I am hoping to do some renovations to my house this Summer to help me eliminate my oil company partner from my next winter heating needs.
I have always been interested in Masonry heaters, recent article in Home Power magazine talks about using one to back up a radiant in the floor heating loop system. Anyone try this before? Any suggestions as to best place to buy a Masonry heater system for on site installation by competent masonry contractor?
Thanks
Replies
Willy, have you perused this SITE?
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Sphere's too chicken to try and do his.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
Hell, I did bizness with my college roomate turned mason.
Besides, didn't want to use the locals-they have a hard time squaring up on flat ground. Least he was from the mts of N.C.
I'm sure there's a member of that assoc. in or around that spot in Kentuck.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I heard that.
And agree..too chicken. I could easily screw up a bunch of nice rocks faster than you can say "Masonary".Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
dang, I can't believe it.
There is something Sphere actually fears.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
FHB did an article years ago on this stove.
If you can access them online it would be in issue 19,21 or 22 ( I know because I loaned my issue out and it never came back home and those are the only issues I am missing).
There is a ton of information on these stoves in various styles on the net. Many include step by step instructions for simple stoves.
We've had a number of discussions on this topic here. "russian stove" "masonry stove" and "finnish stove" are some more search terms you might try.
I went to a jobsite a few weeks back where a mason was building two of these masonry heaters - he said he often builds them from scratch, but both of these were from kits.
What's my point? you can buy kits. Just in case you didn't know it was an option.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Which edition of FHB did have the article on these stoves back in the early days?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Issue 71
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/building-a-tiled-masonry-heater.aspx?LangType=1033&ac=fpJustin Fink - FHB Editorial
Thanks Justin, I thought the article I read was in one of the older magazines. The unit wasn't tiled , all brick for construction. Age is getting to me.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks for all the input. I probably have the back issue of FHB that is being mentioned.
Any ideas on which kits are the best????
Repeat after me- Soapstone
Thats right one more time-
Soapstone
Edited 3/4/2008 4:47 pm ET by Henley
That old article was written by my friend Jonathan von Ranson who was one of the first masonry heater/cookstove builders in New England.
It would be a pretty expensive back-up heater, though, and has more than enough thermal (radiant) mass to forego the radiant floor.
None of the kits I've seen are near as good as one properly custom built by a qualified mason.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
one aspect to consider with masonry heaters is their mass. They are not wood stoves and don't run the same. Slow to heat and slow to cool.
Also used to their best advantage- you light them, fill them with heat and leave them alone.
Not so good for cuddling up in front of the fire.
Their best use is really to put them in the basement and fire them once a day (not that romantic).
Their best use is really to put them in the basement and fire them once a day
I've never seen - or even heard of one - installed in a basement. They cost a lot, can look beautiful, and offer radiant heat if they're in the living space (doesn't do you much good in the basement).
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
They are commonly used to heat shops or other large spaces that
would otherwise be considered not living spaces.
As I'm sure you could guess having a large heat sink in the basement sheds heat into the heart of the building through out it's heat cycle.
I agree they are beautiful and efficient but their lag time has led to complaints from people in search of a fireplace like atmosphere.
I've built a couple and used one regularly, but that is really the extent of my knowledge. One other point I'd like to make is they tend to burn at a very high temp. thus are very clean.
they are beautiful and efficient but their lag time has led to complaints from people in search of a fireplace like atmosphere.
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Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Nice photos. I am a bit confused however. My years ago research into the "Russian" stoves indicated that the fuel was not logs but rather small twigs or faggots bundled together to provide for a very fast and hot burn. Wood from coppicing small fast growing trees and shrubs being the preferred fuel. What is shown looks like "stove wood" burners, is it that these are an "Americanized" version of the originals altered to provide the view of th efire and with larger fireboxes to accept the larger fuel?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
What DOESN'T get Americanized when it hits the US mass market?
The masonry stove is adaptable to a wide variety of applications: fireplace, heater, cookstove, bread oven, water heating, bench heating.
The same options are possible without the extra mass and flue length as well. The first Larsen Truss superinsulated house I built was designed to be heated with the smallest Yotul box stove using sticks small enough to cut with a bow saw (4/5 cord/year). The themal mass was in the house instead of in the stove.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/5/2008 1:54 pm ET by Riversong
Do you know of a source for the doors and if there is a steel fire box or just fire brick.?
I may have missed a link or something, but at the website Calvin posted I don't recall seeing the Parts..and no, there are no member masons in Ky. That much I did gain from the site.
Thanks in advance.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Might check any local masonry supply house for the doors. Same door that you use on a barrel stove works as well IIRC. In the early 70's many big masonry suppliers were promoting these stoves . Inside is all firebrick or refractory material. No metal except for the door lintel and the "blast gate" or damper.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I went through 4 barrel stove kits ( Vogelzang) before I got one that was not so warped or misdrilled that I could make one work for my barrels. Bad cast iron from Chiner.
