What is the best and most civil way to discourage unskilled homeowners from wanting to help in remodel jobs. I just spent an extra day on a bath remodel because the homeowner “just had to help” and I had to walk him through even the most basic tasks.
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Contract Change order:
10% surcharge if you supply any material
20% surcharge if you watch
30% surcharge if you talk
40% surcharge if you help
Honesty truly is the best policy. You wouldnt ask to help him fill a bicusped were he a dentist. Nor would you ask to give him a hand with his next board meeting. This is your profession, your career, your job. Just because every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he can swing a hammer doesnt mean you have to allow it. Be up front and honest about the situation. His "helping" will be much more of a hinderence. You need to finish his job so you can move on to the next one. And if hes a freind of yours...well theres your first mistake.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Honesty definitely is the best policy, but tact can smooth over the ruffled feathers. Simply tell him your insurance won't cover him and you can't take the chance of him getting injured. This is highly dangerous work isnt it?
Be carefull here.
It may be the homeowners dream. He may be testing you on this little project to see how you'll work on his big one. Whatever, you need to explain that if his goal is to lower costs the best thing he can do is support work, shag for parts fix lunch etc. If he wants to get his hands dirty you need to explain that his helping will raise your bid. Give him a task he is sure to fail at or perform poorly and then during the "break" while your guys correct his errors. explain that things are a lot harder than they look and he can best help at things he's skilled at. Do it like it was your own mother, with respect and care.........
I still say: "Don't go there". And definitely don't patronize your client. Honesty with tact is the best. You are a professional, act that way. That "working client" approach road is fraught with peril my friend. If the client or friend MUST help then by all means have him or her do the daily site clean up.
I tell 'em a few stories about the times when folks have "helped me" and it ended up costing them more money. Sometimes I disguise the stories as "I heard about this homeowner ..."
They get the hint - usually
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 6/18/2002 12:22:05 AM ET by piffin
not bad, pif. You gotta give em an out! Ego's can be involved.
Piffin,
I really need you to come and talk to the home owners on our current remodel.
The husband wants to sand and finish the 2000 # of oak flooring we are putting in!!!
He says he has done it before and "enjoys" it. Red Flag!!!
I don't think the boss has really made an effort to talk him out of it.
I hate to even think of the hassles this could/will cause. I am not sure that he realizes that he will be holding up all the interior work.
HHHHEEEELLLLPPPP!!!
Our hardwood floor man, who will install the oak, just laughed and said "For 4$ a foot I will come and fix it when he is done".
If I don't post for a while it will be because I have finally gone off the deep end.
Wish me well in my recovery!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
mr T,
Sounds like one I had that wanted to set the tile on her kitchen countertop. The ones to watch out for are the ones that 'have already done it lots'. This woman said that she had owned a design store and that she had installed lots of tile. Then she went to HD - you know, the big orange warejhouse? - for a refresher course and to get materials. Red lights came on for me.
So I stood aside on the day she was going to start and first thing she began to do was mix mud - no layout, no open boxes of tile, no tape measure, cutter still in garage, base not sealed...
I tactfully stepped in and offered a suggestion or two (couldn't have her messing up my whole kitchen job now could I?) and soon I was doing the work with her handing me tiles. I even let her wash down the grout when it was time, while her husband and I had a couple beers.
I turned out that she had a partner in the interior design business that she had been involved in as a salesperson. He was the one who knew a little about tile setting.
Alls well that ends well...
Good luck!
And be ready to patch the walls about six or seven inches off the floors on that oak job
;>)
Excellence is its own reward!
You insinuating that the sander might get away from him? How about a first timer with the buffer, thats always good for a laugh!
like a carnie rideExcellence is its own reward!
And how many carpenters here would do the floor sanding and finishing (well, I know SOME would)? It just makes more sense to have a floor guy do that. In my experience, carpentry already involves wearing many hats, and some of the work really does need to be done by those who wear the same hat every day.
Ken Hill
I recently had Laurel and Hardy on my job. They were suppose to be doing the framing while I dug all the trenches for pipes, etc. Occasionally I would check in on them and ask a few why's and offer suggestions.
Well, their boss informed me that they didn't care for my "questioning their work". He preferred to stick his neck out for them saying he trusted that they knew what they were doing. Ironically, all the things I was concerned about got flagged by the inspector, including cross ties on some of the rafters that came loose when I leaned a ladder against them. They also screwed up several times like converting 20 foot 2x8s to 12 footers, that hurt.
So now I'm out there framing myself. I check my books and read messages here since I haven't done it enough to have it all memorized. But if I make a mistake at least it didn't cost me anything except a board or two and some time. In fact, today I forgot to frame in a window. Oh well, another challenge on how to get it back in.
But hey, don't forget, all you guys didn't know this stuff right out of the womb either! LOL
Steve
Steve,
Yes sometimes the you have to work with (or for) the very people that need to be discouraged about doing the work they can't handle.
It constantly amazes me that there are so many people in the trades that don't even make an effort to further their skills. And they always wonder why they are only making 7-8 $ an hour.
