Maybe this should be posteed in the business folder, but i though it might also be a good general topic. It kind of follows in the vain of DCASSII topic of tool list for employees.
Many years ago I worked for a commercial compamy that landed two good size jobs at the same time. Job one was a three story home for the elderly in our downtown area. Job number two was a nurseing home 10 blocks east of job number one. Job one was a regular wage job, while job two was a prevailing wage job. Both jobs started within a month or two of each other, but because of excavation problems on #2 it lagged an extra month behind in schedule.
I was working as a carpenter on #1 at approximatly 8.25/hr. The labors that worked on job #2 were making 8.50/hr. Carpenters on job #2 got 10.75/hr plus paid benefits. If you went from one job to the other, your wage rate changed. As you can imagine, every one wanted to work the prevailing wage job.
Since job #2 got behind schedule early, the big boss figured out a way to make up time and save money. He had the carpenters on the regular wage job build all the concrete forms for job #2 on the job #1 site. Truck and trailer them to higher wage site and have his labors set them up and pour them.
My guestion is: Do you guys consider this ethical treatment of employees? Explain yourself from whatever rational you choose, money, ownwership, stewardship, legal, whatever.
Dave
Replies
I drove truck for a paving company back in the 70's. We did a lot of prevailing wage work on Indian Reservations, Forest Service roads and city streets. The paving crews got PW because they were working on site while the drivers and batch plant people got the regular slave wages we were used to because we were off-site.
About 2 years after I left that job, I got a whopping check for the difference in wages because the employer had been audited by the state and made to pay up the difference to the off-site employees.
I don't know if those rules still apply, but, IMO, not only is the practice you describe unethical, it may be illegal.
Some people would bitch even if they were hung with a new rope.
No, I don't think it is ethical at all, but is probably justifiable in some fashion. I did a rather large prevailing wage window job at a university which had some fabrication work that could be done off-site. It was done at the Co. shop and paid at regular time. Also, Carps that carried stuff, say unloading trucks of windows for example, got paid the labor rate, about 1/2 of carpenter rate.
The painter wanted to carry the windows somewhere off-site to first-coat them, but the CM wouln't permit him.
Nope, I'd say un-ethical as hell, but what are you going to do? The folks I'm working for catch so much grief from those not on the rate jobs that I wouldn't be surprised if they quit bidding them.
Edited 5/10/2002 4:30:51 PM ET by DCASSII
folks I work for did a scale job once, they were too scared to pull any fast ones because of the "scale patrol". I'm not sure, but I think now each contractor on these jobs not only has to pay the wage, but also be made up of some % minorities, etc
I wouldnt consider it unethical. But I would considerate unfair to his employees. If He wanted employees for the long haul He would of treated them fairly. If He didnt care about his employees and figured He could get anyone to do there jobs then he justified his actions by his profit. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
I don't have a solution or know all the rules and red tape, just a comment that this is an example of what happens when govt gets involved in management issues. All that really happens is it all gets complicated by one rule on top of another. If this is a union situation, your shop steward or union rep should be able to answer for you.
My sympathies to you Dave, unless you have a tremendous benefits package, anything less than 12/hr for a carp is not a living wage in this country. What is ethical about that on either job?????????
And what is ethical in a so-called "prevailing wage" when it is always ten to thirty percent above the wages everybody e;lse in town is getting???????? This is a lie in the first place, to call it the prevailing wage.
Thanks to all. As I mentioned, this happened to me many years ago. and those were the wages at that time. I never made a dime off of the prevailing wage project, although I was promised that I would do all the trim work on that site.
What happened was that I eventually had a gut full of being treated like that. We were all long time employees of this outfit. I made a few phone calls and found another job. When I gave my nptice, the big boss offered me another $0.25/hr to stay....still below what the labors were making on the PW site. I turned him down and he blew a gasket..... I left the job that day, instead of two weeks later. He had the nerve to call that night and ask if they could borrow a couple items off of my truck, because they didn't have enough tools to run two big jobs. I felt bad about the way we parted company, so I let him use my porta-band and rebar cutter/bender for the next month.
He is the same guy that called me 3 years later and ask me to come back to work for them as a superindentent. We had a long talk about treating employees fairly, tools, and management roles before I accepted his offer.
What had happened on the PW site was somthing unexpecteded. The city engineers had pronounce the site suitable for the nursing home construction. The city had owned the square block of the site for years. In fact they had demmowed an old low income housing complex from the site. When the old foundations were unearthed durring the new construction, the city made the contractor remove them, at no additional cost.
So what do you do as a business owner? Walk, and forfiet a 2.5mil. bond? Hire attorneys and hope they don't eat everything while you fight city hall? Keep working and find a way to tighten the belt and get through the job with little or no profit? They chose the last option, and since it was a HUD job eventualy made a little money on it.
I understand the ecconomics of what they did. I don't understand, and never will, why the company did not feel like the employees could not understand what was going on. I have seen this attitude at more than one company I have worked for.
A few years ago, I got a large job involving removing existing doors, trim and handrail from a 13 story nursing home. These doors were to be re-hung after recieving a new laminate facing, applied in our shop. New hardware was also applied. I had crews both in the nursing home and in the shop for better than a year. This job was a rate job, and we were told by the GC, and state labor board that all wages applied to the rate, wether on site or in shop. I bid it that way from the start. I'm not sure if this varies by state but bet it does. BTW rates at the time were about $21 pr. hr. now they are at $28 pr. hr. in our county.
Bish
Ethically and in all fairness, the boss should do his best to spread the gravy to all his employees, with perhaps consideration first for seniority. Last prev. wage work I did for an employer, we had to break down our time into categories so the proper scale could be applied to the type of trade we were performing.
As far as I know, doing off-site work for a prev. wage job HAS to be paid at the prev. wage.
Ken Hill
Ken and Bishopbldr,
You are probably both correct about the off site rate being the same. If this guy had been honest with his employees, we would have done the work without all of the bitching that was going on. I suspect that when they finally got the mess straighten out, the company owners and the general superintendent just pocketed the money. It would have been nice if he had given some "make-up" money out when HUD finaly got the city straighten out they had to make up the overage to the owners of the complex. That was around 1980, I think.
Interesting side note is that the place is now condemmed. Seems like the gusset plates on the fire rated trusses broke down, and the roof started caving in.
I see both sides of the story there, but like you say if the company had been honest about their situation, then it would have saved a lot of resentment.
My former boss of ten years let it slip one time that anytime we worked in Los Angeles or New York City we were supposed to be getting prevailing wages, and we didn't. His reasoning was we were already making more than most of the company, and the higher ups refused to pay us anymore. Let me add that we lived in motels for four weeks on and one week off. And our average week was eighty hours. When doing transit lines twenty four and even thirty six hour shifts were normal. With only six to eight hours to rest before the next shift.We earned everything we got. Inner office jeliously got the best of them. That's one of the reasons turn overs were so high.
That is why I believe in an open book policy. It works if you hire good people. Would not work for a company that didn't have open books anymore. I could choose from about 14+ such plumbing companies within 100 miles of me.