I had a SOTZ ( now gone) that was stamped/pressed steel, and it was the balls..but it is long gone too..
I kinda like the glass doors, for the new contraption, the barrel stove is really terrible to look at, and it is far from airtite or proper draft controls.
I had thought about using a barrelstove or a Vermont castings Reliant I just got for free as a liner and doing the mas. around that..but that complicates things flue wise I think. I have 20' up to the chim. support box / roof interface , then a chase from there up 6' outside double wall pipe. 1' extends out the chase top.
Anyway, I hope to dial this thing in before next burning season.
Thanks.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Here is a source for some high-quality hardware, as well as a core kit.
http://www.mainewoodheat.com/products.html
There is a fair amount of information at this site, including pictures and links (see the "Virtual Mall")
http://mha-net.org/
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Good Link. I appreciate your posting it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
From a Finnish catalog, that includes construction drawings, lots of styles:PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, I first learned about these stoves from a German immigrant back in 1969. He was visiting us at the time and was quite surprised to see the downed branches, and dead wood in our forest.
Even a bigger surprise to him was the size of our firewood.
He told me then that in his house in Germany they heated with one of these stoves and explained that they had been designed to use small branches, twigs and naturally occurring or coppiced, or pruned wood as the fuel. A fast growing , brushy tree or shrub that put out new growth every year was the ideal fuel as it kept the larger , slower growing trees for other purposes. Nothing bigger than about 3".
The reason is that the small fuel bundled together gives an extremely fast hot burn, after it starts burning well it is damped down and right after the fire dies down the actual chimney is almost completely shut off from the hear exchanger part of the stove thereby retaining the heat. That is what makes them so fuel efficient (in the sense they don't use fuel that otherwise can be put to another purpose) in the long run nor do they require the long burn times it takes to completely burn the "stove wood". They do not require nor were designed for viewing or use of "stove wood", rather they are a stove designed to use otherwise waste wood too small to be burned in more conventional stoves other than as kindling. Using them for baking etc. has nothing at all to do with the fuel used. I am sure that with locally abundant fuel it doesn't matter much , but when they were designed originally in Scandinavia they were designed because of fuel shortages and this stove design made the most of what other wise was an under utilized or wasted source of fuel. Today a version of this same principal is in play with the "Rocket Stove" that is being promoted in Africa, Asia and other parts of the world as cooking stoves in an effort to preserve timber stands and mature trees from being cut for firewood.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
That's pretty much what my Finnish friend told me about use there. Not that she had much experience with woodburning here. Central Arizona desert was where I knew her, 1969. Got an email from her just this week.
Thought I'd build one here, why she sent the plans, then realized we lived inside one. Just needed to add the hot fire occasionally. In our case, infrequently.
As Calvin notes, a great way to heat a normal house. Excellent combustion, minimal maintenance.
The guy who cuts the most wood here needs to clean his pipe at least twice/yr, or gets an uncontrolled burn to clean it. Starving the stove in a low-mass house creates problems. I keep telling him he really needs a better house, but that seems unlikely. One of these would make his life considerably easier.
Mentioned recent felling a dead oak for another friend's stove to an Englishman, who was shocked at the waste. This particular tree would have been fortunate to get #1 common designation. Trees, I've got.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I think the confusion comes from a different usage.
Years ago when I first built these, the method of firing was more like you describe.
You build a small hot (fast burning) fire until the mass was warm.
then let it go out and enjoy heat all day.
Somewhere along the line people started using them like fireplaces or wood stoves. They function well that way ( with the before noted lag time) but you aren't taking full advantage of the machine.
The REALLY efficient masonry heaters have a highly serpentine flue (often 7 runs before exiting into the chimney), and a chimney cap that closes from a chain or rod inside the house to seal the heat into the entire unit when the fire is down to coals.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Do they not have a difficulty generating a draft at start up? I do just by adding the second 55 gal barrel over the fire barrel, not so much a start up draft issue, but open the door for reloading and it'll smoke just enough to be a bother.Yes, the pipe damper is wide open, and yes my stack is tall enough. When I was single barrel, it'd roar like a jet and eat the pipe damper pivot rod in 2 seasons..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
No, there is a bypass to the chimney for starting the fire.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Aha..that's why I need to find a good mason. ThanksSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Yes they do start a little rough.
All that cold mass makes the initial draft difficult.
But that is from bone cold and the whole point is they hold heat like the dickens. So a daily fire poses no real problems.
I can't say for sure but it sounds like Riversong is describing a
Downdraft system.
The simplest example is where the smoke travels up to the top of the firebox and then must travel back down the back (or sides) of the fire box before exiting into the thimble.
Thanks.
And the nature of this house will more than likely still require a constant burn as we do now, I rarely have to re-light from scratch, and mostly due to a warm spell and a shutdown for a thorough ash clean out, insp. everything. I only have to swab the flue once in the fall before serious fire up.