And then there are the contractors who think that since they are the boss, that this makes them all-knowing and infallible. Definitely the Peter-Principle was born in the construction industry.
One thing about incompetant tradesman tho. Eventually some one like us has to fix thier work. Kind of job security, but also a pain in the arse!
Mr T.
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
"But hey, don't forget, all you guys didn't know this stuff right out of the womb either! LOL" I did. ;)
I'm honest with my clients on this and all work issues. Most of them respect me for it. The rest I don't work for.
- WebTrooper -
"Stupid is as stupid does"
Ken, I rented a floor sander once to do my dining room and kitchen. Picked the machine up at the end of the day, figuring I'd have it knocked by 10 or 11 that night. Well, no. I went to bed with the job unfinished at about 2 AM. Seven thirty next morning, instead of returning the sander, I was back at the rental yard for more paper and to tell them I'd need the machines for that day, too. I finally returned them at about 4 that afternoon. The same guy waited on me who'd sold me the sandpaper in the morning. He said I looked so bad when I came in then, he'd decided not to charge me for the day's rental.
I'll do almost anything construction related, and do it well, but I'll never sand another floor <G>.Andy Engel, The Accidental Forum moderator
If it makes you feel any better, a while back I decided to sand the floor in my office to refinish it. You would think I would know better, since I watch my floor guy do it all the time. You would really think I would know better than to figure I could do it with my Bosch 4x24 belt sander. "Hey, it's a small room, only about 11'x12', how hard could it be?"
Needless to say, it was a bad idea. It came out well, but that's the last time I try that.
I tried that once on a room 28' by about 8'
Couldn't get a floor guy for two weeks and the owner announced he was moving in in three days. I had four guys with belt sanders and orbitals sanding in that little room all day, put down a coat that night, another the next morning and evening fro three total. I'm sure it was still a gel state when they arrived.Excellence is its own reward!
I did a time and materials kitchen last winter for a guy who wanted to save some money by doing some of the work himself. I'd tell him specifically what needed done and how. I showed him where to nail off a post warning him not to drive a 16d nail through an electrical wire. You guessed it, he nailed right where I told him NOT to. He had a rotozip that cost him at least 1k in damage to his sheetrock. He had a kid who couldn't stay the hell out of the way when I was tiling his floor and his dog was constantly underfoot. If I'd have bid it out, I'd have billed him all the extras where I lost time but since it was hourly, I just laughed it all off and told him he wasn't saving any money trying to help. He continued 'helping' though and I was quite happy to walk away from that job when it was done. If a homeowner wants to help, they can haul trash, clean the job site each day, paint, pull nails, run for materials, hold the other end of a board, bake chocolate chip cookies, and generally stay the hell out of my way. I usually inform them with humor but occasionally have to step outside for a smoke when the humor leaves me. Otherwise, it's one of those 'coddle them through' situations that generally doesn't hurt too much and gives them a sense of accomplishment for a surcharge. If they want to pay, I'll let them help. If not, I ask as gently as possible for them to allow me the pleasure of doing their job for them.
Piffin,
Just ran into HO at the convenience store. He said he was giving up floor sanding!
I didn't have the heart to ask how bad it was.
Cabinets are coming tomorrow AM,
Boss is on Vacation all week,but he left me a sheet to fill out that lists my goals for the week, and my daily progress towards them, and any reasons for not meeting them.
This is going to be an interesting week!
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Rude works. Sometimes necessary, sometimes nothing else will do. Just flat out tell him he is driving you nuts, slowing you down and causing you to screw up.
It's hard to tell someone to go away or you can't work, but one of you is going to have to leave. Joe H
Jaybird -
I used "Do it once by doing it right" under my signature in a previous post, different thread. Didn't mean to steal your logo. Don't hate me, Okay?
- WebTrooper -
"Do it once by doi.... oops. "
If more people had the "do it right the first time " attitude we`d all be better off!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Actually, we'd be out of work. ;)
~ WebTrooper ~
"If it ain't broke, I can fix that."
Well, here it is thursday, the boss is on vacay the floor is butchered and I am doing the outside work untill the real floor man can get here and clean up the mess!
HO sanded the oak and the stained it late at night and woke the next day to a blotchy mess! he then attempted to sand of the stain and came to the realization the he should leave it to the pros. Actually I can't blame him, he is just trying to make his wife happy. She wouldn't hear of any one trying to talk him out of it.
The cabinets are stacked in the garage and they have signed a 3600$ change order. OUCH!
Can't wait for the Monday meeting when pointy haired boss asks if the cabinets are ready for a templat for Corian! I will try my best to keep a straight face, I do like this job, most of the time.
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
As a HO that most of his own stuff I wish more HO's would know where to draw the line. Floors, plumbing and major electrical are out for me......everything else is fair game. The way I look at it.....the $ saved by doing a floor myself isn't worth risking the $ and time it will take to fix it if I "F" it all up. Therefore, save money elsewhere and let the pros earn their money.
