even stove pipes and their clearances. The construction chosen will have specs of clearances to different materials. Since I dont know what your situation would be I can not state per facts in your case. Some people might use an existing chimney or fire place while other may build a masonary or metal flue system. Every material used with a UL listing states its own specs for your saftey. As a building inspector and a mechanical inspector we were taught to use the spec listings . One product may look like another product but be different in actual clearnances as they used a different material so each of those has its own guidelines. Masonary has its own building code specs that are not UL listed of course but set standards of building in its own class of respective codes. However the code cannot override UL listings that have been certified.
I would reccomend you researching it your self but also hiring a certified or lisensed professional if possible . If that is not possible then you will have to know what specs you want used and the bid should reflect what you have specified.
Tim
I agree. The house we just purchased had a zero clearance fireplace converted to gas logs. I was told by the neighbor that the last home owners (now deceased) got to old to carry in the fire wood so it was converted to gas. Personally I would not burn the unvented gas logs so I removed the gas line. And for returning the fireplace back to real logs, not without an inspection, and since I know this unit is about twenty years old, I won't spend the time or money.
My wife grew up with a fireplace (real brick) but her parents never let it burn unattended. We plan on replacing the old with something new and have interest in both a fireplace and/or stove, and thought we could install a smaller inexpensive stove for now while we make up our minds. This thread peaked my interest starting my research.
As for the install, I'm an advanced diy'er and anal retentive mechanical technician in the aerospace industry, if its not to spec/code or better I'm not happy, and I know enough of my limitations to ask for help.
Andy
Now you have a place to start .
If the whole system is zero clearance then probably the flue pipe is as well but with no data available from the dead owner.
The whole system can be pulled for inspection by you or a certified home inspector . They are lisensed, or certified and bonded. Ask about liability insurance with their decisions. Some states require it I think or "you " can. Since you are educated and in the field you are in I think you should be made comfortable in your own case study as I mentioned. If I were you "I " would want to inspect it and read the UL listings my self and if you can retrive a name who made it would provide more reference as every company seems to have a web site which Ive used vigorously. Ive inspected lots of equipment that didnt have papers attached and found them + listings on web sites. The zero clearance fire place would need to be a case study itself + your own inspection. Depending on what you decided to do might also call for omitting the fireplace completely. Im not a fan of venting an insert into a full zero fireplace as I would rather duct a stove direct to the piping used to roof it out. Meaning , if it was a stove then I would want it piped to the zero connection with a back plate surround . If you found an insert , the I would still want the discharge piped directly and not flowing into the fire place. I normally stuff the remaining space with fiberglass insulation minus paper and exclude it or buy it with out . I normally have faced insulation on hand and remove the facing paper or plastic. Even though that kills a heatalators functions which your unit may or may not have . I have used a masonary fire places metal unit as I stated before, but its better not to and only rely on the chimney its self for the discharge and even insulate around those connections when made directly.
You could of course go back all new with UL listed in 3 wall stainless with a UL approved stove and sleep well at night . However most zero installations have enough clearance for double wall and should be safe if you have such clearances. Three ply would put it to bed maintaining you made proper conncections for an educated DIY, with out the help of a professional. <G>
Tim
crazy about fire, if you go back to my first picture of my stove , you see a brick wall. That is a concrete block outside wall, 2x4 stud with fiberglass. 2 layer of 5/8 fire board drywall, 1 inch air gap then the brick wall. the stove is 18 inches from wall, only need 12. on a concrete slab.
The friend I mentioned earlier who loves his soapstone woodstove has the Palladian (pic below). The soapstone holds heat better than steel/iron, and radiates the heat more evenly. The webpage says it heats up to 1500 sq ft. The friend (who lives in IA) says it has NO problem heating up their 1200sqft house. He says they don't even fire it up until the temp gets below a certain number (can't remember what it was). The webpage says it heats up to 45k BTU, but BTU measurements are always misleading. As someone mentioned earlier, you car might be able to do 120MPH, but that doesn't mean you want to run it at that speed all the time. Personally, I find the "1500 sq ft" a better indicator, but even this number isn't hard science... 1500 sq ft of drafty old farmhouse, or 1500 sq ft of modern, insulated house? But it sounds like you want a smaller stove.
I don't have a small stove recommendation for you, but installed correctly (including the exhast out of the house) and burned correctly, a modern, EPA certified woodstove with sealed doors is safe to burn at night and while you're away from home. It is better to burn a small, hot fire rather than a big, smoldering one. The small, hot fire burns clean, whereas the big, smoldering one produces pollution, creosote, and other nasty stuff that can build up in your stove pipes.
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http://www.woodstove.com/pages/palladian.htmljt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain
I'm going to start a new thread about wood stove surrounds. Curious about what everyone has/uses and general ideas.
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain
John , Ive been saying the same thing , but you said it better. Ive probably expended several posts saying the same thing in different replies . I cant stress it enough, it relies on the user first. I was the one who used the speed of a truck. With my experience of dealintg with people and old wood burners this always comes up so once again Ill make a comparison.
If you were to build a three log fire for the evening or morning to break the chill for a small time spent by the family, the little Jotul would out perform one of the bigger stoves because it would best take advantage of that load size from beginning to end. However at O degrees outside it would only suppliment a furnace . The reverse would be true of a bigger stove. Or would point to that logic .
Tim
On the palladian...I especially like the shadows of the front stiles, from the photographer's lights... on the "fire".LOL
On the palladian...
I especially like the shadows of the front stiles, from the photographer's lights... on the "fire".
That's what it looks like. Don't suppose its the:
"Built-in andirons keep wood back from the front window and away from the air wash."
Their website needs some work.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Edited 10/12/2005 10:38 am by JohnT8
I suppose if that were they were them, theyud look like andirons in front of the fire, instead of shadows on a cardboard fire.;o)LOL
You got me curious. Hmm, looks like we were both wrong. It aint' a shadow, apparently it IS the andirons. Here's a pic that my friend in IA had sent me last year. That's a real fire in the pic.
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jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Edited 10/12/2005 11:08 am by JohnT8
Yup, it looks that way.I'm not ready to get out the ketchup for the crow yet, though. I'm not convinced that isn't a cardboard fire in the advertisement.=0)
Yup, it looks that way.
I'm not ready to get out the ketchup for the crow yet, though. I'm not convinced that isn't a cardboard fire in the advertisement.
Send for their free product info. They include a short VCR video. That picture might be part of the video presentation. I had the tape, but I think I gave it away to someone who was looking for a wood stove.
:)
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Send for the free video ???Heck, son, I don't like crow THAT much !!;o)
Now if I can just find out what one costs.
mine was $599
They are trying to hold me up or they have had a price increase.
LOL
Tim
be honest, I got mine on a stove business going out of business, I walk in and said I give you $600 for the floor model, He claimed, where your pu. It was last day, last Lopi he had. How much new, no idea. Mine is lined with bricks so once its hot it put out a even heat. you can almost sit on top of it. Not like some that glow red all day. Remember I,m in an area where heating not bad, so its perfect for me.
Ok , the results are in :
The 602 can only be had in one expensive place in Ft Smith.
602 @ 670.00. After further review the air comes in directly below the glass in the door which is actually in the door and there seems to be a big sliding vent . It would let a lot of air in to "fire" a load. I like it. Its unclear is it has sencondary air chamber or is baffeled , but there seems to be room . There is no cut away pic provided and the sales man was dumb as far as stove savy. I vizulize a tie on him.
