I’m a new home builder and was talking to my contractor about interior paint. I said I wanted Behr because I had read it was a good brand of paint but he, with absoloutely no reservarions whatsoever, told me how he wasn’t impressed with the Home Depot brand. But then he gave me several reasons why he highly and enthusiastically recommended Sherwin Williams. What has me totaly flummoxed, though, is that Consumer Reports rates Sherwin Wms dead last in almost every category they rate paint in. Is Consumer Reports a couple short of a six-pack here or is my contractor looking at different issues than CR does? Does anyone out there have any pros or cons about Sherwin Wms? How about Behr and other brands? Any inputs most appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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I just had our house painted with 34 Gallons of ICI Fortis. Similar to duration but only $26.00 per Gallon. 34 Gallons was a lot of paint for a red brick Bungalow.
I only use Porter or ICI. BM's high cost is due to marketing.
Chuck S
I use Behr only when the customer insists upon it. Ben Moore is my choice above all others. I never read the consumer reports, but someone told me it is rated #2 behind Behr. How Behr can be rated number one is way beyond my comprehension. I think the stuff is gargabe.....IMHO
Brian.....Bayview Renovations
Benjamin Moore, hands down. I concur with everyone else so far who is astonished that Behr gets anything above a "total garbage" rating from anyone. I wonder if it has anything to do with the amount of advertising by Home Depot in CR?
Can't speak for Sherwin Williams, never used it myself.
"I wonder if it has anything to do with the amount of advertising by Home Depot in CR?"Consumer Reports doesn't accept advertising from anyone, and sues companies that use their CR ratings for marketing purposes.Rebeccah
1. C2 ......goes on like silk. (It's a bit pricy - it's from France)
2. Benjamin Moore ....a close second.
3. All the rest.
I just painted two rooms with the Behr from home depot at my house. I used thier primer first and then one coat . I tinted the primer and my coat was eggshell in sheen. I covered up dark red with light brown. I like it. I feel its as good as any Ive used. I have used Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams and even Richards Paint. To me they all seem to be the same. Maybe I aint as picky but my customers dont complain either.-worth exactly 2 cents!
Consumer Reports has NO, as in zero, advertising...they are funded entirely by subscription, & that's why they are regarded as the most objective rating outfit.
I don't always agree with their ratings of certain items, but overall, you can trust them...
When I saw that, I thought it was wrong too. I think they factor in price too much with their ratings. I use their information and ratings as another source but certainly not the be all of opinions.
Muralo...painter just finished a foyer, stair well, hallway, 2 bedrooms, and bath using muralo and the coverage was excellent. old plaster walls with many "character" marks, if you know what i mean, and they are well hidden now. color is rich...i am pleased.
--- I think they factor in price too much with their ratings. ---I'll have to check to see if they're still doing that. A year or two ago they changed their magazine layout and also their ratings system, to where it factored in cost. But they got a lot of complaints from readers, since the price/quality tradeoff really is an individual judgment. I thought they switched back, but maybe not.Rebeccah
I tried BM's new paint. Its called "Aura" and its very expensive at about fifty bucks a gallon but I didn't need more than a gallon so I figured I'd try it.
Let me keep it simple...IT's GREAT!!!! One coat did the job for me. If you need two it can be recoated in an hour. Over dark colors they say two coats will absolutly do it and I believe it.
The color is deep and beautiful. I'd absolutly use it again and let my customers know now that I only use the world's best paint.
If you're looking to spend less money ...about $30 a gallon I have to admit I really did like the Ralph Laren from HD. I was sceptical but I do have to say it covers really nice if you're more budget conscious.
Beher I don't care for at all. A lot of it goes on like water especially the white/light colors. The darker colors are marginally better but for just a little more money you can get the RL or if you REALLY care then try BM's AURA!!!
edit: oh yeh...its said that you don't need primer with Aura but I ain't swearing to anything. Check it out yourself...I painted over old paint.
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit."
Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 5/17/2007 8:53 pm ET by andybuildz
Edited 5/17/2007 9:01 pm ET by andybuildz
Since you mentioned the Aura paint, I figured I'd post a link to my previous comments about it:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=88164.1
And, BTW, I agree with what you said about it. I'll also add that it's the most washable paint, by far, that I've every used.
-Don
And, BTW, I agree with what you said about it. I'll also add that it's the most washable paint, by far, that I've every used.<<<<After I used it all I could think was.."this is the paint of the future"...REALLY! It had that much of an impact on me. And I couldn't believe that it worked so well with just one coat.
The color is so different to me. Seems much richer and you're right about the washability of it cuz I'm still working in that room and I keep getting the walls dirty...washes right up with no ill effect whatsoever.
I "almost" want another room to paint now...lol
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Read about it a while back. It's fomulated differently than other paints. I don't think it's available everywhere yet.
I don't think it's available everywhere yet.<<<Its available everywhere by me that carries BM. I'm on LI in NY.
You can have it shipped for $10 a gallon but thats a bit over the top I think. Expensive enough as it is..at $50-55 a gallon.
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I've used Behr a lot and like it.
I've used Sherwin Williams some and like it and am especially impressed with their reds. The reds cover better than anything else I have ever used.
I like Devoe (or whatever it's called this week).
I've used Benjamin Moore some and like it a lot but don't like its limited availability.
