I am in the planning stages of building a new home and want to build a ROCK solid house. I want to use screws instead nails for their strength and holding power. I plan to use a construction adhesive on each end of the stud before attaching it to the top and bottom plates. I then plan to use a single nail to initially hold the stud, then use two to three screws to secure each end of the stud. I realize that nails are faster, but which is stronger and more durable nails or screws? Is there anything wrong with my construction plan besides overkill?
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>>>Is there anything wrong with my construction plan besides overkill?
I assume you're aware of the increased labor and material costs, and construction time.
My only other thought is about how such a structure would behave in an earthquake. I've read that wood frame houses, using conventional fasteners, are fairly resistant to earthquake energy because of their flexibility.
Personally, I think you can build a "rock solid" house with nails. What some people perceive as "loose" are things like drywall nail pops which are caused by wet lumber shrinking as it dries. This will not change with screws.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Rogue2424 - "Is there anything wrong with my construction plan besides overkill?"
How about underkill. Nails, in the applications they are intended to be used for in framing situations are stronger than screws. And I don't want to sound harsh or rude but your idea of putting "construction adhesive on each end of the stud before attaching it to the top and bottom plates" is the biggest waste of time and materials I think I may ever have heard anyone ever offer as an idea.
There are plenty of proven ways to build (frame) stronger structures out there adding ties and laying out sheathing for example but what your thinking is really the wrong approach.
I'd take the time to tell you some of them but I am pretty sure there are going to be people jumping all over you idea soon enough and I'll leave it to them to give you some hints. I'm sure the folks who build in California (earthquakes) and Florida (hurricanes) will have a lot to offer.
Be forewarned, I think you may have just stepped in a real bee's nest.
View Image
Edited 3/9/2007 12:39 pm ET by JerraldHayes
Nails, in the applications they are intended to be used for in framing situations are stronger than screws.
Uhoh, here we go again.
Nails are NOT stronger than screws. They are, however, in general more ductile.
Translation - they bend more readily, but are not as strong. Screws definitely have more resistance to pulling out, but are less flexible, so they may break over time as the lumber expands and contracts.
BTW, the construction adhesive will do essentially no good - you really can't glue end grain.
Use the nails - it's better, even though they aren't stronger. If you are concerned, use cement coated nails.
woodturner9 - "Nails are NOT stronger than screws. They are, however, in general more ductile.
Translation - they bend more readily, but are not as strong. Screws definitely have more resistance to pulling out, but are less flexible, so they may break over time as the lumber expands and contracts."
We'll that is really true but you're just splitting hairs on precisely just what do you and I mean by the word "stronger" but I really didn't want to get into this discussion in any depth since I've got to rejoin a discussion on the math of markup and overtime that I am in elsewhere here that I been away from for a couple of days. I'll leave this one to all you folks who love this particular topic and debate to provide the depth and precision to the explanation.
It was really the construction adhesive on the ends of the studs that caught my attention as I wondered just what kind did strength did Rogue2424 think that was adding against what kind of load or stress? I had never heard that one before.
Have fun.
View Image
If you want to use screws go ahead. And if you want to use construction adhesive on the but ends go ahead. There is no argument against it other than time. I would add use kiln dried 2x.
Sure there's an arguement against it. You must have missed the other 144,000 posts on the subject....
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rencald
Kiln dried, do you really understand what it means? The markings I see most often around here is KD 19 which means that it's dried to 19% ,moisture plus or minus 2%
Most kiln dried used in Furniture is dried to 7% moisture or less.. the differance is about 30 days in a kiln..
KD 19 may or may not pause as it passes thru the kiln on the way to get it's stamp. Larger sawmills that produce 2x4's for the construction trade around here have railroad tracks right thru the kiln. If the moisture content of the wood is high enough they will leave the railroad car in the kiln for a few hours to a day depending on just where the moisture is..
generally the logs dry out enough from the time they are cut untill they are sawn into studs that Kiln dried means that it simply needs to pass thru the kiln to get the stamp.
I often get wood straight from the sawmill with a lower than 19% moisture content..
Screws may not meet code. They are brittle compared to most nails. Gluing end grain is not as effective as parellel grain gluing and would likely be a waste of time in this application. If you are looking for a strong house, I would look toward engineered materials like plywood, LVLs, OSB, etc. Sheathing (outside and inside (sheetrock or similar)) is a primary key to structural strength in stud houses. The nails in the ends of the studs will always pull out easily, just as screws will, but try removing a sheet of sheathing nailed up with properly seated ring shank nails from a pneumatic gun and you will see why no one uses screws to build a house. By the time you have reached for your drill, the gun will have five nails in the sheathing. Screws are also pretty expensive compared to nails. I would stop by your local building supply house and get a simpson catalog as well, they've got some great solutions for lots of building problems. While your at it, talk with the building materials person there and you will learn a lot about materials that will make a strong house.
Adam
I agree with what everyone else said--this question seems to come out about once a month--if you do a "search" on words like "screws for framing" or "screws or nails" you may get some past discussions. Like was said--screws tend to be brittle and they have great resisitance to being pulled straight out, but little resistance to being sheared off.
I agree with the other post, screws vs nails and glue are not necessary.
Strength comes from choice of frame members and layering. Layering as in applying well nailed OSB or plywood sheathing to the stud walls. You can also use hurricane clips, straps, etc. to add strength.