I priced the patriot which is the least expensive and smallest Lopi. This is a smaller stove than Brownbag has and doesnt have the fancy door trim. Just plain jane with what looks to be the same features as his. I dont like the draft in connection to the glass . Its way to low to keep it clean and on sight I agree with Brownbag that the lack of air for cleaning the glass is the only negative. he states that the stove doesnt get hot and would seem it point to the same air problem. The air inlet is in the bottom of the stove at the level of the bottom of the ashes . What looks to be as much as 3 inches from the glass. Price on the Patriot listed today was 1158.00. Close to double the price of the above. wow. Nice looking stove though and certainly the most popular style since I took a look at several different ones such as Buck, Country Flame [which I have the monster rated at 3000 sq ft] and a few more.
I rate the Jotul as the best design in that it gives a narrow box but tall so logs are stacked on top for the continueing burn. Since it is narrow , the air inlet would fully service the whole load in my mind.
The huge , wide Coumtry Flame was a mistake. To make that thing do its thing takes several arm fulls of wood to load it . The box is so wide with a narrow center are inlet , the out side box starves for air and heat. It actually burns a hole through the wood first in the middle and leaves the out sides for last . Mean while the remaining load is split robbing both ofn heat from each other . Ill post it for all to look at it . Its a prime example of what Ive been trying to preach about.
Tim
Edit ; Opps , I was pricing Brownbags stove
Edited 10/8/2005 12:21 pm ET by Mooney
View Image
Country Flame BBF Specs
Max. Heating Capacity:
Up to 3,000 Sq. Ft.
Max. Log Size:
29"
This monster is in my living room where I live. The air is closer and not too hard to keep the glass clean, but the glass on the out sides are alwways black. On mine you never notice the side panels for they are always covered. Also again notice to continue the burn with this model the load if horizontal wide so the fire has to follow an un-natural path where there is no air. Where the stove takes a 22 degree turn and picks up those panels is a full 8 inches per side . The side distance over all is 6 to each side. Notice the air opens at the center- out. Wrong design.
Tim
The 602 can only be had in one expensive place in Ft Smith.
602 @ 670.00.
If you can get a Jotul No. 602 for only 670 bucks, go for it! That same stove up here is well over a thou. In '97, we paid $1700 for the No.3 and it is probably over $2000 by now.
BTW, don't be surprised at the weight of that lil' bitty thing when you go to pick it up. Jotul's cast iron is ALL iron. They don't blow air into the molten metal as is common in SE asia and China to keep costs down.
When I bought our No. 3, it was to replace a behemoth old Franklin that would swallow a 24" log happily. The No. 3 will take a 16-incher but just barely. I was used to being able to horse the Franklin around sufficiently to yank it off the stovepipe for annual flue cleaning without help. So when the delivery truck showed up with the Jotul in the back, and the driver asked me to help him unload it, I figured silently to myself that the guy must have a bad back or something....
First he took the door off, then he removed the 'parts' kit and everything else removable to lighten it. Then he grabbed one side and braced himself like a weightlifter going for Olympic gold. I'm real glad I didn't snicker out loud, 'cause when I tried to hoist my side, my immediate reaction was to wonder why he'd welded the legs of the stove to the truck bed....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Okay, I've been following this thread andwith all b.t.'s wisdom I was wondering if anybodyhas experience installing wood stoves. I'm considering onefor myself and was wanting to know if the stoves come with good installation instructions. I know they make single, double and triple wall pipe.So do you use the double or triple going threw the roof?
You must use an insulated, certified-for-wood-appliances stainless steel chimney and the approved flashings, mounting pieces/spacers, firestop plates, insulation stops, etc from the manufacturer of the chimney (not his competitors).
In Canada now, most insurance copmanies now require installation by a WETT certified technician or final inspection by a WETT certified person before they will offer insurance for wood heating systems. Check with your insurer!!!
I have installed a few over the yrs. You need a Chimney Support box to carry the flue ( I have only 9' of double wall SS @ 6" ID)..you need a roof cone (flashing) and a storm collar.
All installs vary, there are many things that can be easy DIY, and others that are a headache and $$$$$$$. When the flue passes thru an attic, we are talking insulated, just like if it was outdoors.
Single wall pipe in the heated part of the house, double else where. The larger sixe of triple wall is just another headache, and the newer double wall is adequate in MOST situs.
Often a solution is to go thru a thimble in the wall, and run a stack of double wall SS out side the house....expensive as all get out, but if ya have no other option it can be done.
Ya wanna be certain, that the terminus or cap is well above the ridge or anything with in 10? feet, by about 3' IIRC.
In my case last yr. The chimney cost 2x the cost of the stove..I made a Barrel stove..mebbe 75.00 in all...but MAN it ate wood like a pot head on doritos...not this yr.
I have a 20' run of pipe inside the house, (read more heat gain) and with the new 700.00 stove, I expect to drop from a cord every two weeks, to a cord a month or more..I about quit cutting and splitting my own, I can buy a cord for 50 bucks , I pick it up, less than ten miles away..all real good stuff..LOCUST, Hickory, Oak..and whatever else is in the offering..I can't justify the time and labor at that price, to do it myself. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I can buy a cord for 50 buckMan that is cheap, I wonder what shipping would be onthat to mempho :-)but MAN it ate wood like a pot head on doritos...LOLwith the price of n.g. going up 70%+ I need to do somethingand with me keeping the thermostat on 55 or 60 degrees Ifreeze all winter long.Do you know anything about those heaters I posted in my postto experienced? Tractor supply has it for $125.00 compared tothe cost of all the other wood stoves that is very CHEAP!
Im gonna share somthin with you too.
At the wood yard where they saw stave bolts from hardwood which is the wood under the railroad tracks if any one doesnt know what staves are.
They cut the ends off the staves to sqaure . They are about 8x8 x 2 to 6 inches. No bark. They say they dont leave any ash to speak of as its only heart wood.
Heres the deal; They will load you for 15 dollars. They dont classify a load and dont care. They cut them all year long and need rid of them. My cousin uses them and hes had them load a long wheel base pick up lots of times getting 1 cord he figgures. He say some prople have little trailers 4x6 and its the same deal. He bought a 16 ft tandem utility trailer. He hauls off shingles with it so he put solid sides on it. He paid the 15 in the office and they gave him a load ticket . Im laffin here. He pulls around and says to load the pickup and the trailer . Guy dont give a shid and he does it. He figgures he haules off three cords or more.. He doesnt know cause its all piled up. I can lay 6 rick of fire wood in mine stacked just on my trailer. I understand this isnt tight. So I figgure hes getting five rick on the trailer .
DW comes home last week and says the boss bought a 1 ton dump truck and says you can use it . She also advises it has removeable side boards. She also says its 14 foot bed for hauling rollers.
Thats what Im gonna feed that stove.
Tim
Hey Tim, my friends dw of 13 years threw him out after he collected several cords of hard wood ends or cut out knots from a mill that sells hardwood planks to furniture factorys. So her loss was my gain!!!!!!!! 3 cords really cheap!! all kiln dried.. never burned that stuff before(small cuts of planks).. is it different (hotter)then burning seasoned logs...Thanx for any info Toby
I havent burned then yet.
What I hear about ends is they are harder to handle . Carry and Feed . I dont think it wil bother me since they also say they dont make any ash.
Tim
Piffin's in Ireland right now.
He used to sell stoves for a bit and owns a wealth of info.
Not sure when he's coming back, but you might want to drop him and email.
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
A couple of things you mention may not be in your best interests in terms of fire safety:
-( I have only 9' of double wall SS @ 6" ID)..
-Single wall pipe in the heated part of the house, double else where.
-and the newer double wall is adequate in MOST situs.
-and run a stack of double wall SS outside the house....expensive as all get out, but if ya have no other option it can be done.
Double wall black pipe is not to be used as a chimney for wood appliances! Its purpose is as flue pipe in areas that have reduced clearances to combustible materials. Usually the standard for single wall pipe is 18"; some of the newer double wall pipe is safe 6" from combustible surfaces and furniture.
