Search the forums

Loading

Built-in Banquet seating with storage

madmadscientist's picture

Hello All,


I originally posted this over on the knotts side but no one there seems interested in this so maybe this is the better place to post this.  


I would like to solicit ideas from y'all on a built-in banquet seating project that SWMBO has just green lighted.  Please see the attached pic oakdining1 so that we are talking about the same thing. 


  I want to do a three sided built-in banquet with lift up seats for storage of our not-super-often-used big kitchen gadgets.


The breakfast nook is ~8.5 by5.5' and looks like this (please see attached kitchen02.jpg.) I want to fill the three walls with the seating and hopefully be able to reuse the table. 


I am not an official fine woodworker so my skills and tools are going to be limited.  I am thinking that I would like to make the frame out of regular dimensional lumber held together with glue and pocket screws (which I have experience with).  I would then like to face the banquet with some nice maple and stain it to match the cabinets.


Taking into consideration that the main tools I have to do this with are only a SCMS, a tablesaw (yet to be purchased but I did get the okay), a circular saw, a router and the super pocket hole kit (what ever the heck its called).  What are folks thoughts on this idea. 


Any pointers or points to some useful plans would be greatly appreciated.


  thanks,


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #19 of 53)

Hi Doug and thanks for replying.


Your drawing looks good. The flip forward back is clever.


Thanks SWMBO saw it on my pencil sketch and got really excited about it.  She wants somewhere to put the serving trays and cookie sheets and stuff.


I wouldn't build this seating arrangement to accommodate your table, you can always get/make another table.


I agree though if it works out that I could magically keep the table I wouldn't mind it matches the rest of the kitchen.  We were planning on cutting the legs off of it and installing  some sort of pedestal base instead.


You don't need to over think the dimensions on this project, others have done this for many years. Take advantage of the info out their.


I don't think I'm over thinking the dim.  I built the model to fit the space of the nook  The CAD program makes slapping dim on easy and several folks were asking for them so....


I like the idea of one flip up seat and one big pull out drawer. You do know that you can get drawer guides up to 5' in length don't you? You'd really be able to make a big drawer!


I can only use the pull out drawer on the one side because there is existing cabinets in the way on the other side.  I am planning on having the flip out seat backs on both short sides.  I will have lift up seats on the one short side and along the back also.


I was thinking about the big sturdy pull out drawer full of heavy appliances and had another crazy thought.  What if I set the drawer on some sort of rollers-wheels-casters and install some sort of guides on the bench so that I could roll the drawer in and out?  This might be easier for a novice than installed some 5' slides.  That drawer can only be ~4' because it will bash into some pre-existing cabinets.


My search of bookstores was not so fruitfull. Stanely has a book on built-ins that has one bench with flip up seat but I wasn't going to buy a $20 book for 4 useful pages (not yet anyways).


I would also like a way to hinge everything invisibly.  I know that piano hinges would be pretty standard but I just think that well.. they are ugly...


 


 


 


 


 


 


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #20 of 53)

Daniel


Stinger(BT'er) posted some hinges for something like this not to long back, I'll see if I can find the post.


For this long drawer, how often do you think you'll be accessing the contents?


I built a tool box for my truck with roll out drawers, six footers, they are on simple home made rollers. I'll take some pix of them tomorrow, very simple and cheep. I open and close the drawers on the truck several times a day and they are loaded down with maybe 200 lbs of tool per box.


I also have a top to the box that is 6'6" and its on a full extension drawer guide that's rated for 500 lbs. Of course it opens and closes as well as any full extension guide.


You have to think about who will be opening and closing the drawer the most and how well it will work.  Certainly doable if you go the homemade route.


Doug

(post #68921, reply #25 of 53)

Hi Doug,


For this long drawer, how often do you think you'll be accessing the contents? You have to think about who will be opening and closing the drawer the most and how well it will work.  Certainly doable if you go the homemade route.