Screws and glue would be a good choice for sub-floor attachement, but nails and glue will be sufficient.
Spend the extra money you budgeted for screws and glue on upgrading fixtures, cabinets, countertops, etc.
BTers are right, trust the time tested methods.
I can hook my 6'4" 320 pound cousin up with a well driven nail, and nailed construction qualifies and meets Texas Department of Insurance Code, designed by engineers, for costal homes.
Edited 3/9/2007 1:50 pm ET by txlandlord
I hope you have thick skin - This could get interesting.
Basically - I'd echo what others have already said:
1. Screws are NOT better or stronger than nails.
2. Screws likely won't meet your building codes (If you have any)
3. You'll waste tons of time and money when you need to focus on getting the thing DONE.
There's generally a reason things aer done the way they are. No way would I recommend that anyone focus their time and attention into something that's a complete waste of time and money.
if you want rock solid, build with ICF's
Of all the things that might be wrong with them, strength is not one of the problems.
I'm a DIY'er, not a pro, but here is a starter list of some ideas you might consider for your 'rock-solid' goal: Many, many anchor J-bolts holding the sill to the foundation (since most of this stuff is for your piece of mind, get the extra long ones). big washers under the nuts. vertical rebar and concrete core fill all the CMU's if you used them. Simpson metal tie-downs in the obvious places, like rafter to top plate. Bostich "Sheather-Plus" nails (lots of them) to attach plywood to studs and rafters. 5/8th inch ply on the roof instead of 1/2". closed -cell foam insulation (adds stiffness, among it's other benefits). 5/8 inch blueboard and veneer plaster instead of 1/2 sheetrock.
fill in your profile. geography will help the pros give more ideas.
Using Bostitch Hurriquake nails to attach sheathing to the frame would do more good than wasting thousands of dollars to screw a frame together and will only add about $15 to the price of an average home:
http://www.amazon.com/Bostitch-Hurriquake-Collated-000-Qty-113-inch/dp/B000JO5066/ref=sr_1_1/102-7043355-8050504?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1173468836&sr=8-1
I do glue and screw freestanding half-walls together...other than that...fuggedaboutit.
One more thing: are you going to build this yourself, be the GC, or hire a GC ?
If you are going to hire people, note this: Any of the pros who inhabit this discussion board would be overwhelmed with joy to have you open the conversation with "I'm interested in your ideas of how you can build me a (higher quality, rock solid, whatever adjective you choose) house, and how much extra the cost would be over a 'standard' house". The guy may have been waiting his whole career for a chance to really show off his craftsmanship.
Or the easiest idea of all: Just move to where Piffin or Mike Smith build, and turn them loose. (And others here, as well, but I don't want it to look like I'm sucking up to everybody !) You'll get a ton of ideas about how to do it right by searching out and reading all 76,934 posts in Mike Smith's "Adverse Conditions" thread.
This comes up at regular intervals (like daily).
Standard platform framing techniques are designed such that they closely complement the characteristics of nails. In the vast majority of framing joints the nails aren't called upon to resist static pullout, but only shear. (Basically, it's as if the framing were pegged together.) Even mediocre quality nails tend to be quite strong in shear.
Screws will generally resist pullout much better, but, depending on quality, may be much more brittle, and may fail in shear where nails would hold.
For this reason (and because of general inertia), codes do not generally accept the use of screws in place of nails. At the very least, if you use screws, you should use one one of the few brands that are certified to meet specific strength specifications.
Nails stronger
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The Oracle has spoken...
Yeah, but on a hot day Piffin is stronger than anything within smelling distance.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
No, the Oracle in this matter is Joe Carola.
If he chimes in here, the OP will probably flinch at the sight of a screw thereafter.
what piffin said
View Image "We fight not to enslave ,but to set free"
Thomas Paine
Invest in strapping. And do a search on the Mooney wall if you want a better quality house.
They won't sell you a gun if you are crying.
http://thewoodwhisperer.com/
If you like glue, get a foam gun and glue all the sheathing. The ply will tear if you have to remove it.
If you want it stiffer, run all thread from your j-bolts through the top plate in each corner and several in between. Nut & washer top & bottom of top plate. That will stiffen up a frame a bunch.
Forget the stud glue, forget the screws.
Joe H
gotta use piffin screws.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
If you want a strong house then upgrade your materials. Using screws is a complete waste of time and you get absolutely no more strength. If you ever decide to change anything while you build then you will without a doubt say a lot of bad words while you strip all those screws and bits trying to take your work apart. It is so much easier to demo a nailed job with just a few swats with a hammer and the leverage of a pry bar.
If you want strong wherever you are, just ask your engineer to spec your house for earthquake zone 5, snow loads of 300 psf and for a hurricane 5. That should do it.
My dad was a builder and I grew up in several new homes. I always remember the sound at night of a new home "settling" while I was in bed at night. This was before anyone invented a holddown or shear panel. At my new home built for earthquakes and snow loads there was not a single squeak of "settling" when I moved in.
Buy about fifty cases of PL400 and glue all your shear, flooring, drywall and everything you can think of if you want to get anal. Gluing end grain will not make a difference though so the idea of gluing stud to plates is a lame idea.