AS for double wall Stainless Steel as chimney, in Canada, it must meet ULC standard S629 which requires (in most manufacturers brands) 2" of insulation between the double wall and that the chimney be able to pass a test of 3 simulated chimney fires (2100 deg F for 10 min) with out any buckling or distortion of the inner liner. There is a similar standard for the US. In a more recent post, the second EPA stove (the only one I checked out) required either one or the other certified chimneys!
-I have a 20' run of pipe inside the house, (read more heat gain)
Good practice is to have no more than 10' of flue pipe and 2 elbows before entering the chimney. Taking too much heat out of the flue gases may reduce the temperature to a point where condensation/creosote occurs in the parts of the chimney exposed to the cold exterior temps. Sacrificing a few degrees of temp to reduce/eliminate creosote is a good deal!!!
Too many elbows in an installation can reduce flue gas velocity and give a poor burn rate. One elbow has as much drag resistance to air movement as 10' of smooth pipe. Remember, the chimney/flue gas temperature and flue gas velocity are the "motor" of the system. If flue gas is not exiting properly due to to many restrictions/elbows or low temperature, not enough air (oxygen) is drawn into the firebox and the fire suffers. No good fire = poor heat=no hot flue gases=possible condensation/creosote. One house I consulted on had installed their third increasingly larger wood stove as a result of not realizing the chimney was too large and cold (as were the flue gases). It was not the size of the stove but the size/location of the chimney.
A booklet from the Canadian gov't called "A Guide to Residential Wood Heating" is available to download at: http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/infosource/home/index.cfm?act=search&PrintView=N&Text=N This contains great information on heating safely and economically with wood. (ps. I was a reviewer of the previous version of this document)
Thank you for that reminder. I will assure you, I am in the safe zone with my install. I never had a chance to see doublewall "black pipe" I use SS in my chase above the heated space and a bit beyond..from the stove to the SS, is single wall blue or black for the rise, no elbows at all.
I have two temp gages, one at the second floor level so I can tell my stack temp at a glance, without going down the stairs, and another about 3' above the stove...we operate at the best flue temp vs freezing or overfiring the stove.
I have the rods and brushes and can easily swipe out the flue at any time..it has not needed anything other than a once up and down after the whole last burn season...
With the new stove coming, I am still going to replace all the black single wall for the blued instead, I find it more attractive, and it looks better after a hot burn..
I have had the barrel and 4' of pipe glowing red last yr..overfired BY FAR..so I know the limits. But it was still 20 F 20' away inside the house...
Clearances? sure..my chase above the roof is 2'x6'..witha SS at 12'' diam. centered..my interior pipe is about 18'' from the nearest combustible at one point...and that is white oak logs that housed the first fire place 150 or 175 yrs ago...never too hot to touch or anything..
Thanks for the reminders tho' we all need a heads up once in a while..esp now that a lot of new persons are here on board..and a lot of new wood burners are going toe be involved this season as costs of other fuels skyrocket. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Good job.
I hope ya can choose one ya like..
I am getting a bit miffed at Vogelzang's shipping schedule..I didn't buy direct so I don't have a shipping #...Norther Tool has been aloof too...maybe they all are just REAL busy, heck, it happens to my customers when i get jammed up.
A month to the day....getting chilly. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Had a quick look at the thread and have a few comments:
1) No one has mentioned the efficiency ratings of wood stoves. A more efficient stove uses less wood, burns cleaner and produces much less smoke..... a major source of outdoor (and indoor) air pollution in the winter in some locales. The EPA has a list of clean burning certified stoves at:
http://www.epa.gov/Compliance/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf
2) The cleaner burn and new primary air delivery to the fire (the glass airwash system) allow the glass to stay quite clean if properly sized and dried wood is burnt.
3) Look for a wood stove dealer with some certification from a recognized organization.
In Canada, that would be the Wood Energy Technology Training, Inc (or WETT) They have certification for salespersons/advisors, installing technicians and chimney sweeps. Go to: http://www.wettinc.ca
In the US, go to: http://hpba.org/
Thanks for the link as I didn't see the stove that Iwas looking at on the site you gave, so I'm wonderingif that is a bad thing.I did ck. with my insurance and they said all I neededto do was follow the recommendations of the stove manufacturer.No permits are required.I'm looking on the cheap side and these where two that I'vebeen looking at.http://www.mytscstore.com/detail.asp?pcID=2&paID=1014&sonID=488&productID=9130http://www.vogelzang.com/bx26e.htm
Butch , notice the small one does not have gasketed doors. The deluxe does have and thats a huge differnce. Im thinking about the bigger one for the cabin and saving my money as well. Il see what DW says , cause it wont be me making this decision. <G>
mall one does not have gasketed doorsthanks for the heads up, I don't know a thing about these and am trying to educate myself. I suppose the gasket is to keep
the smoke from escaping?
No, keep a large amount of air from getting in.
As Spere mentioned he was burning a sove that wasnt tight and really put the wood through it . He bought a tight stove to stop it .
Tim
Butch:
Unless it's a matter of a real cash crunch at this time, buy an EPA certified stove if you plan to be a fulltime longterm wood heating family. You'll never regret it!!
Both of those stoves are only 40-45% efficient and will need more purchased wood for the same amount of heat into the house. Some of these stoves are 63%+; check the list.
Im going to read your stuff and I dont want you to think Im ignoring you.
before I do I want to say somthing .
We had extensive talks here on horse power. Then I got a lot more from the time site in picking a tils saw. Its a bunch of lies I say when they tell you what power. We all know that a 4 horse motor on a sears compresor or saw aint shid compared to Baldor motor. A 2 HP Baldor motor will kick a sears 4 horses butt. Hands down . Sears lied.
I doubt Ill pay a lot of attention to values listed on stoves. My stove says it will heat 3000 sg ft . Thats an out right lie. In 1500 sq ft , you will be lookin for a nother place to go. In the first you would need to have Dinos blood . He sleeps nekkid in a tent on the snow. I have to have a Tshirt in 70 % in bed.
Just remember you have to use your head figguring effiency. I can get a 12 hour burn from my stove but when I do Im building cresote. Im not getting a lot of heat out but Im getting the top effciency. Dont get sold on that priciple or you will never operate a stove the way it was built to run. Ive said that above. Ive also listed some things that make it efficient .
The stove design is critical. That says volumes . Primary air , secondary air, draft, secondary combustion, fire brick, size of stove chosen.
To get a big heater efficient you have to load is capacity even if its designed right . The little heater weve been talking about is close to max design while some of ours is not . I believe that small heater day in and day out will be more efficient than a big one but it wont crank it out if it gets really cold like a big one . Often we buy the big one for the coldest weather, but 80 percent of its use is warmer than what we bought it fore. See? 3- 6 inch logs would run that small heater pretty efficiently. In my big stove it would suck and do a poor job of heat transfer. It would waste those 3 logs and not keep the temp higher than 650 thus producing cresote .
The operator has more to do with your statement.
Tim
Yes mooney, the claims of heating a certain square footage is the wrong way to sell a stove. Stoves put out a range of BTU's of heat per hour. A house (or room) loses BTU's to the cold exterior at rates that can be calculated or measured. The colder and windier it is, the more BTU's are lost.
The trick is to match the heater output to the heat loss from the house (room). Better specialty stove stores that have been in business for 10 or more years will have a better feel for this process. 25 years ago (wood become popular again) they used to sell the largest stoves to customers who then complained of too much heat...... who then damped the stove's burn rate down too much..... which created creosote......a bad situation. I actually saw many situations where buckets or cans were used to catch liquid, running creosote from flue pipe joints!!!!
The EPA testing is fairly reliable as its been going on for quite a few years. They have no reason to embellish results as do manufacturers.
To change the subject just a little .
This is mainly editorial before I start.
