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R15 fiberglass insulation, does it exist

wallyo's picture

I can not figure this out, and am hoping for some insight. With the push to be more energy consciences why is R-15 fiber glass not on every Lumber yard-Box store shelf?

I have used it in the past and we could get into a whole argument as to other types are better ie. spray foam etc. But from a fiberglass to fiberglass standpoint isn't R-15 better then R-11 or R-13.

Is cost per square foot that much more it is not viable, and if it is cost does it come down to economics of scale alone, more 13 is made so it is cheaper? Lowes in my area a long time ago had it in stock, and for a brief time before Christmas HD had it but I did not need it when I went back the next week it was gone. I am always told "we can special order it".

Do you find it in your area? Do you use it? I find that since it is so dense it is easier to cut install etc. If any one is in the manufacturing end of it your insight is greatly appreciated.

Wallyo

(post #114761, reply #1 of 116)

I find it.


I've used it.


I usually have small--remodel--areas to do and sometimes if I want more density in 2x4 walls I'll buy R19 and pack it in, or pull off a layer.  'bout the same cost as R15 if I recall.


 

(post #114761, reply #61 of 116)

pack R-19 into a 4 inch wall and get an R value of 3?  Not sure it is R, but packing distroys insultation valve.

.

(post #114761, reply #70 of 116)

Compression does not Distroy R-value.

Typically you don't get the face value, but it is higher than what uncompressed is.

I have seen test, but off hand don't remember the exact numbers.

R-19 FG in a 4" bay would probably be around R-13.

.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
. William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

(post #114761, reply #76 of 116)

R-19 FG in a 4" bay would probably be around R-13


So the R-19 is destroyed.  If you are spliting hair, it is massively degraded.  Why pay for 19 to get 13?  I guess YOU mght like to do it if you don't think it distroys the valve or don't like money.

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Insulation compression (post #114761, reply #115 of 116)

Bill I think you are confused.  If compression doesn't destroy R-value, and gets you a higher R-value than uncompressed, why would R-19 insulation in a 2x4 wall only produce an R-13?  You do understand the principal of 'loft' pertaining to R-value,....right?

Four year old thread. (post #114761, reply #116 of 116)

Four year old thread.


Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed.  --Herman Melville

(post #114761, reply #80 of 116)

Then why is R15 denser than R13?  Both Fiberglass batts for 4" wall.


 

(post #114761, reply #82 of 116)

Waters, 15 denser than 13?  Well, is it?  If denser is better why not buy four R15 batts and cram them all in the bay to give you R60?  Well, I will tell you, you will not get 60 or 15.  Wood is denser than FG and yet it has a lower R value.  Why do you suppose that is?

.

(post #114761, reply #106 of 116)

I'm not claiming to know enough about insulating to have any kind of credibility but I've used R13 and R15.


R15 seems to me to be nothing more than more fiberglass in the same space.


If it is not, then I'd like to be educated on that point.

(post #114761, reply #107 of 116)

Waters, I don't know how they make R 15 and R 13 and both only 3 1/2 inches thick either.  Good question.  I just know that "they" say you lessen the insulating value (or valve for the bipolar tyrad parties) by compressing FG.  And really this makes sense.  FG is all about trapped air, compress it and you have less trapped air.

.

(post #114761, reply #110 of 116)

DoRight,

i'm so confused by the "friendly banter" I don't' even know what the question was?

Is it none vs R11 Vs R13?

In general, some insulation is better than none, more is better up to a point.

Insulation that preforms the best as installed is the best unless the cost is crazy.

Comfort level is hard to but a value on.

Spray foam, sips and ICF's are a good value in the long term.

R11 glass is the best value if it is what you can afford while your building.

R15 is harder to justify due to the much higher price per sq ft.

Cellulose is a good option that can be done with a little time and skill. (time is the problem when production building)

It's all relative,

Garett

(post #114761, reply #111 of 116)

Grott, Well I guess we are even I don't even know what your answer is.  Or to what or why or . . .   Huuu?

.

(post #114761, reply #112 of 116)

Grott, Friendly banter?  Why . .  why, what would you expect?  I only ask if you are an Ahole or bipolar if you (preverbial) have a mental tyraid-meltdown over a misspelled word.  I mean really, get a life.   I think medication is superior to meltdowns, and would strongly suggest it to those sufferring from such.   Well . . . , ok if you are an arrogant one bragging on about being God-like and being able to leave OSB in the rain for four years, vs the rest of us mear mortals, then I might also have a word or too to say.  LOL. HAve a great day.

.

(post #114761, reply #114 of 116)

hee hee


Dudley said mear.


 


be a mear Sphere smear


 


 


Peace full.

 

(post #114761, reply #2 of 116)

Yes I used it.


Certainteed and Johns Mansville makes it.


I had to special order it down here cuz no one stocks it.


Cost me at least double if not more, than r-13


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"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"

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"I suspect the only reason 110 rounds was all that was fired was that's all the ammunition they had" -Sheriff G. Judd."

(post #114761, reply #3 of 116)

The local Menards stores here in Omaha carry it.  I've used some.  Seemed to me to be just like the R-13.

(post #114761, reply #4 of 116)

You see that is what I am getting at why does it need to be "special ordered"?

(post #114761, reply #5 of 116)

Can't say.


I can say what is wierd about down here is that most of all the supplies I have seen,  and delivered is faced. Go figure.


 


So nothing surprises me on special orders, standard stock etc.


I can't even get 1x3's without special ordering!


 


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I suspect the only reason 110 rounds was all that was fired was that's all the ammunition they had" -Sheriff G. Judd."

(post #114761, reply #15 of 116)

what I am getting at why does it need to be "special ordered"?


Because the big box stores use National buyers for all of the stocked products.  On the Buyer's spreadsheet, there's a line item for 3.5" batts, another for 5.5", and a third for 12"--the buyer then goes and multiplies nn rolls per yy of shelf per qq stores, then beats up the suppliers to see who will shave 0.25¢ or 0.5¢ per unit off the price to get the whole order.


Buyer does not care what is right, or what ought to be done.  The Buyer cares about scoring a price reduction which he gets back as a commission for making the sale.


As far as the Buyer is concerned, any single customer is far too small to even blip on his radar.  Couple dozen cistomers, even.


Oh, and there's the "well it's here, let's use it" factor, too.  So, the product moves, even if only by default.  You'd likely need an entire state to stop buying R13 to get a big box's attention.


Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I may not be able to help you Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

(post #114761, reply #17 of 116)

Because the big box stores use National buyers for all of the stocked products. 


Its not just the big boxes. I went to all local distributers in my area for Johns Mansville and/or Certainteed within reason.


Guess what?


R-15 all special order.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I suspect the only reason 110 rounds was all that was fired was that's all the ammunition they had" -Sheriff G. Judd."

(post #114761, reply #19 of 116)

why does it need to be "special ordered"?

Same reason that most builders aren't building energy star and vehicles that get 12 mpg are still selling like hot cakes. The American public isn't ready to believe in the energy crises yet. Politicians will continue to do whatever it takes to keep the price of fuel artificially low and Americans are not likely to buy into energy conservation until they absolutely have to.

Why do people expect solar energy sales people to do a pay back calculation that assumes that the solar panel has no value at the end of the payback period rather than assumes that the panel is worth the same or more when it is seven years old and the price of propane is six dollars a gallon?

Why indeed?

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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."

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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."

(post #114761, reply #48 of 116)

Just an interesting article; Energy SaversIt's fiberglass versus cellulose in the battle of the green insulation products.

http://www.ebuild.com/articles/506597.hwx

It seems to me when R13 hit the market it did not take too long for it to replace R11. Yet I have known of R15 for about 5+ years. and it is still not too prevelent.

Wallyo


Edited 1/21/2008 5:28 pm ET by wallyo

(post #114761, reply #49 of 116)

at least 10 years ago we were still using FG.... and it was all R15 unfaced with a 6 mil poly vapor barrrier... then we discovered cellulose and never used FG again

Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

              www.mfsmithbuilder.com

(post #114761, reply #73 of 116)

Mike, does cellulose settle in the wall, thus leaving a gap at the top of the wall?

.

(post #114761, reply #100 of 116)

if it's installed at less than it's settled density, then it will settle


if it's installed at a higher density , then it can't


what's with all this aggressive posting ?


Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore


Edited 1/22/2008 7:23 pm ET by MikeSmith

Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

              www.mfsmithbuilder.com

(post #114761, reply #103 of 116)

Mike, thanks for the reply.  I was familar with blown cellulose, but not the wet-in-wall kind.  My understanding now is that it sticks in the bay.


As for agressive posting.  I have no idea, ask those who originate it.  And please Mike don't mispell a word in a post.  If you do, you will be on the receiving end of this horse's A.  Simple as that.  Go figure.  Some never grow-up.

.

(post #114761, reply #50 of 116)

"Same reason that most builders aren't building energy star and vehicles that get 12 mpg are still selling like hot cake"

Only half the reason is the "energy crisis", the stupid pay back period is the other half.

R-15 cost twice as much as R-13 and R-13 is 25% more than R-11.
The new Diesel that gets 20mpg takes fuel that is now more than reg gas and cost $5000 more than the same truck that drinks regular unleaded at a rate of 13pmg.

The pay back just isn't worth the up front cost.

Garett

(post #114761, reply #51 of 116)

Grott

When you say r15 costs more is that in stock off the shelf or via special order in your area?

Wallyo

(post #114761, reply #108 of 116)

S.O. in most places.

It is usualy marked up the same % as the stock R13 by my salesman.

So price is not realy effected by being special order as long as it comes with the stock order. (no freight)

(post #114761, reply #53 of 116)

<<Only half the reason is the "energy crisis", the stupid pay back period is the other half.>>

Fair enough but what is the payback period of a granite counter top?

We see homes as investments and look for them to appreciate in value over time. What will the value of a house with R-13 insulation be compared to energy star level when the cost of fuel is double what it is today? If you drive a new truck that gets 13 miles per gallon what will gas at $4.50 a gallon do to that investment?

I've been an energy star builder for five or six years now and my phone is still ringing. What is the payback on that?

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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."


Edited 1/21/2008 10:12 pm ET by ShelterNerd

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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."