Buy a nice Hitachi nailer and go to town nailing the bejeezus out of everything. It is profoundly quicker that screwing everything. The good thing about nailers is that it is very easy to nail a lot of nails in a short time. You might be surprised by how well those nails hold when you try to take apart some of your work.
It sounds like you are a rank amateur builder for making such an outrageously lame suggestion. I think you should shop around and hire a professional GC. If you DIY then the end product will take much longer and be lower quality. Real carpenters will glance at your work and wince. In the long run your investment will be worth much much more if it was built by a pro.
Given that you stated you're in the planning stages, I would humbly suggest you read up on current construction techniques and fastner uses. Then go talk to an engineer and architect to find out just how much extra strength is needed, can be achieved, and will cost to implement.
Remember to pick the fastener designed for your needs.
Nails are best at resisting shearing stress - sideways movement.
Screws are best at resisting tensile stress - pulling movement.
If you really wanted a rock solid house, you'd build it out of rock or solid masonry. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Happy planning.
Edited 3/10/2007 1:52 am ET by Thaumaturge
good plan so far ... I like the direction you are headed.
aside from building the best house ever ... you will save millions!
plus ...you will finally have a great place to start that "home surgery" project you've been thinking of trying after the house is finished ...
Carry On ... ignore the naysayers ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
In Canada there's a T.V. Homes repair guru, who uses screws for everything.
Since his show has become popular, we've had to send two of our apprentices up north with no T.V. for awhile.
Here we go again with the "Nails vs Screws".....
This should be fun!__________________________
Judo Chop!
You look so cute with your tongue in your cheek like that
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I would post this question at http://www.jlconline.com
THey have a Framing Forum so ask there, you are not going to get the answers you want here. Over there they will point you in the right direction.
THey really like helping people out.
You and Hannibal Lecter are kindred spirits.
:-)
Troublemaker
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not me, no sir.
I figured he/she could get a complete and through analysis of his idea of a "rock solid house" over at JLC.
Granted he/she might not like any of answers given. But there will be plenty of responses either way.
You are a bad man! :-)
Catching a little grief at your naitivity are you.
The STOAM prefab wall system maybe the strongest thing going for the money.
If I were stick framing for exteme strength I would use 2x6 studs and glue exterior plywood.Then I would foam insulate all exterior walls as this will add some ridgidity.
In Florida 1st story is almost always block or concrete, this is for strength and rot and bugs, something to consider.
If you are in the planning stages I would suggest reading more and looking into earthquake and hurricane zone and coastal high wind areas requirements for extra efforts for extreme conditions.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Overkill isn't a bad thing, but there are much better ways to approach it. Buy a code book and look through the framing sections. What you want to do is build like you're in a higher wind area, or higher-risk seismic areas. More nails, thicker sheathing, more shear pannels, more metal connectors, thicker framing members, etc. all add up to a stronger shell. That's where you should overbuild.
Ringshank or spiral shank (name?) nails would be an improvement over smooth framing nails. Unfortunately, even if you wanted to use screws very few in the sizes you'd need are load rated for the purpose. Simple deck screws would simply not work since they are too brittle. We buy torx head screws by the 30lb box and many are used in framing, but only to hold things tightly together. We still have to nail the connection for long-term durability in situations that have shear stresses.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
>>Ringshank or spiral shank (name?) nails would be an improvement over smooth framing nails.Salesman for a major builder in my highly seismic and high wind area showed me his framing nails: brightly anodized spiral nails with two stages ofspirals on the shanks. This builder builds everything out of panels which have sheathing on both sides, glued down with adhesive and nailed with spiral nails. Panels are glued together at the edge with "high solid content" glue and more spiral nails.They claim shear strength for their wall that is twice as high as a normal conventionally framed wall. For one thing, the spiral nails have a pull-out test strength rating of twice the normal smooth shank nails.Dunno where one would get such nails though, they look proprietary.
talkingdog
154 posts and the originator hasn't posted once since!
minus the approximately ten posts about how many posts it's been.
When the big one hits Cali, the strength of their nails will be the least of their problems! Can't imagine traffic over Donner pass when that day comes. *chuckle*
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Ladies, ladies, ladies...I think I've got the answer to your great debate:
The best of both worlds - Ballistic NailScrews http://www.911-nails.com/nailscrews.html
(I apologize if somebody else has already mentioned these, I didn't read all the previous posts...)Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
I can't believe you just recommended a Phillips head screw. Man, next thing you know people will start driving them in with nail guns.
;)
And I can't believe to didn't read 158 well reasoned and thought out posts prior to... PPPPPPPPPPZPZZPZZZ (snort) sorry, I just shot soymilk out my noseRebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
It's heating up. I can smell the flesh burning...
http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/03/05/5homes.html
"The problem stems from a prefabricated roof truss that is attached to a house's walls with screws or nails, McDowell said. On these homes, he said, too many screws were used, and cracks formed in the drywall."
every court needs a jester
Ah, yes, but are the problems due to using screws, or due to using nails??
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
It's heating up. I can smell the flesh burning...
I bet it smells yummy! I burnt my arm on a soldering iron once... I only knew it was happening because I realized it was odd for someone to be cooking bacon in a woodshop. I sure smelled tasty though!