I've used Glidden and won't consider it unless the customer insists and then add a 'rider' to the contract that I can bill extra for delays and extra cleanup.
Blake
BenMoore is the most commonly used and widely available in my area.I agree that a customer specing Behr or Glidden should be preparred to pay for the labour of an extra ooat or two of paint to cover
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Is California brand paint available up there? I'm outside boston and their operations are in Andover MA (next door to Lowell/Lawrence area). I believe it is available east of the mississippi only. It is also a very good paint, basically the same as BM but a few dollars less. A few pro's around here use Sherwin williams but almost all use california and BM interchangeably. For exterior the really like the california better.http://www.californiapaints.com/
Yes, I can get California. Haven't seen it used yet myself.I can also get C2 but not exactly local. I have to drive down to Kennebunkport to get it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Devoe is good.But only after you whip it whip goodI don't Know what I am doing
But
I am VERY good at it!!
Crack that whip. whip it good! LOL
I find Behr to be watery and not very good at covering with anything less than 2 coats (sometimes more depending on the color and what you're going over). For the few $$ gallon difference it's worth buying a 'heavier' paint.
I use Sherwin Williams alot, a store is nearby and their better paints cover very well, but you'll be spending $30+/gallon. Duration is close to $50 but I did a house (exterior) with one coat and it's held up beautifully.
Like another poster, I also like the Ralph Lauren at HD. Did an interior post and beam with a deep barn red on all the exposed wood and it was nice to work with; covered well and easy to clean up.
-Norm
Ben Moore is the best paint I've ever used. I can't get it locally anymore since the store that carried it closed (the manager retired and by the time they got a competent manager someone else opened up an MAB paint store and managed with excellence!).
Since Ben Moore is no longer available, I've used several other paints. Sherwin Williams comes close. Behr, Sears, MAB, Ace Hardware, Olympic, and others (I'm sure) do not come close.
I can't wait til next year when we move and Ben Moore will be more available locally again!
Oh yes, the one time I actually painted an entire house exterior (with Ben Moore), the customer called back after a few years (just maybe four years, clearly they've had poor experience with paint jobs in the past!) and complained that the paint still looked good. They were tired of the color, but the condition of the paint wouldn't allow them to justify repainting.
Rich Beckman
Next year, "locally" might include driving as far as Ben Moore is from me now, but it is somehow different if it's all in the same town as opposed to the next county seat over. LOL!
You might check back w/ Ace Hardware...in my neck of the woods, they're carrying Benjamin Moore paint now. Nice looking stuff.
Jason
"You might check back w/ Ace Hardware...in my neck of the woods, they're carrying Benjamin Moore paint now."I'm in the local Ace Hardware store all the time so I am sure they do not carry Ben Moore.I will mention your post to them. Maybe it is an opportunity they are missing.
Rich BeckmanYou are here.
I can get BM here in CT in the few Ace hardware stores nearby. The selection depends on the store, but they can get anything special ordered.
Hope this helps. Rich.
There are two Ace hdwrs near me. One carries BM, the other P&L. When I asked why no BM at the second Ace they said BM only allows X number of retail outlets in one area.
Even though it was another Ace, they wouldn't sell to the second one...buic
"One carries BM"How bit of an Ace Hardware store is it.I mentioned this to the owner of the local Ace and she asked if I knew if it was a "corner hardware" like hers or if it was one of the really big supermarket size Ace hardwares.
Rich BeckmanYou are here.
One Ace location is big (with BM paints), the other even bigger (with the P&L).
There used to be a local home center called "Pergaments" here. Ace took over many of their locations when they folded...buic
You hsve to get it at Aboffs
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"You have to get it at Aboffs"
Get what ??? and why?
If you're trying to confuse me, it's working (g)...buic
Ben Moore paint...they have it at Aboffs on LI
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
We've got an Aboff's in Amagansett now.
We've got an Aboff's in Amagansett now.<<<Yeh yeh...I've stayed in amagansett...come to think of it...my surroundings coulda used Aboffs.
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I think you can get an ointment for that down at the clinic.I don't Know what I am doing
But
I am VERY good at it!!
I had to go to consumer reports rating and see what behr finish they are talking about . They specify "Behr Premium Plus Enamel From Home Depot" So if you bought it some where else or its not Premium Plus Enamel your talking oranges not apples. What you see on their free portion of their web page is misleading you have to be a paid subscriber to get the full details of their rating. I am in no way a true consumer reports follower I just like to read their BS to see how it stacks up against everyone else's ;-)
I also want to say home depot sucks for customer service 99% of the time unless you are returning something or you fluke out and get the one person in the store who knows what they are talking about.
have a good one
Ben Moore and Sherwin Wiliams are the only two we use unless speced by a desiner or architectfor soemthing different.
Sometimes Farrow and Ball.
behr is a middle of the road acceptable sometimes from what I hear, but what I have used of it would rate a 4 on a sscale of 1-10
I have almost never agreed with any findings I have seen reported in CR. I trhink they must be a bunch of high school kids running tets without controls and no real world experiencce. I put no credence in their reports
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Beware buying paint at Homies (HD), I bought two gallons of behr paint only to find water in the cans, they say it happens all the time, people use the paint and return the cans for full credit.
I swear by Ben Moore paint, great coverage for all types of finishes
Heard the same thing at our local hardware store....someone bought a can of paint and opened it to find it full of sand (we live on an island). It was a return from someone. Man, what some people will do!