I can't see getting far enough along ( other insulation, air sealing) before next season to expect a huge difference, but as the yrs go by, just maybe I can creep on it..we are still in glorified camping mode..its a house, not yet a "Home"..LOL
Plans keep changing, money runs out, time runs out..then I have the $$, and no time, or a scorching heatwave at the same time, then I have no $ and perfect weather, but no materials..same ol, same ol, song and dance.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Man I am a huge Masonry heater fan!
But they have a limited place in the big picture.
Wood stove with a nice hearth is usually the best bet.
Man I am a huge Masonry heater fan!
Well don't spin too fast or you'll lose your head.
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Sphere, you don't want a constant slow burn in the masonry heater. Maybe you do two, at most 3 hot firings to maintain the ''hottest" feeling to the mass. This will give you the 'constant' heat, no need to burn constantly.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I know, but this is THIS house, I figure a constant hot burn, like now..just will actually feel it all over not just right next to the stove.
Bad layout, and open to the second floor, means the north side downstairs stays freezing cold and the upstairs gets toasty..I need to have the huge chimney to block that open ness to the 2nd floor somewhat.
Saddle bag log homes are a bidtch to get even heat.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
OK, but let me put this a different way.
You want constant heat right?
That won't require constant firings.
I'm only going on our experience of 19 winters with this heater. The mass reaches a certain level of heat retention. It won't really get any hotter. As several hours goes by, the interior heated stone's temp is transfered to the outside. To the touch, the temp of the outside of the heater is the same as it was following a burn. The heat stored is not given off quickly like a stove.
After several hours more, the temp of the stone starts to cool-not fast and not a drastic drop in temperature. Gradual.
This process takes maybe 8 hours.
You fire it again, this time since the stone is not cool, you use less fuel and the heat is brought up quicker. Get if up to temp, coals go out, shut it down.
Remember, you don't want a damped down fire in these things. You want HOT.
How fast your stone mass cools is how often you need to burn.
The heat will be constant, not the burning.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
10-4.
I am ready. Stoking wheelbarrow loads is getting old. During the really cold snaps, like below 20..its more like feeding a freight train or ocean liner .
Gonna be looking for the door units and plan from that, stone, I got..the entire old mud and stone FP is stacked up in walls out front. A few tons of some fine rock. Alot dressed up nice and square and smoothe.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Those soap stone wood stoves might be a
good compromise.
Nah, I got the rocks already. Hand whittled from the last century before the last century..priceless.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Your preaching to the choir on this one.
One of my favorite systems. But like everything else-
Someone wants more
A friend has a genuine Russian fireplace. It takes a few days to heat one up so there is any ambient heat. That's too much in the fall and spring, the heat will drive you out of the house and you can't just turn it down. This can be an issue with other masses like radiant heat in a slab. They do what they are supposed to do but you don't have any quick control.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
you beat me to it!
How big is this russian heater that it takes two days to heat up?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The Russian fireplace was done by a Russian mason. He gained a bit of fame here in Maine, back in the 70's. Energy conservation was an important issue back then as today. Everything that was tried didn't work as well as it did on paper. Those were the days of electric radiant heat in the ceilings. I would only have a guess of the size, roughly 8' x 6' all the way up, faced in rock and not enclosed by walls. The fireplace is a monster of masonry, quite expensive just in the materials. The flue zig zags back and forth so most of the combustion by products get burned. I don't know what is involved in cleaning it. This was an authentic Russian fireplace. With a modern home, well insulated, the heat could be overbearing in milder temperatures. You couldn't turn it down when you wanted to, at least that was the owners complaint.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
We've used a masonry heater now for almost 20 yrs. Sized properly and used with some knowledge of it's requirements it doesn't have to be a hit and miss proposition. Admittedly you can't shut it down at will. Clean burning and frugal with fuel, these things are the ticket.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
check out http://www.tempcast.com, this is the unit we are putting in our cottage. The forum has an extentive discussion on Masonry heaters under the same title. Just to let you know, you will require a very large footing for these heaters. You will note that there are a few people that have built their units and given lots of information where to look .
I am planning on building one myself. They are extremely clean and efficient. They burn wood hotter and faster than conventientional woodstoves. The high temperature allows for almost complete combustion. They sell heat core kits for about $5-6000 but you still need to vent it outside through chimney or smokestack. You also need a solid foundation 12" reinforced concrete pad and you need to face the heat kit with a masonry product. The core heats the masonry over a few hours and the masonry radiates the heat through the house. It's best if it's placed centrally. You burn wood once, maybe twice a day. They can heat over 1200 SF if placed in an appropriate site. You can also run a water line through it to get hot water in the winter, add heated benches ect. They can get elaborate and expensive, but they are beautiful, clean, efficient, sustainable, and provide extremely comfortable heat. The place for more info is on the "Masonry Heater Assoceiation Website"
Well let's stick a link out there then...
http://mha-net.org/
Peach full,easy feelin'.