Myself and SWMBO will be using the drawer probably not super often. We do love our breadmaker (take that VaTom) and use it often but the function of it would be to store the kitchen appliances some used more than others but none used every day.


 


 


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #27 of 53)

We do love our breadmaker (take that VaTom)


Did I disparage them?  LOL  Well, probably....  But did we really discuss bread?  I know I'm prejudiced. (Come on over, I'll convert you.)


Anyhow, the hinges that I was thinking about were Soss.  My bench seat was a slab off the saw mill.  That was a hickory, once growing here.


I built a large kitchen, so we could afford a storage-less bench.  And we have only one dining table, which the bench gets moved to with company. 


PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

PAHS works.  Bury it.

(post #68921, reply #26 of 53)

Depending on how you orient your bracing inside, you should be able to use European type hinges and make everything invisible.

I just finished (well 80% done is finished in my book...) a booth/banquet in my casa. It looks good. I wish I had done some things differently but overall, I'm pleased.

I'll try and post a few pictures and a lengthier discussion tonight when I'm on Ted-time.

I will say this:
* I agree about building with ply. (I used birch ply and dimensional lumber and lots of biscuits.)
* My booth sits on a frame/base which is less deep than the booth. This makes it much more comfortable;
* The seat overhangs the case -- also adds comfort;

(post #68921, reply #28 of 53)

I just finished (well 80% done is finished in my book...) a booth/banquet in my casa. It looks good. I wish I had done some things differently but overall, I'm pleased.


I'll try and post a few pictures and a lengthier discussion tonight when I'm on Ted-time.


That would be much apprecitated


thanks,


 


 


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #32 of 53)

Attached is a rough drawing and notes on the booth/banquet I built/am building.

On your flip forward seat back: I would move the hinge to the top. As designed I could see that thing braining a little kid.

I can't find my earlier post so I will add the following again:
* I like that my seat overhangs my base, much more comfortable.
* the kick at the bottom makes sliding in easier.
* one of the few times I used a gloss finish (see above...)

I attached a pdf (not a plan just a rough idea.) Thought it might help.

Good luck.

(To the pros out there: I'm a desk jockey so be gentle.)

(post #68921, reply #36 of 53)

On your flip forward seat back: I would move the hinge to the top. As designed I could see that thing braining a little kid.


That's a good point.  I think it would be more functional hinged from the bottom.  Maybe some sort of travel stop so it can't slam all the way down and a catch that takes a decent amount of force to get it open??


 


 


 


 


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #41 of 53)

or put a chain on it so it can't drop more than 25 degrees or so...

(post #68921, reply #44 of 53)

put a chain on it


Which is better than a lid stay, especially if you make it so the chain can be "undone" (with a considered effort).


Now, normally, banquettes wind up with enough stuff on them, that opening them more than 15º or so when bottom-hinged is a bit of a chore anyway.  My experience is that a speed-decreasing 'closer' is more needed around small fingers than an opening limiter.


Oh, I didn't say before, but more moving panels are better.  Somewhere between 14 to 20" wide works out much better--at least that's what I've found.


Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I may not be able to help you Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

(post #68921, reply #48 of 53)

Now, normally, banquettes wind up with enough stuff on them, that opening them more than 15º or so when bottom-hinged is a bit of a chore anyway.  My experience is that a speed-decreasing 'closer' is more needed around small fingers than an opening limiter.


I'm thinking that the lift up seat bottom and pivot forward seatback would both need soft closing devices with the chain on the seatback to limit travel.


 


 


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #21 of 53)

Just a quick thought...  Instead of hinging the one lid at the back of the seat, you did it on the end toward the back of the seating area, you could lift one long lid from the accesible end while not being impeded by the table itself.

(post #68921, reply #23 of 53)

Just a quick thought...  Instead of hinging the one lid at the back of the seat, you did it on the end toward the back of the seating area, you could lift one long lid from the accesible end while not being impeded by the table itself.