I dont think stoves were built to handle big heating jobs from the beginning. They arent changed that much that they are capable now. My truck can go over a 100 miles an hour so does it do any good to rate that truck for 100? Yes a stove may reach 65000 btu at peak burn for example but that is only like a climax. The foreplay in building up to it takes a while. If you dont sit there and feed it wood it will come down slowly over a few hours. I would think that if you got an average of 25000 btu out of a 65000 btu heater , would be natural. Most often they are completely shut down at night at bedtime and are asked to go from 10 pm to 6am with out food. Often times they arent putting out 5000 btu. We build the fire in the morning and leave for work and school. Again we are asking at least 8 hours of slow controlled burn time. Some people who depend on it come home for lunch and get up at night to attend them. In the evening and on weekends the stove is pleasing the family by running better temps. It still takes work for the stove to respond to the care. I would say my big stove puts out 75000 in the evening while we are there to enjoy it and I probably keep it at 50000 at night by getting up. That will be 1000 to 1500 degrees. In the afternoon however the temp in the stove may only be 200 degrees.
Think for most americans that use them they are used as addtional heat or alternative. I think most of the time there is a thermosat on the wall thats capable of 100,000 btu or more non stop.
Tim
Generally agreed!
Up here in Nova Scotia (winter low average design temp of about 0 deg F), about 45-50% of homes outside of the main city of Halifax have a wood heating appliance. So wood heat is a popular way to save on heat costs.
In my own 3 level 2,500 sq ft home, wood supplies 80-90% of the heat needed. We load the stove (Vermont Castings Resolute- Original 1979 design) 4-6 times a day depending the weather. Last year heating costs were under $400 Canadian including electric baseboard backup. Some people with open plan designs and truly efficient houses (superinsulated, airtifgt with heat recovery air exchange) use virtually no backup heat except if they go away for extended periods.
If its about $$$ savings, people will make the adjustments.
Now. Taking your assesment of your own situation:
Well just as a general because I dont know how your house is layed out.
As you say is its about dollars,
The stove design I mentioned in a smaller stove may be more efficient utilizing two stoves instead of one. Theres too many days one small stove would be nice to fire with a couple of logs and it be efficient.
I have 4000 sg ft. One third is finished basement with the exception of an equipment room thats not finished.
The basement has a rock fireplace with gas logs because we used to have white carpet down there. No wood would be allowed down there! Its now all ceramic tile but shows a nat on the floor. I still dont want wood on it. I dont need it for heat at all except a little at times . A portable electric heater for a couple of hours would do it.
The mechanical room has a huge Lyndale wood furnace that I cant even run! It puts out too much heat. Since its down stairs it wont really shut off becuse the rising heat will run you out after it shuts down. It always has to be shut down so its a cresote producer. I wish Spere had it . It honks . Thers a 150,000 btu gas furnace beside it .Its new and it honks. The living room upstairs has the monster insert in a rock fireplace. Once its been ran for a few hours the rocks get really warm and the house gets heated from it . I believe the rocks do as much as the stove . Its a massive three flue fireplace that goes three stories through an open A frame ceiling. So my living room ceiling is two stories high plus the angle of the ceiling. About 26 ft from floor to ceiling open. If I maintain 650 degrees in the stove , the gas unit doesnt come on .
It takes two bags of wood to load my stove and I load it four times a day on average. The stove burns 200 lbs of wood a day. The cost of the wood is nothing compared to the gas in the basement furnace. The effort of handling 200 lbs a day is my problem with it. I figgure the little stove I pictured would use 50 lbs a day which would be fun in a living room as additional heat.
Tim
Tim..were we talking about the cabin or the downstairs house heater?
I'll give ya my barrel stove ( can last another 2 seasons easy) if ya want a quick hot fire to warm ya up. Actually, if ya have a barrel, I can strip the works and send it UPS...all ya need is a way to cut the holes and a drill.
I raised it up on blocks last yr. cuz like you, bending low after working all day kinda gets old. We DID have decent heat REAL QUICK...it heats up fast.
So if ya want a cabin type heater, this is it. I thought about the glass door pro and cons...and opted for cheap, and reliable. I had a Sotz ( no longer in production) for many yrs on the same barrel...I even made the last incarnation from a water heater tank! That is a sign of a good system...cut some holes, bolt her up and fire away..
The legs and doors and flue collar is about 20lbs..you supply a barrel, and about 20 1/4-20 1'' stove bolts and some FG Gasket and cement and I added a flap damper....can be yours or anyone down there who needs it...free. Ahem..provided MY mew stove shows up soon..
Whaddya say? Find a home for the "PIG" as we affectionatly call it. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Sorry I confused it .
I wish YOU had this wood furnace . You can have it but getting it out would be a bear. I cant lift it and it needs disasembled and carried out up stairs . Bitch! Its huge and I think dad put it down there before he built the house . Anyway if it was out side in a storage building or garage with ducts ran in side , it would blow you out. They are doing that now in the farm mags. Back up a pick up to it and throw off a load of wood and load it out side. I think it will take 4 feet logs! Dad got over zealous on that one ! It would probably heat a chicken house, Im serious. It will burn what ever you put in it because it has a incomming fan motor to the fire! It blows until the temp rises which isnt long with that bastid. Im serious , I cant even light it as the first start up fire of kindling will start us to opening doors. Takes about 20 -2 ft 2x4s just to start it .
If I had my rathers I would replace it with what you have comming . That stove is famous for "load it and forget it". I ran that stove in a warm morning for 10 years. Just set the thermosat and leave it . That stove doesnt need tending like the others. That automatic draft door does all of that. You will have to adjust it for the wood you have in it in my experience. Hickory is the second heaviest wood under Live Oak only. H is heavier than all the rest of hard woods. If I loaded the warm morning with hickory I left it shut all the way down. Thats some hot wood that will go the distance, or crank out BTUs which ever. On elm I would have to move it up to half way on draft. So it depends. You wil learn all that. It will also burn anything you put in it because of the draft feature. You could put green wood in it wet if you had no choice and set the draft all the way open and it will burn it . I know the reaons.
It has the design I was talking about except the smoke chamber. You can open the bottom ash door and really blast a load to fire. But dont leave it , not even for a minute or you will forget. Burn the house down. You can remove ash while never letting the stove go out . Just use the long hook to work the ash through the grates. Its a serious stove for a serious wood burner you have ordered. The compartment is narrow at 11 inches wide because it will burn logs that big! The stove is tall and the load is in the height as I was talking about . So while the bottom is buring and giveing you heat , its drying the load above it . When you throw on a low or two , its always directly over the heat. Thats why its a kick butt stove. Its impossible to put a cold log beside the fire and it go out. The stove works with out a fan as a whole house furnace. I mentioned putting it in the basement . That is because to draws all the cold air from all the rooms underneath it in a natural draw. Its uncomfortable laying in the floor in front of one becuse you can fell a draft of all that cold air. It puts out hot air out the top and foreces it to the back bedrooms.Thats a whole nother system that the radient stove you have been using that burns the one room you are in. The back rooms will be with in 10 degrees of the room its in when you get it installed. If you turn on the fan it changes every thing . Then it recycles the room air its in and that room heats up. I like the stove a lot because its quiet and you can load it and forget it . A friend of mine heated a whole up stairs with his just from the draft system the stove uses. If he had installed a radient stove the heat would have been lost in the basement. They are great basement stoves for heating the whole house above.
Tim
The small stove I want for the cabin is all .
Thanks for the offer but the barrel wont work for her . Shes got that cabin fixed up more like a cottage . Its a doll house and needs a "cute " stove. LOL
Tim
I have a feeling she will fall in love with the little Jotul. Shes not here this weekend or the decision would be made I think. My money is on the little stove even if its 600 and change.
