This question should probably go direct to cloud hidden, but the rest of you may be able to help me understand. Is it possible to use the techniques that are used to build the thin concrete domes, to build a more rectangular home that would better fit in to a “normal neighborhood” type of setting. There is currently a Hurricane headed in our direction, that is expected to miss by 100 miles or so, but it got me to thinking that I would be more relaxed if I was covered by concrete. I don’t think that the home owners association would ever allow a dome though, as they even complain about types of roofing and siding. So could you do square corners, or at least something close enough to pass for almost average. I am sure that some of the strength, or maybe all of it, comes from the shape, but what could be done to normalize your not so normal homes? Marketing would be easier, but I am guessing that the building process would be tough. Ideas, or just dreams? The TV adds tell me that if I can dream it, it can be, so can it?
OK Cloud, how about a big ol book on Domes, you must have enough good pictures to make us all part with some cash, and a little education in the back for those of us that are curious enough to read such a thing.
Dan
Replies
Martin Iorns has a great method for thin shell flat concrete panels, later assembled into structures. This is a group dedicated to thin shell concrete: http://www.ferrocement.net/list.htm
Archives available without membership but there is no search function so you'll have to Google it or read the whole thing. High velocity projectiles and earthquake resistance are well covered. Building it is no dream. Many have/are. Shape of buildings is everything from hobbit to rectilinear.
A guy N. of Phoenix is planning, possibly constructing by now, 30' walls to be stood up on piers. Primary aim is low cost construction. Material costs of $4/ sq ft has been bandied around. You've missed the summer seminars near Montrose, Colo., but there's a huge amount of information available. And members coast to coast plus a small international following.
Concrete's a fluid, make it shaped like anything you, or your HOA, want. I use cast-in-place that does pretty much the same thing. My loads are greater than I have engineering for thin shell. But I'm ever hopeful.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
>My loads are greater than I have engineering for thin shell.
Tom, can you help me understand this? For example, I have a 350,000# slab being supported by my dome. We regularly suspend floor systems, scoreboards, major hvac equip directly from them. In a gymnasium, suspending a million pounds is no big deal. And none of that sacrifices what FEMA calls their "near-absolute disaster resistance". What loads are you trying to carry?
Cloud, you're clearly much better educated about thin shell. Our local engineers rolled their eyes when I brought it up. I settled for cast-in-place walls, curved, and steel bar joists to support my total load of 300psf. I'd love to do closer to 400psf as the PAHS would work better.
Typically I'm looking for a 40' or more clear span. The fc list has two people who offered engineering but I'm still waiting. The interest there is generally above grade. What I'd dearly love to build, and am currently able to get permitted and financed, is an underground hyperbolic parabola. Earth-forming, ala early Soleri at Cosanti, would fit my capabilities nicely.
Last Thursday I had another meeting with an existing client (furniture) about replacing his large decrepit barn. He initially asked me to visit as he knew I'd been doing some underground work and he hasn't figured out what he'd like to see from the master bedroom balcony (18th cent.). What I offered was hillside if he didn't want to see a barn. Not to mention the thermal and maintenance (lack thereof) benefits. Turns out he loves concrete and has a fight with contractors, architects, whomever about getting it. Why, I have no idea. He just moved his race horse breeding operation to a new barn and settled for a fir roof. Was told it couldn't be done in concrete.
This guy has the deep pockets I'd like to utilize to see just what would be entailed with 3-400psf. I don't mind some outlay, but spending thousands to find it was unaffordable to build would put me in a bind. Do you know small scale engineers with the ability, and preferably experience, to adapt thin shell for my loads? I thought I was all set with a guy I've know for years in Denver working for a large firm, but he bailed out on me too. I assume you've perused Ketchum's site and read what he had to say about the engineering.
Relatively new here, I'm not familiar with your work. I had no idea you were involved with large projects. I have engineering, mostly on napkins, for cast-in-place tee beams for our house. Yikes, expensive! No reason to exactly compete with steel, that I find incredibly cheap, but somewhere down the line the bill comes due and has gotta get paid.
