What would you do?
I have a 60 yr old house with red wood lap siding with a 6″ reveal that needs to be replaced. I would like advice on what type of material to clad the house with. Vinyl or Fiber Cement? Home Depot stocks cellwood vinyl siding in khaki and 8 1/4″ primed james hardie FC. I love FC siding because it’s got more of a realistic look, but I know if I choose vinyl, I could install it right over the existing redwood. I could special order a custom color of FC for not much more. I would really appreciate your expertise. Thank you.
Replies
FC hands down. No matter how well you install and detail vinyl it will always look cheap. FC, on the other hand, looks and feels solid. Properly installed it will probably last 50 years or more. You could skin the existing house with plywood on top of the redwood but that would require detailing around windows and doors, not a big deal if you have a table saw. However, pulling the redwood would give you a look at the bones of your house and allow you to repair existing wiring and plumbing or run new as well as filling insulation voids, air sealing the walls and flashing windows. . After that install Zipwall and you'll practically have a new house. Much more energy efficient, quite and stiffer.
I'll try to do a post this weekend on a current project where we're doing all of the above.
flo
A thread on that project would be a very welcome addition to this board. Thanks.
Thanks.
It's just FC is so thin vs. 1/2" beveled lap siding. I've never done FC before, but I've been reading the instructions and watching the YouTube and it doesn't seem too difficult except heavy. I know it kicks up a lot of dust and a hardie/masonry blade is needed for cutting. And the starter strip is just a piece of FC cut at 1-1/2 -2". Can this material be mitered at two adjoining ends like inside or outside corners or do I have to use trim like Aztec or veranda PVC ? I'm also going to run 1/2" proflex with a termination end for the natural gas grill, so can this material be drilled? Thanks
I hear what you're saying about the poor profile of FC -- I think it looks kinda chintzy. I ever so glad we resided our house about 25 years ago using Masonite brand "Woodsman" siding -- thicker, a pleasant rounded edge, stronger, no dust problem installing, etc, and very durable. But unfortunately you can't buy that type of siding anymore.
which is a good thing
DanH wrote:
But unfortunately you can't buy that type of siding anymore.
@DanH
I believe there's a reason for that; it involves the term "class action" and your beloved "Woodsman" product.
http://www.sidingsolutions.com/pages/MasoniteSIdingAnnounement.html
If you look at that article, all it says is that Masonite is (was) getting out of the siding biz. Says nothing about which products were defective.
There were three problems:
1) Masonite sold some crap too, such as the ColorLok, and probably some earlier non-tempered products.
2) (Probably the bigger problem) All sorts of other crap sold by other companies was referred to as "Masonite" and lawsuits were directed at the company. Generally it was impossible to prove who manufactured the stuff by the time it had deteriorated, and the HO said "I was told it was Masonite" and jumped on the CA suit.
3) Regardless of the quality of the product, due to the lawsuits and associated bad press you basically couldn't give away hardboard siding, starting about 1990.
Masonite decided to cut their losses and get out of the biz.
(I do suspect that partly this may have been related to manufacturing issues as well -- making tempered hardboard requires industrial processes that I'm guessing are not particularly "clean", so Masonite probably wanted to discontinue that product line. Regular non-tempered hardboard, OTOH, is manufactured about like paper, and does not require the heat, pressure, or use of phenolic resins that tempered hardboard requires. But of course the untempered stuff is crap.)
I didn't claim the product was defective.
My understanding of the case was that there was a settlement. That means that no "fault" was determined, nor was any material specifically deemed "defective". However, if the material was sound and continued to perform well, it would have been marketed by other companies that licensed the technology... or pursued in production once patents expired--regardless of the class action.
The market is largely driven by performance, not law suites. Bottom line, wood fiber composites do not hold up well to weather*. That's why they're nolonger manufactured and sold to any substantial degree (if at all). The don't hold up well for siding products and they don't hold up well for decking. As a matter of fact, the entire decking industry is quickly abandoning composite decking in favor of cellular PVC or PVC capped products.
*The reason phenolic resin products perform much better (including moisture conditions) is because it involves the heat curing of polymer (plastic) materials. I wouldn't call that a masonite siding product any more than I would call fiber cement a wood composite product (it contains a bit of wood pulp fiber). While fiber cement still claims to be a high embedded energy product, it is made from partially recycled material, fire resistant, will not rot, and is extremely low maintanance. These advantages blow masonite products away in terms of market viability.
The fact is, "tempered" (ie,
The fact is, "tempered" (ie, phenolic resin bonded) hardboard is an excellent siding material, but it's A) one that no one will buy because "Masonite" has a bad rep (only partially deserved) and B) one that no one will make because it requires expensive manufacturing facilities that no one wants to invest in due to (A).
I have no doubt that something resembling tempered hardboard will be "reinvented" in another 10 years or so, though likely the phenolic resin will be replaced with some other chemical. (Of course, one could argue that FC already is this product, but it's a poor imitation of the real thing, and loses many of the better attributes of tempered hardboard.)
let's get this straight
Dan, please remind me again; what are the "many" better attributes of phenolic resin tempered hardboard siding over FC?
Looks better, lighter (and hence available in longer pieces), less brittle, cuts with ordinary tools (and no extraorinary dust protection), doesn't absorb moisture.
I'll address each of your points:
1. Looks better--doesn't count; it's subjective
2. Lighter--marginally
3. Less brittle-- sorry phenolic resin is just as (if not more) brittle than FC. If you're counting untempered siding, then your back to class action issues that resulted in a settlement
4. Cut with ordinary hand tools-- todays tools used ot work FC are ordinary. They may not have been 15 years ago, but I live in the present; not the past. Also FC cuts dustless with electric shears (see Florida's posts). You need to protect yourself from phenolic resin dust just as much as you need to protect yourself from FC dust.
5.Doesn't aborb moisture--nope. Sorry, FC doesn't either (to any pratical degree). That's why you don't need to back prime.
Hence, one marginal advantage is not "many" and is the main reason why this product vanished from the market. If we all choose our siding product based on "lightness" advantage alone, we'd all hang vinyl siding .
lets also be clear about tempered hardboard
My understanding is that tempered hardboard can be oil (i.e, linseed oil) OR phenolic resin tempered . Maybe some products are a combination of both. At any rate, oil and phenolic resin tempered products are very different animals in terms of weatherability. You can't just classify them all under "tempered" hardboard. Tempering just means it employes a heat cured impregnated coating that is bonded to its cellulose fibers under high heat. Which process did your Woodmate siding utilize?
I believe the roofing materail "Woodruff " was a Masonite product as well. I remember having a roofer install it on a project in the early 1990's. I took a piece of it home and kept it submersed in a 5 gallon bucket of water for 2 weeks with no (seemingly) adverse affects. I was surprised. I'm thinking it utilized some form of phenolic resin tempering process. However, my empirical testing was not very scientific and it certainly didn't mimic the weather conditions that a roof is exposed to over many years.
My point here is that this product (Woodruff) was taken off the market regardless of how it was made. In my opinion, folks would not have automatically associated it with a siding product and it would not have failed in the market just because Masonite company produced it. My guess is that both failed because either:
1. It was too high of an embedded energy product (phenolic resin).
2. had poor weatherability perfomance (untempered or oil tempered).
3. combination of both.
This should be a huge quesiton mark to anyone blaming it simply on the Masonite name because the company is still producing many products to this day-- despite brandishing the company name. Not coincidently, many (if not all) are for interior use. IMO this is where it rightly belongs.
Yes, FC does have a lower profile than lap siding but most people would never notice. It is heavy but we never lift it off the ground until we hang it. One guy can do it with siding gauges. We also never use a saw, all of our cutting is done with electric hand shears or a manual shear. We use PVC trim boards at the bottom, corners and as window trim. PVC is much easier to install then FC trim and looks better too. Yes, it can be drilled or punched.
It's a lot more work than vinyl or hardboard but you get what you pay for. If you plan to stay in your house using the best material and doing a detailed installation will pay for itself in reduced maintenance and the mass will seriously reduce noise in the house.
As I said, I'll do a post on bullet proof FC installation this weekend.
Fiber cement Indeed.
Thanks Florida and everybody! I visited a lumber showroom today which had the FC on display so I could better visualize the finished product, something I couldn't do at the Home Depot. I'm going with James hardie plank in color plus khaki brown with tyvek underlayment. Since you guys are pros and have yrs of experience, what type of sheathing did they have back in the day? In the early 50's. I've got some type of brown crumbly 5/8 fiber sheathing now.
Your sheathing is probably Celotex or some variation thereof. It's made with bagasse, the leftovers from making sugar fropm sugar cane.
Outside sheathing?
Do you think I should be ok going through the hardieplank into the Celotex into the stud? I've replaced all of the water damaged Celotex with 7/8 plywood. Manufacturer calls for 11ga 1.25 roofing nail. I was going to use 1 3/4 nail to penetrate the stud better. Studs are spaced 16 OC. Just a little concerned of the weight of FC.Thanks.
Yes, you'll be fine as long as you don't overnail and pull the Hardi down. I'd use at least a 2" nail, probably 2 1/4" and make sure it's a ring shank. A nail gun will make the job much easier, faster and keep you from loosing your thumb nail. We really prefer the Max 565S siding nailer.
Very thankful
I can't tell you how helpful all of your advice and opinions has been for a young carpenter like my self. Appreciate it!
Just one more comment
Another (belated) vote for FC. I'm an amateur, but I resided my home with ColorPlus Hardieplank four years ago--by myself (at the age of 60-61, and with then-undiagnosed Parkinson's disease, LOL), and I included a rain-screen wall. I also replaced 95% of the wood trim at the same time.
It's not so difficult, but do need to dot your "i's" and cross your "t's". Follow all the best-practice instructions on the Hardie site, taking special care with cutting (avoid silica dust), and treating *all* cut surfaces with touch-up paint (I took a paint chip off one board and had a US paint store prepare several gallons of Benjamin Moore Moorgard ext paint to match the siding color for use in touch-up locations).
I did most perpendicular cutting with a Pac Tool FC siding shear (SS204) , except for cutouts and cut-arounds, where I used a saber saw with Hitachi FC blade. I also connected the sabersaw (a Bosch) to a cheap shop vac to to collect the dust. At the end, I discarded the shop vac and sent the saw in for thorough professional cleaning, since it was almost ruined by the dust. For that same reason, I strongly recommend not using a circ saw unless it's the specialty Makita model with designed-in dust collection.
The real secret to doing it alone is having a good set of siding gages; I used the Pac Tool Gecko, and was amazed at how easy it made the job. (Only, the Gecko can't be used on the first and second bottom courses--there, I used a string loop stapled to the furring strips). I used 7-1/4" planks, which weigh 16.6# each; luckily I had full scaffolding installed for the second storey work (we had the roof replaced at the same time), so I didn't have to mess around with moving ladders.
Someone mentioned using off-stud joints; I actually ordered a mess of those at the beginning, but realized I couldn't use them when I decided to build the rain-screen; instead, whenever a board-end missed a stud, I installed a short "dummy" furring strip screwed to thesheathing, then screwed the end of the FC board to that strip.
Also be sure to follow the instructions about installing flashing at butt joints in the field; and plan carefully so that all field cuts are butted against trim and not against another plank.
I used a combination of nails (2-1/4" electrogalvanized in a Makita coil nailer) and ss screws (mostly at off-stud points, and elsewhere in locations I felt the screws would hold better than the nails). I used electrogalvanized only since they were all the BORG had during the narrow window of time I had to buy materials and fill my shipping container. If I were to do it over, I'd use hot-dipped or SS. Of course, be sure to get a box of color-matched caulking.
I've got to say, it was an enjoyable year, despite the unmedicated Parkinson's symptoms (I'm on meds now). By the end of the job, I had learned enough that I was wishing I had another house to reside, since I figured I could do it much quicker and more efficiently.
Good luck!
vinyl? just say no......
Pretty much what florida said.
I would add that IMHO vinyl siding is one of the worst ideas ever in home building.
Diagonally across the street from our house is a house built about 20 years ago that has vinyl on it. It looked good 20 years ago and still looks good. But it was done with high-quality, heavy-duty vinyl, and the contractor did a really good job of fit and finish, such that from the steet vinyl would be your last guess, after wood, FC, steel, whatever.
But I can also look up the street and see a couple of fairly poor vinyl installs.
Though, thinking about it, I don't tend to see many really crappy vinyl jobs anymore, and I don't see the paper-thin vinyl that used to be so popular.
I suppose I'm saying that I wouldn't discount vinyl without any consideration at all. It's just that the quality of the materials and install are a bigger part of a vinyl job than FC. And, of course, vinyl doesn't really count as siding per se, but is more like a heavy paint, and, moreso than with any other product, it needs to have a good airtight, watertight layer behind it.
I agree, but aluminum siding usually looks worse, but aluminum has a pretty good scrap value. I have Hardi siding on my house, it is a bit of a pain to hang, but I like the slightly fake look, but really like the fire resistance thgat vinyl sorely lacks.
You don't say where you are, which would have some bearing on what you put behind the siding. The farther north you are, the more you want an airtight product. The closer to the coast you are the more you want a rainscreen.
Location
I'm in good ole' Cincinnati, Ohio.
Vinyl is for Losers
Need one even ask whether fiber cement is better than vinyl?
Despite the howls that are sure to come from various vinyl merchants, there's NO comparison. Vinyl has found its' niche as a cheap way for slumlords to cover up rotten siding that was painted with lead.
I firmly believe that - again, contrary to the claims of most siding "contractors" - the correct to put new siding on a house involves first removing the old stuff, then repairing any damage found. THEN you put up the new stuff.
About the only "weakness" of fiber cement is that it is fairly brittle. Let the cable guy pound a staple into it, and thirty minutes later there's a cracked piece of siding ... with, perhaps, a small piece laying on the ground beneath. Pile stuff up against the house, bump the pile with your car, and CRACK.
Otherwise, fiber cement doesn't warp, rot, or burn. Critters don't eat it. It holds paint like nothing else. Fiber cement can be made to have any texture you like - from wood shakes to wood grain.
How to install? While I've known folks who did their own, you're probably better served with a contractor. Like any material, it has its' quirks, and the pros have the tools, equipment, and know-how to do it best. Otherwise, the James Hardie site has all manner of installation information. Helpful stuff, like "hang it from the studs" and "no need to back-prime."
There are also available fiber cement trim pieces- no need to mix materials.
Vinyl? Please. Even the "best" stuff dries out over time, becoming brittle. These problems are often exaggerated by the flaws of the old siding underneath. Whenever I see vinyl, the first thing I wonder is what damage is being hid.
Installation
If I'm better served with a contractor then it would be hard for me to learn how to install the stuff on my own. YouTube is invaluable and I've meticulously studied the instalation instruction. I'm doing just the back covered porch/deck for now, about 300 sq ft. We'll see how it turns out. As long as I have a good pair of siding gauges, water proof material behind the siding, joint flashing, and maintain proper clearances, etc. I should be fine. If I screw it up, lesson learned. Gotta turn pro one day. Lol
I have a few tips.
Nail as low as you can if you are blind nailing, that holds the planks tighter at the bottom. I have shears, but a saw gives much better cuts. I believe off stud joiners are a good thing to use as it is hard to nail the planks close to the end to studs, but if you have good sheathing you can just nail to that at the ends. Aluminum and fibercement aren't very compatible, I would avoid having them in direct contact. Carefully figure out the exact overlap you will need so that the planks line up with your window openings and eaves for the best appearance. Have fun, it's pretty easy to work with, especially if you have Popeye arms.
I'm alway disappointed when I observe someone throwing up the white flag by using the popular gen-x term, "Whatever". It usually means someone has exhausted their logical capacity.
As for the Woodsman product: you may be having some success with it, but apparently many others have not been so fortunate.
http://www.hadd.com/ver7-dependancies/masonite/damage.shtml
Meanwhile I have fibercement plank shingles on the gable end of my house that have never even been painted (on purpose) and look as good as the day I installed them 15 years ago.
You know, you are getting tiresome. And are going on ignore.
That's what it's for. LIke they say: If you can't take the heat, it's time to get out of the kitchen.