Edited 10/9/2005 12:49 am ET by Mooney
Keep her happy...trust me. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Mooney, I've got two Acclaims. One in the house, it's the first one we bought, and one in the shop. The top loading feature makes this a great stove. I'd hate to ever have a side or front loader again. Top loading, top loading, top loading..., repeat after me, top loading, top loading, top loading...Lee
(Vermont Castings Resolute- Original 1979 design)
So lets hear it about vermont castings.
The Vermont castings stoves were the first of the higher efficiency airtight stoves (50%+) produced in the mid to late 70's. They added features such as a smoke/exhaust gas exit from the bottom right of the firebox plus an internal damper near the top exit of the stove. After the chimney and stove heat up, the internal damper is closed by the owner and the smoke/gases cannot leave by the top short route to the chimney but only by the low right side exit. Over the top of the side exit, they added inlets for heated secondary air which then combusted the unburnt smoke particles. Across the back of the stove, they added about 4-5' of extra exhaust gas channel to lengthen the smoke path and give more heat exchange area to get heat out of the exhausting gases. This extra length also allowed the exhaust gases to be in the house a bit longer to give up the heat. The first model, the Defiant, (based on the size of inefficient Franklyns) was a small furnace and drove people out of rooms.
A couple of years later they then put out the smaller Vigilant based on the same design and it was still too big for most rooms. Two years later, came the Resolute, still a bit smaller. Finally by about 1981-2, they put out the still smaller Intrepid, about 1/3 the size of the original Defiant.
Since the original design and smoke path innovations, they re-designed the interior (exterior pretty much like the originals) so they could easily make the EPA requirements (at least 63% and clean burning). I'd like to have one of the new ones but can't yet justify the cost for an extra 6-10% efficiency. I usually get all the wood I need for under $150-$200 per year (2-3 cords). Maybe when I'm older and have to buy all my wood split from a dealer and am not able to scrounge any.
I see a lot of box stoves in the Vogel.... ads and only 2 EPA certified units. I thought it was illegal to sell any stove that was not EPA certified. How are they getting around this federal regulation....saying they are cottage or shed stoves?
Without bringing up any of the technical aspects of wood stoves, it seems curious that there has not been one comment on the fact that wood stoves are a major cause of a stench that invades many neighborhoods day and night. Some may consider it a perfume of nature but in fact, smoke belching wood stoves are in the same catagory as smoking, oil burning worn out vehicles which are seldom tolerated. Polution considerations aside, IMHO, it is plain rude and bad mannered to stink up your friends and neighbors olefactory environment.I like your approach....now lets see your departure
read a little closer g, there has been mention of the cleaner burning (or added catalytics) that are available to protect our environment. Admittedly, not many of the previous stoves fall in that category.
You don't have a dog, do you?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
After stove design, its all in how you burn them. With my masonry heater, I could burn wood all day and my neighbors would never know it. Keep those fires hot!
BTW I have a Jotul #3 in great shape--beautiful--anyone know how much I should advertise it for in the paper?
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
No, but I recently spoke with someone advertising her decade old one for $600. Don't remember now if it was pre-EPA or catalyzed. Either way, I didn't want it. Apparently wasn't getting many calls.
Been following this thread as I've been looking for a used stove to replace ours. We burn little wood but it'd be nice to have something cleaner and preferably better looking.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
The Jotul I have is very pretty, enamel cast iron, curves, ogees and dentil molding, glass, etc. Tastefully done. But the wood has to be cut rather small - 18" or so.
If you are looking to heat seriously, I think a larger stove would be in order.
Of course I will try and sell people on masonry heaters every chance I get - we loved ours and will be building one in this house. As for wood size, you could put the entire Jotul stove inside the firebox!
Do you have a source of makeup air for your stove? I was digging a channel for 4" sewer pipe from the windward side of my house, under the (future) slab and then up in front of the future heater today. I hope it is worth it.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
and will be building one in this house.
By 'building one' do you plan on starting from scratch and going ground up, or installing a unit?
We all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper. - Albert Einstein
In my travels looking for a stove I found a book on making your own stove. Be a good read for you and junkhoud. Would he call buying the book cheating ?
Tim
From scratch. Although I'm not a mason, I built one in the last house - I had the opportunity to help an experienced builder build one, and then I was going to buy a kit, but I came across an old FHB article and adapted the design to my house.
The plans are in "Masonry - the best of Fine Homebuilding" published in 1997.
Basically firebrick and home-cast refractory panels, which I covered in a stone veneer.
edit: I've tried a few times to copy a picture in - no luck
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!<!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!----><!---->
Edited 10/11/2005 8:44 am ET by Brian
Edited 10/11/2005 8:53 am ET by Brian
I have the masonry best of book and a number of other plans. Are you happy with the end result of your heater?
home-cast refractory panels
Any chance on you expanding a bit on that?
be picking yer brain
Tim- Check to see if junkhound co-authored that book:o)
We all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper. - Albert Einstein
Edited 10/11/2005 1:27 pm ET by rez
I bought refractory cement at the place that makes fire brick and mixed. The panels are the same width and thickness as a firebrick, but are 36" deep. I cast them 5 at a time in a horizontal form I made. The next time I will make forms that are vertical, with 1/4 melamine between so I can cast them all at once.
If you look at the under construction picture, the gray bricks aren't bricks at all, but 36" long slabs. Follow the smoke path right to left a few times around the slabs and you'll see how we store so much heat.
I "dipped" the bricks in thinnned sairset mortar and stacked (next time I'll do a neater job) The cardboard was to give a break between the stone and heater since we heat to such high temps in the firebox. We did develop one hairline crack anyway.
6,000 lbs of chimney, 8,000 lbs of heater - 1 fire heats for a whole day, and the kids can play around it without fear of burns, and the fire is out before bedtime, yet still warm in the morning.
All that work and I sold the house to some people who will probably use it casually or never.Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
I've got to get on the stick and begin building one.
Have most of the materials but always hate going in on something firsttime as the unexperienced.
Thanks for posting that.
We all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper. - Albert Einstein
Brian,I'd like to see those pics. But they are tiny little pics. I can barely see the subject. NO details. Can hardly even tell there are bricks.And the file size makes me wonder why.You need to make the screen size about three times that size, and the file size needs to stay the same, or less.And too bad yer up in Maine. I would have told you to advertize that Jotul in my email for 50 dollars. he he he
2nd try on the pics...
and a closeup of the doors I made - the mountains are the Grand Teton, Mt Owen & Teewinot - now maybe someday I'll get to climb them...
Edit: right click the link and then click "open in new window" to see the pics - I'm new to irfanview
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Edited 10/12/2005 7:51 am ET by Brian
Resize/Resample, click "half" twice. Very nice work.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 10/12/2005 8:45 am ET by VaTom
Brian,Much more betterer !!It's good to dink around with the settings until you can get a good clear pic in a good size.The most preferred size is 640 by 480 and roughly 50k in file size.I personally prefer 800 by 600 or even better yet 1024 by 768. And I don't quibble too much about file sizes up to 100k, unless there are several of them. (I am on dialup.)Thank you for going to the trouble you did with these.=0)Here are your pics resized yet again.
The fellow that started Lee Valley tools started out selling iron stove kits through mail order!!An ex-boat builder treading water!
If you are looking to heat seriously, I think a larger stove would be in order.
That was the reason the Jotul was for sale, owner bought a larger house. Our place is unconventional. In fact, it never gets colder than 65º in the house (usually around February), so if we'd settle for the target temp used for degree-days, we need no supplemental heat at all. PAHS passively supplies everything needed.
But when we're sitting around evenings we prefer a few degrees warmer, therefore a smallish wood stove works fine. Originally I figured to build a masonry heater, even got a Finnish plan book for a variety of styles. Then I realized with our erratic heating needs, it made no sense. House is currently coasting at 72-73º. We don't generally bother with the stove until Thanksgiving or so. Burn upwards of 1 cord annually for our 20,000 cu ft. Last yr, more like 2/3. If we bothered with window coverings, it would be much less.
