My wife came home, thought the furnace was a little loud. Standing in two inches of water in the basement she found a 5″ split in the plumbing raining on a cold air return. Typically it must have split a couple milliseconds after we went to work, and it had to be the hot water… Anyow, lacking pex tools, I called a plumber who claimed he’d never seen split pex before and was surprised that it was sort of brittle (which didn’t seem to stop him from wanting to put a splice in). For a couple extra bucks I got him to replace the whole (5′) run. The adjacent piece, past an elbow, was the usual soft consistency.
The plumbing, and the house we built around it, is about 1.5 years old and the split makes me a little nervous. Locally this does not seem to be a common occurrence and I am hoping maybe the original plumber finished up with a piece of pex that had been in the bed of his truck for a couple years soaking up uv. Anybody have a similar experience or an idea of what might have happened?
On the good side, at least I came up with a little evidence to support my argument that I shouldn’t be in any hurry to finish the basement.
Replies
Like most plastics, PEX gets brittle in UV. I've had scraps laying around for a few years and they are stiffer than when new (and we don't get any intense sun up here). Note that HPDE and XLPE (PEX), when spec'd for outdoor use, have carbon black (soot) added to absorb the UV. Consider how brittle a 1-gallon milk jug (HDPE) gets after a few months in the sun.
Hopeful, that was the only old scrap that was used. (Maybe it was the plumber's siphon hose in the truck?) Might be worth a little peace of mind to go around testing the other pieces for resilence and rebound. (With a splice kit in hand. And NEVER start a plumbing project when the stores are closed!)
This may not be relevent, but on a job I just finished that involved some Pex, I noticed that the Pex from two different suppliers was a different color. One an opaque white, the other white but not opaque. The print running down the side was identical on both pieces. The brand is Quest.
I hope I shouldn't have been more concerned!
Rich Beckman
Quest is not a brand I have much good for. I fear we will all suffer for the sins of a few like them. I tried it. One time. Britttle crap.
Please put me out of my misery and tell me the brand name of this PEX.
hey wet- I was talking to a plumber friend about this thread and he wanted to know the brand also. He said he knows some brands are crap but has has had good success with a 'wilford' brand or something like that. Your opinon please since I'm plumbing my house this summer. thanks.
Wirsbo or Rehau will make you happy.
I Glad to see someone else likes WISBRO
The question should be "Who doesn't like Wirsbo."<g>
The pex that split in myhouse was Plasco Ultrapex; 3/4"
Steve
I think I'll stick with copper for my house...
Copper works for me too. A local developer just had his plumber do his entire house in PEX. So what's the life of the stuff? I don't think anyone knows yet. I can see that if it's encapsulated in gypcrete, it might do OK for a reasonable term. But in your walls?? If your house is going to stand for 50-75 years (let's hope so), does this mean that you're going to have to tear out your walls, or someone after you, to replace the PEX in 25 (or 5) years ?? Not worth the risk to me.
An opinion?
I'm a traditionalist, and because of that I'm still partial to copper in domestic water systems.
Still, if you want to compare longevity of product, I'll be the first to admit that PEX will outlast copper by a wide margin. It's essentially impervious to attack from "bad" water, and with a home-run system there are zero unions within the walls to fail.
One more thing to worry about:
does PEX have anything in it to prevent the growth of mold or bacteria? Some plastics are great for growing that stuff, while copper is pretty good at preventing it. Does anyone know if there is an additive or something in the PEX material for this?
Norm: I'm not aware of any biological inhibitors in PEX and I have certainly (intentionally) grown significant biofilms on polyethylene myself. But city water is chlorinated and that is a great biocide. With untreated well water, it could be a concern,especially if there is any food source (organic compounds, dissolved gasoline, etc) in the water. But I would note that these would not be pathological bacteria. Unless your well or city sends you chlorea, hepatitis or e. coli 0157 H7, they won't spontanously develop in your pipes.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Please point me, if you would, to the historical data that proves that "PEX will outlast copper by a wide margin." Don't mean to be argumentative, but how long has this eternal PEX been around? As long as you'd expect a well-built home to last?
