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How many fasteners do you shoot per minute?
In order to determine the air output needed to operate a given nailer, you have to know it’s consumption per fastener at a given pressure (available in the owner’s manual), and you must estimate the number of fasteners that will be driven per minute.
This is where I could use a little help. I’ve been talking with tool manufacturers and the numbers I’m getting don’t ring true. One company told me that for a finish nailer, a framing nailer and a roofing gun, I should calculate 60-fasteners per minute or 1-nail per second. I might make that if I’m nailing off floor deck, but framing walls or running interior trim; I don’t think so. Likewise a good roofer might get 60-fasteners per minute on a straight run of asphalt shingles, but I just can’t buy 1 per second as a “common” production rate.
What do you folks think a reasonable average fastener per minute rate might be for each of the tools: finish, framing and roofing? And can anyone point me toward any published data on this?
I know this is a slippery topic. Everyone works at a different rate of speed, and that rate will depend on the task at hand. I’m hoping I can find some reasonable data, and/or come to some consensus among professionals to support a number without turning this into a science project.
Thank you in advance for your input.
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Simplify and other things........... (post #205510, reply #1 of 37)
Ok, what if you get a splitter and use two guns at a time?
I work alone, so here-
Underlay-the fastest nailing schedule I'm used to-a single tank not small pancake can handle it, but runs alot. A two tank old emglo does just fine. That's for a narrow crown stapler, sure not the puff size of a framer shooting subfloor down.-the emglo does just fine.
For all framing I do, the pancake does just fine-Small additions, porches that sort of thing. The emglo does even better and usually I leave it right in the truck-run hose rather than lug the thing.
For small framing-basement-single wall, furring-a flat sitting Dewalt Emglo. This for finish initially, but push it a bit when ease of carrying is the key- Finish and light frame-just fine. Underlay and subfloor-no way.
I let others do roofs. The last one I did I hand nailed.
Keep me on the ground floor. I don't like basements, can't stand 2nd floors and absolutely refuse roofs. Just old and set in my ways.
I started with the 2 tank emglo which did all I intended for it to do-even with a splitter on occasion-never ran a crew off it.
Then the pancake-it was lighter and did all that was asked of it.
Finally, to save myself I bought the little emglo-one of the best purchases I've made-light quiet and doesn't tip over like some of the mini's.
So, there's more to it than cfm and nails per minute.
Best of luck.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thank you (post #205510, reply #2 of 37)
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question.
I’m a framing carpenter/contractor by trade. I’ve always run large crews. My solution has been to buy the biggest, ugliest compressor I could find and I have rarely been disappointed with this approach.
But if someone asks me to help them choose a compressor, and budget is a concern, I need to be able to give them something more concrete.
The formula for calculating CFM requirements is not complex, but pinning down this one figure (how many nails per minute) is proving to be a real challenge. You’d think the nail gun companies would have done studies on this in order to design their tools. They should have guidelines for each application (finish, framing, roofing, etc.), but so far I haven’t been able to locate any thing useful.
m (post #205510, reply #3 of 37)
That's why I wrote what I did............I did no cfm study, my first compressor I got the most portable yet powerful enough to do the job (which I consulted with my now 40 yr tool supplier ). I took his advice and it's worked thus far. Same with the other two compressors-I don't burn 'em up like larger or less "careful" operations might.
So, qualify your need, seek advice from a trusted supplier (you bet they hear back from less than satisfied users), maybe ask a GOOD gun rep..................not just the sales guy.
Hope my experience helped you out-if you want model numbers I'll have to poke around the van and shop.
And welcome to Breaktime.
Stick around, experience counts in this forum.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I have a 1HP (calls itself 4, (post #205510, reply #4 of 37)
I have a 1HP (calls itself 4, 1 is closer to actual) that kept 3 roofers going as fast as they go and that is at least 180-200 shots per minute when they are rolling. We get 6 nails per shingle and they sound like machine guns when tiey set those 6 nails.
The things that do tax my compressor are air chisels, paint sprayers and a DA sander.
If you're a carp by trade, (post #205510, reply #5 of 37)
If you're a carp by trade, you should be able to do a thumb suck on the rates for most activities (and also evalate the person asking as whether they're apt to be faster or slower than normal).
