…or am I just an ignorant homeowner? A couple of days ago I posted a question about the number of PEX fittings the plumbers are putting in the walls and ceilings of our new house. Subsequently, I commented about the pathetic competence level of all of the tradespeople that we have interacted with on this project and was asked to give some examples. My response generated a lot of interest, and I have been encouraged to re-post my little manifesto under a new heading for others to enjoy/ disparage/ ridicule. Here it is with a few mods:
___________________________________________________________________
Well, since you asked…Yes, I am the GC, but not because I want to be. We originally hired a “custom home builder” out of Chapel Hill that was recommended to us by the architect that charged us $2000 to trace our plans and put his stamp on them. Like fools, we had a cost plus contract and thought that the builder was experienced enough to accurately estimate what the actual costs would be. Here are the things that led to his firing:
1. Gee, there’s a lot of rocks in the ground. Instead of bringing in the appropriate equipment, the GC has his guy piddle around for two weeks digging the footings with the GC’s backhoe. Footings end up $10,000 over budget. In retrospect, we should have fired the guy then, but we were excited about finally having a house…
2. GC doesn’t bother to check the foundation for square. The masons don’t bother either. Back corner of house ends up out of line by 4 1/2″. GC’s framers notice it while framing deck, don’t tell anybody, and frame the deck to match. Masons meanwhile brick up to sill level. After discovering this we have to demolish the brick wall (about 6′ tall, 25 feet long) on that side of the house, scab tapered framing members to the rim joist to cantilever it out, rebuild the brick wall, and infill behind the brick with rubble and mortar. We ask the GC to please try to spend more time on the site.
3. We’re living in a mobile home on the site, so we see everything. “Wow” we say, “the framers must be hard workers–they arrive promptly at 7am”. But wait, they sit in their trucks drinking coffee and shooting the breeze for almost an hour every morning. And the GC doesn’t show up until 10 or 11, if at all. Oh well, as long as they do a good job. Then we get the first bill and see that we have been paying them lavishly to take their time waking up. We complain to the GC and he credits us $1000 and reads the framers the riot act. We URGE the GC to spend more time on the site.
4. The framers can’t manage to construct a 12/12 pitch roof. They frame and raise the gable ends first, then install all of the intermediate rafter pairs. When I come home from work I immediately notice that the gable end peaks are 3 or 4 inches lower than the rafter peaks. When I asked why, I get the CLASSIC (oh, so classic. I wish I had snapped a picture to post here) dumb looks. Well, I guess they forgot to check the gable peaks for square while they were still laying on the deck. I had to cut them a stack of long, tapered 2x4s so they could shim up the gable ends to the correct pitch. That was fun.
5. The framers “forgot it was going to be a brick house” (there were cubes of brick all over the place) and make all of the roof overhangs 4″ too short. I later have to scab on extensions all around the roof perimeter and have to do days of work shimming and fudging to get get the fascia widths consistent. The GC insists that his framers are “capable”. We BEG him to spend more time on the site.
6. The framers frame the main stairwell 3 feet too short. Duh, “we misread the blueprints”. I walk in and immediately see that there was no way a set of stairs was going to fit in there. They didn’t notice anything wrong. Rip it out and do it over at our expense. We ask the GC “What the hell is going on?” He assures us his men are capable capable, capable and that I’m getting too worked up over it. “YOU NEED TO BE HERE MORE”, I say. Apparently he has something more lucrative going on elsewhere.
7. The house has 5 doghouse dormers. The framers frame the roofs so that the rafter ends rest on the 1/2″ roof sheathing with no support below. When I question this, I get the classic “We always do it that way. It will be fine”, with the stongly implied “You’re just a homeowner. What the hell do you know?”. Well, I’m also an engineer and I’m not an idiot. I made them install supports beneath the rafter ends.
Then we hire a lawyer, at our expense, to write up an agreement to terminate the contract. GC signs it and admits he was afraid we would sue him.
After that crew (dubbed “the idiots” by my wife) was dismissed I hired three more sets of carpenters at various times to help me finish the framing, and they were all as bad as the first. Nothing plumb or level. Can’t figure out how to frame the hipped roof on the porch, so I end up doing it. Use triple 2×10 girders along eaves of one porch, doubled 2×12 girder on other porch. Gee, that will look nice. I rip out the 2x12s and replace w/ 2x10s. Very pleasant job, 15 feet up in the air. They forget that there will be a subfascia and fascia at the end of the rafter tails, so it’s impossible to line up the fascias where the porch roof meets main house roof. Rafter tail cuts are mysteriosly way out of plumb and level. Later rip porch roof off and redo, with me providing them with a pattern rafter. When I replace the tar paper that immediately blew off because the original crew used 15# with staples instead of the 30# with button caps that I requested, I find the roof and wall sheathing was nailed off completely randomly. I ask the current bunch of framers if they know what the code nail spacing is, and they can’t tell me what the code says. I added probably 2000 nails to the sheathing with my nailer during the course of the framing. Found long stretches of un-nailed sheathing on the roof that they just forgot to do. Now I just recently noticed that the stairs have to be ripped out and re-done because the rises are so inconsistant they don’t meet code. I’ll do it myself, as I wouldn’t even consider having any of the framers we used back on my property.
The whole time, I am amazed that the framers (all of them) cannot cut a straight line with a circular saw if their life depended on it. I have a chopsaw and stand in the house, and beg them to use it. “It’s only rough framing”, they say. “Please use the chopsaw” I say.