I'm all ears, thanks.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, you have me crying with your story of the horse guy. We could absolutely do that. I have the engineer, and he works on projects of any size. Very few are trained in thin shells. This guy trained under the guy who's literally written the book. The structures I design and Chris engineers and various guys build are completely covered by the IBC, which refers to an ACI chapter. Other engineers are usually thrown for a loop by this stuff, and wanna over-size everything or say it can't be done. Whether you need design help from me or not, I can hook you up with the engineer. He's very easy to work with.
A design of mine is going up in FL for a guy who has horses. The builder was talking to me just this week about aiming for horse breeders--indestructable barns and such. Fire is the biggest killer of horses, and that can be largely avoided. What you describe should be absolutely no problem. If you wanna run some ideas, just give me a buzz. No obligation...we'll just talk shop be/c it's fun.
What part of VA are you in, assuming VA is the state? I have a commission in Charlottesville and just got the info for another one yesterday..
Edit: you mention 40' span. My house is 46 x 85 clear span. We can go 300' clear without any problem at all. No hyperbole...dead serious.
Edited 8/30/2003 4:01:37 PM ET by Cloud Hidden
Hi Cloud,
Very small world. Charlottesville we are. You working for any of our celebs? When are you coming?
Didn't mean to make you cry. Don't suppose we're talking to the same guy? Mine would do that. The horse-breeding operation is completed, I think. He didn't ask me anything and maybe regretted it. Might have been for the best anyway as I don't bump heads very gracefully.
Last time he asked consultation was on a farm house, formerly housing the cook, that he wanted to turn into an art studio. I'd already overseen interior demolition. There really was nothing of consequence there other than a butt-ugly stone chimney that clearly was intended to stay hidden behind walls. This was a stick built farm worker's house. My advice was to bulldoze and build a new "old" studio with the beams and stone he wanted. He was obviously displeased.
As I'm neither a contractor nor architecturally trained I sometimes wonder how I get into these things. But they're interesting. This particular client has had me wandering around his home and barns for quite a few years now. Started after his Chicago decorators, oops-designers, went to England to furnish the house. Museum quality pieces that weren't accustomed to central heat and ac. Started drying out and took several years to fully acclimate with a little tweak here and there from me. I use hide glue and horse people love it. <G>
The contractor he hired disagreed and told him it was always cheaper to work with what you have. I was asked by the employee who does the organizing for the owner what kind of money would be involved. Having seen the contractor's work and pricing before, I said over $200k. Now, this was a gutted 1200 ft house. Nobody believed me until the contractor was told to leave, after exceeding $300k of which there was very little to show. The front steps are wonderful stonework, front door's nice, and then you walk into the open studio to be greeted with the old stone chimney, patched by the same guy who did the steps. Must've all but killed him to match the crappy stonework.
Thanks for the offer of design/engineering. You're right about the engineer dearth. Most who knew, died. My expertise is furniture but I wanted a concrete house and PAHS makes eminent sense to me. Easily solves the common above grade problems of cracking and overheating. And waterproofing in a non-issue.
I've so far built (shell only) one commissioned PAHS house and have another one waiting for a buyer of the existing house. Present house costs him one month's income every year just to satisfy his creature comforts. He looked this way and said hmm... The thin shell I know would happen is a new studio for me.
And now that I've bored the pants off everybody else we can take further plans off-list. Thanks for getting back to me. Oh, the spans you mentioned aren't so unusual per Dulles or St. Louis airport. But not much chance of my buying that engineering and I don't imagine they are dealing with my earth loads. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
If 300' is to big a span for you, here's a 10'D one. :)
View Image
The thread in how one is built is thin shell thread , but you'd better read it soon, be/c all the pix will disappear in a month when the place that stores the photos closes the site. $&#@!
No celebs in Charlottesville. Just regular nice folks. As they both progress, would it be ok to ask you questions about local contractors? They'll each need a GC, etc. If I can arrange it, it'd be neat to have the same people involved on both jobs. Gotta be some synchronicity there! Got a web site for your furniture? What kind of stuff do you build?
Edited 8/30/2003 6:03:57 PM ET by Cloud Hidden
Thanks for the thread link. Cute place. That was before I got here. And I noticed you went into a few items I've later harped about. Oh, well, repetition isn't necessarily bad I suppose.
