How do they do it?? (Knights in FHB)
The most recent FHB Houses issues features the tale of a couple that over the years has designed and built the most wonderful timberframe/stone houses I can imagine. The story says they do all the work (or most of it) themselves, live there for awhile, sell, and do it again. 9 homes and two house boats over 25 years. The homes exhibit the most careful craftsmanship, and by all indications, each place takes quite a bit of time. Hopefully most of you have seen the article. My question is: HOW ON EARTH DO THEY DO IT?? How does one go about structuring their life and finances in such a way as to make that kind of work/lifestyle feasible? I’d really like to know, and would be very interested in hearing from some folks who’ve made a go of it themselves. How do they afford to do it? Do they have an inheritance or supplement their income by doing work for others? Are there ways to structure financing to make it possible? If anyone at FHB knows how to get in touch with the Knights, I’d love to hear how they’ve done it.
Replies
Here's how we did it.
You have no children yelling for attention, $100 Nikes and automobiles.
You have good day jobs that allow a fair amount of discretionary income. You buy the lots with owner financing and minimal down.
You are obsessive-compulsive. You spend every extra moment working on the current project.
When everything's complete...construction, decorating, landscaping......you're bored. It's the doing that's fun....not reveling in the completion.
We've found that when you're doing most of the work yourself....you just can't spend $$ as fast as you make it. An inheritance woulda been nice. The first one is hard. You need enough $$ to secure the lot, get the foundation and rough-ins and maybe close it in...depends. Bank financing really puts pressure on you and reduces the eventual profit. Big expense coming up..like cabinets?...take a break.
Maybe you get the seed $$ by selling your current home and renting.
You spend a lot of time with the finish work. It's only time. You build something unique...something that gets you top $$. Anybody can build a tract house with ho-hum materials.
And with the wonderful new tax law, you live in them two years, pocket the profit and move on. I shudder to think of the capital gains we paid way back when. Still, it was nice to have all that $$ on which to pay tax. First one we sold was for 3 times what we had in it after living in it 6 months.
That's my story....and I'm stickin' to it.
Shelley
Shelley,
You forgot to add that you spend every discretionary dollar on tools and all birthdays and Christmas gifts are tools.
We fixed up our cabin that we bought for 45K and just sold it for 154K. With that money, we're now building a log home that we thought was going to be our permenant dream house, but we're realizing we might be able to make 1/2 million dollars on it, so we might just sell it and do it again.
I think the no kids thing is probably one of the keys to success. Also, it is a lifestyle. You go to your day job, the one that pays the bills and your health insurance, and then you spend every weekend working on the house. Some people would say you have no life, but we enjoy it.
Paula
We've been doing it with kids. Granted, they slow down the process, but they add a balance to our lives and we're showing them the meaning of a work ethic. Remember, it's not achieving the goal that matters, but the process. You have to love the work.Andy Engel, Forum moderator
Check out my profile and the house I built close to single handidly.All (almost) 4ooo sq ft that when anyone walks in the door is speachless since it's finally done. Was a falling down cape before I did it. Its a longgggg story but percerverance and TWO KIDS BY THE WAY....a wife in Real Estate.....part of the process.....and in one of the best school districts in the country. Course I'm wayyyyy exhausted yet I'm still looking to do it again...AT 51..All hands on. If I have the time I'm gonna enter that contest that FHB advertises about doing it on a budget. Bought it for 400000..I think I put in about 200000 and four years later I have had offers of well over a mil....course I'm really exhausted...lol....I need what I need to do the next one in this hood as thats where I want to keep my daughter as shes going into 7th grade and there arent too many better public schools in the country..soooo..its not JUST about house its about hood..schools.etc etc...I expect to get my crib in that issue if I can actuallyl take the pictures this weekend....I'm really exhausted.....whewwww.
BE well
Namaste
Andy (whewwwww)
Edited 4/30/2002 6:23:38 PM ET by ANDY CLIFFORD
Where's your school district?
School district is in Cold Spring HArbor Long Island New York. One of theeeeeeeee best public schools in the usa,,,,, Former hometown to John Lennon, Billy Joel, Harry Chapin, Papa John Phillips.....and the list goes on......wayyyyyyyy far from any Hollywood scence. A REAL town. My wife is a fantastic real estate broker here (one of the honest ones). she spent weeks schlepping Billy Joel around until he bought something way outr east,,,,,no biggie,,nice dude...............well none of anyones biz....sorry. we're 45=50 min to NYC and wanna know what? I'm workin my ass off every single day. My world aint made of any more gold then the teeth in the mouths of the folks in the hills of N Dakota or where ever. Lets all get our sh*t together and meet up and put something together if ya want,,,,,,,ears wide open.
Be Well
Namaste
Andy (the runner)It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
One of my daughter's high school teachers here in Durango, Colorado is also a builder, and a good one. On top of it, he's a righteous human being and a great teacher who loves his job. Don't people like that just drive you nuts?
I met him going to my daughter's conference (yes, they still hold conferences in high school here). We got to talking building, and he says people ask him why he doesn't quit teaching and just build? because he loves to teach, he says. But at the same time, he's on his sixth house for his own family, and what with the tax laws as they are now, says you can't afford not to, and he's right. Still finds time to build custom jobs too.
So even though it's gonna hurt financially for a couple of years, we're going to live in the next house I build and rent this one out. I plan to use that house as a model for some interesting design features, and hope to get a customer for the lot next to that one, which we also own. And then we've got our eye on a killer lot in an unopened phase of the same area, and hope the timing is right to juggle our way into that one, etc.
I think the method of doing this act is different for everyone. You just swallow hard, trust your skills, and go for it. I've always contended that there are two kinds of people ... the doers, and the ones who watch them do it. I'm afraid I'd have to put myself in that second group for most of my life ... in my mid-fifties (going on thirty-five), I'd better wake up and get a plan.
Interesting thread of conversation. Builders need a support system, just like anyone else. Maybe more so, considering one survey rated "contractor" as the second most stressful job out there.
well Bro,
My house is on the market for over a mil but theres no where to go around here in sucha fantastic school distric as we are in sooooo. My wife.....a top real estate broker said te other night to me....Its a big world....duh.....lol......I always wanted to move to Colorado. Know of some intense land in a fantastic area witha great school district? Hows Telluride? Looking to do the next projext to death..specially at 51 and crankin'. Interested? Let me know whats up. Not interested in hoods if ya know what I mean.....Even Aspen or Vail area...where the $$$$$$ is and the area is drop dead gorgous. Andy suggestions?
Be Well
Namaste
Andy http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COMIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Well, I guess I could help you with an opinion, but I don't know about beyond that ...
As far as killer school districts, they're tough to come by in Colorado. I guess I'd say move to Denver and get into the Cherry Creek system. That's where the $$$ are, but you've got to be into urban. Couldn't get me to live in Denver. I love the bright lights big city thing for a few days, then it's back to the sticks (I'm a born urbanite, though).
Here in Durango (oh, by the way, we moved here because we were looking for some place really expensive, but with no jobs), the school system is supposed to be better than the state average, which in turn is supposed to be better than the national average. I think it all means that the national average is pathetic, if we're supposedly somewhere above it.
The problem here comes down to tax $$$ ... there aren't enough to go around for the schools. Doesn't seem to be an important issue to enough people. Only 25% of the people in the district have kids in school. Guess what that means whent they try to float an $85M bond school bond issue this fall.
This is a similar issue in all of the glitzy Colorado towns you mention. They're turning into rich man's retirement communities, populated with those whose line is, "I paid my dues when my own kids were in school." Meanwhile, the locals live in a single-wide 30 miles out, and get bused in to do domestic work.
Regarding the scenery, we've got a ton of it, and a lot of it getting cut up for 6,000 sq. ft. weekenders for the rich folk. How much elbow room do 2 people need? Now don't get me wrong ... I love doing good work, and I enjoy being paid for it, but I'll get out of the business before I get wrapped up in producing trophy homes at the expense of the state, the locals, and the critters.
My next effort is 3200 sq. ft. on a quarter acre here in Durango, which should go for about $450K. KILLER views. I'm having conscience pangs even building this project, when you consider most of the locals here can't consider buying here. The grubbiest 100-year-old falling-down 800 sq. ft. wreck right in town would go for about $175 K. Now for your part of the country, maybe that doesn't sound like a lot. But when you consider the size and location of this town, and 100 like it in the West, and what you get in terms of civilization, services and amenities, that's a bunch of money. Would you believe I'm even campaigning against a builder who wants to be a county commissioner, because I don't believe his personal slant, and believe me, he's got one, is proper in that position. By the way, what was your original question?
But if you want to enter the trophy home world, then Colorado's a great place to be; you might as well do it where the scenery is stunning. And yes, I'd even throw in with the likes of someone with a conscience and an eye for quality. But I'll only build what the local market can bear; the rest is for someone else to do.
Best of luck in your search, and if you come this way, I'd love to get together.
Bruce Williams
The High Desert Group LLC
"Fine homes done right, one at a time"
Good info in this thread.
Self-building is a great way to build wealth, but it sure does put a hammer on your lifestyle.
When I built my house, virtually every free minute I had was spent on site. I didn't do the excavation, foundation, chimneys or drywall, but I did everything else. I busted my arse, but was so involved in the project I really never noticed. The kids were young (3 and 4) and not in school, so they were either at the beach or, more commonly, on site "helping." We had a blast, they actually did "work." Amazingly, we had zero injuries.
It never would have happened without the help of my wife. Now, she did virtually zero work on the house itself...but she ran the paperwork and the phones, and kept the "to-do" list updated. We had no snags and actually came in under budget.
Would I do it again? No. I'd love to, but my body says "no" and my dance card is full. Today, my free time belongs to the kids (now 10 and 11) and the missus. I could see building a small get-away cabin...but never another huge house. Though, if my kids ever go choose to go down that road, I'd love to carry lumber for them. Though, they're laready trying to figure out how they can carve up this house so both their future families can live here. They even had an old set of floor plans and drew dividing lines, separating various rooms into "My side of the house" and "Your side of the house." Pretty funny.<g>
Was it worth it financially? You betcha. Amazingly, I've got about 545K in sweat equity in the house, and that absolutely floors me. Still, the financial incentive to do another doesn't outweigh the time I'd miss with my family. I'm currently the Cub Scout and Girl Scout leader (even at 260 pounds I'm one of the more svelt Girl Scout leaders<g>) as well as coaching baseball and softball this spring.
My wife still loves me, and my kids still think I'm amazing. Life is darn good, and I'm enjoying it.
Andy (Clifford),
Bruce nailed it regarding Colorado. I stumbled on to two adjoining lots in Telluride back in the 1980's. Held them, planned on building. I had a pipe dream of building one for me and one to rent. Then I married, my wife HATED skiiing out there. Sold the lots and rolled that into property near Vail. The schools in Eagle (Vail) are pretty sorry from what I saw. Bruce is bang-on regarding the majority of the non-resident property owners, vs the worker bees that grunt through life on a low wage in a trailer on the outskirts of town. There's a pretty huge economic stratification in those resort towns.
I have an interest in something just outside of Vail now, a 10400 acre ranch that was chopped up a few years ago. As silly as the mega-building is out there, I'm guilty of using a small chunk of it to better my own position.
Vail has great skiing...and I love visiting...but I wouldn't want to live there.
Regarding the Knights and their rolling over of properties...the first one is the hardest. You need to live somewhere nearby while you build. Once you roll your first property, you not only have a bankroll, but a bit of a track record you can show to a lender should you need financial backing with your next project. After a few, you can give up your traditional job and make building your next house your job. Essentially, they're creating nicely crafted future spec houses. Note that most of their houses were pretty small...800-1400 sq feet. The small size helps. They sure look nice, though. Very quaint, full of character. Totally unique and charming. I really like the look. I think they're doing well, and will continue to do well. They ovbiously work well together, and are BOTH committed to the process. It WOULD NOT WORK if either spouse got tired of the process.
Mongo.....I aint moving to a place thats JUST about money. Thats not where I'm at at all. At 51 and after doing a really intense project that will yield me a whole lotta dough and at 51 with a whole lot of energy still left and an idea thats KILLER I think I'm stayin' in the NY area. Have this totally intense idea that I KNOW would work. Up in the town of Woodstock NY which aint cheap and aint packed with freaks (cept on the summer wknds). Its pretty affluent and very desirable as its only an hour and a half north of Manhatten ( a true high end, conscious art community). So I've been in touch with brokers for primo land atop the mtn. Thing is I need to find a great school district for my daughter and seemed to have found a real good alternitive school up there that goes through High school.....Check out the websites for reality companies up there and the pix of land for sale...wow
BE well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Can't you find excellent private schools in a place you'd love to live? Please tell me you aren't limiting yourself to the public systems if you don't have to.
Chapel Hill, NC has a lot of the qualities you'd like in a home area, but the geographic beauty is subtler than Colorado. But you'd be two hours from the beach and three from the Blue Ridge.You can choose to be part of the solution, or part of the problem. Or like me, you can be an overachiever, and do both.
Andy,
And there's the rub...finding a good school district. I live in one of the best for this state, and it really was good...until I spent a whole lot of time in the classroom.
Then I found out that even the best schools can be better. I'd go in about three days a week for a few hours a day for various programs and see the waste.
So...we now homeschool. Been doing it for a few years. It is, by far, the best academically for the kids. My daughter misses the social setting, my son gets enough of that outside with his friends. She's going to private school next year, and that school, is without a doubt, top-notch. Not the greatest in terms of fancy facilities, but in academics, in one-on-one instruction, in the attitude that is prevalent in the classrooms and hallways...it's a primo place to live and learn. A small school, small classes, and, unfortunately, a high price tag.
I look at it as an investment in my daughter.
When I moved back to the northeast, I looked in to the upper Hudson River valley. Sweet. Had to take a pass, though, and opted for CT instead. The state has improved dramatically since I moved here, though...ever since we kicked Martha Stewart out and sent her packing to your neighborhood.<g>
Mongo
My question was basically......I'd love to move to a drop dead gorgous and conscious area of the country where I can do my craft and get paid for it by doing basically one spec house at a time as I've done here. With well thought out plans,,,enviormentally friendly as well as awesome design. Thats it! Just want my organic veggie garden in the back of my house and time to work it along with my furnature projects etc etc etc..you get the drift. Have a feeling I'm hangin around here....Maybe California (north) is the place to go as Jed Clampett said..lol
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Yeah, sorry I got off on a tangent. You didn't need to be on the receiving end of my diatribe. Your messages all say your heart's in the right place. My best to you, and do give me a holler if you come this way!
B
No problem. One reason I want a great school district is because that makes whatever I build or renovate worth a whole lot more. For instance,,right now the school district my daughter is in is rated in the top 20 for the whole country, hence this house I built will sell for over a mil easily but if I moved it a few blocks north into the other school district I'd be lucky to get 600000 for it so....Problem is the taxes are killing me so ya cant have your cake and eat it too. Whatever that stupid saying means...lol. I would send my daughter to a good private alternative ed school. Actually yearsssss ago I was part of a small staff that ran a Free School similar to
A.S Neils Summerhill..only our school was a whole lot freer. Did that for 12 years till I finally needed more money...hence Andybuildz
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Why not SoCal ILO NoCal, We got some drop dead gorgous places here. its not at all like the L.A. you see on the nerws and TV. Orange County, Dan Diego , Ventura are all nice places... Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Thats also how we are collecting our rentals. One thing to add about kids. We are raising a 7 year old also. He works with us all the time and has a ball. He doesnt know any better yet. shhh!!!!!!!!!!! He has learned a lot more than any other kid that has come to cubscout meetings. He does a fair job at nailing right now. Hes learning to read a tape. Its better than playing with toys, and he enjoys it because I take time to teach him. He sure hasnt been a draw back , a big help is more like it. By the way hes our grandchild we are raising.
Don't be naive about doing this sort of thing with kids, especially if they are teens or pre-teens. It WILL take a lot of time that you could (should?) be spending with them doing things THEY enjoy. Certainly a nice home is something they will have fond memories of later in life, but those memories will NOT be about the "porch my dad built" but rather about "swinging on the front porch with my dad." The house is your dream.... not theirs. Either start when they are very young, or wait until they have left the nest. You only have them for 18 years or so, then they'll be gone for the next 40.
They'll let you know when it's not what they want to do. I'm pretty tough but there is no way that I will work with a reluctant teen. I give my kids an opportunity to earn a little money when they have off from school. I use a modified piecework system and they can earn a fair wage if they work hard but one short day a month is about all they are interested in. They have learned a little and in addition are motivated to study hard in school so they don't have to follow the old man's footsteps.
I disagree with both of you. But thats ok right
Tj is in cub scouts and that is what it is about . We do things together. On the other hand there is pay involved at the job. He is learning things that will be with him the rest of his life . I know . I am a product of a single parent dad who raised me on the job. I owe my ability to make a living to him. When people say something about all the things I do, Im first to give my late dad the credit. It was the best gift he ever gave me , whether it was the way I chose to make a living or not. I was also payed well, in money to buy what ever I wanted really. First thing was a pocket watch, then a barlow knife, right up to a new pickup in 10th grade. Yes I made the payments . When I graduated from high school, I was a top hand. Im not bragging on me , Im bragging on him. Im glad he took the time with me to teach me what he knew. I will treasure it forever. They were good times spent together.
Tim Mooney
Edited 5/1/2002 8:12:14 AM ET by Tim Mooney
I think it's important for kids to see real work being done, for it to be a part of their lives. Sure, my kids play baseball and all of us are active in Scouts. They also work on the house, sometimes even though they don't want to. Sometimes I pay 'em, sometimes not. I realize the house is my dream, but hey, they live there too and it's important even for kids to have a sense of pulling their weight. It's about balance. In the end, I think that growing up with a work ethic, and maybe some construction knowledge, is far more important in life than say, having become a great Little League pitcher.
Andy Engel, Forum moderator
Edited 5/1/2002 9:01:46 AM ET by ANDYENGEL
PS: Started a boy scout troop during final stage of building the house -- being a scoutmaster is something that really eats up a lot of time and weekends.
100% agree with Andy, not much to remember about little league, definetely not in the same class as remembering building stuff with my dad.
I agree that sweat equity can pay dig dividends, but I think you have to enjoy investing the sweat. If you enjoy building, it doesn't seem like work. If you don't enjoy the process, I don't know how good the project will come out, thereby affecting worth. I think I could only stand to work nights and weekends at something I really liked, whether it be building, working at a computer, gardening, whatever...the "profit" from that work is really just a byproduct of following your passion.
About the kids working thing...scouting is good, baseball is good, working with your folks is good, fishing or going to the library together, anything you do together with a good heart is good. But when either the parent or the child is doing something they don't enjoy, but do it anyway out of some sense of obligation, I think that can lead to resentment and real problems in the relationship.
Ive been spending alot of time in the garage lately building my kitchen cabs. I havent been spending alot of time with my kids as a result of it yesterday , I got a note from my boys teacher saying he was disruptive in class trying to get attention by joking ect. Well that was it for me. If felt guilty nt spending the time he needs with him. Now he's outin the garage with me "helping me" Hes 8 y.o.. So now Im makinng him feel part of whats going on. Even if he cant realy do much but pick this or that up and hand me things Hes getting attention from me. Yesterday we were discussing how to use and read a tape measure. It is something they were studying in school. But now hes getting real life experiance with one. Im makeing it a rule " When Im out there hes out there". Sunday whether he wants to or not He's going to the WoodWorking Show with me. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Sent my "budget" submital in last weekend.
Built first 100% on our own with 2 kids when we were 25 YO. 80 hr weeks, vacations were building, little or no TV, no movies, etc. 5000 sq ft cost us $15K, now assessed at over 500K.
However, no one else mentioned one drawback, injuries. The 2 weeks I once spent in the hospital from dropping a tree on my head, or 157 stiches at once one other time, forestalled full time building. Accident susceptible genes - one grandfather died falling off a ladder. You only live once, but wife wanted me around longer than she thought I'd be if I did building full time alone.
Tim, hooray for you! Dw and are also adoptive grandparents. I couldn't agree more about working and playing with your kids, or in our case grandchild. Way back, durring my first marriage, I went into the remodeling buisness. My son was about 7 at the time, and when he wasn't in school, he was with me. He also became an Eagle Scout, got a full ride AFROTC scholarship, and as he approaches 34 years old, is soon to be a Major in the USAF. He also owns homes in Colrado Springs and DC. In many ways I think he learned better than I thought I was teaching. The highest compliment I have ever been given was when he told me "Dad you taught me to always be honest,work hard, and do everything I can on my own." A classroom is wherever there is a oppotunity to teach. It can be in a pickup truck, on a soccer field, a pup tent in the woods, or the local school.
Dave
We have built and sold 5 homes 4 of them before the kids were in school. The last one we stayed in for 7 years so the kids could stay in the same elementary school now that they are both going into middle school and high school we have bought a fixer upper in the area of the new schools. Will be our first time renovating as we have always built new homes in the past. As for getting started at flipping houses the first lot we bought the developer handed over the lot on an IOU from us that we would pay for the lot when we sold the home, which we sold 6 months after completion.