Brian…..Bayview Renovations “Quality and Service for <!----><!----><!---->Long Beach<!----> <!---->Island<!----><!---->”<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
“If the girl’s alive at the end of the song, it ain’t bluegrass!”<!----><!---->
I wonder which Sherwin Williams product line they were testing. They make several different "grades" of paint, Behr makes 1. If CR was comparing similarly-priced paints, I can see how it's possible for Behr to rate higher. Behr is exclusive to Home Depot and winning the price war is their game. The more expensive grades of S-W paints (such as Cashmere or Duration) are quite good.
Benjamin Moore basically makes 2 "grades" of interior paint. Regal and Moorcraft. I use Regal and I'm happy with it (as are my customers). I don't like Moorcraft, but only because it splatters too much when applied with a roller. Given a choice, I'd rather use Behr than Moorcraft, but I avoid using Behr if possible. Not because it's a "bad" paint per se. I've actually had pretty good luck with it. But because I think B-M is better. The top-of-the-line S-W paints are at least as good as B-M and probably better.
Actually B-M makes a third grade of paint called "Aura". It's spectacular stuff, but so expensive that it's more of a specialty paint.
Around here, B-M has the recognized name. The marketing/advertising that's needed to create that name probably has a lot to do with the price. I'm paying well over $30/gal for interior paint. That's still cheap considering how long it will be between paint jobs and how much more the labor costs are.
As for Consumer Reports... I take everything they say with a very large grain of salt. It seems to me that the best people to ask which paint to use would be professional painters. I never see professional painters using Behr. (Except for me, of course. But that's only because it was a rental and the customer bought the paint already... oh yeah, and I stayed inside so nobody saw me using it anyway)
-Don
For the DIY who does not use more than 20 gal of any given color of paint in an average year, FREE paint at garage sales is my choice.
Mix and match. Scored about 15 quarts of free colorant when Home Base and Ernst folded, so then about any color if you collect a stash of 50 or so gallons of different colors, white is best to pick up of course.
Usually can get about 20 gal of both int and ext paint per year free that way, even scored 20 gal of grey epoxy floor paint one year.
I must have about 40 gallons of paint in my basement. Most are about half full. I try to leave paint with the customer, but sometimes I over-estimate or they change their mind about a color and I take the old color just to prevent confusion when they go to touch-up.
Come on over, I can't give this stuff away.
I have to agree with the others that dont understand the high rating CR gave Behr. When I first started my home improvement project I used Behr because I didn't know there was any difference in paint brands. I didn't like the way it went on or how it covered. A friend suggested SW so I tried it and I liked it a LOT better. Now, I've only used SW Superpaint and Classic 99 and it is way better than Behr. It is more expensive but I used to buy it mostly on sale and then its only a little more than Behr. Now I have a contractor account at SW so I always get a least a little discount even when stuff isn't on sale
Nobody's mentined Valspar - so I'll do it.They used to make the American Traditions paint at Lowes, now - it's branded Valspar.It's also available at Aco hardware stores around me.Either one - it's been the best paint I've ever used. Great coverage, dries fast, cleans off rollers and brushed fast - and is economical compared to buying SW paint.Plus - at Lowes around here anyways, there's hardly ever a lineup at the paint counter.At SW - I always have to wait in line and the price is higher.Behr paint is the worst - crap coverage - I had one job (client bought the paint...) where it took 3 coats of pale purple to cover a primered interior room! WTF is that?I'll never use Behr again.I've used BM, but again - always a line at the paint shop and I have Lowes stores every 7-8 miles around me so it's real handy.Try the Valspar - you'll not regret it.JT
I think there is ALOT of hit and miss with all the paints we are talking about here.
I've used Valspar in my old home, some of it I liked and some I didn't. I used it in my kitchen here and hated it. I had a high gloss red that couldn't cover anything. If I painted a window with it I'm alsmost sure it would still be transparent! But - other finishes and colors I had really liked before.
With the Behr, I HATE their high gloss white... but their Satin went on really nice! Eggshell, not so good.
I think there may be more variability within the brands than we should expect.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
Paul,For painting interior walls a red color you need to get a dark gray primer. Get "The Gripper" primer which is tinted gray and have them add as much black pigment as they are willing to put in. This dark gray primer will cover a white wall in one coat with no show through. Then paint your red color. You will be amazed at how well the red covers the gray primer.
I think you are on to something with the red. About 8 years ago my wife stripped wallpaper on one wall of a basement bathroom wallpaper. It came off poorly and left the wall pretty beat up. We ended up buying a textured wallpaper rather than painting like planned, and used a hard rubber roller to paint just the raised parts red. Turned out nice.
The kid at the Lowe's counter refused to sell me a bright red without a particular tinted primer to go with it. Seemed like they'd had trouble with the red before and he was under clear orders. He eventually sold me the paint without primer.
I only use American Tradition/Valspar for myself. I'm happy with it and it's convenient to pick up. I won't touch Behr - never liked how it went on or covered. Have friends who have used seven coats to change the color of their trim. I've had better luck with low end Glidden than Behr.
I've had great results with stain from Lowe's......believe it was Valspar brand.
Great service too.
SW is an old company. If you ask, and your clerk does a little research, they still have the recipies for some old, beautiful colors from the nineteenth century and early 20th century.I've never investigated BM for this service, but I'd like to.Another fan of Farrow and Ball.