Happy to help, whatever I can, about local contractors. My experience isn't broad. I'll be real interested to see a dome here. Been the kiss of death for resale so far. One geodesic I remember was finally sold so cheap that it was razed in favor of a single-wide mobile home. Previously not a bad neighborhood. Our county building dept. is easy to get along with as long as there's engineering. This won't actually be built in Charlottesville? Little land available. I'm unaware of any air-forming done here. If your clients are selecting a gc, I have several recommendations to avoid.
No web site. I can barely get around this one. By the way, how do you get your "thin shell thread" to be a hyperlink? If it's complicated, don't answer as I probably won't understand. Between my wife and me, I'm the computer expert, but that isn't saying much.
Oops, I just noticed you have a link in your profile to a web site. That'll answer quite a bit. Then I'll be back with specific questions, since you offered. Thanks.
As for furniture, I'm not currently accepting more commissions, even from past customers. Don't restrict myself as to style, but try to stay away from period pieces so I don't have to compete with "antiques". Presently my plate is over-flowing. At least it keeps me off the streets. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Here's the html for that <a href="http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=21641.53">thin shell thread</a>
We've found that assessed and market value of our stuff has nothing to do with geodesics. From my perspective, they're closer to frame than to thin-shell.
Congrats on running your business so well that you're that booked! Still, if you have any pictures of your stuff, it's always fun to see new work...
Ummm, the question I was trying to ask is how you get words to become a hyperlink? The link worked great and I'd like to forward it. As registration isn't required here I guess that's no problem? It was a very good thread that will be of high interest elsewhere. Your web site should get increased traffic.
You clearly have little in common with geodesics, and maybe you're successful in selling that to the general public. My guess is that your clients in conservative areas mostly are unconcerned with resale. No? My house client just hit a mortgage bump due to no existing sold comps for his cast-in-place PAHS. It was the wildflower roof. Ended up with a lesser mortgage. His box at least looks more like a "house" around here.
Do you have a direct connection with Monolithic? They're obviously well-known in the fc community.
I'll try to dig out a photo or two. We're digitally challenged. And I don't mean after a band saw encounter. Don't know as my customers would agree that I run my business so well, but the products are well received and I stay busy, referrals only. Years ago, in Denver, a 2 yr wait wasn't uncommon. I no longer want that pressure. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
That html is the way to make words a hyperlink. Since the pix in that thread are gonna disappear in a few weeks (hyperphoto is closing shop, and it's a lot of work to store and re-post them), I may have to start another thread just to get one with pictures.
Monolithic and I are good friends. Independent of each other, but often working cooperatively.
My nephews are just about finished with their weekend house in Charlottesville. Maybe they would be available for a little quality construction help. They have no fear of trying something new.
LOL Thanks. Always happy to find new talent. My construction is mostly limited to underground structures. Do they drive Caterpillars?
There's another tepee just down the road here, a little taller and it reaches the ground. We really do have some winter here. Might I assume these are fair weather abodes?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
So now that you have me thinking, which can lead to troubles, I began to wonder while painting today, if you had marketed to governments as disaster centers. If the buildeing is nearly indestructible, it would seem ideal as an evacuation center. Could they be used as an office for government "work", with enough room saved for som emergency supplies, and a generator. I was wondering on Labor day, as the hurricane missed by about a hundred miles, where would we go if it came to that. I don't think anything in the area can be counted on to stand up to a real hurricane, and if I can't afford a Dome, then somebody should have one that I could run to. If I can find a piece of land that I can afford, look forward to lots more questions from me, as this seems like a really good idea. Of coarse first I must finish the mess that I am in the middle of now. Thanks for all the info
Dan
Dan,
In Texas, there's a high school gymnasium dome that's connected to the town's emergency response center. If there's a tornado warning, the school's doors automatically unlock and any resident can go there for safety. I've been in that one and another gym done this way and they're absolutely beautiful. Better still, these structures scale up nicely. While a residence will go for about the same as a quality custom home, an arena-sized one will go for roughly half of a conventional structure and require a fraction of the energy per month. Not only that, but you'll never get the black mold that so many schools are currently suffering from. They're trying to sell 'em. Just takes a while. They are absolutely perfect for gyms and school buildings, and all the more so when you roll in what you described--community shelter.