I had to read that like three times before I understood what you were saying.  Huh, that could work but I would be worried about kids getting not being able to lift it up.  It would have to have some sort of soft close mechinisim so that it would not slam down on any little fingers.


 


 


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #22 of 53)

Hi Daniel, I'd looked at your drawings.  Hadn't mentioned anything 'cause they look good to me.  Well, I'd make one very small change.  4" at the top of the back seems large, depending on how you treat the cap.  If it's solid wood overlaying both backs, that's fine.  If it's 4" plus the hinged back, kinda large.


You want totally concealed hinges?  I suggested piano for ease of installation and maintenance, but beautiful they're not.  Having a senior moment here, no brand name presently available, but there are barrel hinges that would be totally concealed.  The drawback is the solid stock necessary at the seat-back corner for seating the hinges.  To me, this would be one of those judgement calls, largely dependent on the pocket depth of the client.  A whole lot more work than piano hinges which would work fine with a thin solid strip edgebanded to your plywood.


Curved backs certainly would add complexity.  There are a couple of good ways to accomplish them.  Somewhere in here we get to your skill level and the probability that the project finally reaches completion.  Not to suggest that you shouldn't do a curved back, your call, but I would caution you to only moderately overstep your current skills.  A challenge is good, only as long as you succeed.


Strong recommendation to mock-up a bench with your chosen dimensions, prior to cutting the sheet goods.  Pull up a table and see how it feels.


Just for fun, as long as it's your thread anyhow, I'll attach a photo of a very comfortable bench that lives here.  The seat is modestly scuplted, as is the minimal back.  No application that I see for your project. 


 


PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

PAHS works.  Bury it.

PreviewAttachmentSize
Bench_2.jpg
Bench_2.jpg56.2 KB

(post #68921, reply #24 of 53)

Hello VaTom,


I'd looked at your drawings.  Hadn't mentioned anything 'cause they look good to me.  Well, I'd make one very small change.  4" at the top of the back seems large, depending on how you treat the cap.  If it's solid wood overlaying both backs, that's fine.  If it's 4" plus the hinged back, kinda large.


It would be 4" including the back not plus the back.  We were thinking that we needed it so that when people leaned their heads back they would not immediately smack the wall.


You want totally concealed hinges?  I suggested piano for ease of installation and maintenance, but beautiful they're not.  Having a senior moment here, no brand name presently available, but there are barrel hinges that would be totally concealed.  The drawback is the solid stock necessary at the seat-back corner for seating the hinges.  To me, this would be one of those judgement calls, largely dependent on the pocket depth of the client.  A whole lot more work than piano hinges which would work fine with a thin solid strip edgebanded to your plywood.


I found an old Rockler Cat that had the big beefy barrel hinges of which you speak looks to me like they should work.  For me the time is less important because I'm doing the work.


Curved backs certainly would add complexity.  There are a couple of good ways to accomplish them.  Somewhere in here we get to your skill level and the probability that the project finally reaches completion.  Not to suggest that you shouldn't do a curved back, your call, but I would caution you to only moderately overstep your current skills.  A challenge is good, only as long as you succeed.


Yep I agree.  Some folks call that project creep. Where what starts out as a simple project keeps having more and more features put on till it becomes impossible for it to get done.  I'm hoping to avoid this-the pull out drawer and flip forward seat backs are not optional now but curvy seats and seatbacks probably are.


Just for fun, as long as it's your thread anyhow, I'll attach a photo of a very comfortable bench that lives here.  The seat is modestly sculpted, as is the minimal back.  No application that I see for your project. 


That's a pretty fun looking bench.  Its definitely got that rustic hunting cabin look to it.


Will do on the mock up.


thanks again for the help.