I see that a few of the best paints weren't even metioned here yet...Fine paints of Europe and Graham paints...There is nothing that compares to Fine Paints for trim...Their wall paint is silky smooth, but pricey...Us high end painters in Minneapolis use Graham paints for interior walls...Its the only true scrubable flat wall paint...Its a small company out of Chicago.....I'm still debating what to use on an exterior job...I have not tried that C2 ? yet.
I'll second that Fine Paints of Europe endorsement. Their gloss over a "Swedish Putty" application can make a new car hood look flat!!!! My front door looked three feet deep for years until I changed it to glass and put a quick coat of latex on it. For an unbelievable exterior job try Pittsburgh Paints "Manor Hall Timeless" exterior satin. It covers like nothing I have ever seen, doesn't require a primer, and is incredibly fade resistant. It was allegedly one of the first with a "cross linking" base technology that everyone else is copying now 3 years later and I still haven't seen an equal.
http://www.ppg.com/ppgaf/pittsburgh/timeless/timeless.htm
Thanks for the info...I will dig into it some more this week...
We will be using Donald Kaufmann paints for our interior - http://www.donaldkaufmancolor.com/kaufman.swf - he takes Pratt & Lambert Accolade and adds 'full spectrum' pigments - the colors are amazing.
Expensive stuff, but the depth of color and ability of a color to fully complement the colors around it is pretty amazing.
Jeff
JD Powers just release a survey on CUSTOMER SATISFACTION on paints.http://sev.prnewswire.com/retail/20070531/LATH03631052007-1.html"Benjamin Moore Paints ranks highest in customer satisfaction with interior paint, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2007 Interior Paint Satisfaction Study(SM). Benjamin Moore Paints earns an index score of 805, performing particularly well in five of the six areas studied: application performance, design guides and instructions, durability performance, warranty/guarantee, and appearance and application features. Following in the rankings are Duron Paints (788) and BEHR Paints (786). Also performing above the industry average is American Tradition Paints (779), which performs particularly well in price competitiveness.The study finds that customers regard application performance (quality of coverage, paint flow and leveling, and level of fumes/odor) as the most important factor in driving satisfaction with interior paint. According to the study, customers pay an average of $21 per gallon for interior paint."A large majority of respondents-92 percent-report applying their interior paint themselves or with help from family and friends," said Howland. "Customers are looking for paint that is easy to apply and provides clear instructions on how to obtain the best results."The 2007 Interior Paint Satisfaction Study is based on responses from 7,440 respondents who purchased and applied interior paint within the previous 12 months. Overall Customer Satisfaction with Interior Paint
(Based on a 1,000-point scale) Benjamin Moore Paints 805
Duron Paints 788
BEHR Paints 786
American Tradition Paints 779
Industry Average 779
Dutch Boy 777
Ralph Lauren Paints 776
Sherwin-Williams 776
Sears 775
Dunn-Edwards 774
Pittsburgh Paints 772
Valspar Paints 772
KILZ Paints 770
Kelly-Moore 768
Glidden 759".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
No doubt, Benjamin Moore is excellent paint. But I've rolled some interior flat and low lustre enamel recently made by Behr and found them to cover well with one coat. The enamel was over primer on green board.
Behr is an old company. Originally they made only wood stains, as I recall, going back fifty years ago or more. Been successful long before hooking up with HD.
I once asked a paint store manager about the difference in how various paints cover. He said it was simply a question of how much pigment is in the paint. The pigments are the expensive ingredients while the vehicle cost nearly nothing, so he said.
I recently had to use a couple gallons of behr at a customer's house after they had bought it and then called me in to paint. I had not used behr before and will not use it again without an up charge. I had to cut twice and roll three times, I never have to do that with SW or BM or for that matter even valspar from Blowes. It did not apply smoothly and the coverage sucks.
I have used a lot of Moorcraft SuperSpec from BM on houses that I am flipping where I am cost conscience and yes it tends to splatter when rolled but I tend to only spray in this situation anyway.
I swear by BM Impervo for int. trim and doors and SW Duration for a lasting ext. paint.
I agree that SW is the only way to go for reds. As for any other int. color I use SW or BM, whichever has a color the customer likes.
I will even use Sears paint in a pinch as it is a SW product.
When a customer wants me to use a non SW or BM paint because it is cheaper I explain that if I have to use 2 gallons of $18 per gallon paint to cover vs 1 $30 gallon of paint it quickly becomes more expensive. Further I have had better luck matching old BM and SW paint for repair jobs than any other paint because they tend not to phase out colors as quickly as the big box paints.
As for CR ratings vs a painting contractor's opinion they are probably looking at different things. CR might look at and place importance on things like PRICE, durability to abrasion, cleanability, coverage on new walls with new primer, and VOC's. A contractor will place importance on coverage over new AND old surfaces, ease of application, range of colors available, customer service at dealer and longevity and durability over time.
For service for instance, my BM dealer will deliver paint to my jobsite and charge my in-house account, all I have to do is call and tell them type, how much and what color code and 2 or 3 hours later that S-10 is in the drive, try to get a big box to do that.