First time floor jobs are bound to make good stories.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
As an HO I have learned my limits. Framing, tile, supply piping, trim no problem. My wife and I hung 140 sheets of 5/8" x 10" gyp.bd. in our second floor renovation. Saved a couple of grand (vaulted ceilings, arches, etc.). I will not do that again. My time also has value. Just got a $350 quote to install a fence (labor only) and $650 for materials. I was going to build and install the fence. My materail costs were $550 but my labor (+renting a post hole digger) would have been around $1000 (time off of work and I really did not want to do it). Tried sanding a floor once but the rental yard machine was so out of wack that it made the job a real pain and I did not get any satisfaction that I did it.
My advise is do what you have the skills for and what you enjoy doing.
Exactly. I have seen a few of my neighbors/friends just get in the way of a contractor all day and wind up paying more than if they just sat with a beer and watched.
Like you said there are certain things that I can do well and other just aren't worth the time and potential screw-up.
It sounds like more HO's should learn to do the same.
SJKnow a little about alot and alot about little.
I have to agree that a lot of homeowners should go sit and have a beer (or valium) and get out of the way. In fact, before someone sells a house there should be a full inspection - there's some scary work with wiring, plumbing, framing, etc. People have no idea what kind of dangers they are buying.
HOWEVER, after reading FHB for several years and reading and seeing some of the great things posted on this forum, my expectations have risen greatly, not only of myself but anyone I would hire. The problem is finding someone who has that desire to do great work let alone knows how. And if you do find them they already have the work and are getting the big bucks.
I am definitely an amatuer, but I would rather fix my own screw ups than those of someone I just paid.
Steve
Agreed.
Like I said some things cost to much for me to screw up so those go right to the pros. But installing windows, siding, building my porch and deck etc. Those are interesting projects that I enjoyed doing myself. Which makes me really wonder about that post in the picture gallery with the covered deck framing that looks like it was framed during an earthquake.
I haven't really offered much help other than carrying out trash etc. to the contractors I have brought in. If I'm paying them, they can do the work....although I always worry about the trash etc. I want my house clean and I have no problem doing that piece myself while they are doing the work.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
I know you're near me in Maine.
Whereabouts this is?
email me if this is too sensitive.Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I was in ME for 8 years, Bowdoinham to be exact. Just north of Topsham. bout 20 min. nor of LL Bean.
Now I am a New yorker again. Elmira right in the middle of the fingerlakes kind of.
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
I was raised in western NY. My great grandfather had a cabin on Honeyoye Lake. He died there whern he was 87. Fell through the ice while icefishing. They found his handsome face in the spring.Excellence is its own reward!
Piff,
I was raised in Syracuse, I worked in and around Rochester for a few years. Lived in South Lima for a while. Honyeoye Lake is quite nice from what I remember!
FIL has a place on Cayuga. 1 hour drive just close enough to enjoy. BIL & friends put on a Killer pig roast every summmer. Do most of my Kayaking there.
Upstate NY is nice, if we could just secede from the city and LI maybe the taxes could go down.
Enjoy Maine!
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
When the homeowner "offers to help" I typically get out of it by saying. I'll have to charge more. Even though they laugh and know I'm joking, they get the point.
You could tell him/her that your not comfortable telling the customer what to do and don't wish to jeopardize your relationship. If they wish to get there hands dirty in the job try to leave a task such as painting that can be done after your finished.
I usually don't mind working with customers, but only on "time & materials" jobs. It's their home, after all. And it's good for them to see how things are done, how carefully we work
I have a clause in my "bid" contracts that limits civilian access to the jobsite during working hours. No way I'm giving them a bid, without knowing what the job entails - like fixing their work or teaching them instead of focussing on my work.
Tell him the truth, Plus the Insurance carrier would freak.
Truth works good. nuff said
Tim Mooney
Some things require skill and experience, and have a long learning curve. But there are others that are fairly easy to learn, but unpleasant to do. How about you design the HVAC system and install the FAU, but use me to crawl thru the attic and crawl space putting in ducts and wires? If you can work with a new employee, can you find a way to use me?
-- J.S.
I'll enter this thread as unskilled help :-)
I watch the job and offer my assistance whenever I can, which usually included providing drinks, beer, cleanup, etc. Not all help is negative! Also, often it makes the difference in preventing a callback - if I was there when they put in X, I could have told them to place it centered rather than offset, or reminded them that is what myself and the company owner discussed and is in the contract.
Also, not all of us are unskilled. I worked a few years in new construction, and have done extensive renovations on my own. However, I'm not going to put a roof on by myself; clearly a contractor could do it in less time, and more cost effectively, than I could alone when I calculate my lost time and wages from current job. But I definitely know how it should be done, and could do it all myself.
I'm sure this is not the case all the time, but keep it in mind. The "homeowner" may not be someone who watched "Hometime" one afternoon and thinks he can frame an addition, but someone who has actually done that many times and might be able to offer real help. I would pay a bit more for someone to work with me!