What does this mean: “4-1.75″x18″ LVL bolted together with 2 rows of 1/2″ bolts @ 24″ O.C.”
It’s a 22′ long multiply LVL over a garage and it supports the 2nd floor. So is it 2 rows, the top row being 24″ apart and the bottom row being 24″ apart meaning there are rougly 23 bolts or is it roughly 12 bolts stagered between a top and bottom row?
I can call the engineer tomorrow, but I’d like to pick the bolts up on the way to site and the engineer will likely take at least several hours to return my call.
Replies
I doubt you'd go wrong using 2 bolts every 24 in. It's only a dozen more holes and bolts.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
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two bolts every 24", one on top and one on bottom.. had to do the same thing once on a 4 ply 16" lvl...
make sure you have and auger style bit rather than a spade bit...goes MUCH faster....don't ask how I know...
good luck
it's ok to think you're as old as you once were...just so long as you don't try to prove it...
http://www.cobrajem.com
Edited 12/3/2006 5:25 pm by Charlie the Singing Carpenter
I think I would stagger the bolts, still would have the same number top and bottom.
Start one row in 24" and the other 12" in, with the only ones lining up being on the end.Friends help you move.
Real friends help you move bodies!
I usually do it that way...in my simple mind, it makes for fewer "stress points"...it's ok to think you're as old as you once were...just so long as you don't try to prove it...
http://www.cobrajem.com
Ask the engineer and you'll probably end up with more bolts. <g>
I just installed a 28' 14" lvl to a concrete foundation. The engineer speced 1/2" bolts 3 every 12" looks like a porcupine. Then with the TJI's and hangers 16" OC. fun
Matt,
Around here the plans would say Stagger them. If your not sure, I wouldn't guess at it if I were you. You should just wait until you talk to him. I'm sure you could find something else to do. If you choose the wrong way, what will you do? You have a 50% chance of doing it wrong. If you wait you have 0% chance of doing it wrong.
You should've called the Engineer sooner so you would have your answer already as you know. Fore me it wouldn't be worth it and I would wait a couple hours then go get them.
I think that is what I'll do. You know how it is - I read the note earlier, but didn't really think about it, except that I decided to wait and see if the truss company supplied the bolts since they supplied the LVLs. No bolts showed up, so now that I have to go get them, I actually had to think about how many were required. Also, I don't want to cause the guys to do unnecessary work by putting in 2x the number of bolts than are necessary.
Where it comes to buying the bolts, always get one extra anyway, so you have one to htrow back at the hardware store windows because of bad threads,. or to run up the butt of the guy who dropped it ten feet to concrete to ruin the threads.;)
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Yea - I always get 1 or 2 extra. Although after the fact, I don't do much of anything with it/them except throw them in a bolt box in my job trailer. :-)
LOL.... I have that same box in my trailer! 25+ bolts and I swear that no two are the same.
FWIW, I would interpret that note to mean two bolts every 24". I would not stagger them just because it usually says "staggered" when they want them that way. Personally, I'd lay them out so that I had three equal spaces between each bolt..... so they'd be 6" OC vertically and 24" OC horizontally.
But if you can get an answer from the engineer in short time, then I'd go for it. No sense in doing it twice if you don't have to. And I agree that it's a vague description of what he intended for you to do.View Image
I've got a five gallon bucket on the floor of the shop and half a shelf full.I tend to overbuy important stuff, because the hardware store is too long of a swim.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The ILevel (formerly TrusJoist) specs for top-loaded members are thus, for multiple-ply 3-1/2" thick pieces:
Minimum two rows of 1/2" dia. bolts at 24" centers, staggered. (My emphasis)
If multi-ply members of 1-3/4 thick are ganged, nails are specified at a completely different spacing: Three rows of fasteners at 12" centers. We prefer to use the Simpson SDS screws or the ones GRK (I think I got that right) because of the "super suck up" action they deliver.
Are you using the screws in addition to the bolts? Seams unnecessary.
Edit: I'd like to retract that question/statement. After looking at the LVL info more clostly I see what you meant.
Edited 12/5/2006 6:34 am ET by Matt
I think you meant to say that the bolts were unnecessary if the screws were used. Right?
blue
The way it reads, the bolts are to be over one another on the same layout, but the description is poor, it does not spec the distance from top and bottom of the LVLs. If the bolts were stagerred, they would still be 24" OC, so the top row at 24"OC uses the same # of bolts as the bottom row
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
CL of bolts should be 2" from top and bottom.
That's about what I recalled, but the LVLs I have beamed up with bolts this way were deeper, so I didn't know if the offset would be the same.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks all. It's a done deal. Complete. History.
I may be preaching to the choir here as I am new to this site and don't have a handle on your experience level but:
Take the time to lay out any joists, etc. that will fall against these lvl's first , before laying out the drilling pattern. Trust me finding out you have bolts where trusses etc. hit isn't pleasant. If you have to use a few extra bolts to ensure things are in the clear it is cheaper than fixing the mess created the other way around.
I also read the bolt pattern as lining up vertically , not staggered.
I'd say Dovetail got it right, watch the layout and have two bolts in every 24". I've done hundreds of these and although it hasn't yet made a difference to the inspector(staggered or stacked), if there's a problem down the road it won't be on your butt.
BTW, I usually use a generous amount of construction adhesive between laminations and washers on both sides. Good point on the auger bit and when you nail, only nail on the top and bottom two inches. That way you won't have to drill through nails.
Matt,
So what did you find out? and how long did it take the engineer to get back to you?
Engineer took a few hours to call back. His answer? "Look in the manufacturer's literature for the LVLs you are using." I said: "I don't have access to that right now. I'm standing in the mud on a construction site" He: "Well OK - let me look it up." The answer is staggered meaning that the top row has bolts 48" apart and the bottom row has bolts 48" apart, but offset horizontally by 24". So, over the 22' span, 13 bolts were used.
Looking it up on line this link has the technical reference for the LVLs and the answer is on page 48: Engineered Lumber Floor and Roof Systems Product Guide (2MB/56pgs)
I hate to say this, but 24" oc staggered, does not mean each row is 48" apart. You're 13 bolts short.
What it means is that each row has a bolt 24" oc, but the rows are offset 12" from each other. The footnotes on the page 48 you refferenced describes this.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Good observation Don.
We've gotten specs showing the bolts lined up, not staggered. The bolts had to be 1.25" from the edge if memory serves me correctly.
blue
TJI's manufacturers spec says 2" from top and bottom.
After looking at the PDF download and studying the other examples I concur.
OK - I printed the LVL info (pages 48 and 49), and went ahead and had them do it as you say - which is what I got out of those pages once studied the pages. I think the guy at the engineer's office was wrong in what he told me. We ended up with something like 23 bolts.
Also, I asked the tech support guy at the truss manufacturer - they supplied the LVLs. He said that the beam was only loaded at around 160# PLF so the way we bolted it has a safety factor of x2 but is as called for on the LVL tech info.
Hate to say it, but I wonder why the gurus of BT didn't refer me to this kind of info to start with - I think, spurred on by my engineer's vague wording on the prints, we are all learning... If the engineer had of just added a few words like "staggered" and/or "each row", things would have been so much clearer... A pic would have been wonderful!
Can't reply for IdahoeDon but for myself I clean forgot they give those booklets out ( or should!) with every order of Engineered lumber.
Besides who ever heard of reading instructions before you solve the problem? ;-)
I know I just always keep learning.
Can't reply for IdahoeDon but for myself I clean forgot they give those booklets out ( or should!) with every order of Engineered lumber.
It would be nice to see more of those bookelets. Last summer they were like Wal-mart bags on a windy fence. Now the HVAC guy wants one to see how he can whittle the joists down to size, the plumber wants one to plan his hacking and we hate to let our copies go.
Too bad I'm not back in school or I'd print out all the online manuals we seem to collect and 3-ring binder 'em. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
When I am functioning as a super on comercial jobs I insist on two copies, truss layout stuff etc as well... one goes in my file in the shack,just what you suggest . I keep a binder and it stays in my care. End of the job I attach it to the final plans and paperwork for the bosses to file away. CYA !!
A pic would have been wonderful!
I love pictures. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Matt, what grade 1/2" bolts did you use?
I agree, 24" o.c. staggered does not mean that bolts in their respective rows are 48" apart.
That is not correct. Any spec sheet that SHOULD be supplied with your lvl order will have a "bolt pattern" with it. My company supplies one with every order. Start 6" in from the end and goe 2'0" oc. Then go down to the second row and repeat... only start 12" in from the end.
______________________________________________________________________
x x x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x x
______________________________________________________________________
This how it should look..... Good luck
Engineer took a few hours to call back. His answer? "Look in the manufacturer's literature for the LVLs you are using."
I love that. How much did the phone call cost?
I don't think they charge for that kind of thing since they engineered the plans in the first place. On the other hand, when something needs a stamped letter - that's gonna cost ya.
Sorry I didn't see this sooner. Not having power or internet access really crimps your style. (-:Something smells funny here. Why the hell is the LVL so big? You said it spans 22' and only carries 160 PLF ??? If that's correct, it's so grossly overkilled that it isn't even funny. Four plies at 22' will carry well over 1,000 PLF.To me, bolts don't really do anything unless a beam is side loaded. Then you need the bolts to transfer load through to the back plies of the beam. But I suppose the bolts could have been specified by the engineer, which makes it a moot point.
Computer error - no keyboard - press F1 to continue.
Yea - 160 PSF sounded low to me but that is what the truss guy said but you know how those truss guys are... :-)
Didn't have much luck with the guy form the engineer's office either... vague text on the plans backed up by wrong verbal information.
This was actually spected as a piece of steel or LVLs, but the LVLs priced out cheaper and it would have been the only piece of steel in the neighborhood. Would have cost an extra crane trip too. I think part of the reason for the bolting is that in a greater than 3 ply application, there is no way to see if it is properly fastened unless it is bolted or screwed together. Since the prints said bolts, I likely would have to get an engineer's letter to use screws.
On to a new challenge now. Plumber cut the bottom chord of a floor truss. He said: "Don't worry it will be OK, it's on top of a wall." (and parallel to it) Thing is, it is not a bearing wall, so it's NOT OK. 4 phone calls with the truss company in the last 3 days. No solution yet. They gave me 2 repair options but there is so much sheet in the way it's hard to imagine getting anything in there.... I've got an idea, just need an engineer to back me up.
Know any good plumbers? :-)
Oh, I guess he was a "structural plumber", huh.
The way the situation is shaping up this is going to be a REAL expensive lesson for our friend the plumber. Looks like he is gonna be paying the truss company for repair parts, electricians, HVAC and framers (x 2 houses). Personally I'd really like to "move" the offending pipes with a sawsall :-), no wait a minute, maybe I'll bring my chain saw to work :-)
I get so sick of these guys hacking stuff up and not feeling any responsibility. Two days ago I had the framers doing cut strong back repairs, and today I stayed late to reinstall some fire blocking they knocked out so I can be ready for a framing inspections tomorrow.
>> On to a new challenge now. Plumber cut the bottom chord of a floor truss. He said: "Don't worry it will be OK, it's on top of a wall." (and parallel to it) <<Cut his pipes in half and tell him not to worry about it and it will be ok.....Another useless POS plumber........>> I get so sick of these guys hacking stuff up and not feeling any responsibility. Two days ago I had the framers doing cut strong back repairs, and today I stayed late to reinstall some fire blocking they knocked out so I can be ready for a framing inspections tomorrow. <<Are you the GC? If so don't pay this moron what you owe him and deduct whatever it cost you to fix it. Matt, sorry, but if you don't your a fool!Joe Carola
Joe: I'm the superintendent. I have full responsibility for the job except that the check that the book keeper writes don't come from my account and on the other end, I just get a regular paycheck plus bonuses. I'll never make the big $$ though and at the same time, I'll never loose my a$$. As far as backcharging, as soon as the framer charges me for extra work, then I backcharge the plumber. Sometimes I want to backcharge subs just for my trouble, to make a point, and for the trouble it causes other subs, but I wouldn't do that unless I'm getting ready to get rid of that sub. Dealing with subs is just a big chess game, and constantly changing subs doesn't work for building an efficient machine. I did fire a roofer last week though - he just couldn't perform.
This stuff goes both ways too. Since these are slab homes, pipe must be stubbed up through the slab before concrete and framing. The plumbers have had to cut out a few pipes below the slab level (bust out concrete) because of nails the framers shot into them at the bottom plate level...
I've talked to all involved parties several times using the B word. Part of the problem is that these subs all have multiple crews so what I tell one crew probably won't get passed on to another crew. A 'B' to the owner always spreads the word though.
I've been shopping for a new plumber, and been running names by my plumbing inspector but he, in a diplomatic way keeps telling me that I wouldn't be any better off with company 'Y' or company 'Z' than I am with company 'X'. If I want to pay a few grand more per house, I can get a plumbing company with better craftsmanship where the owner works on each house, but I'm not sure the end product would really end up significantly better, and they just can't be as responsive with that small of an operation.
Most of the people here at BT seem to focus on the nuts and bolts of building - which is good. Thing is, there is a whole other layer to this stuff that rarely gets discussed here - which if you are a business man - you understand. I routinely read stuff here like - "yea - you gotta use the gold screws - using nails is just cheap". These guys are still on the 101 level... and you and I both know it. Likewise many subs want to act like their job is the job. But there has got to be one guy on the site who has the whole big picture. In the process I end up as the job site mediator too.
I've read some degrading comments about builders and supers here. One guy referred to the super as the jobsite dog. Another referred to the "white hardhat guys in the trailer" as a bunch of know nothings. The fact is that as a super I have to know something about everybody's job, have about 50 personalities to deal with, etc, etc, etc. And I have to warranty all work, which might mean calling back a sub, or it might mean crawling under the house myself to apply a 20 minute fix. Some guys run a job by stopping by in the afternoon to see what got done and schedule the future crews and material shipment. I'm constantly involved as I feel I can build a far better house that way.
When we have a complaining homeowner write in here to BT how often do we hear "the "plumber did this", the "framer did that". Sometimes, but more often it's "The builder f-ed up the roof", and the "builder drove a siding nails into the waste DWV" blah, blah blah.
So, the backcharge process may not be as simple as it appears, and in reality for every backcharge I do, there probably should have been 5 more. Then, though, I'd be in a situation where every time I asked for something - some more blocking here please - don't put that pipe there because light switch needs to be there etc, etc, there would be extra charges. That is not the way I operate.
From one super to another.. Amen brother.
Can you sister the top plate and bottom chord? All you really need to repair is the tensile strength.
Your intial deflection may be different, but the loads will be carried by the proper systems. They will be bonded at that truss, though.
Slip a metal strap between 'em and make the plumber drill and screw 36 holes on each side of the cut.
Run a chevron of transfer blocks outwards from the top chord over the cut. Two bays on each side outa do it. Put a tension strap on the bottom chord under the transfer blocks.
I'm not an engineer, but I built a doghouse once.
Or twice.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
I've had 5 conversations with the truss company about the situation in the last few days. They have given me 2 repair alternatives. Neither is going to be easy. It is basically to sister the entire span of the floor truss with another 'repair truss' or an LVL. The existing truss is laced with ducts, wires and pipes. During my first conversations with the truss company I suggested steel plate on one side of the truss, and angle sistered to the cut chord on the other, but truss company said they did not do repairs in steel. They suggested maybe find another engineer. I had one look at it and talked to another yesterday. They don't want to touch it because they say that then they would have to be responsible for the entire floor system. The situation is complicated by the facts that this is a girder truss that is carrying the 2 short headers for the stair hole, and this truss forms one of the long sides of the stair hole so if I sister on a 3/4" of plywood like in a normal repair, there will be a 3/4" bump in my sheetrock going up the stairs - not an option. There is no load above this truss other than just the floor, and the stair handrail, but I guess the problem is the 2 stair hole headers, one of which is carrying the stairs. I don't want to get into running repair scenarios here at BT - I'm way beyond that, being that 2 engineers have already looked at it and I've spoken to a third. I have a repair with an engineer's stamp on it from the truss company, but it is going to be a lot of trouble to install.
I've been following your situation and trying to think of something that might help. Don't know that I have any brilliant ideas, but I'll give it a shot.You said this truss is over a non-bearing wall that's on a slab. I wondered if it would be easier to MAKE part of the wall bearing than to do a complicated truss repair. That might take away the need for such extensive repairs and/or simplify them greatly.If you want me to look over the repair drawings and see if I can come up with something else, email me through the board and I'll give it a shot.
Editing is a rewording activity.
Actually, I'm just going to take the route the truss company came up with which is to sister another truss. The worse part of it is all the wires that have to be disconnected. Turns out that the new section of truss is only $35. Seems like they would at least add an exorbitant delivery fee...
BTW - when I said 160 #PLF I was thinking maybe he meant side load. You are right, 160 is like next to nothing for a top load.
"The situation is complicated by the facts that this is a girder truss that is carrying the 2 short headers for the stair hole, and this truss forms one of the long sides of the stair hole. . .laced with ducts, wires and pipes"
Ouch.
Then I'm with Boss, talk to a concrete engineer and get the slab stamped to be the foundation for that non bearing wall. Add a stud each side of the break where the web meets the bottom chord.
Even if you have to break out and pour a 2x2 foot it may be ea$ier than anything else.
BTW, while I heartily disagree with the plumber-as-tradesman for cutting the chord without checking with you first, I do agree with the plumber-as-structural-engineer, the nonbearing wall and slab will carry the minimal load.
Having been (very near) there and done that, I can relate to what you told Framer.SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo <!----><!---->
Or you could just buy a 7 x 11-7/8 Parallam and not fuss with all those
bolts. At this point, it would be good to have a forklift handy.
Boise LVL specs and their Boise Beam-calc program specify a staggered pattern. They seem to recommend the GRK screws, and of course adhesive, at least for some beams.
Next time try these. Fastenmaster trusslok. saves a ton of time. http://www.fastenmaster.com/
I've used TrapEase and TimberLok and liked them.
In this case though the plans call for 1/2" bolts... So, I decide to use something better/faster/whatever. Now I need an engineers letter for the inspector stating that what I used is OK. Hummmmm