This is also why I've not bothered with outside air for the stove. We run our air system slightly pressurized and don't worry about using warm air for the stove. When heating needs are tiny, we can be inefficient very comfortably.
However, if your Jotul is EPA and uncatalyzed, we could talk. Especially if you'd like a house tour. <G> You could even return home with the monster wood-fired boiler I've been trying to foist off on everybody here. Takes 4' logs! The boiler guy pointed out that the fire would die before we needed any more heat. It was for the next place, with the indoor pool to heat. Even had fuel oil backup, at one time. Ummm, you don't want it in the bed of an F150, or 250 for that matter.
You figure the air will be warmed enough by it's travels through your pipe to make the stove run better? Sounds suspect to me, but I don't know how stoves act with really cold air coming in. Nor do I know how difficult your installation is. I guess not everybody has a backhoe. <G>
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom - we have a little in common, building wise - I'd like to see your heat exchanger. How far from Hagerstown, MD?
The Jotul is not that old, but I'll have to check on the EPA - its probably OK, I simply don't know. It definitely burns logs copmpletely.
Since I am building ICF and small, you have me thinking a masonry heater may be overkill for this place...but I like the looks of the thing too.
backhoe... I am digging inside my house... and I didn't think of warming the air. I wonder how much positive pressure I'd need on the heat exchanger to be OK. My main thought was not using conditioned air to save energy...
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
How far from Hagerstown, MD?
Hi Brian. We're just S. of Charlottesville. 3-4 hrs IIRC from Hagerstown.
My understanding is that there's a brass plate on EPA stoves identifying them as such. As for if you have enough heat loss to justify a masonry stove, you could do a heat loss calculation to determine that. For us, the time lag to heat the masonry would make one nonfunctional here. As much as I admire the concept, it's based on continual heat need. Fire it in the fall and keep it warm until spring. Which is not the way we live.
Seems I misunderstood. Thought you were planning on earth contact to warm your incoming air. If that's really the most direct route for outside air to your stove, wow. I placed our stove on an outside wall, near a door. Simple wood delivery, ash removal, and exhaust piping. Ceiling slope makes for very efficient convection current. Pretty sure your house is considerably more complicated than what we live in. I'm very much KISS. Using unconditioned air is a given for greater efficiency, far as I know. We just don't bother, as I previously explained.
Client I'm creating a house site for asked this evening if I knew anyone interested in the firewood created. Kind of a long haul for you. Farther even than I'm interested in. Nice oak and hickory. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom- Charlottesville is a haul, esp. w/gas prices and the guzzlers I drive.
My heater will be in the very center of the basement, so I ran some 4" pvc under the footers and slab to the center. I guess outside I'll make some attractive disguise for the intake.
Heat loss calcs on the house will probably tell me I could heat it with a few candles, but I love masonry heaters - this one will have a bakeoven.
Now that I finally own some land, I have plenty of wood, thanks!
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
This is what the EPA certification is all about...get higher efficiency (good for the homeowner) through betterdesign and cleaner burning (good for the neighbourhood).
While I was doing some research to have wood stoves regulated by our provincial gov't in Nove Scotia, I found some interesting regulations in the US where there's an outward appearance that there isn't that much regulation in relation to other countries including Canada. Man! was I surprised!!
In one town in Washington or Oregon, they actually had "smoke" cops with "opacity" meters that could determine smoke density. You could be cited and fined for too dirty smoke. In another, you could keep your old wood stove until you moved. Then you couldn't take it with you and...the new homeowner had to install an EPA stove if he wished to burn wood. In Vermont, if you wanted to have an outdoor boiler, you may have to construct a chimney up to 30-40 feet high to disperse smoke far away from neighbours homes.
Clean burning technology is available!!!! Efforts are being made. We need gov'ts with some OO's to regulate plus educate. In many area's, wood is a local (jobs at home), renewable resource (great) that's produced by free energy (the sun). What more could you want???
Where in Novy are you? I'm outside Sydney.
Mooney:
Anoher brand to consisder...we have a Pacific (Vista model; this is a fairly small, non-cat stove.....glass door, pedestal, black trim)....new last year. We're very happy with it...heats our smallish house, and it's a pleasure to use. 63% efficient, Canadian made. Can't remember what we paid, but we got it just before steel prices took a jump. Cheaper than Vermont Castings etc., but frankly not as pretty. Just a good, basic stove.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Hi Adrian:
I'm in Boutilier's Point (St. Margaret's Bay) out side of Halifax. I used to sit on the Program Advisory Committee (PAC) for carpentry in the Community Colleges and do a bit of lecturing in the classes on building science, energy efficiency and indoor air qualty on invitation by individual campus instructors. The gent I dealt mostly with was Dan Surrette from the Yarmouth Campus.
Was brought into Nova Scotia to write and administer the energy regulations for the province. Have my own Home Inspection, consulting, training business up and running here again. Here's the web address: http://www.ahi-ns.ca
Hi Brian;
Good to meet you. I'm more on the woodworking side rather than carpentry, but I met Danny last week at a meeting....also spent a couple of days working in a group with his brother Greg, also a carpentry instructor.
There are a couple of other guys on this forum from your neighborhood....Ron Budgell, and Richard Fraser (Novy 7), although he may have moved somewhere else in HRM, I've lost track.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
this one does
MODEL BX42E
“DELUXE BOXWOOD" STOVE
The Deluxe Boxwood wood stove is all cast iron and features front door with spring handle and latch. Its two gasketed cooking lids facilitate fry pan or tea kettle.
This Deluxe Boxwood stove will accept logs up to 27” in length. Slide-out ash plate makes cleaning easy and acts as draft control.
This high performance wood stove is an exceptional value. Wood stove is fully assembled except for the legs.
SPECIFICATIONS
Length...............................37”
Height (Overall)...................29”
Width.................................25”
Firebox Depth..................31.5”
Flue Size (Round).................6”
Door Opening............12”x10.5”
Material...........100% Cast Iron
Fuel..............................Wood
BTU Rating.................106,000
Weight.........................175 lbs
BX26E
Wood stove
BX42E
Wood stove
FS260E
Wood stove
HH005
Wood and Coal
P205E
Wood stove
PB65XL
Wood and Coal
View ImageSR57E
Wood and Coal
View ImageTR001View Image
EPA CERTIFIED
Wood stove
View ImageTR003View Image
EPA CERTIFIED
Wood stove
View ImageVG450ELG
Wood stove
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Wood stove
VG810CL
Coal Stove
VG820E
Wood stove
View ImageBarrel
Stove Kits and Drums
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Pretty some buck right here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
choose from. Find out more ...
View Image
Speaking of Buck, they have some here and several others . This is the shop I called this morning . They ahve a bunch of stoves.
http://www.midwestpool-spa.com/a_stoves.html
See the vg820e? That is what is being shipped..to replace the barrel just to it's right. The barrel is GREAT..gasketed doors and and all that..the castings were a bit ruff and I re aligned the doors, with judicious care, and regasketed them..We still froze.
Now, partly cuz the house wasn't snugged up tite, and partly cuz the barrel job is not meant to be a real heater..and I couldnt afford anything else at the time.
I ordered from Northern Tool on Sept 8, said the shipping was 4-6 DAYS...well on day 14..I ragged at them, and was told it was closer to 14 days..STILL no call about the carrier! I have removed the barrel, but may need to rehook it if they don't get it here pretty soon.