BEMW,
The first line of my reply read..."My opinion".
I suppose I could dig up some fact or fiction regarding proposed lifespans of copper and top-grade PEX...though your best studies of PEX will likely originate in Europe. They've been using it much longer than we have in the US.
I've worked a lot with plastics (ChemEngineer/Polymer Sciences by edukashun) and would offer my opinion that Engel cross-linked PEX will last well over a century...maybe 125 years...maybe even 150 years...in a domestic water system.
It is, essentially, an inert product. It's enclosed in wall cavities so it's not going to oxidize from UV exposure. The temps of domestic hot water are not hot enough to damage or deform it, nor are the pressures of a typical water system. Freeze/thaw? Unlike copper, it's flexible enough to endure.
Still, as in my previous post, I like copper. However, I've seen copper attacked by tough water. I've seen pin-prick holes, I've seen soldered joints fail. Some copper is thicker-walled than other, some plumbers solder better than others. Same with PEX installers. Some use top-notch unions and home-run their plumbing and secure the tubing as recommended...some don't.
Some manufacturer's skimp. So do some installers.
Not that it's really relevant, but a few years ago my building official showed me a memo regarding a subdivision...in the southeastern US, I believe...that had an apparent lousy water supply. After 4 or 5 years, the copper in the houses started failing. Instead of repairing the water supply of the subdivision, they replaced the copper with PEX. Been something like 10 or 15 years since, and a couple of years ago they pulled some of the PEX to inspect it, it hadn't changed a bit. Not a great story, as I don't have a source, and it's not anything I'd use as proof or an argument to switch from Cu to PEX. But I thought I'd pass it along regardless.
Copper is great and has proven itself in the industry. I think PEX is an excellent product as well, though it certainly doesn't have the track record in the industry. It's taken me a while, but even though I've used PEX for years in radiant floor heating, I'm finally warming up to PEX for use as domestic water supply lines.
I think the biggest upgrade in PEX over the past few years has been the better quality unions that have come out. For the most part, the tubing has been good, but the unions have been, in my eyes, questionable. Still, even with better fittings, I recommend home run systems. No fittings inside enclosed wall cavities.
Again, it's my opinion.
Regards, Mongo
Hey WetHead, How many houses have you plumbed with PEX? Any problems yet at all? Even the smallest...??
I plan to plumb with Wirsbo Aquapex. Even think I will run extra lines when its so easy (before the sheetrock and finish).
Thanks much!
Bruce
Too many for my young age. LOL And I rest well at night because I use strictly Engel method PEX. Look, I plan to be around for a few more years. Sure don't want some nasty lawsuits 25 years from now. That is a deciding factor in what I will or will not use. In some areas I would refuse to install copper. For this reason. In my own house... PEX all the way. My next house will be on a slab with straw bale walls. PEX all the way.
Hi Guys,
I do the occasional soldering job for myself and my relatives and I would rather not. I'm thinking of switching to PEX. I'm getting better with my soldering technique, but I still hesitate to do any work that's going to be covered up with drywall -an extra outdoor hose spigot that will be in the basement, or an outdoor shower, I'm fine. If I wanted to switch to PEX, what would the startup tool costs be? What would I need? Are the techniques as simple as "This Old House" would have me believe?
Thanks,
Ben
Boy, do I wish my daddy was the Engel who invented PEX....
Got about 2000 ft. of the stuff in my own house, but for heat, not for potable water.Andy Engel, Forum moderator
What would make you imagine that copper would last as long as a house is intended to stand.
I started reading this thread with a scare because of how much pex I've got installed. It's all Wirsbo tho.
Excellence is its own reward!
Interesting question. Not what would make him imagine that, but how long will copper plumbing last. Absent specific, localized water problems, does copper plumbing wear out? Our collective experience with indoor plumbing isn't all that extensive. When did a majority of US homes have indoor plumbing? 150 years ago, almost none did. 65 years ago, lots of rural areas still didn't. (Both my parents grew up without it, and neither of them is 70 yet.) Do we have enough data to justify either hope or pessimism.