Sherwin Williams has good paint, but the service at my local store sucks. They will not take orders over the phone. My time is money and having to go into the store, stand in line (usually), and wait while they mix the paint is a waste of time. It usually takes at least 45 minutes. Never going back.I painted the exterior of my house using Pratt & Lambert paint, which got good reviews for durability and color fastness from Consumer Reports. I found it to have high solids content and cover well. I would recommend it. I used to work as a professional painter for a very large painting company in the Chicago area which used SW exclusively. One year I headed the crew doing warrantee work. We repainted some homes where the SW Superpaint failed to a large degree in just a few years. Not sure if it was the paint or lack of adequate prep work.
Another Pratt & Lambert vote.
Behr has poor adhesion and terrible coverage.
Any concern with VOCs? If so, Sherwin Williams has a low-VOC. But VOCs are lower in Ben Moore's Pristine Eco Spec interior paints. Used them 3 years ago for myself (due to asthma) and I could have my face right in the can with no problems. Great paint so far. Anyone else know about its durability over time?
I wanted to kick Behr in the can while it was down too. I have been using many gallons of ceiling white. My personal favorite is a semi-local brand Ferrell Calhoun, they are not in all markets but they are here and I like them.
I went through about fifteen gallons of Ferrell Calhoun on one job and broke off to do a quick three rooms with big, walkin closets. The HO had the paint waiting and it was Behr ceiling white for the closets. I was thinking a what a breeze this will be---I wound up hurting my back from cleaning up all the drips, it was so watery and I absolutely could not believe how runny it was.
I have also used alot of ceiling white from Lowes--it is branded
Enterprise--I like it as well as any brand of ceiling white--even has a nice color---white but not glaring.
I wound up hurting my back from cleaning up all the drips, it was so watery and I absolutely could not believe how runny it was<<<Absolutly amazing its even on the market. I used an off white flat to paint a ceiling. I needed an umbrella to paint with it. Totally crap paint!!!
Specially the whites.
Water is thicker.
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I painted my exterior trim this week.
I went to Home Depot on Monday and looked at what they had for exterior paint.
I live in a 1200 ft red brick house and so I only need 5 gallons of paint as I am only painting trim and the eaves and garage door.
I talked to the paint dept at Home Depot and the young man said "we have a new Behr exterior paint which has a lifetime warranty"
I looked at it and bought it for $31 per gallon.
My new color is dark brown and I painted over medium shade of green.
The paint was very thick and I put it on mostly with a roller.
I could leave it with just the one coat as it covered pretty well but I may go over the easy to paint areas with a second coat.
I don't see how they can call their paint "lifetime warranty"
The young man in the paint dept said this new paint is very different and with a different chemistry.
Good luck.
^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
There's some Dutch (or is it German ?) paint that's really good, comes as a gel. But getting it tinted is a hassal. I've tried Behr, CIL, BM, and SW and rate them in that order. It might be different if I needed to production paint in a low-bid evironment, but in a two-coat over primer world, Behr delivers. The longer the recoat time, the bettre the results.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Do you get that one from Eastern Romania up there yet? What the LOL.
This sounds kinda serious though ;
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=bdfc15ab-3f27-44a9-ab01-aab21a2d8005
bayouelton,
I will say this about Consumer Reports. They don't try to bias results at all.. they let test results make the final determination.. that or a large enough sampling of something say the reliability of a brand of car that can't possibly be influanced.
There is no incentive for them to alter results.. they don't accept advertizing or offer endosement deals. Their only value is due to the accuracy of their results..
Your contractor has no such incentive.. He may get a rebate or other incentive to use that brand.. I've seen all sorts of deals. Sad to say some painters use inferior products simply to ensure the need for a repaint in the future.. (some, not all) And it may be an honest experiance. Sometime in the past the company involved may have saved his bacon or helped him out.. However loyalty to a supplier may cause you to reconsider the quality of work he will do..
That is one of the goofiest posts you have ever made here, and you do score high on the Consumer Reports Goofiness test!You have managed to defame a contractor who gave good advice, while praising a magazine that does halfazzed testing.The whole CR thing is based on a presupposition that because they do not accept advertising, their results cannot be skewed by filthy lucre.But there are other ways to skew the results.I am very sure that when they do their hiring, they choose from candidates espousing certain philosophical leanings. "green" and "cheap" are two that stand out. There is a big difference betweeen cheap and value, a point I am sure you must stress to your customers daily if you sell quality equipment.It has been years since I have subscribed because they destroyed any confidence I might have had in them. An objective reader can see how they set tests up in the first place with questions that skew the results towards the kind of products that they would choose philosophicly, then they add comentary to the results to reflect their own leanings.One example I remember from about 15 years back or so. I had bneen driving a Suburban for several years and was thinking about trading to a new or newer one. The CR report shopwed the maint records for that vehicle to be the highest cost vehicle to maintain of any in that class of passenger car. They had a write up that because of that fact, it would be their last choice to buy.Well Dhuh, Gee! It really is not a passenger car and and it is the largest vehicle of its class on the raod anywhere in the world! I would expect it tocost a bit more to maintain. But then looking further at the details, it was something like only seventy bucks a year more than average, a piddly drop in the bucket, still in reasonable range and definitely not worth making such a negative essay condemnation of such a fine automobile. They were speaking from their background giving greater emphasis to the "green" philosophy that colours their conclusions and tests, an opinion they also mentioned in that article. They totally missed the fact that the cost per passenger seat was far lower with a Suburban than most of the other vehicles they copmpared it too.That is just one example. I still flip through it sometimes when spending my required two hours in the waiting room of one doctor or another, and I think that since then, they have gotten more PC and limited in their ability to think in real terms about real world products withouth prejudicing their reports because of their presuppositions.The contractor was right in line with a dozen or more posts right here fromn the real world while CR was shuffling paper.