Thank God, the “carpenters” are all gone now. I am now personally doing all of the exterior trim and remaining framing. My wife has had the patience of a saint. She is a nurse and often comments “If I did my work the way these idiots work, the hallways in the hospital would be littered with dead patients.”
And then the masons. Ah, masons. I don’t mean to insult the good masons that must be out there somewhere, but based on my limited experience with North Carolina masons there is no lower form of life on the planet. The first crew, hired by the original GC, is the one that forgot to check the foundation for square. They also got the piers in the wrong places and put the foundation vents in one course too high. They also consistently failed to keep their strings tight, so every long run of block and brick that they did has a sag in the middle. They layed the first course of block on top of ice and mud until I stopped them and made them clean off the footings. They threw all of their trash into the woods surrounding the house and dumped mortar on the rock outcroppings. They were not invited to come back. The second crew, hired by me to do the bulk of the brick veneer, were Mexicans. They were very hard workers and very pleasant people to have around. Unfortunately, they knew NOTHING about masonry, even though they had been doing it for years. After I got them started, I ran an errand and came back to find them attaching the brick ties to the walls with BUTTON CAPS. “No, no, no”, I say, “see all these boxes of galvanized ring shank nails next to the boxes of ties?” Then came time to install the flashing for the weep holes. They started nailing it on OVER the 30# tar paper. “No, no, no, I say, you tuck the flashing UNDER the tar paper so the water will run out the weep holes.” This was an entirely new concept to them. I cringe at the thought of what they have done on other houses when there was no one supervising.
The last mason we hired was instructed to build a brick chimney for our wood stove. I come by during the process and ask him “Why are you packing mortar around the flue? The code says to leave an air space around it for expansion.” Code, what code? “We always pack them solid.” “Well, I want you to leave a 1″ air space.” I come back later and they are about 10 feet higher up. I look down from above, and there is an airspace alright, but the flue sections are wobbling all over because they didn’t support them periodically with angled bricks. I had to show them how that was done. Totally new concept to them. I also asked them to put refractory cement in the joints between flue sections. The boss replied (exact quote) “Re-what now?” He had never even heard of it. I stuck a pail of it in his hand and said “Just use it.” Meanwhile, the boss is fuming about having done this for 40 years and to just leave them alone.
Well, you asked for examples. There are a lot more that I’ve repressed. So, now we’re at the plumbing stage and I see all these unnecessary joints on the PEX. The saga continues. Thanks for listening.
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So, that’s the story to date. I want to add that I’ve read Fine Homebuilding cover to cover for almost 20 years. Is that part of the problem? It seems that NOBODY around here does ANYTHING the way it’s done in Fine Homebuilding (based on my nosing around countless new construction jobsites in recent years). I know that you folks that frequent this site are on a higher plane than the jokers that I’ve been dealing with, but boy, this should help you to understand why the trades tend to have such a bad image with the general public. It must pain you to be associated with all the hacks that are out there. So, anybody want to spend a little time in North Carolina? Free room and board and all the home cooking you can eat!
Edited 5/10/2002 1:36:02 PM ET by ANCHORBEAM
Replies
"Plus, my wife has threatened to castrate them with a dull machete.
My wife has had the patience of a saint."
I like one sided stories from perfect people.
Sorry, no sympathy here.
Gabe
Not looking for sympathy. Perhaps you can tell me how to make it a 2-sided story. What explanations could these people have that you feel would justify their work? "I'm having a bad day"?
As the owner and then the GC, do you have any responsibility for things that went wrong on your watch? It does read a bit like...everyone's wrong but me. Were there any good subs? Having been there and done some of that, I have stories that won't run out till the next millenium. However, it's always possible that some of the failings were ones of planning, managing, or ultimately, hiring, as in, why do you not seem to be able to hire anyone suitable?
Yes, certainly inexperience as a GC on my part did not help matters. I don't have the connections to know who is good and who isn't. I also think we had an incredible streak of bad luck, but am I wrong to expect a level of competence from anyone that does something as a profession? How do these people stay in business? Here's how: The construction business is so fantastic in the Research Triangle area of NC that they have constant work no matter how bad they are.
Yes, there was a good sub. The roofer did a nice job.
Edited 5/10/2002 2:56:28 PM ET by ANCHORBEAM
Anchor-
I sympathize with your take on the quality/competence of the tradespeople you hired. Indeed, there's a multitude of hacks out there. But don't forget the caveat- 'let the buyer beware.'
Unfortunately, the death knell sounded when you took on your own project as GC, and I suspect it was to save money. You as GC should have been there to oversee all of it. You sound as if you know construction fairly well, so in light of that I can't fathom how or why you chose who you did to do the work.
Good builders are not a dime a dozen, but there are many out there and it does take effort to search them out. A quality builder will cost more money, but certainly he would correct the foundation's formwork before proceeding. You get what you pay for, and any decision you make must be an informed one.
Don't mean to rant on you, perhaps you really did have an unfortunate stream of bad luck..............but I keep getting the feeling that you were trying to do this project but were not willing to pay very much for what you wanted.
Ken Hill
You were the one in charge the whole time and you want to pawn off responsibility for poor performance on others.
You, unfortunately got what you wanted to pay for.
I absolutely will not accept that you were unable to hire qualified people to work on your house by offering fair money for the work.
Not everyone is a qualified carpenter but not every carpenter is as inconpetent as you tell it.
Gabe
No, actually the builder that we hired was in charge for much of the debacle. If he wasn't, what the heck is the use of having a general contractor in the first place? He was actually a bright guy, but he gave us the "B" team and didn't supervise them.
You are assuming with absolutely no evidence that we were unwilling to pay "fair money". Actually, we paid through the nose for these people. I have seen no discernable relationship between how much is charged and the quality of work delivered.
If you read the end of the posting, you will see that I acknowledge and appreciate the level of professionalism of people that bother to read FHB, write for FHB, or frequent Breaktime. What that means is that I DON'T think every carpenter is incompetent.
I think what you've done here is like walking into a redneck bar and insulting rednecks - You've picked quite a fight.
I would concede that you have the right to be upset with what happened - Anyone would. But to come in and talk about "despising tradespeople" was not helpful to you or anyone here.
Talking to the people who did the work would be more producive.....
I posted the topic worded as it is to attract some feedback. Please note that it has a question mark at the end! It is NOT a statement that I despise all tradespeople. I only despise the pretenders.
My point was that you picked a lousy way and lousy wording to "attract some feedback".
Evil isn't all bad...
My suggestion is that you take this over to http://www.thisoldhouse.com and let steve thomas tell you what to do. He is the reckognized expert on this subject. Over here we are just the workin stiffs who ply our trade day in and out and don't really understand what it takes to orchestrate the constuction of any thing as complex as an entire home!
Maybe Home time has a good web site? Those two REALLY know what they are doing, they get more done in a half hour than most crews.
I could go on for hours but I gotta work.
TLayers
Onions
Have
Layers,
Carpenters
Have
Layers
Anchorbeam,
Since you are a twenty year reader of FHB, did you follow the advice that has been written in so many of its articles? Check referances and go look at thier work!
I would call the guy that you got as you GC a house broker, not a builder. He took your plans and brokered the work to the various trades at the lowest price he could get. He sounds like a guy that is building wealth, not quality homes. I know a few of them myself.
How about the subs you hired yourself? Where and how did you find them? If building is going strong in your area, it would be almost impossible for an unknown home owner to get good subs away from thier bread and butter builders. Even if you could convince them to interupt thier schedule to "work you in", your building schedule would suffer.
Way back when I was doing residential framing, we found it almost impossible to fit anyone in our schedule. It was to risky for us. If we told builder A we could not do his next house because we were doing a homeowner job, he would find some other crew to do it. When we went back to him, he would likely say,"sorry boys, but this new crew is working out fine...". Then the only way we could get back in was to under cut that crews price....BAD business. Our bread and butter came from the guys that built houses one after the other, not the one shot homeowner built houses.
This could be what has happened to you, inspite of your willingness to pay the going rate for quality work.
I dunno know, Gabe. I didn't read the original pex thread, and I don't believe everything I read, and we know for sure that whoever tells the story (any story) always puts their own spin on it. But if half of what he says is true, then it sounds like it was the three stooges. I wonder why he did so much of the corrective work himself? I think he should have given the gc a written list of problems, as they occured, sit doiwn and discuss them, and force the gc to make things right.
But with regard to the title of the current thread, no, he's not justified in despising tradespeople, not any more than we/they are justified in despising white collar homeowners.
Edited 5/10/2002 1:55:29 PM ET by ELCID72
Edited 5/10/2002 1:56:02 PM ET by ELCID72
blah blah blah......he's probably a dick. He hired day labor down at the doughnut shop, and his GC was probably just the most senior day laborer, who couldn't speak english either. What do you want for $50.00 per day?
12/12 gables with doghouse dormers and hips to boot? Sounds like a cluster fu-k to me in design work, but what can you expect from some trailer living engineer? Probably one of those design geniuses who engineered the Challenger o-rings, or the downpipe on my Powerstroke.
Then he comes HERE to complain......are you that stupid, or do you just want to fight? Go play with yourself engineer boy.
Keith C says,
"Probably one of those design geniuses who engineered the Challenger o-rings"
Keith, you may be correct about everything else in your post, but please do not blame the o-ring design engineer for the Challenger disaster. The engineer in that case advised his superiors NOT to launch that morning. His superiors and their NASA counterparts decided to ignore the engineer's advice and launch anyway. We all know what happened then. The people responsible then proceeded to cover everything up. Last I heard the engineer in question lost his job a Morton-Thiokol for being a whistle blower. For more on the story check the following link:
http://onlineethics.org/essays/shuttle/bois.html
Ignore the survey window that pops up.
I used to work on the Atlas/Centaur rocket. In the early 90's on AC-70, one of the two engines on the upper stage failed to ignite. Range safety blew it and the attached Japanese comm satelite up somewhere over Africa. Big investigation. The turbopump that pumps the propellant to the engine never came up to speed. The propulsion people were saying that it was nitrogen ice caused by a new purge proceedure. That would have required expensive changes. The VP of engineering (Bob Dinal for anyone who cares) decided that it was FOD (foreign object damage) instead and blamed it on a piece of scotchbrite pad being left inside the propellant line during cleaning. He also told one of the senior propulsion engineers to quote f***-off during a meeting. The senior propulsion engineer quit. The next rocket, AC-71 did the exact same thing. Big investigation. VP of engineering leads investigation which finds that it was nitrogen ice. He got a six figure bonus.
So what?! He was simply making a point, not trying to give an acurate depiction of the space effort. DanT
Maybe you got a bad run of carpenters. Too many jobs for the qualified labor pool may have left nothing but the dregs available.
This problem is made even worse because after the first crew this is a busted job. Having to finish anothers abandoned job with potentially hidden flaws does not make this a preferred job. It is an invitation to getting blamed for some one else's blunder and legal problems.
Solutions:
1) With your extensive knowledge and experience you might hire a local helper and do it yourself.
2) Park the site. Close up the job and tarp anything that might be damaged by rain. Contact a reliable and established GC and have yourself put on the waiting list. If he will take a busted job. Extra money and groveling may be in order. Wait for the calvary.
3) Contact the local carpenters union. They should know the general abilities of the crews used by local contractors.
4) There is something to be said for starting over from scratch with a reputable, and well researched, GC.
You just picked the lowest bidder(s).Got what you paid for.
My opinion is you probably did have a messed up crew working on you place. But It also sounds to me that you and your wife were hawking these guys. Maybe going over everything with a fine tooth comb at the end of the day after they all went home. I had a freind like that almost ended up in court. this guy was critiqueing the contractor and he didnt know how to put 2 pieces of wood together. What basically happened in that situation was 3 fold .
1) They were hawking the guy and questioning his every move and complaining about everything.
2) They quit communicating as equals the wife started to talking to people at her work and these "experts" were giving her advice and she was taking it.
3) They lost trust of each other. The Contractor quit trusting the HO and HO quit trusting the contractor and as a result they ended up communicating in writting.
Those are definately the things you want to avoid
Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Ron, I had much the same thing happen to me while building my in-laws home. Seems that the farmers that work at GE know quite a bit about building. I was working free, and they (the in-laws) were living with me. Man, you talk about strained relations. However, it all worked out. They eventually got a 5200 sf house that appraised at 200k+ for just over 120k, and i got my life back.
I would agree with Anchorbeam, yup, he's got every reason to despise us tradesmen, ...
Lets just take a look at some of us...........
ditchdiggers. yeah, lets jist dig this oops, what? too low? hell. just push some loose dirt back in, can't get xtra 'crete, at $80 a yard, no need to tamp it, besides, the wieght of the house will compact it, right?
wall sub. STEEL? what fer? re-inforcing what? re what-did-you- say? the only "re" they know is ree fer.
carpenters. ooooohhhhhhh! is THAT what all those cubes of brick are fer. I guess we'll just have to "RE" do it again. Hell, what fer anyway, You can't see it from my house, besides, it's good enough for gov. work.
plumbers, hot on the left, cold on the right,(or is it the other way around?) and #### doesn't flow uphill. That means it's O.K. to run the drain pipe level, right? as long as it's not uphill.
masons. re- frac what?? re- what? The on ly "re" they know is ree fer
sparkys. there's no need to put wire nuts on those connections, if it comes loose the current will just arc from one wire to the next, right? isn't that why they call us "sparkys" , oh yeah, don't forget to put the "REE"fridgerator on a separate circuit.
roofers, of course we did a good job SSSHHHH don't let them know we used 15 year shingles instead of 30 year. We might have to "REE" do it.
painters. Eggshell? wuts that, oh yeah, that's the color of eggshells, off-white, isn't it, but there are brown eggshells, too . Must be white, we don't want to "REE" do it. OR do we?
hard-wood sub, "yOU WAN'T THIS FLOOR '"REE" FINISHED? O.K., but there will be a funny smell.
Got that? Or do I have to "REE"peat myself.
not bad panama but bucksnort's plumbing photo made me laugh out loud.
I'm still lost in the "NC technology triangle" thing. Would that be NASCAR, Tobacco, Trailer Home(ooops I manufactured housing) triangle, or what? Alot of guys went to the Charlotte area in the mid 90's for the big bucks and plentiful jobs. EVERY single one I know came back and whined about low wages, slow paced work and stupid supervision. Never experienced it first hand so I can't validate it.
So. if you don't know first hand, your opinion is worth exactly what? I'd like a square foot price, please...
First hand....they all came back for more money up here, cause they could'nt live on the wages down there. Complain that there are to many south of the border types working for nothing.
This I actually have seen and experienced in the Outer Banks of NC. Personally, I can't see a Journeyman Operating Engineer making $8.00/hr. running a hoe. But that is what they pay.
I've vacationed down there for 40 years, and have seen many houses go up. When I sit and watch them work, I go crazy. They are soo, soo slow. They must work for $4.00/hr, but make it up by working 4 times as many hours on a house. They must frame for $20/ft. I watched a crew frame 1 floor in april, that would have taken us less than a day....they took 5. They even had a pettibone to lift the lumber to the first floor. I felt like going over for a pep talk a few times....but realized I did not know spanish that well.
I just want to jump in as a homeowner...
We live in a university town with a fairly active building trade.
Plenty of business to go around for all sorts of "tradespeople".
Yes, I can understand the perils of being your own GC and trying to hire reputable subs during times of a building boom.
I know someone who built a very large house this way, successfully by the way.
Anyway, when there is a building boom, reputable and busy contractors can pass on a potentially pain in the butt customer.
They can usually spot trouble during the first few minutes of initial conversation. It just ain't worth the trouble for them.
But the same thing could be said for those who insist on being their own GC. They should be able to spot trouble likewise.
My approach has always been to "be very bubba leery".
Referrals is very important, but the first encounter sets the tone for the rest of the project (if they get the business).
I like to stay out of the way once I know I've hired a good company.
The former head of building inspection of our town agreed that it definitely helps to be "bubba leery", as he has seen plenty out there.
Bubba workmanship is something we all hope to avoid in all walks of life. But on the otherhand I don't expect 100% perfection.
As a homeowner, I am somewhat sympathetic to the original poster.
But as many other have mentioned, it's buyer beware.
I think we have the 2nd fastest growing Hispanic speaking population in the country. You watching a crew while you're vacationing at the beach means about zippo. I know you know what you're doing( I've read a lot of your posts) but you don't know what they're doing....these guys don't work ALL the time (I've lived and worked there, soo...)they live at the beach....wonder why? There's a lot of stuff to do there...they live in the same place you vacation...hmmm, so what's your problem?...I mean that only in the nicest way....no alienation intended NC Tourista Board
Another 30+ factors/reasons in this post for DIY (as an engineer to the original poster eng.) Do your own 100% DIY (really 100%, don't just play at it) or quite gripping and accept that ya gits whut ya paid fer..
When I git too feeble inna few years, I'll look for the type people I've met and immediately inately trusted like Jim B (hey I look for him mah=ny a night anyway<G>), Nathan, BobS. or Jeff to do my jobs. (Bob'l probably be too old by then too)
Sure wish I could afford Stan or Armin if I ever built really big, but would look for that type work as models in anyone's portfolio anyway - you did look at previous work of your "despised' (even as used as thread bait) tradespeople, didn't you????, if not shame on you.
PS: Kieth C: camera is great, sorry I forgot to answer a months old query. Only problem is this new 1 meg limit,.
Art B.
My camera has gotten a real workout the last few weeks. I bought a new printer to take the card directly. I'm still working on that digital zoom stuff. I've got some great tornado damage photos, just no way to get them posted with the small limits.
I know what they are doing, goofing off! And I can respect that at the beach. I would be daydreaming and watching the sites myself. Problem is, they aren't watching the sites, they just move slow! A crew of 4 should not take 4 hours to build a 24' long wall , with 2 window headers. It's only 10' tall, precuts, and they didn't even sheath it.( 4 lots back from the ocean, they HAD no sites to see)
I guess you are right about them living there though. They must be making a ton of money, cause at $6000.00 a week for my place in season, they would have to make a few hundred thousand a year to survive. Maybe I should move a crew down here. Could make our motto " we do more before 9 am than they do all week, without breaking a sweat"
Kieth:
Little subject change: Do you remember who recommended the DC500 to us? I recall he asked for feedback and I never remembered to reply to him. Mine works like a dream, even dropped it once in gravel already, no damage.
Engineers, in general, like anything else, don't categorize all by one.
I are one too; but for wood, especially liked the "Larry eyeball method" in FHB of sill layout. Why measure when it doesn't matter - sills are not turbine blades after all, but from prev. posts, some eng. may think so.
Art B.
>They are soo, soo slow.
That gave me a much needed laugh tonight! Thanks. A local in WNC (I'm a Yankee) worked with me for months and was a great guy. But we'd be on one side of the house and start at the same time to go to the next task on the other side of the house. I'd get there, look around, and not see him. I head back and meet him half way. He hadn't stopped or messed around....just walked according to Mountain Time. (which means they're always synchronized with those newer mountains in Colorado--either two hours slow or two hours late) Good worker, but just at a different pace. They kinda walk with a drawl, if ya know what I mean. I musta looked hyper to him.
Wages really depend on the trade. I remember getting a huge shock when I believed Mike Smith in RI and a friend in TX that veneer plasterers get $1/ft. Then I priced it locally--$3-$5/ft plus materials. I cried for days over that one!
What a hoot!
Thanks mr. perfict engineer for the story! I plan to print it and give it all those funny people with full time jobs and careers who think nothing of doing my job....(the one that takes me 10 hours a day to do).........and thinking they can do both........well. After all, we's just a bunch 'o idiots! suh! =Or is that si'
Sounds to me like you have this secret desire to run your own school. Why else would you hire a crew of masons and then proceed to "teach" them how to lay brick and how to line a flue. Hilarious!
I suspect you wife appears to be patient because she doesn't want to set off the control freak she lives with.
And after reading Fine Homebuilding for 20 years ........... I guess the magazine is to blame too........just a little.
Come on, tell me you have no idea how to write an agreement.....one that protects you from that old 'them rocks in that there mud scam" ..and really, what was the real reason you didn't sue that G.C. At least you'd put him outta business so he wouldn't prey on other poor folks like yourself.
Einstein said the definition of insanity was to do the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.
So tell, mr engineer, whats the real story here?
Wow! Cold......but funny! Jeff "That's like hypnotizing chickens........."
I've seen some pretty daring feats of building down on the OBX, like, 1/2 sheeted roofs left over the weekend, sheeted, sided, gable ends stood up.Especially in such a windy area. Care for some hanggliding? Just cut a sheet of plywood in an elongated triangle, hold it over your shoulders and jump off the top deck, saaaiiiillllllllll hommmmmeeeeeeee.
Hi Keith,
The Research Triangle Park in NC is a huge development, research, high tech, and education industrial complex that has created quite a bit of wealth and a highly cosmopolitan culture right in the heart of some of the best college basketball in our country, and the several extremely fine universities that claim those teams. This part of NC has grown enormously in the past 20 or so years, and is considered by many to be one of the most attractive and desirable parts of our country to live in. Check in out. And amazing place to live and work, but the traffic is pretty darn heavy, and some people have been heard to complain about the number of northerners the place has attracted. <grinning>
http://www.rtp.org/
Charlotte? Is Charlotte in North Carolina? Oh, yeah, this North Carolinian always forgets about "that" part of the state.You can choose to be part of the solution, or part of the problem. Or like me, you can be an overachiever, and do both.
I was just joking, I love NC. It was a cheap shot, trying to get laughs. Could'nt resist. It's a northern thing.
As I read the first post from the engineer HO DIY, I had two thoughts.
The first was that there are a few unanswered questions in this picture.
The second is that he probably has some cause for despising his particular crew. when I was subbing siding and roofing, I worked behind more than one framing outfit that fit his description. The home construction industry is not lacking in people who think that because they can drive a nail, they know what kind of nail to use - or that because they know how to plug in a saw, they know how long to cut the lumber - is it 38" and three of those little marks?
Structural load path? what's that?
Level? yeah, I've got one in the truck. Don't ask me how to check if it's true or not since I dropped it off that deck last year.
One hour coffee break first thing in morning? I've got to clear the cobwebs of last nights party before setting up tools - you wouldn't want me to get hurt would you? After all - who's paying for the work comp insurance? You did buy some didn't you?
I rebuilt one house that was only a couple of years old because of framing that looked like a thirteen year old kid had built out of scavanged lumber (That builder was rumoured to have stolen materials off his other jobs)
When hiring a builder, the customer has to look farther than the magnetic sign on the side of the pickup truck. If he doesn't, he needs to despise his own choices, not tradesmen, because he didn't hire tradesmen, he hired men who called themselves tradesmen.
There may be a geographic factor here too. My Brother does business in the Anderson SC area and finds it extremely hard to find willing, capable workers without baggage (family, alcohol, attitude) When I visit and go to see his jobs, I notice the sloooooooooooooooww thing too. It's not just in the trades, bank tellers, waiters, retail clerks....must be the heat - it slows me down too.
Excellence is its own reward!
Dear HO/engineer/Wanna be GC. It's a control issue isn't it? I woulda made sure I hit you with my hammer if you were next to me showing me how to be a carpenter.
People wonder why workers deficate in their tubs.
Edited 5/11/2002 8:44:45 AM ET by Gunner
and sum workers wunder Y they get firedAttitude is its own reward!
People wonder why workers deficate in their tubs.
Anybody who would #### in a tub for ANY reason needs some serious conSOULing.........and deported back to the Taliban..........course you're just kidding , right? (The hammer thing I can go along with)....
Engineers and lawyers I never do work for...... I am prejudiced against both......the engineer has no tolerence and the lawyer doesn't have to hire one if things go bad.
But like Piffin said it ain't all one sided as I've also seen some REALLY shoddy work done by todays speedo framing companys.
There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
Edited 5/11/2002 9:25:01 AM ET by JJWALTERS
".the engineer has no tolerence"
actually they use tolerances of thousanths of an inch while carpenters use tolerances of 1/8" to 1/4". Maybe that's some of the problem. But it sounds like his carpenters used tolerances of three or four inches. That's outside the norm. BTW, I saw Norm on TV the other day and I'm thinking maybe these "carpenters" learned their trade from him. Had to keep drinking to keep from gagging.
LOLExcellence is its own reward!
I'd be very concerned about the quality of the plans in this senario. We all know how easy it is to draw facias meeting just right on paper. A set of plans traced by another is very suspicous.
That being said, the carps there sounded like hacks. Most of the other "tradesman" sound like hacks here also.
I superintended houses for doctors, lawyers, stock brokers, and engineers. I would not adversly classify any of these clients.
The engineer, and good friend, who helped me frame my cabin struggled to grasp the process and methods of framing.
Shortly after completing 2 adjacent homes for some engineers and their families this happened: They worked together to buld a sand box behind their house for their kids. They took 6X6X12' SYP, treated, pond dried, and put one end of the 6X on a 3' garden trailer. Then one engineer sat at the wheel of the riding lawnmower with the 3' trailer. The other bent over at the waist and tryed to hold up the 9' end of pond dried 6X while they drove around back. Obviously this was ridiculously awkward for 1 of them supporting a hundred pounds 3" off the ground while he walked.
I walked over picked up a 6X, put it on my shoulder and carried it back for them. I repeated this until all the 6Xs were in their backyard.
joe d
actually they use tolerances of thousanths of an inch while carpenters use tolerances of 1/8" to 1/4".
Exactly......years ago I was building a little two step garage platform out of treated wood for a guy who was an engineer. He measured the wood and was pissed because it wasn't all the exact width...then he started x measuring the platform to make sure it was square... I packed up, gave him the wood and left.There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
Actually, the guidance counselors in High School had me on the fast track to engineering school because that is what my aptitude tests showed right for me. I started at Clarkson which was rated third highest tech school in the country at the time.
I worked as a draftsman with engineers for my first summer out of HS. That cured me of any desire to be an engineer. Too high a percentage of anal personalities.
BTW, I find myself enjoying your posts and generally agreeing with what you say and how you say it, JJW
Excellence is its own reward!
>Too high a percentage of anal personalities.
Agreed, but would you want to fly in an airplane or cross a bridge designed by a non-anal (unanal?) engineer? At work we have had discussions about who in our group is the most anal.
Your best bet is to work with R&D types. They tend to be less anal.
Erich, BSEE (emphasis on the BS)
I think there are two facts that are so obvious they are probably being overlooked in this thread:
- All professions have hacks working within them.
- "You get what you pay for" isn't always true.
A few have mentioned the 'it's good enough' mentality that some contractors have. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. In a lot of professions, it's quite essential TOO know when something truly IS 'good enough.' Sweating the details sometimes isn't a good thing. The catch, though, is that a person's home is a part of them, and a typical homeowner can't come to terms with something being 'good enough.'
If a humble homeowner may offer a suggestion, I think a great sales tool for some contractors would be to prepare a script when having to explain 'good enough' to a client. When I deal with a contractor, I often just get confused when they say 'this is how we're going to do it' but don't add the 'and here is why' part. When they don't add the 'and here is why' part, the homeowner seeks the 'why' answer from others...typically the guy in the cubicle next to him or the father-in-law...which usually isn't the most reliable source.
Let me offer a little different perspective. I am an engineer and am now doing the finish work on our house that I GC'ed. I talked to a good contractor before I started, but just couldn't afford him. So I talked to several people that I know that are "in the business" -- my loan officer who has GC'ed about 10 of her own houses, a very good contractor (the husband of a girl my wife graduated with), my wife's decorator (on this project) who also builds houses (with her husband). They all said, "Use Dennis, he's the best... not the cheapest, but well worth it." So I talked to him and we came to terms. I did not haggle -- his price is his price, as is mine for the work I do. I asked my framer, who do you like for footing work? For block work? I used the people he suggested, because a good framer likes to start with a square and level foundation.
Did I keep and eye on things? Yes I did. After they set the batter boards and pulled the string lines I noticed one corner wan't right. I shot it with a transit and one of the boards was a 1/2" low. The next day I asked him to check it, and he did, and said "it's a 1/2" low -- glad you caught that." The block layer did a pretty good job. But when the deck was framed, one corner looked low to me, and it was -- 1" low. So we shimmed it up. My framer, as good as he was, wouldn't have caught either one of these problems (because I waited for him to notice, and he didn't). But NO WAY was I going to pull out a hammer and work on HIS job -- anyone would be insulted by that. When kitchen cabinets were installed, they used one 1/16" shim on one base cabinet. I installed the backerboard and tile, and I checked some of the tiles with a 'machinist's level' -- most were level to within 0.001.
I asked most everyone who worked on my house, "Who do you like for _____ (roofing, plumbing, concrete, H/A, etc.) It was interesting how often the same names popped up. So that's who I got usually. Everyone I used did good to excellent work. I never haggled over price. I paid everyone the minute they asked for a draw, or finished the job -- not the next day or week, but on the spot. I bought everyone lunch at least once. I bought lunch for the delivery guys from the lumber yard.
Was everything perfect? Of course not -- I've fixed lots of things. But for most folks it'd have been "good enough." I am the one with the problem -- I don't expect everyone to bend to my obsessive nature.
Guys like the one who started this thread give all engineers a bad name. This guy was a jerk long before he was an engineer. And he's the worst kind of engineer -- one who doesn't take the time to learn what he needs to know to do a job right, and who lacks the people skills and 'networking' acumen to find the "good folks" who could have made his project a breeze instead of a nightmare. He got what he deserved because he was ignorant -- not stupid, or uneducated, or naive -- but ignorant of "how things get done" in the real world.
Edited 5/19/2002 3:00:14 AM ET by RUSTYCAS
Nicely explained.
Well put. Nows he's in a bind. Partially built house. Limited interpersonal skill set for getting help.
The word has likely gotten out about this job and the home owners attitude. Most tradesmen will alert their friends to potential problems. IMHO I have found that the best people in any particular trade, even competitors, tend to be friends.
Throwing lots of money at a saint of a contractor willing to take such a job and going on vacation or doing it himself may be his only courses of action.
I am usually just a lurker here but this one has got my attention enough to actually post. I lived in Raleigh N.C. and built houses there for nine years with about a year and a half down in Wilmington N.C.
For the engineer who started this I have built in Governors Club in Chapel Hill as well as all over Cary and other areas of the triangle, so I do know how the framing and exterior trim trades are in RTP area. The only people that don't work in that area and are looking for one hit wonders like yourself usually have gotten fired everywhere else. I mean these guys can screw up pre-fabbed walls and trusses. As others have pointed out you probably didn't follow the rules hiring a sub. As in check references and go see their work currently in progress.
Everyone else -
I know a lot of you guys here are great carpenters who are very efficient, but I still don't think you realize how much difference there is between where you work and work in this area. I mean when I left there we were framing tracts at $2.25 a foot. Yes these were truss houses and no it was not fine homebuilding. When I left there I was running crews, two, with all my own guns, saws, and compressors for seventeen an hour. And that was pretty good money. And yes we were pretty quick. Want to know why? Out of twelve guys only two of us were American, two Canadians, and the rest Mexican.
I now live and work in the city of Chicago where the union standard is $31.12 an hour. Down there they have no unions to drive the non union wages up. So now like some of you guys I can afford to take a vacation once in awhile down to the coast of NC. And no I'm not union, but they drive the wages up here.
This is just my two cents, and I know thats all its worth.
Yes Jim,and Piffin, it is a joke. It pokes fun at the age old problem of workers deficating in the tub. One that's been hashed over and over at the old forum. Everyone always wonders why someone would do that, the gist of the joke was a response to the age old question. You see I don't endorse it, or like it, I have had to smell it in the past, but now that I'm mostly commercial and I don't have to put up with it. I personaly use a restroom for such matters. Except when camping of course. And I loath camping in my advancing years.
Yes Jim,and Piffin, it is a joke. It pokes fun at the age old problem of workers deficating in the tub
Yeah, I knew that cause anyone who could figure how to operate this new forum would be too smart to do it. :-) Nother thing that bugs me is why do guys piss in the sump pump hole? Or always pick the same corner of the house. .......even if there IS a job johnny close by.There are fast carpenters who care..... there are slow carpenters who care more.....there are half fast carpenters who could care less......
I hear ya on the forum thing brother.
To answer your question. Pure ignorance.
Excellent Post. My experience with building my cabin has been a frustrating one. It seems that most of the subs I've had working on this have the "close is good enough" attitude. It really pi**es me off when I'm paying top dollar for supposedly top talent and then get a job that needs to be redone or torn out. The mason who let the mortor in the fireplace freeze comes to mind. We had to tear that down to the foundation and it's a good thing we did because we found out the "sob" filled the blocks with sand instead of mortor.
Or how about the Truss supplier who built the trusses to the wrong snow load and invented an interior bearing wall in the process. Or the electricians that put the wrong size feed to a sub panel because thats all he had with him and he didn't want to go back to the shop. Or the window supplier that delivered damaged windows and said "a little touch up paint and you'll probably never see it".
On the other hand my second mason is a true craftsman and I consider him a friend also. My excavator, plumber, carpenters, heating, and sheetrock subs have all been really good guys doing quality work. As a christian I try not to wish bad things on anyone but if that sorry mason ever shows up at my place again I think I'll be asking the Lord for forgiveness and telling the sheriff it was self defense.
Anchorbeam,
I visit between 5 and 20 job sites a day. I can't agree that all tradesmen are bad nor can I say they are all worthy of our trust. I will say that in the very best high end homes, homes that are 20 million plus that I visit who have on-site GC's and super high standards, I can find fault inside of 10 minutes. Heck I can find fault in my own home, I'm the general contractor, lead carpenter and grunt. (plus I usually clean up every night too!) So accept certain shortcomings as part of the game. some won't matter, some can be fixed and some just add character to your home (or so I tell myself)
Not to minimise the mistakes or tosecond guess you but well the milk is split, clean it up and move on or you will only punish yourself.
As a tradesman (plumbing & heating) I get called from homeowners all the time to work on the new home they are GCing themselves. I usually don't return the call. I'd like to but experience has shown me that usually I only get the job if I'm the lowest bidder and then when I get to the job as scheduled they are not ready. So I work for General contractors that are organized and put out a good product. Not to say it's just homeowners, I have weeded out alot of so called generals that are not organized or that don't build a good product. So "me thinks" the product you are getting is typical of what most homeowners will get when they general themselves. That is why you can build it cheaper than the "good" contractor on your block, Because you are building it cheaper. The funny thing is I have seen a few horror shows as you describe in my area and they were for engineers. It makes me wonder if an engineer thinks because of his training he can turn the low priced hack into the custom home builder he isn't.
Hey... e-mail me please... where you at? I am in CO and in the same business.
And in answer to your question. No you are not justified in despising Tradespeople
-"Like fools, we had a cost plus contract..." -
I have a lot less experience than most of the guys in here, but I did work for a while on a finish crew in Houston, doing work on 2 and 3 million dollar renovations of 3-5 million dollar homes. At least thats how much the jobs were supposed to cost. The GC woked on a cost plus basis and I saw them take these "poor" home owners to the cleaners. It was a partner firm and they had a great, "good cop, bad cop" angle. One of them could never believe(!) the other "would have let that mistake happen."
It seems to me there is simply no incentive for the GC to do well in a contract like that. On these jobs it all came down to the framing crew, the only crew that was not a sub crew. As the subs would come through, they'd find their job impossible because of a framing mistake, tryi and find work somewhere else in the house until the next morning's walk through, when one GC partner would scowl at the other, sigh and say "okay, tear it out and lets get it right..."
Repeat ad infinitum....
Unbelievable.
Eventually I had enough and left while we were runnning crown. I drove by a year later and they were still working on it.
A good contract would have protected them, and you. A good architect would have been your advocate, as is required by the rules of their profession. Perhaps if you would have asked them to fulfill their true roll, rather than "tracing" your plans, they could have given you the heads up.
And dude, for a bright guy, you waded way, WAY deep into the caca before deciding to turn around.
IMHO,
DW
In theory, a good architect will protect the owners from that sort of re-do continuom but I've seen it more often than not that the architect fails to produce clear well thought out drawings free of errors, fails to answer the builders questions satisfactorily and in a timely manner, and then changes his mind after special orders have been placed. This results in higher cost over-runs than contractor mistakes.
No doubt - I've got a lot of competitors who pull the same rebuild scam because of their own failings but they don't see as much repeat business. They do the cocktail circuit and use the glad hand and silver tongue to keep landing new acounts.
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks to all who have made constructive comments. Sorry to those offended by the topic heading. I really do only despise the pretenders.