 


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #34 of 53)

Looks good.  My only bias is personal from having lived with hinged seats.  It's such a huge operation to get every thing off the seat bottoms (and what you want will always be under the greatest amount of "stuff") that either nothing is stored there, or it's done without.


So, I always try to plead a case for all drawers on high quality full extension guides.  Even if you have to crawl under the table to get to the back of the "u," being able to pull the drawers out will be easier than climbing over/through the table to tip the seats up.


Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I may not be able to help you Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

(post #68921, reply #38 of 53)

Looks good.  My only bias is personal from having lived with hinged seats.  It's such a huge operation to get every thing off the seat bottoms (and what you want will always be under the greatest amount of "stuff") that either nothing is stored there, or it's done without.


I see what you are saying.  I don't think the plan is now to store anything that gets used everyday.  The pull out appliance drawer will probably get the most work followed by the flip forward seatback.


 


 


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #39 of 53)

Hey Daniel, I've done several of these for clients, and I'm stealing that hinged back, thanks<G>

Lot of good ideas here, thought I'd toss in a few more

I did the first one with flip up seats at the client's request. They never use them, well hardly ever, just because they are a pain to get into.

I think cushions are a must, besides eating, it's also a place to hang out.

A toe kick is good, but angled fronts are even better.

Measurements are important. You've got to be able to slide under the table...if it's got an apron, that can make a difference. Relaxed seating is different than a formal dining room chair, so measure stuff you feel comfortable in...built-ins are a [CUTE LITTLE PUPPY] to un-build<G>

What in the gosh darn golly have you done to Rez?

www.tvwsolar.com

The Village Woodworks, Inc

Chapel Hill, NC

 

We'll have a kid Or maybe we'll rent one He's got to be straight We don't want a bent one He'll drink his baby brew From a big brass cup Someday he may be president If things loosen up

(post #68921, reply #45 of 53)

Hello BiteMe and thanks for replying.


Hey Daniel, I've done several of these for clients, and I'm stealing that hinged back, thanks<G>


No problem, just send me my licenseing fee with every unit you build...But seriously if you can figure out a good way to do it I would love to see a sketch.  If you have any pics of your previous efforts and could post them that would help me out extremely.


A toe kick is good, but angled fronts are even better.


I would love to see a pic of that.  Do you think that with the angled fronts that you do not need the toe kick? Or would both be better?


Measurements are important. You've got to be able to slide under the table...if it's got an apron, that can make a difference. Relaxed seating is different than a formal dining room chair, so measure stuff you feel comfortable in...built-ins are a [CUTE LITTLE PUPPY] to un-build<G>


Point taken I'll look into cushions.  Do you think that just the cushions on the seat area is enough?  Yea, if I have to un-build them SWMBO will kill me!!


 


 


 


 


 


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #49 of 53)

just one minor detail that may have already been covered ...


along the lines of a toe kick area ...


 


with low drawers ... toe kick or no ... it's better to have the drawer elevated a bit off the floor. I've seen the no-kick detail with low drawers ... and a slightly sloping floor makes for big problems.


either go with a toe kick to lift the whole box or make sure you raise the drawer a coupla inches.


 


Jeff


    Buck Construction


 Artistry In Carpentry


     Pittsburgh Pa

    Buck Construction

 Artistry In Carpentry

     Pittsburgh Pa

(post #68921, reply #51 of 53)

hey Dan, just got around to measuring for you.

Sorry for the delay.

Surprise birthday party this past weekend (for SIL) was the unveiling of the booth. Rave reviews.

At one point there were 8 people sitting at it eating.

In NYC that kind of an option is huge!

Good luck.

(post #68921, reply #52 of 53)

Hello Ted,


Where there going to be measurements in this email or are you refering to an older email??


Daniel Neuman


Oakland CA


Crazy Home Owner

The MadMadScientist

Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA.  Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/ 

Oakland CA 

Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer

(post #68921, reply #53 of 53)

sorry, I thought I attached.

Here we go... Sorry.