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The last time I saw a CR paint review, they gave the highest ratings to paint that can only be purchased at stores that historically give the worst service so I guess they don't factor that into their ratings.
As a professional, I prefer to do business with stores that treat me as such.
Edited 5/19/2007 9:08 am ET by Catspaw
Piffan
You claim me to be goofy and yet you contradict yourself right in your own post! Plus you didn't carefully read what I posted..
Before I begin let me say that I believe in the things that Consumer reports advocates. So much so That I don't buy their magazine.. Instead I read it in the public library!
Now if that's not green I don't know what is (it's also cheap too!)
Like you I cannot agree with every conclusion they make,, however careful reading will find honest answers. Yes, some of their asumptions are valid only within the definitions they choose.. again I'll use your example.. they didn't mention the ability to haul really heavy loads or tow heavy trailers. Things we do ruetinely that they may not have considered as important as we do..
I also read where my pickup scored below others in some areas of reliablity and yet with 272,000 miles on it and no major repairs done yet I would say that for me their conclusions were wrong..
Yet if you buy a simple toaster for example there are ones that your grandparents will hand down to your children and ones that will be replaced within a few years.. Same with microwaves or matteresses or paint..
It helps to have someone objective evaluate every option before you spend your money.. You still have choices, for example if you want a particular feature but Consumer reports doesn't think that feature is important you can put your own weight to it's value and buy whatever you want.. The differance is that you will know that the antennia is prone to breaking, so you take a little extra care.. or whatever..
Now back to your rant about consumer reports..
Did they lie when they said it cost more to maintane the suburban? You mentioned that the cost per seat is lowest but unless you normally fill every seat that point is moot isn't it? Did they lie when they reported the testing on paints? You are free to ignore some or all of their results as you see fit, but I'll bet within the peramiters they choose they are absolutely correct..
As for me defaming the contractor.. I said no such thing.. I mearly pointed out things that could influeance his relationship with a supplier. I know that it occurs and it's not always in the best interest of the client.. Because I had no knowledge of the contractor in question I didn't make any comment about his reliability, honesty, or any other factor which influeances the selection of a contractor..
I also didn't suggest that the OP do it himself.. something which I strongly believe in. I accepted the premise that the OP was going to have it done.
good counter pointnow, would you rather have SW, BM, or that crappy Behr paint in your own home?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffan,
Which paint? I'm afraid that's an area that I will defer either to my sister or SWMBO. My sister is a professional, degreed, licensed interior designer. SWMBO can make my life hell. Frankly if they tell me to smear cow patties on the wall I'll start smearing.. ;-)
Thanks for honestly qulaifying the value of your comments for the purpose of this thread.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I want to give Frenchy some credit here: While a lot of his conclusions, his opinions, his research results, ad nauseum are usually anecdotal and flimsey, he has begun to soften his retorts to those who challenge him.
I actually like the guy and hope to meet him someday.
BUT, I'm afraid that one day, when he begins to peruse the now inaccessable documentation for his opinions which is stowed away in the attic of his crib, he will become red-faced, "humblified" (my term) and will spend some of his 23 hours wake time doing prospero searches of old threads and posting mea culpas.
In the mean time, like a few of the long-time posters here, Frenchy is an icon (however flawed) and I always enjoy his posts.
And I'm really hoping he begins his therapy with learning why carpenter ants like to nest in foam.
Regarding CR.The are good and frequently excellent. They have their down days. In general, if they have made a mistake it is fairly obvious.Ten years ago they gave a Wal Mart line of paint a favorable rating. I generally use BM, but for $12 I gave the stuff a whirl. It was like painting a cross between a childs finger paints and extra gelatin Jello.
I haven't seen any one mention Rodda paints. http://www.roddapaint.com/ Does no one use that brand? "Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 5/19/2007 9:29 pm by dovetail97128
Piffan,
I do always try for honesty, while I may not provide a link to the source of my information, it is as accurite as I can be..
I know it seems silly but I've never googled or whatever it is. I go to two sites on the internet. period.. Fine Wood Working and Fine Home Building.. I almost never connect to links others provide unless I feel extremely confident about the source of those links.. and that occurs only rarely..
I'm old fashioned.. I prefer to look things up in books rather than go on the web for information.. I know that makes me a luddite and I guess I like that..
Reminds me of a guy on another forum. His computer got hosed with spyware, so he became a Reform Luddite. For awhile he would type up his forum posts, then he would got to the library and scan the typewritten pages int a .JPG picture... which he would then log onto the library internet connection and attach the picture to a post instead of typing it in.
He kept it up for about a week!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Parenting has always been a mix of sage life advice and inexcusable laziness.
Paul,
I bought my first computer in 1988, Kinda proud of being ahead of the curve and felt I could pick stuff up as I went. Major frustration!
When I gave my old one away I bought a new one in 1994 and while their had been some improvements they weren't real user friendly back then..
My major problems started when I connected to the internet.. It seemed like just about once a year some virus would occur that had all the IT guys scratching their heads and usually meant I needed a new computer.