Fortunately they have no heavy equipment so their construction is limited to above ground. They actually stay there quite a bit year round. I guess I was a lot tougher when I was young too. They have hosted several boy scout outings etc. I am part owner of the property where this complex was built, so after the first time I saw it I came back home and had a long talk with my insurance agent.
I do have to laugh about this being located next door to one of the new "big money" mini horse farms that seem to be taking over Earlysville.
I have always been interested in building underground. The closest I have been able to come is last year we built a duplex with a basement apartment with concrete walls and acid stained concrete floors. My tenants have told me that it costs almost nothing to heat or cool and everyone who has seen it loves the feel of the place. If I ever decide to move back home I'll have to look you up....
Edited 9/4/2003 4:37:35 AM ET by DougG
We're on the other side of Hooville, where traffic isn't quite so hectic, on a little mountain. There are 5, that I know of, underground houses here and I've heard of another in Green County. One is post&beam with block infill, not PAHS (passive annual heat storage). They all work.
The guy contemplating a new barn is near Proffit, not small change. My neighbor seems to think her place is worth $1.3m for 3500 ft and 18 acres. Realtor sign's still up a few months later. I don't think he knew/knows what was next door. We have enough land that my junk is hidden. Local paper just reported that 80% of Albemarle residents use email! My neighbor on the other side uses an outhouse, likely part of the 20%. We love it here. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You can turn a thread into a hyperlink using this line:
<A href="URL"> TITLE </a href>
Replace the letters URL with the actual URL you want to use. (Enclosed by the quote marks)
Replace the word TITLE with whatever text you want to appear. (But no quote marks)
The box at the bottom has to be checked when you do it though.
There was a long thread in the Sandbox about this recently:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-thesandbox&msg=577.1#a3He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends [Oscar Wilde]
Thanks. I'm a little dense, maybe more than a little. Now if airwells works.... It did! WYSIWYG?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Hate ta drag the thread off track, but -
Is there any reason thin shelled dome building techniques couldn't be applied to half-round structures? Like something in the shape of half of a pipe?
The thought just drifted through my mind.........I've missed over 9,000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times I've been trusted to take the game-winning shot . . . and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." [Michael Jordan]
Ron, barrel vaults (quonset huts) are easy. They take a little more structure than a compound curve, but they are a very known entity.
I know quonset huts are common - But I've never seen one built of anything but steel.
Are you saying they're common, or that it's common to make a thin shelled concrete "quonset hut"?She is a peacock in everything but beauty [Oscar Wilde]
Concrete. I include barrel vaults frequently in my designs. Just spent yesterday redesigning a garage with groin vaults...perpendicular barrel vaults. Shotcrete barrel vaults are big in the mining and tunneling fields. Lots of tunnels are carved out of mountains and shotcrete--they just go foot by foot through the rock in assembly line fashion.....rock cutter, rebar, shotcrete, finishers. A builder was just describing to me the robotic arms they use for the shotcreting...just program the parameters, and it'll apply the concrete with a fraction of the overspray of a human. There's just some amazingly cool stuff going on out there.
Here you go:PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Not a dome structure but take a look at http://www.epicwalls.com/ They are located in PA and FL but will ship almost anywhere. I'm in south Florida so hurricanes are on everyone's minds here too. I've looked at several of these houses under construction and have been impressed enough to incorporate the walls in a clients 3500 square foot house. There can be a big time savings as well since many houses can be erected in 4 or 5 hours and have the roof framed and dried in the next day. The walls costs about $6.50 a square foot erected in my area. Total costs of a 30' by 40' house would be just over $10K framed and dried in. Not bad at all when you consider that the exterior walls are already insulated.
Here's the things that come to mind with epicwalls. And please understand that I'm not trying to slight them--they do improve on 2x4 construction in many ways, and they can fit between existing frame houses without looking as out-of-place as a dome would (round peg in a square hole :) ). But just doing a technical analysis:
* They have 6" concrete with thicker columns every few feet. I use 4" continuous. On the other hand, factory precast is usually cheaper than custom-built on site.
* They don't have continuous insulation. And the insulation is on the interior, which is far less effective than on the exterior. And the concrete columns really mess up the thermal characteristics--there's no insulation there. So, their energy efficiency isn't even close. This is an issue I have with ferrocement--they're a bitch to insulate, though I certainly do like the organic shapes and incorporate them at times for design purposes. It's also an issue I have with ICF--by putting insulation on the inside, you mess up the great passive solar possibilities, where the concrete serves as a heat sink and then radiates it to the inside to reduce heat load.
* They have corners, which is where they can come apart under extreme conditions.
* They have vulnerabilities at the roofline with uplift. Sure, they include hurricane straps. But on a purely technical basis, that doesn't compare to a building that has no uplift exposure.
So, not as strong and less energy efficient than a thin-shell. Still, they can look more conventional. Though come to think of it, that's what I'm moving away from architecturally, 'cause I prefer the organic shapes. Viva le difference! It's a big world and plenty of room for lots of styles.
Applause, applause!!
Well written and well explained.
My hat is off to you sir.
Dave
Cloud,
You're preaching to the choir! I've been a dome fan since the early 70's, still have my original copy of The Dome Book and even talked to Steve Baer once about building a dome. I love them, my better half hates them which I think is the crux of the problem everywhere. As efficient and safe as they are thye just don't fit in with most people's idea of a house. Frankly, I would build/live in one in a heartbeat but since the DW isn't going to budge the Epicwall system is my second choice.
Have you looked at ICF (insulated concrete forms) ? They can be sided with just about anything from brick to stucco to variouse wood, vinyl or cement sidings.
Dave
Check out this house:
http://www.wkarch.com/Essex/essex.htm
Built with big ICFs (Spancrete).
Dan,
Several disconnected thoughts come to mind.
* First, thanks for asking. As a community, we should be concerned about buildings that are strong enough to resist nature's forces and efficient enough to wisely use earth's resources. And of course, we have to make the aesthetic side work, too.
* So, what about shapes? Thin shell is a special category with special considerations. Part of the economy comes from using less material be/c you can maintain a truly thin structural wall--say 2.5 to 4" without sacrificing strength. What are the strength parameters? Well, sufficient to resist 300 mph winds and to not wrack in a quake. With such parameters, hurricanes become nothing more than a minor inconvenience, save for storm surge, and there are ways to address that. Also gotta be concerned with other components of the system, especially doors and windows. So, can we go flatter so as to appear conventional? Not typically (I'm separating this from folded plates, be/c I don't think that's the focus of the question). When you go flat, you lose the compound curve, and your surfaces act more like beams than you'd like. Beams require totally different engineering, and inevitably, more concrete and steel. And then the economics get blown all to hell. Even when we go from a compound curve to a barrel vault, it takes disproportionately more concrete and steel, be/c a series of arches is not the same as compound curves. So, truly "flat" and "thin shell" don't really go together. http://www.ketchum.org/shells.html
* Also, when you go flat, you introduce engineering moments into the equation. A true dome has none, except at the ground connection, and then all forces work to push it into the ground, which beats the heck out of lifting it out of the ground. When flat panels meet at corners, and you change direction at rooflines, you introduce vulnerabilities. The building is now far less resistant to high winds and twisting forces. Certainly you can engineer some of this away, but at what cost? Thicker/more materials cost more.
* I like all kinds of houses...arts & crafts, industrial, ultra modern, victorian, southern plantation...so my comments don't spring from a bias against other stuff.
* There are neighborhoods in which a thin shell--even in all the oddball ways in which I can warp the shape so that it looks nothing like a traditional dome--just isn't the best aesthetic fit. A log cabin or a victorian might look out of place there, too. I live in the mountains, and w/in half a mile, there's a pseudo-Victorian (Robin's egg blue--that looks like crap in that setting, and a beige brick house that seems a total misfit to me. Once we get more dome communities, a rectilinear house will look out of place, and we'd be asking the question, "Why spend about the same money to create a structure without nearly the strength and with double or more the energy load?"
* What about a book? I don't think there are currently enough "fine domebuilding" examples to fill a book. Too many igloo-shaped ones that harken back to the storage shed origins of air-formed thin-shells. I'm trying to change that but it takes time. As an industry, we're just beginning to explore some of the possibilities.