Another interesting question; How long do builders and the people who hire them intend houses to stand?
Permanence is its own reward? :)
I noticed North American builders say things like, "This (wood) building will last 100 years!" And European to say "Build with wood? It would only last 100 years!" Guess it depends on your prespective.
I've pulled pure lead pipe of buildings in Den Hagg (The Hague, Netherlands) that must have been there at least 120 years, maybe much longer from a cistern system. I've never worked on copper (or PEX!) that old.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
I've pulled lead waste lines/traps from 60 to 80 year old jobs that had nearly worn through from, I assume the turbulance of waste product and water. I've read that you shouldn't expect more than forty years or so from copper. Most old places around here had iron pipe originally and it has been replaced last generation with copper.
Mt main point is that expecting any component of the house to last as long as the entire structure is not realistic. We replace windows, mortar, roofs, paint, flooring, appliances, wiring, heating systems, and owners. Why should supply lines be any different? We strive for the best, based on current knowledge and the owners economic circumstances, but just as copper and pex have replaced lead and bamboo, I expect that by the time they bury me, there will be yet another improvement or two in our industry brought on by technology.
My appologies to all the Luddites...
Excellence is its own reward!
Only 100 years? There are cedar beams used inside the pyramids. Stone catherdrals in Europe have copper or lead over wood frame for the roof, and that lasts well over 100 years.
-- J.S.
I have a bit of experience with copper in concrete houses...I guess that here in the USVI around 1980 and back people put copper in contact with concrete and it is failing in lots of houses. (if you use it now it has to be sleeved inside plastic).
The problem was worse when the electrics are grounded to the water pipes....
I've only had one experience with copper "wearing out" The house was built in 1965, and all plumbing (supply and waste) was copper. About 1996 they had to replace it all, as some of it had "rusted" through. I know rusted isn't the correct term. The pipes had green stuff all over them, and holes started popping up.
That particular house is on well water - Don't know if that has anything to do with it.
Profanity ####
> That particular house is on well water - Don't know if that has anything to do with it.
Very probably it does. They should get their water tested. It can be treated.
-- J.S.
copper does wear out... especially if installed incorrectly... as most is!
just another crappy brand... sorry... it will probably be OK... see, I can't install "probably"... I have to have full confidence... I fear these cheaply made brands will give PEX a bad name... did you know there are several DIFFERENT ways of making PEX? Some are good... some are ????????
Go with a manufacturer that uses the (andy) Engel method for cross-linking and you'll be in good shape. Well, you may still be in bad shape, but your PEX will be in good shape.<g>
I am building a house for myself, I am thinking of putting in an "IPEX" product called "KITEC" a pipe made from an aluminum tube laminated between two layers of "PEX"
I have concerns about copper pipe leaching harmful oxides and sulfates into the drinking water.
Derivatives of copper sulfates were used for a long time as anti-fouling paint in the marine industry. Ecologists and the United Nations have caused the discontinuance of this coating in the marine industry because it is harmful to marine life. I wonder when someone will awake in a panic like was done to benzene, asbestos, and fiberglass concerns, and finally admit that copper wasn't a much better product than lead pipe was for drinking water delivery.
I would like to hear from someone in toxicology or EPA about whether I should be concerned about copper pipe for water delivery.
They took the lead out of the solder used for water lines, so they definitely looked at the issue. Just what we need is yet another bogus environmental scare.
-- J.S.
I hope that someone or group, not connected with copper pipe mfg., would test it out for the good of all. The question has been on my mind for some time and I don't have the scientific knowledge to define an answer. Some of our illnesses or health problems might be related to the leaching of copper oxide or sulfate into our water. A number of replies on this discussion indicate, and also from my own experiences, that copper does oxidize "rust" to the point of causing pinhole leaks. The oxidized material just doesn't disappear in the air. Some of the metal ends up in our body. I didn't mean to start a scare epidemic, but too raise the question for discussion or study to maybe discover it as a cause to some of our health problems.
What about the outside main line? I'm assuming if you trust PEX in your walls you have no problem with it in the ground?
Steve