My (completely non-professional) thumb suck would be that roofers (probably the nailing speed champs) can do about 90/minute for 30 seconds, and maybe 60/minute averaged over a period several minutes. (Depends on whether they have someone else spotting the shingles, etc.) Next would be the various types of sheathing work, running 30-60/minute for short spurts but probably averaging below 15/minute over 5-10 minutes. With framing you might shoot 4 nails in quick succession but then likely no more for 5-10 seconds, averaging below 15/minute over several minutes.
But then that's just my thumb suck (from vague memory), and I'm certainly not a pro.
We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. --Thomas Edison
There are lots of variables you can't account for in formulae. (post #205510, reply #6 of 37)
like worn tools, leaks in fittings, dual usage, ec.
But in practical terms any compressor that provides 4.5-6CFM will work fin e for any one man one gun setup.
It is when you start spraying paint or running a whole crew of roofers that you get into greater needs to worry about
or try this site for the whole gang
http://forums.delphiforums.com/breaktimeclass/start
Construction men are (post #205510, reply #7 of 37)
Construction men are notorious for exaggerating the speed of their work. Let's take the 60 fasteners per minute for a roofer. At that rate, the roofer would be installing 15 shingles per minute (at four nails per shingle). Over one hour, he'd install 900 shingles. The roof I worked on last week had 48 shingles to a square (three 18-shingle bundles per square). If you divide the 900 shingles by 48, the total number of squares per hour would be 18.75. This is more than many houses require.
Nobody achieves this level of productivity. If they did, they'd be making about $375 an hour (at $20 per square). Of course, a roofer can fire a nail per second. Before he nails down each shingle, however, he has to line it up. After four nails, he has to line up another shingle. Then, all through the day, he has to stop to fetch shingles, get up and walk to the bottom of the roof to start a new course, cut around pipes, lay out new sections, flash walls and so on. In this stop-and-go pattern, a roofer does well to lay 18.75 squares in a day on an easy, straight-run roof. In fact, he'd do well to install that many shingles with a full-time helper. At that pace, the roofer would put about 2 nails per minute over the course of the day.
But, to size a compressor, (post #205510, reply #8 of 37)
But, to size a compressor, you don't want to know how many nails can be driven in an hour, you want to know how many can be driven in a burst lasting maybe 2-3 minutes -- some time period beyond the capacity of the tank alone. Many roofers either spot the shingles for an area first and then nail the bunch in a burst, or else have a peon spotting the shingles for them. So driving 120 nails in 2 minutes is not at all an extreme possiblity.
We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. --Thomas Edison
That is right! (post #205510, reply #10 of 37)
If you are six-nailing, and the air supply runs out on the fifth nail each time, you are undersupplied.
But that is usually more because of leaks in the line or too long of a hose restricting flow.
or try this site for the whole gang
http://forums.delphiforums.com/breaktimeclass/start
“Cause I been doin’ this thirty five years and I know.” (post #205510, reply #11 of 37)
It’s really an interesting question. Not the nails per minute, but how to size a compressor. Those of us who’ve spent our lives in the trades have a good feel for what we need, but when someone asks, “why?” or “how did you figure that?” it can be a challenge to explain.
When I’m not beating nails, I’m a volunteer firefighter. The other night at training we watched a film where a firefighter lost his life. At the end of the film we reviewed what we’d seen. One of our captains starting raving about how the officer in charge should have done this and that. A bubby of mine, respectfully ask him why? How do you know that’s what the officer should have done? The captain spit and sputtered and said “Cause I been doin’ this thirty five years and I know.”
Ok. He probably does know. Just like you and I know how to pick a compressor, but that’s a really poor answer to a legitimate question. People don’t learn from “cause I said so’s.”
Thank you guys for all the feedback. It’s very helpful and greatly appreciated.
Merry Christmas!
Thanks, Dan H, for explaining (post #205510, reply #14 of 37)
Thanks, Dan H, for explaining how roofers work. I've only been installing shingle roofs since 1967, so I'm always interested in how the pros do it.
My father was a roofing contractor and I, along with my five brothers, all worked for him. Over the years, we installed acres of roofing. We never laid out an area of shingles and then nailed them all at once and I never once saw a roofer do it that way. Perhaps it's because the shingles would invariably move before they were nailed. You see, being installed on an inclined surface, the shingles tend to slide downhill. As a young roofer, I tried running two courses up at once on a roof with a mild slope. I found this to be inefficient and physically more difficult. It required more moving and reaching and it was more difficult to keep the shingles from moving. One shingle is 3-ft. to 1m long and all the nails are within reach from a sitting or kneeling position; two shingles are 6-ft. to 2m long and it's necessary to stand to reach all the nails.
Nor do roofers typically work in tandem. This is because it's not cost-effective. The nailer has to wait for the "spotter" to place the shingle before he nails it off. Then he has to wait for the next shingle. In every crew I ever worked in the helpers hauled shingles and when they got ahead of the crew they nailed shingles, slowly at first but increasing in speed with practice.
Shingle roofs go on one shingle at a time. After each four or, in Florida, six nails, the roofer picks up another shingle, aligns it, and then fires another four or six nails. This is a pattern of work that I've followed for over forty years; I can just about do it in my sleep. From experience, I can say it is very unlikely that any roofer is going to shoot 120 nails in two minutes.
I never said the shingles (post #205510, reply #18 of 37)
I never said the shingles were accurately positioned in advance, I said "spotted". And I've watched professional roofers working with one guy nailing one spotting, and it's bing-bing-bing-bing in maybe 1.5 seconds, then a brief pause of less than a second to move the next shingle to final position, then bing-bing-bing-bing again. I've never stood there with a stopwatch to see how fast it goes, but it's amazingly fast. And, as I said, my numbers were a 'thumb suck", based on my recollections of watching pros work.
Certainly over a period of an hour, or even ten minutes, that pace will not be maintained. But the compressor needs to be able to handle the maximum burst rate without running short of air, either by having a big enough tank or by having enough compressor capacity.
We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. --Thomas Edison
DH, you don't know when to (post #205510, reply #19 of 37)
DH, you don't know when to give up. One shingle every 2.5 seconds would be 24 shingles in a minute. In six minutes, the roofer and his "spotter" would have 144 shingles nailed down, which is over two square of architectural shingles. Even over the short run, the numbers you insist on are ludicrous.
And you didn't bother to read (post #205510, reply #20 of 37)
And you didn't bother to read what I said.
We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. --Thomas Edison
Dan H, I read what you wrote (post #205510, reply #28 of 37)
Dan H, I read what you wrote and it was wrong. Here's what you wrote in your first post:
"My (completely non-professional) thumb suck would be that roofers (probably the nailing speed champs) can do about 90/minute for 30 seconds, and maybe 60/minute averaged over a period several minutes."
From what dark place did you pull those numbers? They are divorced from reality and, no matter what scenario you come up with, they are ludicrous.
Catfish said that he can run a 22-shingle bundle, at 6 nails to the shingle, in 3 minutes. I have my doubts about that claim, mainly because if you extend it out for sixty minutes, he would be putting on 6 2/3 squares of shingles, six-nailed, in one hour. This is a level of productivity that I have never seen any roofer anywhere come close to.
But let's give Catfish the benefit of the doubt. Presumably, the roof would be 5-in-12 or less in pitch (so that he or a helper could spread the shingles in advance) and, as he said, it would be a straight run with no pipes or vents to slow down productivity. In short, the conditions would have to be ideal for him to run a bundle in three minutes. Needless to say, very little actual roofing meets these ideal conditions.
If Catfish found himself working under those conditions, however, and was able to work at the pace he claims, he would be firing 132 nails in three minutes, which works out to 44 nails a minute. If he were four-nailing (which is a far more common nailing schedule) he'd have to pick up and align 33 shingles per 132 nails and so the number of nails per minute would drop. I would estimate that it would fall about 25% and that he'd be firing 33 nails per minute.
Even when roofers are working in a frenzy under ideal conditions, they don't fire nearly as many nails as you said--even over the course of three minutes. In fact, roofers rarely, if ever, nail half as many nails per minute as you said.
I don't understand why you offered the original poster a "completely non-professional, thumb suck" guess in the first place. If you don't know the answer, what's the point in guessing? Even harder for me to understand is why you have so vigorously defended your guess. You don't know; you have nothing to base your opinion on and you're differing with me, a seasoned roofer who will be back up on a roof on Wednesday with a nail gun in his hand.
The more I think about it I (post #205510, reply #23 of 37)
The more I think about it I bet framing carpenters nailing down roof sheathing shoot more nails but it is still not that big a load on a compressor.
deleted post (post #205510, reply #26 of 37)
deleted post
I agree. You can attach (post #205510, reply #25 of 37)
I agree. You can attach several sheets of sheathing minimally and then go back later and nail it off. Shingle roofs have to be installed one shingle at a time.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is the necessity to stop and reload the gun. I just counted the number of nails in a coil for my Hitachi roofing nailer. I counted 118 nails in a coil. My Makita framing nailer holds about 96 8d nails. This means that anyone who is shooting 60 fasteners per minute could not do so for more that two minutes at a time because they would have to stop every two minutes to reload. Of course, we could come up with a scenario where two guns are used and a helper keeps the reloading the guns. I've seen this technique used in several John Wayne movies.
This means that anyone who is (post #205510, reply #31 of 37)
This means that anyone who is shooting 60 fasteners per minute could not do so for more that two minutes at a time because they would have to stop every two minutes to reload.
Once again, you completely missed the point. When sizing a compressor you want to know the maximum rate that nails will be fired in a short period of time -- a time period where the compressor tank will be exhausted and the compressor will need to recharge it, but no longer. How many nails will be shot in an hour or a day is not the issue.
We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. --Thomas Edison
Once again, you didn't read (post #205510, reply #24 of 37)
Once again, you didn't read it: "My (completely non-professional) thumb suck". That means that it was a estimate, based on sketchy information. I explained my methodology, but I see no need to defend the validity of the actual number beyond that.
The OP wasn't getting any actual estimates, so I thought it worthwhile to produce one (with full disclosure) to help facilitate discussion. You saw fit to criticize, but you never actually supplied your own "professional" estimate.
We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. --Thomas Edison
Once again, I read what you (post #205510, reply #27 of 37)
Once again, I read what you wrote and you were wrong. Your estimate for the number of fasteners a roofer shoots was ridiculously high and it has been pretty easy to demonstrate why it was not even feasible. Instead of just conceding that simple point, you've come up with farfetched scenarios to support your numbers. For some reason, you seem to be unable to admit that you were wrong.
The fact that I wasn't quite clear about terms such as thumb suck and spotting shingles has nothing to do with your absurd estimate. It has everything to do with your ability to communicate. Believe it or not, a lot of people (including myself up to this week) have never heard the expression thumb suck and that those that have may not be aware that it means an estimate, based on sketchy information as opposed to a guess. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Nor do people automatically know what is meant by spotting shingles. It is not a widely used term and it could mean several things, including lining up the shingles or placing them within reach. The fact that you meant the latter, while I assumed the former doesn't mean that I didn't bother to read what you wrote. It means I didn't quite get what you were saying. In any event, it has no bearing on the subject at hand. Tomorrow, when I'm on the low-pitch roof that I'm doing, I'll spread shingles in advance, then I'll nail them on one at a time. I'll be going at the same speed as I would if a helper had spread the shingles.
Hi Mud (post #205510, reply #32 of 37)
"Catfish said that he can run a 22-shingle bundle, at 6 nails to the shingle, in 3 minutes. I have my doubts about that claim, mainly because if you extend it out for sixty minutes, he would be putting on 6 2/3 squares of shingles, six-nailed, in one hour. This is a level of productivity that I have never seen any roofer anywhere come close to."
I have seen two roofers who could lay six square of three tabs an hour under ideal circumstances for a couple of hours at a time. That was hand nailing. Their pace falls off to 4sq/hr for a whole day. and some of them snuck in a lot of three nailing
Needless to say, their quality of work was not the best, inspite of how amazing it was to watch them nail. One of them did teach me a couple hatchet handling tricks to save time and energy.
Shingling competitions have shown it possible for many shinglers to run a rate over six sq/hr.
I was considered fairly fast once I got the hang of it, but my BEST rate was jjust a hair over 4/hr
I am not trying to back Dan up here, just adding a bit of accuracy to the numbers.
"I don't understand why you offered the original poster a "completely non-professional, thumb suck" guess in the first place."
That is because that is what Dan does, suck his thumb here a lot. He apparently feels compelled to answer nearly every thread without regard to whether he has anything substantive to add. The real mystery is why he argues his point even after being disproven. Perhaps his OCD meds need adjustment. Until his Doc takes care of that, all we can do is grin and bear it. But that is unfortunate for tose poor souls coming here in expectation of any sort of valuable information
That aside, the general idea he seems to have tried to get across is that the compresor does not need to supply air at full rate on a continuing basis, so theperformance numbers on spec charts are really only a guideline to a customer looking to purchase one
or try this site for the whole gang
http://forums.delphiforums.com/breaktimeclass/start
II think the point is even a (post #205510, reply #21 of 37)
II think the point is even a fairly modest compressor will keep nail guns going.at a pretty good clip. One guy going at a normal pace with a framing nailer could not overwhelm one of those tire inflators if it had a supplemental air tank (like a freon tank sized thing). I did all the trim in a house with an 18ga finish nailer running on a 20# bevco CO2 tank and did not noticably change the weight.
true, but an 18ga finish (post #205510, reply #33 of 37)
true, but an 18ga finish nailer uses only 15-25% of the volume of air that a framer does, per nail.
or try this site for the whole gang
http://forums.delphiforums.com/breaktimeclass/start
You make good points in (post #205510, reply #9 of 37)
You make good points in general. Mostly in relation to needed CFM required on a pratiocal basis.
But yoiur figures are slightly off. I would regularly run shingles at over two square per hour all day lomng. Fast rate 4sq/hr on easy runs for a shoirter period of time.
That was hand nailing
so "a roofer does well to lay 18.75 squares in a day on an easy, straight-run roof" is not all that meaningful to me. 16sq per day at hand nailing was considered normal, not doing well. my pard and I did over a hundred roofs at 31-32 squares hand nailed and we got done at 1-2 o'clock every day
I worked on a crew that could lay over 60sq/day with three men - two placing and one nailing with the gun.
or try this site for the whole gang
http://forums.delphiforums.com/breaktimeclass/start
Great information (post #205510, reply #12 of 37)
Great information. “60sq/day with three men - two placing and one nailing with the gun.”
I don’t know much about roofing, so forgive me if these are dumb questions.
Can you tell me how many nails per shingle?
And how many shingles per square?
Thanks again.
Strangely enuf, I never (post #205510, reply #15 of 37)
Strangely enuf, I never counted how many shingles per sq. Somebody above mentions that.
My high speed rates were always four nailing on a walk on larger area.
or try this site for the whole gang
http://forums.delphiforums.com/breaktimeclass/start
Standard 36-in. three-tab (post #205510, reply #17 of 37)
Standard 36-in. three-tab shingles have 81 shingles per square. In most of the country, four nails per shingle are required. Therefore, 324 nails are required per square. In Florida and other areas where extreme wind events are expected, six nails per shingle are required, which comes to 486 per square.
Architectural shingles are often 1m ((39 3/8-in.) long and about .33m (13 1/4-in.) high. Being bigger, they require fewer shingles per square and, thus, fewer nails. The shingles I'm presently using, Certainteed Landmarks, have 66 shingles per square and, at 4 nails per shingle, require 264 nails per square. (In my first post, I mistakenly said they had 48 shingles per square).
Working at a very brisk pace and under favorable conditions, a roofer might install 3 squares in an hour. With architectural shingles, that would be 792 nails in an hour, which works out to 13 nails per minute.
I run a bundle of shingles, (post #205510, reply #22 of 37)
I run a bundle of shingles, about 22, in 3 minutes 6 nailing. That doesn't include other code compliance issues, just on a strait run.
I can't answer your question directly.... (post #205510, reply #13 of 37)
I am in the final stages of building my own houe, and I have been very happy with the Porter Cable 6 gallon pancake compressor I bought when we started our house. I am not a professional, but I have done all the work on this house myself (with lots of help from gullible family and friends).
We ran two framing hammers at the same time, and the only time we ran short of air was when both of us were working on headers, jack and kings at the same time. For most framing, you line a stud, shoot three nails, line a stud... Even when we did run short of air, we just stood up to stretch for about 30 seconds, and we were good to go. I am not quick enough to run that compressor out of air with only one framer.
We ran two roofing hammers, and never had an issue. We usually had one person nailing nice straight rows, one person making and nailing all the fussy cuts, end cuts, penetrations, etc. and a third person spreading shingles out for the nailers. Again we aren't professionals, but not slowpokes either.
Sheathing (1/2" crown stapler) was no problem for me with this compressor. I was doing it all by myself, so there was some down time to grab a new sheet, line it up and start stapling. I did the 4x8 sheets as fast as I was able without ever running out of air.
One thing that we did do was invest in a good 3/8" (50 foot)hose to come off the compressor with before splitting to two 1/4" hoses (also 50 foot). For one project, I had 150 foot of 1/4" hose using a framing hammer, and I could hear that it took a half second for the nailer to get pressured up after each shot. Not the compressor's fault, just a long run run of hose through several sharp bends that might have reduced the flow of air.