The last big virus /worm whatever it was that caused AOL to put an active system in place to fight viruses almost had me throw mine out completely.. About that time we got a new manager who thought that he could run the company with his computer and didn't need any real human contact at all.. He's still there and the company has done that much the poorer because of his attitude.
Any way having a computer was a requirement and so I bought this one.. if it get's infected, that's it I'm done buying computers..
>>Any way having a computer was a requirement and so I bought this one.. if it get's infected, that's it I'm done buying computers<<http://www.laptop.org/
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Your contractor has no such incentive.. He may get a rebate or other incentive to use that brand.. I've seen all sorts of deals. Sad to say some painters use inferior products simply to ensure the need for a repaint in the future.. <<<<<<<frenchy
thats sorta hard to fathom when it comes to paint. We all know that paint is cheap in comparrison to any other building product (painting is mostly labor $$)and far as paint "wearing out" (cheap paint??)so the painter is ensured another job in the near future makes no sense to me. For one..people repaint because it gets dirty or their just sick of it IMO. To me..especially on interior paint..it only makes it more difficult for the painter to work which means the job is harder to do = less profit.
"Revolution is not something fixed in ideology, nor is it something fashioned to a particular decade. It is a perpetual process embedded in the human spirit." Abbie Hoffman
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
C2 interior, it's the best, 16 element vs everyone elses 12 element
BM exterior & trim
Rolled/brushed and sprayed, in So. Calif. - Dunn Edwards, Sinclairs, Vista, SW, Behr and found the Behr paint to apply as good and sometimes better than those listed. Durability and fade are important and Behr is one of the leaders in my book. True SW is a good paint. CR is not partial to brands and corp. money!!! So their opinion in probably unbias.
And about cleaning guns/brushes....the Behr is a BEAR to clean off hands, tools, etc.....more so than the other brands...makes sense to me that it sticks to stucco/wood better than the others also/ Good luck on your choice
The enamel paint isn't too bad, but Behr primer is tenacious - be prepared to have dedicated primer brushes.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Phill Giles<!----><!---->
The Unionville Woodwright<!----><!---->
You need to know how thick the paint is when it cures this is a big reason you pay more for some paints. It takes about 30 days for the paint to cure. For instance (I use BM- Regal Matte dries at 1.4 mils. (it has ceramic beads) so it is scrubable. Other cheaper paints dry at 1.1mils or less. The new Aura from BM dries at 1.7 so this is pretty thick paint and the reason why it goes for a premium... Never tried a lot of paints out there. Never had a problem (mildew, peeling) with BM and I dont mind paying for better service.... so, why change?
Trusting consumer reports for anything construction related?...That's a good joke!
I have a problem lumping all products from a brand together and claiming they are all good or bad. Some products will be crap and some fantastic, when has this not been the case with any products from handtools to trucks to paint? We're no better than Consumer Reports if we use such a simplistic aproach.
It's easy to forget how complicated modern chemistry is and various lines of paint can be worlds apart regardless of performance.
As for interior paints we've not been all that brand specific and have had good results as long as the top lines are used that are marketed to professionals rather than the consumer market beit Valspar, BM, etc.
Our carpet guys work around some of the best construction in Idaho, painted with a variety of professional finishes, and as we all know, especially with heavy stiff premium carpet, the base can get more than a few bruises in the process. The carpet guys have commented how impressed they are with the durability of our painted base with 100% acrylic Kelly Moore "Dura Poxy."
The paint also applies quite well with brush, airless or roller and sands well after a few days if a run or defect needs to be taken down. While it's great trim paint I like to use it for most surfaces to reduce scuffing during the finish stage and when clients actually move in.
For those without a sprayer, this paint works great for gloss finishes since it can be sanded flat inbetween coats with 400 grit and if a final coat of clear acrylic is used it's nearly as good as a sprayed finish.
Locally, service at the KM store is as good as a paint store can get so that alone would make it worthwhile, but I'm also a big fan of the paint.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"I have a problem lumping all products from a brand together and claiming they are all good or bad. "Actually that is one of the problems with forum like this.It has been a while since I looked a CR paint listing, but when I did they where very specific about what line and what color it was.Typically they will have two are 3 colors that they use and they will pick one product line from a manufacture.So without knowing the specific products that they used and also what characteristics that they used in rating then and how each rated these discussion don't have much meaning..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Actually that is one of the problems with forum like this.
Agreed.
Average building is quite easy. Good building is a much more complicated in terms of both technique and materials and great is even more so.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I can't speak to the specifics of your question - heck, ignorance never stopped me before :D - but I've a few thoughts for you to consider.
Without having anything particular against CR, their testing is "lab" testing. While they try to create tests that are relevant in the 'real world,' they don't always succeed. Also, while they try to reduce the unknown variables, there is only so much they can do. They approximate the 'real world' your contractor experiences.
As others have pointed out, SW makes many lines of paint, of differing quality ... from the Kilz at the 'low' end to Pratt & Lambert at the other extreme.
Local conditions can be a factor. For example, paint sold in California is typically made differently from the same brand sold elsewhere. Even if you follow the CR recommendations, there is no way of knowing if you are using the same paint.
But, IMO, you're missing the target, worrying about the brand of paint. From my experience, it is the preparation, application, and drying / curing conditions that matter- far more than the brand of paint.
Given a choice, I'd choose the worst paint, properly applied to a prepared surface ... over the best paint just slopped on.
Sure, your place is 'new,' so a lot of the prep work is eliminated. "Attention to detail" still matters, though.
I'd let the contractor do as he wishes. After all, he's the guy who has to stand behind his work. Let him use that which he is accustomed to.
The home centers have had very little success in getting contractor business away from the traditional supply houses. I suggest that there must be reasons for this .... perhaps the corner paint store know's its' stuff, after all.
Excellent post! And I agree.
I have used a few different brands (when customer-supplied), but my corner paint store sells Benjamin Moore and that is what I use. I also buy most of my painting supplies from them. Even if HD carries the same item for less, I buy from my corner paint store (which, by the way, is literally located on a corner).
My loyalty to the local store is because of their SERVICE. Anybody can sell a can of paint. It takes someone who cares and knows about their products to share their actual experiences and offer tips to make the job go smoother with better results. The number of times the local guys have helped me are far too numerous to mention. When I started, I would pick up some new information every time I went in there. That doesn't happen so much anymore, but they're still there when I need them.
I'd let the contractor do as he wishes. After all, he's the guy who has to stand behind his work. Let him use that which he is accustomed to.
What? Let a professional use their best judgement, established supplier relationships, and knowledge of the product without busting their chops or undermining their decisions? You must be kidding!
*chuckle*
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
According to consumer reports Wall mart paint rates better then SW.
I don't put any faith in the magazine. I don't see the pros painter at Wall Mart
or HD buying paint.
I must agree with those who say Consumer reports has to be taken with a grain of salt. Or anybody's report for that matter.
I have had good luck with behrs acrylic interior enamels in the light to mid color range. There reds are not the best. My new place interior is behr and ralph lauren. I personally don't like the RL it's coverage was not as good and it didn't stay mixed. I also used some Rl on my last place and I was having weird crazing problems with it painting our bedroom. I do agree that BM is still my if cost is no object paint but here you pay close to 2X what you do for behr and from my experience it isn't worth 2X in labor or long term benefits. Behr is the same as BM there are different lines their 100% acrylic enamels is all I will use in behr. Up here you can get SIkko as well it's not to bad. Glidden is garbage from what I have tried. General paint has some good lines. I guess all in all no one line is perfect. So I won't disagree that some behr may be crap but I like their enamels.
All in all BM is my #1 but Behr 100% acrylic enamels are pretty good and closer to the top then the bottom.
Well better go I have to sand floors in my old place today
Have a good monday
Pratt & Lambert
Pratt and Lambert is a Sherwin Williams company
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Pratt and Lambert was bought by Sherwin-Williams at the end of 1995. If your experience with P&L is since then its probably still valid.S-W owns a lot of paint companies (Dutch Boy, Pratt & Lambert, Martin-Senour, Dupli-Color, Krylon, Thompson's, Duron and Minwax are some of their brands). The only acquisition of theirs I have any first-hand experience with is Duron, which is a local (to me) company. In the several years that S-W has owned Duron they've made virtually no changes to the Duron stores or their product line. The only cross-over that I have seen is S-W stores now have a color pallete (Mt. Vernon) available that was once unique to the Duron stores.It seems odd, but it appears that S-W likes to let the companies its acquired to continue to operate mostly independently.
Edited 5/23/2007 1:11 pm ET by carpenterwannbe
Interesting that it took 84 posts before Duron got mentioned...my house is painted in it, inside and out. It's priced and covers well.We have a Duron store on one side of town and a SW on the other, both are completely different. Painters here are loyal to one or the other, and sometimes it seems to be caused by who gives 'em credit longer before cutting them off<G> Outside of the gates the trucks were unloadin',
The weather was hot, a-nearly 90 degrees.
The man standin' next to me, his head was exploding,
Well, I was prayin' the pieces wouldn't fall on me.
<<<Pratt and Lambert is a Sherwin Williams company>>>
Yeah, same good paint without the crappy service.
Just a homeowner, and I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I avoid Behr paint. Consumer reports is wrong - it is not a good paint for the money. It doesn't cover well and it doesn't adhere well. I've had much better luck with a local company (Kwal, formerly Kwal-Howell).
I've heard about CR's rating of Behr before, and all I can think is that their testers must have shut themselves in a small closet and breathed a lot of fumes before doing the test.
I only use Benjamin Moore Paint. A friend of mine builds high end luxury homes on old Niagara-on-the-Lake. It's the only stuff that he uses. Furthermore, the people at the Benjamin Moore stores actually know what they are talking about. If you're not sure about a painting issue, they will help you, and you will actually get the right info.
At the home depot, all you are likely to get is some college student that took a class at Home Depot University (the lunch room) on how to mix paint and couldn't give a rats butt what problem you have because he's too busy flurting with a cashier.
Sorry, i'm starting to rant. You get the picture though.
Dave
I wanted to amend my comments about my praises for Behr paint from Home Depot.
Several weeks ago I painted the exterior of my house with Behr lifetime warranty, exterior paint. I was very pleased with the paint and it seems to be thick, high quality, one coat coverage paint.
Yesterday and today I have been painting doors and woodwork with interior Behr paint and I want to say for the record that I don't like this paint and would not recommend it because it's too watery.
In summary, you really shouldn't use a broad brush to define paint as either good or bad because the manufacturer's best quality paint may be top of the line while their cheapest paint may not be suitable for painting a dog house.
^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces