I’m plauged with an apparent leak in my toilet that I can’t seem to trace–wondering if anybody can point me in the right direction.
Three times now the bathroom floor has been flooded with half an inch of water (happens spontaneously when nobody’s in there–not associated with flushing). After investigating possible water sources carefully, I’ve determined that the source is the toilet. However, there is no sign of overflowing and no sign of leaking at the water inlet or the tank.
It appears that the water is leaking out the base of the toilet. The toilet was installed new about a year ago by an experienced plumber and has not been moved or worked on since then. It’s a ceramic 2-piece (Briggs Vacuity, they call it), with plastic tank inside the ceramic tank to prevent condensation on the tank during hot humid weather.
I’ve called my plumber but he may be away for the weekend and I’d love to get this solved. Turned off the water valve on the tank inlet and flushed, but it still is leaking every day or two. Can’t seem to make sense of it. Any ideas? Where should I begin? How can I determine the source of the leak so I know what needs fixing?
Thanks for the help.
Replies
if ya cut off the water to the john, and still have a leak..it AINT the john..maybe a drain in the wall behind it?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
"Turned off the water valve on the tank inlet and flushed, but it still is leaking every day or two. "
Wow...possessed toilet! I think if theres still water after the valve is turned off, then maybe the plumbing at the valve itself is leaking? Could be leaking behind the wall and coming out onto the floor.
It's not the potty...Turned off the water valve on the tank inlet and flushed, but it still is leaking every day or two. Maybe the connection of the valve on the end of the water pipe coming out of the wall?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Since you say that it seems to be leaking from the bottom of the toilet, my first thought was the wax seal. Shutting the water off and flushing may not eliminate the problem, because there will still be a small amount of water in the trap of the toilet that would leak from a bad seal.
Steve C.
If there's water in the trap, it should stay there, bad seal or not.
The one possibility for a leaky toilet once the water's turned off and the toilet flushed would be a defect in the ceramic. It could be a hairline crack in the trap, eg, that is temperature dependent or which opens up when some stress is applied to the toilet somehow. But that's a fairly far reach.
Slightly more likely would be something along the line of a leak around a tank bolt, but also seems unlikely for this style of unit. Besides, there isn't that much water left in a flushed tank.
Thanks for all the ideas.
I dried up the floor thoroughly and am keeping a close eye on things to see if I can spot where the water's coming from, but so far no water anywhere. One of the things that's puzzling me about this is the inconsitency--just sort of spontaneously starts leaking and then stops. I can't even begin to figure out what the "trigger" is. Makes it kind of hard to trace the source.
It doesn't seem like the water in the bowl has gone down, but I suppose it might have a little bit and I just didn't notice.
No sign of backed up drains anywhere, so I don't think the water's coming up (the water is also clear and has no odor at all).
I'm starting to think about a leak in the wall--like if a nail from the baseboard went into one of the lines (this is aquapex, by the way). But wouldn't the leak be more regular then? And anyhow, the lines are positioned above the baseboard level.
We've had a lot of rain here lately, but I don't see any sign of water coming from the outside.
My gut's telling me it's the toilet. The hairline crack idea is plausible, but how would that have happened? And the temperature has been very consistent this week. I guess I could pull the toilet and then wait and see if it happens again.
Pretty frustrating. Fun way to spend the holiday weekend, eh?
If you have a washing machine in an adjacent room you need to check it out.
Sometimes these things leak when they go through their cycle. Yours could be leaking and running under the wall into your bathroom.
Also look at the drain lines from the lavatory.
If you have a leaking supply line the water will be there all the time not just sometime.
The line that goes from the tub faucet up to the shower head could be leaking when someone takes a shower, or someone could be taking a shower without closing the curtain.
That is what I was thinking. A drain problem somewhere is leaking in the wall or causeing a backup at the seal.
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I had an old house where the cast iron stack pipe had rusted through in a couple of spots above the toilets. If your leak coincides with rain, maybe it's coming in through the vent somehow.
mister Ed has sure seen a lot of rain lately, but it would take a lot leaking through a crack to flood the floor 1/2" deep!
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Welcome to my nightmare. Big ugly scene tonight shed some light on the problem.
While putting our toddler to bed, my wife yells at me to "come down quick" and the tone of her voice tells me this is serious. I run down to find an inch of water in the bathroom and flooding into the adjacent hallway, bedroom, and beyond. My gut sank as I grabbed every towel I could find and mopped up hoping like hell the wood floor won't buckle.
After ten minutes of furious cleanup we realized that I had just drained the tub upstairs and my wife had taken a shower in the downstairs bathroom just before that. Seems like a drain problem, and as I investigated I saw some crud on the floor of the shower stall downstairs that looked like it might have come up from the shower drain.
We are on septic, a new system put in less than 2 years ago. A main 4-inch drain pipe runs through the slab from the low point in the house (the "leaking toilet" in the downstairs bathroom) to the tank. It seems pretty clear that this main drain is backing up when overloaded and leaking out around the flange of that toilet.
What's the next step (besides call our plumber--he's out of town until later in the week)? Should I check the septic tank to see if it's full of water above the inlet? I have a bad feeling the drain field isn't draining, but our system was designed to handle more water than our house normally uses. It was designed by a reputable local guy and installed by a reputable contractor. Although we've had a lot of rain during the past week, I can't imagine the soil wasn't at least as or more saturated during late winter/early spring. And no, we don't use a disposal thing in the sink and don't flush junk down the toilets.
Any other possibilities? Could something be blocking the 4-inch line to the tank? Can't imagine what.
BTW, the water flooding the house had no sewer odor to it.
Also, after doing the dishes and draining the sink tonight I heard some bubbling (a pair of sounds every minute or so) coming from the drain of the utility sink in the laundry room.
Any troubleshooting tips would be greatly appreciated. And in the meantime, I guess we just go real light on the water?
I thought when you build a new house this kind of stuff isn't supposed to happen!
If you can easily check the septic tank, do it. The level should be about even with the bottom of the outflow pipe.
If the septic looks OK then you probably have a clog somewhere. You can run a snake down a convenient drain or cleanout and make sure the line is clear to the septic tank. If not, it's probably either a toy that got flushed down the toilet, or the drain has cracked (due to settling) under the slab or just outside.
PS: Things like this happen all the time in new houses. "Teething pains".
"Also, after doing the dishes and draining the sink tonight I heard some bubbling (a pair of sounds every minute or so) coming from the drain of the utility sink in the laundry room."
You might also have a clogged vent.
BTW, there have been several stories recently of people finding that the test plugs had never been removed from the vent. Things like that are part of the "shakedown" cruise of a new home.
toddler ...
4" drain ...
we might be onto something here ....
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Dug down to access the lid to the septic tank and as soon as I uncovered one edge of the lid water started seeping out--then I inadvertently knocked the lid a bit with my shovel. Water started gushing out so I quickly piled the dirt back over and tamped it down. Phew!
OK, so getting closer to the source--either the outlet baffle on the tank is clogged or the drain field isn't draining, right?
What's the next step? Definitely time to get the professionals to take over. Should I call a septic pumper type guy to have a closer look? Or should I call the excavators who installed the system only a year and a half ago?
If I call the excavators, is it reasonable to expect them to fix this free? Right away? This is a 2-person outfit, we hired them to do our road, foundation, underground utilties, and septic, so it was a pretty good chunk of work. Got along fine, except they tend not to show up when they promise--the septic didn't go in until November, for example, when it was supposed to be late in that summer. I wasn't happy about that, given the fact that the materials were at risk of freezing, although there was no snow on the ground yet. Definitely was some friction there as after being flexible, easygoing, and accommodating (which they took full advantage of) I finally had to lean on them hard to follow through on their commitment before winter set in.
To my mind, our situation consitutues an emergency and they should finish up whatever they're in the middle of and then fix this issue, even though they've probably got lots of other people getting ready to build waiting on them. Does that seem reasonable?
I hate these situations. Life.
First thing I'd do is call the septic guy and have it pumped out. ASAP. Why would it be "gushing" out? there's obviously pressure on the tank.....you have a big problem somewhere in the system. I wonder if you have any drain tile at all.....at any rate, the big thing to do is to get the tank emptied out right away, this will accomplish two things: first, you can maybe see what's going on; second, you will be able to use your system. For a while.
But I'd call your excavators, too; maybe they'll come over when the thing is being pumped, at least to look.....
I'd second that -- get it pumped. And that's something that, on an emergency basis, you might even be able to get done today, at least in some parts of the country. Look in the yellow pages for "septic service" or some such.
Then (tomorrow) definitely call the guy who installed the thing, and your GC, if you had one. And might as well contact the county health dept or whoever regulates septics in your area, as they are going to "get wind" of the situation sooner or later, and you should check to see if permits and inspections are in order for the job.
If the installer is at all dragging his feet about fixing it, get your self an attorney ASAP. Usually just the threat of legal action is enough to "motivate" the otherwise unmotivated.
An attorney might not be necessary. If the installer pulled a permit, your advice about contacting the permitting office might be all the leverage he needs, cuz they office may threaten to stop issuing permits to the contractor. But of course if septic systems aren't their main line of business, they may not miss the work.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Actually, d, there is so much clay and wet soils here in Maine that groundwater protection gets higher priority than structural stuff. Many towns have no inspections of structure, but every place in the state is under the plumbing code and an extra hundred dollar fee for the inspection. Lots of wells are shallow and we all drink from the same pool. That makes it high priority.
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I understand public water supply problems. The city of San Antonio, more than 1 million of us, gets 100% of its water from an underground acquifer. If anything ever happen to pollutre the water, you couldn't give the land away. There was an election 10+ yrs ago to build a lake-sized aboveground resevoir, and it passed. 2-3 yrs later the activists (alternate spelling: a$$holes) got a recall on the ballot, and it was overturned. They actuaslly had to restore the land to previous condition, and sell it back to the previous owners.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Did you say what kind of septic system you have? If it's new, (or a pump system) you might have a filter that needs periodic cleaning. That's a HO maintenance issue, but your septic guy should have said something.
Could be "pressurized" if you just did laundry, flushed toilet, emptied tub. I've seen filters clogged from "keep your septic system clean" products.
No matter what, get it pumped out tomorrow. You may have to hose down the sides and pump it out again if there's a bunch of crud in it...pretty crappy<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I spoke with the guy who designed the system today. He spec'd an "Eljen In-Drain" system (http://www.eljen.com/in-drain.html) which is what the excavator installed. As far as I know everything was done by the book, but since I'm no septic expert I was relying on them entirely--I was on-site for part of the time during the installation, and I remember they had to bring in some special sand. I believe they also had the local Eljen rep. at the site for part of the time.
It's gravity fed.
Nobody said anything about cleaning a filter--I was told just to have the tank inspected and cleaned every three years.
I'll get on the horn first thing in the morning and get somebody by to pump the thing out so we can see what the heck's going on. I'll also call the CEO and the excavator. The guy who designed it wants to meet the excavator out here to investigate and find the problem.
If it was just a clogged filter I'd be relieved. Unfortunately I have visions of the excavator tearing apart the whole drainfield.
Good thing I built an outhouse--we're gonna need it!
I've got an outhouse, too! And, I've needed it, how do you think I found out about the filter?<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Is this a mound system (ground actually built up around the laterals) or a conventional in-ground system. If it's a mound system then it would probably have a pump, and the pump may have failed (or simply gotten disconnected somehow).
There normally is no filter in these systems. A two-chamber tank should be used, so all solids settle out in the first tank. If a pump is used its a sewage ejector pump that can handle a modicum of solids.
Almost every mound system here is gravity fed with no pumps. The Eljin is a thing that looks like a biog old mattress with loops of flow fibre mat to increase the mat surface underground and decrease the amount of fill required. That makes for a smaller mound and less stone or other fill materials.
It is a fairly new system so I am curious about the outcome on this one. The house I am working on now has Eljin for design because the mound would significantly impede the view of the shore from the house if it were the typical large mound.
Ed may have some sort of simple blockage, but what I fear is that there is simple too litttle base fill in his dsign and we have had a LOT of wet weather this spring and winter, bringing ground water high
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In order to have a mound system with no pumps, you need to have some elevation difference. A conventional septic system can be installed in dead-flat land without the need for pumps. (But of course, if the dead-flat land becomes waterlogged you have a problem.)
We've had have to have filters between a settling tank and a pump tank for a long time. County is now requiring a filter at the discharge of any tank with any system. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I've almost never livered where htere is dead flat land and there certainly is none around here where Ed and I live.
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Piff, I did consider that this first started happening during the rainy week we just had (first sign of trouble was a week ago yesterday) and wondered if the drain field was saturated. I wouldn't say it was a particularly wet winter/spring, here though--in fact things were fairly dry here till lately.
The guy who designed it has been at it a long time and is reputed to be the best around by the architects who we worked with--I also checked with our LPI before hiring him and he also said the guy knows his business. It seems unlikely that he goofed on the design, but I guess it's possible. We also tend to use less water than your typical household, and this is a 3-bedroom capacity system.
I guess the Eljin technology is a bit of an unknown, and if I had to do over again I probably would've pushed for a tried and true conventional system. We certainly have the space here. Not sure why he went that route in our case, but I guess he's had good luck with them and not knowing much about it I didn't second guess him.
If you turn out to be right and the field's design is flawed, who pays to redo it? Boy, I'm sure hoping things don't come to that. We'll know better when I get somebody out to pump the tank today.
Edited 6/1/2004 10:05 pm ET by MONSIEUR_ED
Edited 6/1/2004 10:06 pm ET by MONSIEUR_ED
The one possible problem my non-professional eye can see is that if there is a pool of sorts uphill of the mound then it could hold rainwater and allow it to saturate the area.
If the mound is properly graded, though, then it would seem that it's unlikely to saturate. So my money would be on a broken or smashed outlet pipe.
Septic guy came out this morning to pump the tank. Turns out it was a clogged filter on the outlet. He says I should check it more often--maybe every six months (excavators mentioned the filter but I don't recall their warning me to check so often).
Phew! $180 to have the tank pumped but could've been a lot worse.
Had an interesting conversation with him as he was pumping. He asked if we were vegetarians (my wife tends that way, me not so much), and said that a high fiber diet tends to clog the filter sooner. I laughed and said I'd tell my wife we need to have steak every night from now on.
Also got into his experience with the Elgin systems--he says he prefers the conventional stone and pipe, but that as long as the system is constructed with suitable (well-draining) fill, properly sited and graded, etc., the Elgins and other proprietary-technology type systems seem to function fine.
Apparently the attraction of something like the Elgin over the old-fashioned way is less space and less cost (mainly because less fill is necessary).
Guess what I'll be doing six months from now?
Your post points out a common tradeoff that sometimes isn't mentioned: capital cost vs ongoing maintenance. Personally, I'd rather pay a bit more and avoid having to change a filter on a septic tank every 6 months...
What is required to change the filter? Just open the top and change it out? Or do you need to pump it? I don't have any experience with anything other than the low tech tank and drain field style, so I don't know....
Yes, just open the small lid above the outlet, pull the filter, and hose it off.
If the tank is overfull, as it was in this case, you need to make sure the water level is below the level of the outlet pipe, or else you risk having solids run down to the drainfield. If that happens, you risk clogging that up and creating serious problems.
Ed, you may want to check it a little more often than six months at first, just to see how fast it does get junk in the filter. I check mine every month, cause pumping it down past the outlet is a pain and yuuucky. I thought it was your filter<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I'm glad that it was just the filter, Ed.
I'll email you too
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What does this filter look like? (I'm assuming it's not fiberglass mat with a cardboard frame.)
The septic filter is usually a cardboard frame with fiberglass and screen.
The filters we have are plastic with a ton of slots. Slip down into the top of the outlet tee. Got a handle on top, pull it out and hose it off, well, that's if the stuff isn't up over the top of the tee<G>then you're pumping... Don't worry, we can fix that later!
OK, it definitely sounds like a problem wiht the system and you should definitely expect the installers to take care of it for free. You should get your LPI over there involved. That is what they are paid for, and he should know that someting he inspected is in a state of failure. He will give you the muscle to get satisfaction. If the system was built on frozen or freezing soils, that is half the problem. It is not an allowable thing to do.
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Thanks for the tips, Piffin, I'll definitely be speaking with the town LPI (who also happens to be our CEO) tomorrow morning.
For what it's worth, in November of 02, when the system was installed, we'd had a fairly warm fall and the frost had not yet set in. But just as they were putting the thing in we started to get some cold overnight temps, and I was definitely irked that they'd waited so long. Actually, what irked me truly was that I'd been fair, flexible, and friendly with these guys (paid every invoice on the spot when they handed it to me), and in return trusted them to take total care of me. What they did was took advantage of my being a "nice guy" and squeezed in other jobs until the fall was well underway, even though they'd say I was "next in line." Did the same thing to a another guy in town.
But they're decent people at heart and I have to figure they'll stand by their work. I just can't be waiting around for them to show up this time.
"Actually, what irked me truly was that I'd been fair, flexible, and friendly with these guys (paid every invoice on the spot when they handed it to me), and in return trusted them to take total care of me. What they did was took advantage of my being a "nice guy" and squeezed in other jobs until the fall was well underway, even though they'd say I was "next in line.""
I have the same problem and it has taken me a LONG time to learn this and TRY to prevent.
For example if I take something to be repaired and they say that it will be a little while before they can get to it, 10 days to 2 weeks. And if I respond that is fine I don't need it immediately that they take it as being a job that can be put off indefinitely. I will go back in 3 weeks and they have not even started on it.
So no I will say that i fine, but I do need it soon afterwards and expect that it will be done in 3 weeks.
Toddler, you say? Could there be a pare diaper in there? or one of his wayward toys? Younguns have been known to be facinated with what they can watch go down the whirlpool in the bowl.
Also very likely, New systems around here can often have some settling that causes the pipe from house to tank to come apart, or frost heaving to lift the pipe and unlevel it or break it right off.
I would start with finding the cleanout and running a snake down it to see if there is blockage. n experienced hand can sometimes feel up a break too.
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You kind of eliminated this when you shut the water off, but we had a toilet that was leaking for some time, and we couldn't figure it out. Finally discovered that the fill valve in the tank sprayed water on the tank lid when filling. Depending on the phase of the moon, the water would stay in the tank or run down the outside and onto the floor.
Fill all the bathtubs. Then sit watching the problem unit while wife flushes each toilet in the house about five minutes apart, and then drains each tub. One of them will cause the leak to appear.
Unless it is the cracked porcelan idea. That could be a manufacturer flaaw.
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After you turned off the water and flushed the toilet there is still water in the trap. If that has not gone down then the source of the leak is elsewhere.
If it has gone done then that is your source. If you put some dye in the bowel then you would see some staining on the crack in the toilet where it is comeing through. But might end up staining too many other things.
One other through it might be a bad wax seal along with some other condition that is causing a surge of water in the drain lines.
Do you have water backing up into the toilet due to a drain being partially plugged. This winter I had my stack freeze and had very similar symptoms. When we ran water at other points draining to the same stack the toilet leaked through the wax gasket when the water level from the drain side was higher than the flange. Your's obviously isn't a freeze up, but is the drain clogged (unless you're in N. Alaska)?
A long shot, but it sounds like what happened to me this year.
Dave
The others have given you good advice. I just wished to comment that the tank inside the tank isn't to prevent condensation, rather it's a vacuum tank that part of what Briggs calls its WhisperVAC system. Go to http://www.terrylove.com/wc/briggs/vacuity_works.htm to see how this works.
You can put one color food coloring in the bowl and another color in the tank, and examine the next puddle. That would point to or eliminate one or both of those as the source.
just take a handfull of mutivitamins..that'll put color in the bowl.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
You crack me up. I'm assuming you want him to toss the pills in the potty, right? LOL, I can see him swallowing a handful and waiting till he has to go next, wondering why it's coming out yellow, like always...
I never met a tool I didn't like!
no, he has to take em..lol
My wife has me on some shid that makes my toilet look like an anti freeze spill..I swear it glows. Must be urine-ium capsules. what ever it is, the grass over the drain field likes it, and the dog don't..he quit going to the john for a drink.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
ROFLMAO! Urine-ium! New element on the Periodic Table! Chart of Nuclides just got a new element. I'm guessing it has a golden hue and pungent aroma. Classified as HazMat?
I never met a tool I didn't like!
"and the dog don't..he quit going to the john for a drink."
well, now that we've solved that problem...
;)
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Juat like my incoming water filters, I check/change them when the seasons change, so that works out at 4 times a year.
Try not to get the two confused.
Might explain the funny taste!!!
Blocked vent?
I have a toilet that leaked about a week ago, so I shut it off. My upstairs neighbor sent me an email about weird noises -
"A few times in the 7-10 days or so there's been a very loud noise - it seems to be shaking the plumbing and carries through the plumbing. It's loudest on the north wall (30 West Cedar side) near the back of the building. It starts suddenly, lasts for about 10 minutes then stops."
The north wall at the back of the building is were the stack should be for the leaing toilet.
Are the noises and the leak connected or coincident?
Thanks,
Richard