Good for ya getting that wood so cheap...reminds me when I had a trailer as a teenager..I worked at a sawmill, and bought a raft or lift of ties B4 the creosote dip tank...all 8x8x10' whiteoak..got it real cheap..lopped it all to 16 or so long and stacked it up..a virtuall wall of wood..I hated to burn it all in a Franklin stove, but man, we was WARM. Even a Franklin can get an all night burn with that stuff. I only cracked it once or twice, and welded it shut..Who says ya can't weld CI?
I just got my LAST door installed about an hour ago, one more window and a big ol can o' foam, will have us snug as a bug I hope....Thursday was 90 or so, today 55..I am cutting it close..but when I hung the door ( coincidentally, right where the woodstove will be behind, I was waiting for delivery), I emptied the Fomo Foam can..so a new one is one the way...man..it's getting close. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Wood stove burns up to 5 hours on one load of fuel and generates up to 150,000 BTU/hour. Convenient ash door and large ash tray for easy clean-out and disposal. "Safety" handle prevents unwanted opening by children. Uses common 6" black stove pipe for standardized chimney installation"
See thats factual imformation on your stove . At 15000 btu it will birn 5 hrs.
It wont put that heat out the full time but t did t say that.
I had the same thing in a Warm Morning for 10 years. Same thing as a wood furnace . It wil last 12 hours on low , but doesnt put out much doin it.
Good decision for 2400 sg ft.
Tim
I did my homework....exhaustivly. The DW is home all day so burn time is not so much of an issue. I also got the blower, so I can maybe duct and direct some of them BTUS to where convectio wont get it there...odd layout here.
Definatly not a PRETTY heater I wanted a JUCO double glass fireplace, but they seemed to have vanished) for that spot, and maybe will make my own when things get more finished..I can probly weld up a decent stove in a weekend. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Tim, I was at the wood stove store today. Had to pick up some parts for Vermont Castings Intrepid II catalytic converter baby. It's a real nice stove, and if I turn up the burn, cleans the glass. Also has a screen for that romantic open door fireplace ambiance<G> Someone gave me the Intrepid, or I'd be using the Fisher Grandpa Bear I've had for thirty years (sorry Sphere<G>) Puts out the heat, but it's a wood gobbler, and huge...like a Jabba the Hearth, LOLBefore the Fisher, I used an Ashley Automatic. Cost $65 in '72, held a fire all night, took huge logs, but burnt Ms 'Snort's butt (never bend over next to a wood stove, unless you're facing it!)....it'll be going in my next shop<G>Anyway, Ashley makes some raised units like you're interested in. And then there's a the soapstone covered free standing deals I saw today, they hold the heat and look sharp doing it.Hey, you said you wanted to talk<G>PS. You might wanna ask cal about his Tuli Kiva<sp?>, now that's a sweet woodburner "what's in a name?" d'oh!
heheheh...i was gonna repost a pic of that monster,,,gimmea few weeks and a trip to Sylva NC....I can show ya one even uglier ( stove that is)...I have a friend that wants me haul it away from her house...about 4' tall, 20x20 sq..bottom feeder..made by a guy in OLEY PA, a neat stove....she has two of them.
Hell at this rate, I might need it. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
now that's a sweet woodburner
It is Holly. Masonry Heaters are the way to go if you have the space and ambition or the $ to build them. A tour through the Masonry Heaters Assoc. website ( http://mha-net.org/ ) will give you a boatload of information. I'm lucky to have one of their members as a close friend (and the builder of our Tulikivi)........(along with our house foundation). Here's another Tom built. View Image
The organization is like a Guild where the members are constantly studying ways to improve their craft. It's common place for them to travel the country and world to continue their education. Our friend spent several weeks in Finland and the Czech Republic this past summer teaching and learning.
Our heater is our primary heat in the fall /early winter/late winter/early spring. We have radiant in the concrete floor, so are reluctant to put the boiler to it unless there is prolonged cold. Too much fuel to bring the slab up to temp, just to have it shut down and repeat the process when there is a call for heat. If the outdoor temp is in the hi 30's to low 50's, just the passive solar orientation is enough to be comfortable on sunny days.
Joyce likes it toasty,......... me.........I can take a bit more cool. So to take the chill off or in the case of the often cloudy day or leaves still on the trees like now, we will use the Tulikivi if it gets down in the 30's. The heater could and has heated the house as the single heat source. Where normal use we fire it in the evenings, as the single source it would require two firings, once in the morning and an additional firing at nite. Each fire uses one log bag, about 18-20 lbs of wood. I load the heater with stacked "large" splits (forearm size x 16''), the days trim scraps and a couple sections of newspaper wadded up. Lit from the top, the paper preheats the flue........starts the kindling and that starts the splits. Soon the fire is roaring reaching........memory lapse-15-1800 F, burning all the harmful gasses, soot etc so there's no smoke out the chimney. The only smoke you see is at start-up with the paper and first bit of kindling.
Burn the fire maybe an hour/hour and a half or so at that high heat and the soapstone picks up the BTU's. During burn, you'll get instant heat off the cast door, but the stone takes a while to get warm. Soapstone will radiate good heat for about 12 hours, moderate for 24. In mid winter, we'll lite it each evening. Super cold or on the weekends, two firings.
I've heated with wood since the 70's with all sorts of contraptions. Still have the Fisher out in the garage. Masonry Heat is the way to go for comfort and economical burning of fuel with the biggest heat return.
that's it, sorry for the diversion Mooney.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 10/9/2005 10:15 am ET by calvin
Edited 10/9/2005 10:21 am ET by calvin
http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/forestry/g881.htm
Here's your BTU numbers. Scroll down to the table at the bottom. Ye ole osage orage/hedge wins again!
I'd copy it into the thread, but it would move our right margin way the heck out.
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain
Just some user observations.
osage orange. Great heat, horrible gathering. Thorns like hypo needles. Damn stuff is dangerous
Black locust, easy to split.
cottonwood, imposible to split and bogus.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
osage orange. Great heat, horrible gathering. Thorns like hypo needles. Damn stuff is dangerous
Black locust, easy to split.
uuummmm... doesn't black locust have like wicked 3" thorns on it too?
I've heard stories about folks warping their woodstoves by loading them up with hedge. Burned too hot for the stove.
cottonwood, imposible to split and bogus.
Yeah, you could probably get longer burn times out of rolled newspaper.
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain
Edited 10/11/2005 9:18 am ET by JohnT8
doesn't black locust have like wicked 3" thorns on it too?
you are thinking of 'Honey Locust' - black locust can have varying amounts of rose bush sized thorns on juvenile wood, but not the nests of needles you are thinking of -
"there's enough for everyone"
"I've heard stories about folks warping their woodstoves by loading them up with hedge."
Did you know that calling them "hedge" trees is a fairly local thing? I used that term here on BT once before, and no one knew what I was talking about.
I had to do a google search to find out that they were really osage orange trees. I'd just always called them hedge trees before that...
Ever build a fence with hedge posts?
On The Journey Of Life I Chose The Psycho Path
Ever build a fence with hedge posts?
osage orange planted as a 'hedge' is capable of containing stock - too mean/tough to get thru - I think this the etymology of the name, but it's just a guess -
"there's enough for everyone"
"osage orange planted as a 'hedge' is capable of containing stock"
That's not what I meant.
We used to cut down hedge trees and cut posts out of the trunks and/or branches. And we'd use those pieces for fence posts for barbed wire fences.
I can't imagine anyone DELIBERATELY planting the stuff. It's like a weed around here.
I'm not crazy. I've just been in a REALLY bad mood for 30 years
We used to cut down hedge trees and cut posts out of the trunks and/or branches. And we'd use those pieces for fence posts for barbed wire fences.
ya, if you can find something resembling straight pieces, it is durable -
but I was addressing the reason it is called 'hedge' (which it is around here also- or 'hedge apple' - much less of a chance anyone will know what you're talking about if you say 'osage orange') -
I can't imagine anyone DELIBERATELY planting the stuff. It's like a weed around here.
well, multi-flora rose was introduced by the USDA as a living fence - and it works - but the side effects are worse than having to maintain fences...
"there's enough for everyone"
"...if you can find something resembling straight pieces, it is durable..."
Once you cut them, you just turn them around until the straightest side is parallel with the fence line.
Dad used to drag the whole family out to build fence. A couple of people on post hole diggers, him cutting wood, and the rest of us moving brush and/or whatever else needed done. I never cared much for it.
Power Tools Make the Man
Hedge/osage-orange/bodark/bowwood/maclura-pomifera can be used for lots of things.
Some of those old hedge fence posts are over 100 years old. The tree is disease resistant. The 'apples' are supposed to be disliked by many types of insects. The wood has the highest heat output when burned of any wood I know of in North America. The wood makes an excellent archery bow, also makes an interesting woodworking wood (if you can get it in lumber form).
David was alluding to the popular phrase attributed to hedge: "horse high, bull strong, and hog tight". Meaning too tall for a horse to jump, to strong for a bull to push his way through, and thick enough that a hog couldn't work his way through.
I've got some 18" trees in pots from 3 different locations that I've been trying to find a place to plant. I suppose you aren't volunteering a place to plant the hedge nursery?
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain
OK, lets try that second pic again.
View Image
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain
Edited 10/11/2005 4:32 pm by JohnT8
"The wood has the highest heat output when burned of any wood I know of in North America."
No doubt, it holds a great fire. But the sparks popping off of it always annoyed me.
I Stay Young By Complaining Constantly
Got a few large trees out across the road here and every year I watch people stopping their cars and picking up the green baseball sized fruit.
We use to call them monkey balls as we put them in a line and hid in the woods watching the cars splat them when they went by.
Now i find out folks are selling them at fleamarkets for a buck apiece.
be an entrepreneur
We all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper. - Albert Einstein
Rez
I hadn't heard the term Monkey Balls since I was a kid. The Osage Orange in PA was a busy. Down here in Texas it's a tree. The park just down the road has a ton of them. I always know when it's getting to be fall as the horse apples start falling....:>)
Ahh, Horse Apples Im familar with !!!! LOL.
Tim
"I've heard stories about folks warping their woodstoves by loading them up with hedge."I warped the back of a Fisher Grand Pa Bear with white oak and hickry. Sucker's built like a battleship, bet I could've melted it with osage orange<G> It was cold! but dang if the house didn't stay warm <G>Hey, I've finally got my stove pipe in on the Intrepid, usta see how long we could go before a fire...bragging rights...good thing there's no one left to brag to, ha, ha, ha
"what's in a name?" d'oh!
Well John, after 3 days w/o sun and highs about 58 and no baking going on, I'm going behind the garage, grab a drywall bucket of scrap and a couple locust splits and commence firing. I usually have gone up on the roof by now to sweep the leaves out of the valley and taken a lite ladder up there to look down the chimney. But tonight I think I'll risk it. The thermo inside says 66 and I know the wife will be happier with a bit warmer. I really hate to do this, last year I don't think I started a burn till november. Early start means early wood usage and I haven't stashed a good bit yet. You've been here, most of it is in the ravine next door or behind the house............both a little too downhill to get me excited. But I do have an eye on some maybe a hundred feet from the stacking area. It'll warm me up good cutting and tossing that over the fence. Best wait on that, but not too long or the snow will make it stink'in slick.
It takes a bit to bring this heater up to temp, good when you can run fires everyday. That way it never gets cool again, less wood to bring it up. But Joyce will like it and so it goes.
Hope all has been well with you.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
going behind the garage, grab a drywall bucket of scrap and a couple locust splits and commence firing. I usually have gone up on the roof by now to sweep the leaves out of the valley and taken a lite ladder up there to look down the chimney.
With all that surrounding foliage, I'm surprised you aren't sweeping leaves all winter long. Maybe we should develop a leaf press that turns fallen leaves into fireplace/woodstove logs :) Make an 'at home' version and we'd sell MILLIONS of them! I can see the infomercials already, "turn those piles of leaves into winter heat."
Was that masonry heater pic you posted yours, or a friends? If not yours, how about a pic of yours. When I was over there, I didn't wander in to the house far enough to realize you had one. Those are pretty neat systems. Fire that thing up and all the women and cats in the house will be happy ;)
Early start means early wood usage and I haven't stashed a good bit yet. You've been here, most of it is in the ravine next door or behind the house............both a little too downhill to get me excited.
Hmm, you might be able to get a garden cart in there (one of those 2-bicycle-wheeled square carts). We've still got the 1970's Garden Way cart over at Mom's house. It has hauled MANY a load of firewood. But I still wouldn't look forward to pushing/pulling it up the hill to the house. I thought that's what kids were for?
But I do have an eye on some maybe a hundred feet from the stacking area. It'll warm me up good cutting and tossing that over the fence. Best wait on that, but not too long or the snow will make it stink'in slick.
The friend with the soapstone has some favorite saying about firewood warming you THREE times: once when you cut it, once when you split it, and once when you burn it (or something along those lines).
If your firebox is big enough, that will save you some split time. And nothing wrong with FREE heat! (we won't factor in the sweat equity on it)
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Edited 10/12/2005 10:14 am by JohnT8
Calvin, I am with the Tatemaster here.Get a garden cart. Also get a cheapo winch from Harbor freight. No need for anything tougher than that. It's a lot easier winching a garden cart full of firewood up the hill, than carrying it up a load at a time.I still don't understand why you call that thing a hill...;o)
Did he have a four wheeler or a riding lawn tractor? A cart behind one of those makes simple work once a little road is cleared for the lawn tractor.
Tim
ATV might make it, but a little lawn tractor would not. I visualize the little lawn tractor sitting there with its wheels spinning in the mud.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Good excuse for getting an atv if he doesn't have one.LOL
Good excuse for getting an atv if he doesn't have one.
That's what I was thinking initially, but figured he might run into the female logic of: "you just have to get it up one little hill. You don't need a $5k ATV just to haul wood up a little hill."
Women just don't understand.
:)
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
You guys are too easy to spend money on something that ruins the idea of "gathering wood". If it's too hard to get, you leave it lay. You've seen my grass, rather embarrasing to cut with a rider, no?
And which one of you ambitious genius's didn't think the obvious, roll it down hill. No exertion, gas or noise. Drive the van down the lane and along the hill bottom and fill it up.
Believe me, I'll take it easy. I'm not a stranger to work, but this is the 0's (zero's.).Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
You don't want to buy a tool for the job ?Oh the shame of it.
You don't want to buy a tool for the job ?
Oh the shame of it.
Im sitting here thinkin missed opportunity! Daddum dude!
Tim
You don't want to buy a tool for the job ?
Oh the shame of it.
Can you believe that? Perfect opportunity to buy a new toy...um, I mean tool, and he's throwing it away.jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
I found a bargin .
Price of stove is 5500.00
A couple comments I didn't see.
Catalytic stoves can burn longer while still creating a clean burn. Non-cats require some air flow to stay hot and clean, so you can't damp them down to burn as long. This can be bad if you overstoke the fire, as it can get pretty hot for a while.
I have a fan that mounts heat shielding in the back of the stove. It makes a tremendous difference in how quickly I get heat out.
OK, I haven't read all 80 posts, but here's one:
A friend bought one of these soapstone woodstoves 4 or 5 years back. He thinks it is superior to the average steel/iron units most companies sell. Kinda pricey though.
http://www.woodstove.com/
Woodstock Soapstone Company, Inc.
66 Airpark Road, West Lebanon NH 03784
Toll Free 1-800-866-4344
America's Finest Wood Stoves and Gas Stoves.
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jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain