According to the new issue of CR, The $23 Kilz paint at Walmart scored better than the $53 Benny Moore Aura. Their test show that more expensive paint is not better. Behr, has the best score, followed by Valsapar.
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"According to the new issue of CR, The $23 Kilz paint at Walmart scored better than the $53 Benny Moore Aura. Their test show that more expensive paint is not better. Behr, has the best score, followed by Valsapar."
Exactly how did they score it and what was the relative weight of the different tests?
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"Behr, has the best score"
that statement puts everything else they write in doubt.
gotta wonder what the criteria is for their test
They rate paint based on price verses performance. If all paint was priced the same, I think their ratings would be much different.
"They rate paint based on price verses performance"
Ah, so an opinion is involved! CR seems to always be biased in favor of cheep, and searches for a reason to justify their opinion.
My favorite was CD players, where they stated, "Since all CD players sound alike, we only evaluated the features available vs. the price". Talk about a self fufilling prophecy.
CR seems to have a hard time telling the difference between price and value.
For some reason, both HD and Lowes house brands scored high. Hmmmmmmm.......
I gotta say, Behr is just not that great.
Many folks call BS on CR anymore.
At least CR does some kind of testing. If you ask 10 painters which brand they like best you might get 10 answers. I have had fading issues with Ben Moore and I have price issues with Kelly Moore. Just because it costs more doesn't mean it performs better.
I usually just use Ace paints because that's what my lumber store carries and the price is reasonable. I haven't had any complaints.
If cost is the major factor it's hard to beat the big box stores. If it's fading, durability, one coat coverage or ease of application then some other brand might be best.
CR states one should avoid brand loyalty. Ever-changing formulations mean what you considered good last year may be different this year.
Those who disagree with Consumer reports fail to understand their goal..
First they accept no advertizing in order to be completely free of bias..
Second they test as scientifically as possible based on the most common criteria.
3rd since most libraries have copies of Consumer reports to check their judgement is available top anyone even nonsubscribers..
Many people who buy things and then check on ratings are forced to disagree with their findings in order to justify their purchase..
CR has found the big box brands to be better than the big names before. Baloney. Buy a can of each and see what you think.
Huh, is it that time of year again.
The only thing worse than lowe's paints is CR's opinions.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Well, that's fine, for those who believe CR and judge product quality by their reports.
Nothing wrong with Kilz products, but keep in mind that the coat laid down is about half as thick as the Aura.
You think that might be noticeable ten years from now?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Im with CR. They at least test the paints.
Some Sherwin Williams types are really expensive. I like the Behr.
CR's tests seem to follow the scnetific model. They do accelerated testing to see how exterior paints hold up over time.
They dont alway show a cheaper brand as better, sometimes its not the case.
In the same issue they show that a Hoover vaccum is better than the Kerby or Dyson. Both the latter are much more expensive. The Kerby might be a bit more reliable, but not enough to justify the large price.
"CR's tests seem to follow the scnetific model. They do accelerated testing to see how exterior paints hold up over time."So that is the only thing is how long it will weather?And if it last a week longer, but it take 5 coats to get coverage vs one of the others it is still best!EXACTLY what they test and how the weight different tests are important to know to make meaningfull use of the reports..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill,
I dont know exactly, but I know every paint recieved the same treament. They dident give one brand 5 coats and the other just one coat.
They tested for Hiding, Surface smoothness, staining, scrubbing, gloss change, sticking, mildew, and Fading. This was for interior paints only.
From CR website:"For interior latex paints, we judge "hiding power" (opacity), flow and leveling (how smooth the paint looks when applied), mar resistance (the ability to resist change when paint is scratched or rubbed against), and touch-up performance (the difference in gloss and color between paints applied with a brush and those applied with a roller). Our hiding chart (below right) consists of a 3x6-foot paper panel divided into three sections; each section contains six stripes ranging from pale gray to black. The point at which the stripe underneath is no longer visible is the point at which we note a paint's hiding power. We look at both one- and two-coat hiding, and have found that some paints are as good with one coat as others are with two. We also assess how easy the paint is to clean, how tough it is, and how water resistant it is.In our tests of deck stains, we look at dirt accumulation, mildew resistance, sun damage, and cracking. Mildew-resistance tests are conducted on white pine panels (below left) that are exposed outdoors, in a shady location facing due north in a vertical orientation that most favors mildew growth. Here, exposed panels have been placed over retain panels that haven't been exposed."
From CR website:"Most homeowners refinish their siding every six to 10 years. To find out which paints and stains will probably last that long on your house, we begin by spreading those finishes over untreated yellow-pine boards. Those boards tend to swell and crack, creating an especially tough test. Then we face the boards south at a 45-degree angle from vertical on the roof of our Yonkers, N.Y., headquarters. That intensifies the effects of sun and the elements on paints and stains, allowing each year of outdoor testing to equal roughly three years on your home. Here's what we check for:
Dirt buildup.
Color change
Mildew
Cracking"
Thanks for that.It proves exactly what I was getting at.So if someone painted their FC siding and expected to 25 years out of it then that test is meaningless.And a paint that might rack low because of that test might be ideal for use on FC..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill,
Whats important is that the testing is consistant. If the more expensive paint is really better, then is should have performed better. The tests show real world stuff that paint will experience in its life.
They just show that "you get what you pay for"isnt always true.
They just show that "you get what you pay for"isnt always true.
I agree.....but as with anything else in the building trades, everyone will have their own personal preferences. Whether it's materials, or tools. "Scientific studies", and "independent testing" don't mean squat when it comes to getting the job done.
Other than the Kilz primers, I am unfamiliar with their paints. Do they offer the hundreds of colors, tints and shades the more expensive manufacturers do?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Bull.
If you new what you were talking about, you wouldn't need CR to tell you what to say.
Sorry Slick, it's Bull.
My testing of paints and all the aspects of it, from buying, applying, and being the person that has to recoat says that CR is full of sh#t. I've been dealing with this medium for 30 years.
CR is wrong, period!
When lowes has the as# to engineer and distrubute a paint that is speced and approved for submarines, I'll give them another try. When HD or Lowes can engineer and distribute a protective coating to paint a corrugated metal roof - that works for fifteen years between recoat (tried and true) - I'll give them a try.
In the mean time I'm gonna' keep making and saving money by using real paint and protective coatings.
Every year CR lists it's money paid findings - And every year they show themselves to be wrong - And some suckers buy it...good luck...:( Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Jhole,
Do you have any scientific evidence that supports your findings on paint? CR test each paint in the same method. I dont think your testing follows the scientific method? does it?
Do you have all the equipement that CR does to test?
So are you only mad at them because they came up with a different result than what you want.
BTW, Sherman Wiliams Harmony was dead LAST for low luster interior paint test.
Here is another way to look at it:
I'm not sure what you do for a living, but let's say for example you are an architect. Would you check with consumer reports to see what CAD software you should buy and then make the purchase based solely on their recommendations? Probably not. Why? Because although they may have tried out a particular CAD package and may have actually even used it to draw a project, they haven't actually used in in the real world. If it were me selecting a CAD program, and CR rated them, I might read what they had to say and then also go and check with some architects and design professionals to see what they thought.
What? You are a computer programer? Are you gonna check with CR to see what C compiler is best or would that more just be a source of amusement?
So, it's not that CR doesn't have any valuable info, it's just that they are not the authority on anything in particular. It's just one source of information.
Regarding paint, I wonder if CR ever noticed that a particular brand caused problems with their sprayer after painting 10 or 15 houses? I wonder if CR ever had a callbacks because they were forced into doing a paint job when it was 45 degrees outside and now the paint isn't adhering well? I wonder if CR ever noticed how well a particular primer flows out on drywall finished to slightly different textures say a level 4 vs a level 5? I wonder if CR is concerned about the overall finish of a particular paint so that they can get that customer to refer them to other customers? I wonder if CR knows if Behr yellow tinted paint is more durable on Hardie plank than some particular Duron product? I wonder if CR ever noticed that a particular paint dries too quickly on their tools while they go to lunch?
Also, It's like a lot of other things. A particular manufacturer might make some good things and some not so good things. Like for example SW paint - my painter thinks that SW Exterior Superpaint is great and the interior Superpaint is not so good.
RE Sherman Wiliams Harmony I have my painter priming 3 houses starting today. If I remember, I'll ask him what he thinks of that paint. I bet he will agree. But regardless of what he says, I'll probably put more weight on his opinion than on CRs...
And BTW - some of these guys here at BT paint professionally, so you might want to take some notes to compare with CR's findings.
Come on JHOLE, don't hold back. Tell us all how you really feel about CR. You know it's not good to hold things in.
"The tests show real world stuff that paint will experience in its life."Only if your "real world" exactly matches their."If the more expensive paint is really better, then is should have performed better."Again define BETTER.The only assume that paint job needs to last 6 years.And they testing on how well it stays on pine with weather changes.That gives no clue about how it will do on FC over 20 years.And there is no BEST paint.Just as there is just about no BEST for any other product.There are a number of trade offs in any products.So will one paint might have been best under one particular set of test. That does not mean it would be best on completely different circumstances..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
" the testing is consistant"How do you know? Nothing repotted from CR indicates that
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Lot of subjective unscientific methodology there.There is an outfitr by the name of foresdtr products labs or some such that actually uses sc ientrific methodss to control amt applied, and exposure to UV, and measured aplied thickness etc, etc, etc
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!ame
US Forest Product Labs (Gov).But they don't comparative brand testing.More of testing of process and class of products.For example how long primer can be exposed before top coating.I have a book on exterior painting based on their work..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
>>>>>>>>
Nothing wrong with Kilz products, but keep in mind that the coat laid down is about half as thick as the Aura.
You think that might be noticeable ten years from now?
It was noticable 10 minutes after I laid down a coat on killz. Took twice as much as it should have.
ML
You can debate if a BMW is worth more than a Toyota Camry, BUT its a harder argumet to fight that the BMW is a better car. (no, I never had a BMW, but I did have a Camery, good car)
Same w/ paint, how MUCH better the paint really is, can be debated, but likely giving the paint MFG more money per gallon lets them hold quality when components used in making it rise, as well as better R&D (we hope)
Its a small part of the total paint job cost, ya painting a house and want 8 years out of it, or 1 year lease on apt?
Your arguement that BMW is superior to Toyota is flawed.. By what criteria do you make such a claim? (note I'm not saying either is superior I saying your statement is flawed because it failes to establish a criteria)
For example if you place a high value on the impression one car has over another you would be correct the BMW is superior.. If you place a high value on the cost of transportation then your statement is false because the lower purchase price lower insurance rates and lower operating costs of the Toyota make it superior.
The same applies to paint.
Tested scientifically Behr won out based on the criteria established..
Hi, well without looking at magazine test, I can safely assume the BMW brakes and handles and accelerates better than the Toyota, and these are the most common critera cars are judges against. Again, not a scientific test, but an assumption that having a bigger budget to build a car, CAN allow , but doies NOT guarantee a better car
By the way, I have Behr solid stain ion my house, painted only 2 times since 1993 and still looks good. It lasted the first time, so I went back to it.
The trim is SW Duration, done 2 years agos as I was not happy w/ the life of whatever I used last (dont recall).
I have used Behr interoir paints and was not impressed, and went back to BM,
"Tested scientifically Behr won out based on the criteria established.."oh...it was tested scientifically? I'm sold, I'll start using behr for everything...it's gotta be the best if scientists say so
Barry E-Remodeler
OK, what is the best interior primer, flat, eggshell, simi gloss, low VOC? Opinions?
I always use BIN 123 latex primer for everything.
Or does anyone really care? Just slap some color on the wall and sell the job!
OB
I will share my thoughts on this matter .
This is a junky statement from the get go.
Its not real life.
If you can cover a ceiling and its covered with paint that costs 2 dollars a gallon and it doesnt come off , theres your winner . If it takes 40 dollar paint to stay on a wall when nothing else will then theres your winner . If a man dies after he does the work before any one bitches about the work then hes a winner . Just a while back they were bitching at the people who donated housing because it was cheap.. For crying out loud . The best paint does the job for the job its gotta do for the best savings. Quality is somtimes a reversal of money spent wisely. Paint is in that corner .
Tim
Not to get to deep in this discussion but...
Years ago,last century when I was young, I used a method I saw my Dad and Grandpa use to test paint and settle an argument.
They were arguing over whose choice of paint was better.Grandpa painted 2 sheets of plywood flat black. The pushed the plys against a wall in the back of his garage. They each took a turn quickly rolling out the wall and ceiling over there respective plywood. They then looked at each others section painted and the mess spattered on the sheets.
Using this method a long time ago for myself I took a local brand, Anchor, and an expensive brand P&L and a bit less so BM.
Anchor spattered a lot, a real lot, even with the best of care. The wall dried leaving tell tale roller streaks. The BJ paint left about a quarter of the mess and some but not much in roller streaking. The P&L brand left little to no mess and no roller streaks, a very pretty wall.
I liked testing this way because what matters to me is that a paint is neat and flattens out well. I can explain the factors for this but I've been wordy enough.
Bottom line I use Anchor for the exterior and save a little money by using Benjamin Moore inside and my drops. Pratt & Lambert only if the client wants it.
Just A Guy With A Hammer
I wish I could still buy Pittsburgh Manor here, but it's gone. Best paint I've ever used in forty or so years of painting walls every few years as I moved during my military career and afterward. I think they sold out to Menards up here in Wisconsin, and the one supplier of Manor went to commercial (cheap) paint, the five gallon at a time variety. I'll try the Behr once, since I won't hold that against HD, though I do a lot of other things, like appliances. They don't handle their appliances -- they're outsourced -- so they claim no responsibility if it takes weeks to get one of theirs. Stay local for that, and I don't mean Best Buy or Sears -- just as bad.
CR should have some good pro painters actually use the products on some apartment complexes, inside and out. The pros can tell them more in a day of using the product than all of their testing.
Then they should have the painters recheck the paint annually for a few years...real world.
I'm not a painter, but I tried Behr and found that it did not flow well when cutting with a brush, nor did it cover well.
Locally, I found the paint branded Farm & Fleet (made by Valspar) to be the best value.
Behr.. It Behrly covers!!!!!
They test for much of the same things that the pros look for in a good paint. I believe for exterior paints and stains they do actually apply them to wood and FC and let them weather. Then check witch last longer, ect.
There test are ver consistant so no one brand is given special treatment over another.
I'll ask again....does Kilz offer the hundreds of color and shade choices of the more expensive brands?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
A simple google brings up a DIY chat dated '06 about this testing.
http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/consumer-reports-vs-painters-opinion-exterior-paints-2751/
Where a poster refers the questioner to a previous set of post in '05.
http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/exterior-paint-185/
Never ending subject.
Just A Guy With A Hammer
Keep in mind that opinions are like fingers: most folks have a couple handfulls of them - and CR is no different.
I have a lot of trouble calling CR tests "scientific," or accepting claims that they use the "scientific method." Far too many of their criteria are subjective, the weighting of criteria is most certainly subjective, and I see no documentation that any of their tests are repeated by unrealted parties, documenting that the results are independent of the party doing the tests.
I'll give them credit for trying ... but no cigar.
I do notice one effect from reading CR .... without fail, the articles seem to encourage me to buy the various products that they review. That is, after reading about some sort of widget that I've never even heard of before, I feel an urge to go out and get one. Why, the magazine has just made clear to me just how useful that widget might be!
In a very real sense, CR is nothing but advertising - though in an indirect manner. It's very existance seems to assume that you will, regularly, be purchasing new appliances.
Now ... as for the paint tests ... their methods, and criteria, seem to have changed over the years. To give credit to those who paint for a living, CR's staff are (at best) talented amateurs, and may not have the skills, experience, or equipment that a real painter has. In that regard, their results probably more closely match the efforts of your typical homeowner.
Probably the biggest weakness to the CR results is that they completely ignore surface preparation and old surfaces in their testing. Everything is clean, new, and perfect. Maybe their test results are good - but any painter will tell you that the actual paint is the least important part of a paint job. It's like rating cars based upon cupholders.
Make me choose between a teen-ager with the best paint ... and a pro with the cheapest ... and I'll take the pro every time.
For those wishing to paint for the first time ... say, their house .... I suggest that they concentrate on the prep work first. Then, when the time comes to paint, buy ONE gallon of your first choice. If you're happy with the results, buy more. If you're not, try another brand.
"Back in the day," we were painting our living room when we ran out of paint. We were using the 'best' line from a major retailer, in those pre-box-store days. A neighbor had a matching gallon of a paint whose ad campaign said "you can cut it with a knife." Though CR later ridiculed the ad as pure showmanship, the fact is that the "thick" paint covered better, applied better, spattered hardly at all .... and covered nearly three times as much wall!
So, there can be a very real difference between paints. In my experience, you can't test every possible variation yourself; you need to rely upon the judgement of others, who are in a position to know. In practice, this means buying your paint from a supply house that caters to professionals. There are reasons the pros don't line up at the box stores every morning.