Makes me wonder what real Canadian Back Bacon tastes like... is it made from real Canadians? Mmmmmmmmm.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Rogue2424
Well you're talking with someone who uses screws all of the time! Talk about overkill, I've built with 1/2 x12 inch stainless steel lag bolts holding timbers as large as 12x12 or 6x18 together, nice dried white oak timbers some over 270 years old..
if that's not enough I added SIP's (structural insulalted panels) which are 200% stronger than a typical code built stick framed wall.
If that's not enough I added another layer of black walnut timbers and stone.. (there are pictures in the archieves.
My walls are 17 inches thick! timber 4 foot on center, and braced!
a regular code built roof will pull off with 208 pounds of force per rafter. My rafters will take over 15,000 pounds of force to fail.. (each)
To those neh sayers who say that nails are superior to screws I refer them to Tauton presses book about roofing.. page 99 It clearly documents that lag screws are stronger than nails and stronger than just about any other method of fastening a rafter together.. I might add the lag screws were improperly applied, had they been properly applied I have no doubt that they would have been superior to any other method of fastening..
Mind you the failure point was not the fastner itself, rather the wood that it held in place. Superior wood would definately have performed better..
Having said all of that, why not look at alternative methods of building? ICF's (insulated concrete forms) are really simply to build with. You played with leggos as a kid didn't you? Theses things are like giant foam leggos and just about as easy..
Massive strength, similar to normal costs, easy to use, No muscle required, energy efficent. (extremely energy efficent) not affected by bugs, (you can laugh at termits and carpenter ants) won't rot, code compliant, safe fire resistant.
so ...
lag BOLTS are strong.
ok ... U got any other pearls of wisdom laying arround that don't apply to this particular thread?
How about ... "hot's on left and pay day is friday" ...
that should wrap things up.
Now ... back to the discussion of screws and framing ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
LOL....yup.View Image
Yes I do Jeff,
56 posts and counting and he asked the question once and got 56 answers..
I just reread it and he's not reponded to anybody in 56 posts.
so we're all talking amonst ourselves.
I'm sure you'd never consider screws when you can nail and for equally valid reasons I'd never nail when I can screw.
Frankly I never expect you to follow my example and I hope you won't be offended if I don't follow yours..
That sure doesn't make you wrong nor does it make me wrong.. differant perspective is all.
Frenchy,Go Screw Yourself...................;-)I love ya.......just having fun.......Joe Carola
How about a compromise for the sheathing? Have you thought about the new Bostitch Hurriquake nails? Check out the attached picture, its got nail and screw properties (Its like the "Liger" of nails - a Napolean Dynamite reference). I've spec'd them for the shear walls and roof sheathing on my house in the Northern California bay area. I've asked the framer to use screws for the sub floors just in case I need to pull up the floor to hide my pot of gold or to stop squeaks. The Hurriquakes are available in .113 or .131 shank diameter and have a larger head than than standard sheathing screws.
Pull up subfloor!!!!??You are far more likely to need to fix squeaks if you do not use adhesive along with the deck screws to fasten that down!MOF, I can just about gaurantee it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,Thanks for the advice on gluing and screwing the subfloor, great idea! I'll just leave one panel un-glued so I can pull it up to hide my post-apocalyptic pot of gold there. ;-).
OK, don't forget the guns and ammo
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This kind of question reminds me of how much I've learned about framing from my senses and intuition. Standing in a newly framed house and reaching out to feel the structure intuitively, my mind at rest, teaches me to respect plumb and level in a way that the mind cannot comprehend. It also allows wood to express itself as a living thing.
So I'd suggest that you try this kind of comtemplation/meditation, in order to grasp structure and inherent strength. It'll help you trust what others here have told you. And, if you make the connection in the way I'm suggesting, you'll discover one of the real joys of stick building.
I remember climbing a ladder one clear morning, after an over night snow storm, and entering another world. Over my head was a newly framed, unsheathed cathedral ceiling, built with 4X8 rafters on 4' centers. It was a house of my own design, the first anyone had trusted me to build, and it was speaking to me in a way that no words, written or spoken, can approach.
Best Wishes, Peter
I love walking in a house I have framed. Thinking " I am up here above the ground defying gravity because I turned that truck load of lumber into this space."
Rogue2424: putting fasteners with strength acting in useless directions will not make your house stronger or more "solid".
Conventional framing is designed not to rely on the withdrawl resistance of the fasteners to provide necessary strength. It's designed to load fasteners almost exclusively in shear. The few exceptions to that rule are usually dealt with via a metal fastening plate more effectively than by using either nails OR screws.
Want to actually make it stronger? Put materials and fasteners in directions that mean something as far as the loads the structure will experience. Want overkill? 5/8" thick plywood sheathing, glued and nailed to the studs, run vertically, with horizontal seams staggered from sill plate to top plate and joined over blocking, with the rest of the framing reinforced using strategically-placed metal hangers and straps (hurricane ties etc.): that will do more than all the screws in the world.
Are nails "stronger" than screws? It depends on what you mean by "stronger". In pure shear, if you compare them on the basis of the same shank diameter, NOT on the basis of the outside diameter (i.e. not basing it on the OD of the threads of the screw), the answer is a clear NO- screws are either as strong as, or stronger than, nails with the same cross-section of steel in them. Screws also have far superior withdrawl resistance to that of of nails, which matters only when joints get loaded in directions they're not normally designed to resist. But MOST screws are also far less ductile than most nails. A quick blow with a heavy hammer across the joint will often show that fact, with the screw usually failing by brittle fracture whereas the nail will simply bend.
Yeah, plywood sheathing glued (and screwed, if you wish) to the framing, with joints handled as you describe, produces an INCREDIBLY strong structure. Doesn't even have to be 5/8" -- reasonable quality 1/4" plywood would do it, if you want to add foam insulation on the outside without contributing too much extra thickness.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
First, let all your wood air dry. Next nail everything with hot-dipped hand-drive nails, 16d preferred.:)
>> First, let all your wood air dry. << Do you line in an area where using other than kiln dried lumber is the norm?
Matt
I think in Cali they do use wet wood to frame - Not kiln dried anyhow.
Doug
Doug is right about wet wood in California. Most all the framing lumber around here is S-Green doug fir. Heavy stuff. I'm from an area where everything is kiln dried originally. I don't understand why things are framed green around here, but it seems to work. Top pieces on the pile move around if you let them start to dry before you get them put up.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
It would seem that the dimentional instability of green wood would cause all kinds of problems with interior finishes, floors, and who knows what else. Is you plywood made out of green wood too? ;-) How about your trim? :-)
Last batch of DF I bought (2x6x20) ranged from 25% to 40% moisture on an LED pin meter. They are wet to the touch. The wood nearly explodes from checking if you dry it out too fast too, which is easy to do in the dry Santa Ana winds.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
The wetter the wood the better. Framing in CA is much easier in the winter than summer, when the wood is dripping and water sprays in your face while you shoot or swing. Kiln dried doesn't mean a thing in my area. Dried wood isn't worth using because it's twisted, crooked, bowed and will split when you nail it.However, the idea was supplied with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. I don't know how to make the emoticon for that yet, so I put in a smiley face.If the OP has the money to frame with screws than he has time to wait for his wood to air dry; said lumber will then hold a HDG hand drive 16d nail without ever letting go, if is doesn't split or shatter.Of course the OP could frame the house with wet wood and leave the framing to sit uncovered for about a month while all the wood dries and shrinks around nails. Then it would never move.:)(tic?)Jase--Is there a better way?
I will comment that screws work better on boats than nails do.
---
You should hire an engineer. If he is any good he will produce a house "stronger" than code requires (strong enough to satisfy you) for not too much more than standard construction.
---
While you believe that the nails/screws from the plates to the studs provide the strength in a wall, I suspect that the sheathing nails (and glue for those who really care) are more important.
Nails must have been either cheap or plentiful when my '30s house was built (for about $3,500 then), because when I took out a kitchen alcove to expand the kitchen, I encountered more nails per square inch supporting it than I'd ever seen before. Thank goodness for bimetal Sawzall blades. Anyway, I use screws in a lot of work on my old house, if only to avoid fracturing plaster with hammer blows, but if it were new, I'd probably use nails -- air driven at my age.
Yeah, lots of advantages for screws in remodel work, especially if you don't have (or want to drag out) an air nailer. Easier to get stuff fastened without it drifting out of alignment and without knocking plaster off, etc.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Don't be scared off.... the delivery is rough but it comes from the right place. Everybody just doesn't want to see you waste your time, energy, and money on something that will accomplish zero at the end of the day. Read through the muck again, there's some pearls in there. In a nutshell.... look into increasing the amount of Simpson hardware in your home and leave the screws for the board hangers.
If you are building this house yourself, and can get past the good natured jabs, you may very well find this place to be your greatest assest as you go through the process of building your home. You'll always get the truth here..... whether you like it or not. :)
If you want a rock solid house, don't use nails or screws, use mortar.
Like the Three Little Pigs, build your house out of CMU (cement blocks).
Like others have already said, gluing end grain is useless. For a solid house I would suggest framing at 16" o.c., use plywood sheathing, use metal connectors and strapping (ie: Simpson Ties, which might be code in your vicinity anyway) and toenail your studs (even after you end nail if using a gun) with either cement coated or Ardox (spiral) nails.
Do a mock-up using your method of screws and glue, and one using the nailing method described, and attempt to tear them both apart.
You have to download the song, "3 little pigs" by Green Jelly(formerly Green Jello).
The chorus is great "Little pig, Little pig, let me in" in a great death metal voice, and then "not by the hair on my chinny chin chin" in a great high pitched scared pig voice.
The video used to be on youtube.com, but they must have deleted it for copyright reasons.I wish I had a reason; my flaws are open season
Maybe we could have skits at the next fest...
I wonder how a Superior Walls house would fit into the "fortress" style of building?
When I was in Russia last year, the people I discussed building with were dumbfounded that we used wood framing in North America.
Talk about regional differences...
I wonder if it has anything to do with the availability of wood? I would guess that their roofs are still framed with wood? What are the roof coverings?
Also, I wonder about the affordability of homes over there?
Matt,
In much of the world it's unusual to build with wood. It's rare in much of Europe, Central, and South America, Autrailia, and India, Africa, big chunks of Asia, hmmm much of the world..
There are vast forests in Russia with probably more wood than in all North America. I think the issue is historical practice. They've been doing it that way for centuries. Even the partition walls in new apts. are block and plaster. I tried to to tell them that we in the New World knew better, but they just laughed as they poured me another vodka.
Well, I may be just saying this for those who will do a search on this later, but here goes...
Last year I finished up rebuilding my attached garage. I raised the entire roof 12" and replaced all the rafters. I also installed shearwalls to the interior. When I was finished, I think I used a total of 40 nails in framing the whole thing - and that was in a place where the flat top of a nail worked out better. Other than framing, I used nails to fasten battens on the exterior, plastic caps on the synthetic roof underlayment, and for the shingles. All methods were approved by the head Building Inspector. We basicly agreed that the strength of a screw compared to a nail is not a value of 0, we agreed that as long as I continued to frame using hangers, plates, and a ridiculous number of screws, and we agreed that basicly as long as everything was overbuilt, he would approve it.
Here are some other things I've learned in my short experience about framing with screws:
- Drywall screws are only ment for drywall. They are too thin and brittle for holding wood together.
- #8 Is too small to be reliable. When I started I was trying #8 Grip Rite, and I snapped about 10% of them. I switched to #9 Phillips Deck Mate Square Driv and never broke one of them (have to be carefull with them, they will pull themselves straight through a board if you keep overdriving them)
- There is a big difference in the quality of screws... even from the same manufacturer. You will probably have to look high and low to find just the right ones for you.
- Square drive (or Robertson) and star/torx driv screws work much better than phillips head - phillips head was DESIGNED to cam out. I like square drive a little better than torx at the moment because the fastener will stay on the bit after you let go, handy for overhead work.
- Impact Drivers are best for driving screws, Drills are best for making holes.
- Pan or round washer heads are good when you work near the end grain, the conventional flathead screw tends to wedge the wood apart.
- Screws with threads over only half their lengths are super awesome. This pulls the wood together instead of forcing a gap between boards.
- If your boards do seperate as the screw passes from one piece to the other, momentarily back the screw back out until the wood comes together again, then drive the screw back down again. Normally it rethreads tight together again.
- Screws are made of hardened steel, so it you have to cut or drill wood where you have alot of screws in, conventional "wood with nails" cutting implements won't work... at least not more than once.
- Hardened steel rusts faster than the mild steel of nails. Always use a coated screw.
- If you want to be able to back your screws back out at a later time after they've been covered with drywall mud, dirt, etc... get an old stick candle and mash it into the head. The wax keeps other gunk out, but is easily removed if you need to unscrew it later.
- If you want to lubricate the threads of your screws, get a can of dry spray lubricant and dose a whole box at once, instead of painstakingly wiping on whatever gunk you like on the threads.
- Nails are Fast, Efficient, Cheap, Available, and Widely Used. Screws are none of the previous. Screws I think can be safely thought of in a 10 to 1 comparison... ten times more expensive per fastener, ten times more labor. No company is going to spend that kind of money to get essentially the same final result. No one screws homes together because it doesn't make sense financially, and no one has experience doing it who builds homes for a living. Given those last two statements, you get a third: The fastener manufacturers are not making products for a nonexistant market. There are no "Framing Screws" sections at Home Depot/Lowes/Local Lumber Yard because there isn't a market for them. There is very little code mention of screws in building construction because there is no demand to have them. Catch-22.
People who use screws to frame use them because they have different needs than new construction builders. Remodlers use them because they are gentle to the surrounding structure - no cracks in plaster or drywall, no boucing a glass unicorn off a curio in the apartment next door. DIY's like myself like them because we are not experts in hammer technique, and aquiring all the gear to run a framing gun is a bit of a pain... not to mention inexperience with a tool just as dangerous as firearm. I also like the flexibility screws offer in "Do Overs" - if you forget about something you needed to do BEFORE that layer you just attached, you don't have to destroy anything to take it apart - and you can reuse the same holes they went into before as long as you are carefull.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"DIY's like myself like them because we are not experts in hammer technique,"
that still cracks me up every time U harp on that ...
"hammering technique" ....
I realize it's pretty complex ... grab something by a handle and swing it.
years to master the art ...
really is more of an art than technique.
build how ya want ... don't affect me one way or another ...
just makes me laugh is all.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You've got to admit, he's come a long ways!LMAO too
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
> really is more of an art than technique.That's the point. Some folks are portrait artists, some can barely manage paint-by-numbers.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Jeff,
I'll go Paul one better, I can no longer sink a 16 p nail in a a tap and a blow. However at age 58 I'm older than most carpenters are. In the local carpenters union you get full retirement benefits at age 55, they don't want us old farts climbing up ladders and reaching overhead to wack a nail..
A decade ago I could sink a 16P nail with a tap to set it and a blow to sink it.. I had the muscle then.. Not now, not most women and certainly not a lot of men who do mainly sedentary jobs.
But hammer techniques aren't why I screwed my walls togther, frankly nails won't hold well enough for the work I do..
real man would mortice, tenon and cross peg.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff
If you look carefully at my pictures you'll see that where called for my timbers are mortice and tenioned, half lapped and other traditional timberframing techniques. I do not use pegs because they do not meet european fire codes (which are superior to American fire codes)
"Cross Pegging"!?! Jeff, what sort of crazy stuff have you gottin into?
I'm sure they didn't show THAT on PBS yet!
PS, If you think my talking about how bad I am at hammering is funny, you should actually see me do it. Well, try to do it anyway.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
>> DIY's like myself like them because we are not experts in hammer technique,<<How can a grown man not know how to use a hammer and hit a nail in the right way? I can't figure this one out. I learned the first day on the job as a 19 year old punk kid. It doesn't matter whether your a DIYer or someone who does it for a living. What is the big mystery about hammering a nail??????Joe Carola
It's no mystery, but it's an art/craft/skill that takes time to master and practice to maintain. Yeah, anyone can take a nail and pound on it, but it's not that easy to have such an accurate aim that you don't bend every other nail, especially when you're trying to sink a 16d common into framing with a lot of bounce. Add some awkward angles and it can become just about impossible for the weekend carp to get a nail in.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>> but it's an art/craft/skill that takes time to master and practice to maintain. <<Dan,Art/Craft/Skill ?? How much time does it take to master banging a nail in?I've never used 16d nails for framing. Only 8d and 10d. Is that the reason why it takes so much time for someone to learn how to hammer a nail because their using 16d's?I'm talking toe-nail and face-nailing. How much practice does a grown man need? I completely disagree with all this because of how fast I learned and everyone else around me learned as a kid. This makes absolutely no sense to me that a grown man can't hammer a nail in. It's not rocket science. It's a hammer hitting a nail. My 8 year old can do it. If he can the rest of the grown men in the world can.Joe Carola
My 7 year old daughter is not too bad at it either.
Maybe we'll have both of them teach a class.Joe Carola
LOL.When I came up in the trades we would have nail-offs to see who could plunge a 16d (ardox no less) in first. When I showed up with my first 22 oz. Estwing it was like bringing a gun to a knife fight.
I used a 28oc Estwing with the waffle head. I'll never forget when I hit the wrong nail (my left thumbnail) and felt the pain. Still never used 16d's though.Joe Carola
Where did the OP go?
THis thread has gone to the crap in a hurry.
Turned out to be a contest of who can drive a nail more bestest than the next guy.
"THis thread has gone to the crap in a hurry. "
Yeah ... because it started off with such promise!
anyhoo ... to any of the girls here who can't hit a nail with their purse .... ever think of actually trying ... and practicing ... instead of looking to see whick screws match yer shoes?
Not sure when I started trying to opperate a hammer ... was a little kid ... and I remember crying about it as much as the supposed grown men here ... luckily for me my Dad was standing near ... and wouldn't let me quit!
mighta been the fact we had a drill ... and a screw driver ... but the drill just drilled and the screw driver was "manual" .... so learing to hammer was it.
U wanna learn to build yer masterpieces?
Crawl before Y run .... learn to use a freaking hammer!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"anyhoo ... to any of the girls here who can't hit a nail with their purse .... ever think of actually trying ... and practicing ... instead of looking to see which screws match yer shoes?"I think I just found my new tagline. Thanks for the laugh.Tua res agitur, paries cum proximus ardet ~ Horace
"Thanks for the laugh."
just doing my job!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I think the OP is bogus and just wanted to bring all the old shibboleths out of the closet for another fiery go around. Nails vs screws indeed.
As a diy occasional poster I always enjoy it anyway. I can't believe you guys fall for this every time.
It's getting hard to pick just one good laugh out of this threadBut jeff do shine!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
******* anyhoo ... to any of the girls here who can't hit a nail with their purse .... ever think of actually trying ... and practicing ... instead of looking to see whick screws match yer shoes? .......Crawl before Y run .... learn to use a freaking hammer!*****
OK Even this girl thought that was funny ;-) But then again I can hammer 12ds into header hangers. I cussed so loud the entire time that even my advisor in the pacific NW may have heard me. Thanks John ! It wasn't exactly easy for me but I did it. I did buy a set of nail guns after the first couple of doors but because it's faster & easier but not because I couldn't do it. Bobbi
as long as I can still make the pretty girls laugh ....
my work here is done!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
>>>Yeah ... because it started off with such promise!<<<
You have that one right. Thoughts determine what you want,Action determines what you get
so after a bunch of reading i've decided that allot of you pros are lousy at taking a compliment.using a hammer is a difficult skill to master.
and just because all your friends and relatives can use one still does not make it easy.are your friends hairdressers? dental hygienists?
i suspect they are tradesmen.did you teach your children the subtle but important ways to control the hammer?
or maybe let them play with for hours while they learn on there own.by way of example:a good friend of mine(auto/deisle mechanic)
was laboring to dig out about 25ft of barberry(Berberis thungbergii [ i hate this stuff])
when i arrived at his house.
he had dug about 5 feet of it in an hour.i dug out the rest in about 20 minutes.all about technique.espalier
For my son's 3rd birthday (over a year ago) we had a "truck and tractor" party. I made up 16 truck/tractor kits out of plywood, 2x3, and 1/4" threaded rod. Depending on how you you put it together (18" to 24" toy when you got done with it!), you ended up with a semi-trailer with a flatbed, or a tractor with a low cart. Managed to find a cheap source of 7/16 and 11mm wrenches for everyone to use.
You could tell none of them had ever turned a wrench before. That deft little flick with the fingers until you slide it deep into your palm for the final torque - just not there. What I expected to be an easy thing for parents and kids to do together turned into an hour long ordeal for these poor dads! Lucky all the kids were happy to run around the yard while I managed the sweatshop.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
125 posts later the original poster hasn't ever returned..
No doubt he's shaking his head saying whats with these kooks?
Maybe we have been "Panty Raided" by the cooking, gardening or sewing posseWars of nations are fought to change maps.
But wars of poverty are fought to map change.
ask the gardening folk which of these you sould plant:Alianthus,
tree-of-heaven,
honeysuckle,
virginia creeper
or chinaberry.
say you are zone six.i cant make that mischef with my screenname being what it is.
"...using a hammer is a difficult skill to master."
Now just think about this a minute. A hammer is basically a club, but over hundreds of thousands of years has evolved to be light, ergonomically friendly, long-lasting and task specific...there are ball pien hammers, sheetrock hammers, framing hammers, finish hammers, ad nauseum, all designed and improved to make whatever hammering you choose to do easier and more efficient.
To quote a current commercial "it's so easy a caveman could do it."
Now, suck it up and learn how to do it....no more whining about how complex hammering is.
:-)
And I do a lot of gardening in my spare time and espaliering is more difficult than driving nails! (I can do both, and NEITHER are rocket science.
Edited 3/12/2007 9:38 pm by Notchman
i'm not whining,
i'm stating,and i am ok with a hammer,
but only ok.i've seen folks (you?)
drive crooked nails in straight.i mostly drive 4d and 5d
box nails to fix apple boxes.
boss likes me to use a 20oz hammer
i use a 12oz, he calls it a "kids hammer"
I'm a lover, not a hammerer.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"...using a hammer is a difficult skill to master."
And getting hammered is even easier! (Getting nailed is a bit harder. And getting screwed is the easiest of all.)
Any one check and see if this guy took his Q over to JLC???I still think we been had by the haute cuisine posse...Wars of nations are fought to change maps.
But wars of poverty are fought to map change.
Hey quit picking on girls here !My daughter could drive a roofing nail when she was only three and she graduated to framing nails by time she was eight.She can shoot pool too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I hate it when I smack the wrong nail. I can debark my thumb in a hurry.
I know you toe nail your studs, what size nail do you use for nailing top plates together? Or walls into partitions? 12's maybe? Just different to hear how things are done in other areas.
>> I know you toe nail your studs, what size nail do you use for nailing top plates together? Or walls into partitions? 12's maybe? <<Stilletto,I use 8d for toe-nailing studs. I use 10d's for everything else and no 12's.
Joe Carola
I would like to see this toe nail framing one day. Just out of pure curiousity. I am not saying one method is better than the other, just have never seen a house framed in the ways you describe.
Thanks Joe.
Stilletto,As soon as I know how to post a video on here I'll take one and show you how easy it is.Joe Carola
8d for toenailing studs??? Does the nail even penetrate the plate?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>> 8d for toenailing studs??? Does the nail even penetrate the plate? <<No Dan, they don't. Every house and addition I've framed and thousands of other houses that are framed with studs using 8d's don't hit the plate.Common Dan, get serious. Are you going to try and make this this a debate or an issue where you don't believe me that we use 8d's for toe-nailing because you don't? We use 8d's and they penetrate the shoe and top plates and all the houses are standing and still standing. Anything else?Joe Carola
That's the way I was taught, 8d for toe-nailing. I just checked CABO and the CMHC (Canadian) building code books and they both state 8d for toenailing studs to plates, 16d for end nailing.
(Though I have been known to use 16d for that purpose, but that's beside the point.)
8d for toenailing studs??? Does the nail even penetrate the plate?
MA State Building Code specs toenail connections with 8D nails. Face nailing with 10D, 12D or 16D depending on the application.View Image
I'm thinking I must have been pretty good at it by the time I was 14 years old as my dad had me build a shed out back. It's still sanding... And that was more than a few years ago :-) I think it was before pressure treated wood and I know there was no OSB back then...
Then why don't you having your 8-year-old do it -- put together a small studwall, eg, including toenailing the studs.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>> Then why don't you having your 8-year-old do it -- put together a small studwall, eg, including toenailing the studs. <<Why Dan, do you need to be taught how to use a hammer from an 8 year old? Dan, do you have a problem with me for some reason? I think it's juvenile that a grown man can't hammer a nail in and some people think that it's a special skill and takes a whole lot of time to learn you obviously don't. Why don't we just leave it at that. You're not going to change my mind and I wont change yours.Joe Carola
You seem to have a problem with folks who say they have trouble nailing things together. Why is that??? Not everyone has the natural coordination and muscle strength to be effective with a hammer, especially when the work is in an awkward position or not well supported.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>> You seem to have a problem with folks who say they have trouble nailing things together. Why is that??? <<I don't have a problem with people who nail things together, I just think they're to dramatic or over thinking the issue when they say things like the guy was saying that he's a DIYer and likes using screws because he doesn't like using hammer because he's not an expert in hammer techniques. I don't think that you have do be an expert with some kind of hammer techniques to drive a nail in. It's that simple. You said that, "It's an art/craft/skill that takes time to master and practice" which I disagree with. Besides I wasn't even talking to you anyway, you brought this up to me. If you don't agree with me then end it.I toe-nail everything and a lot of you guys face-nail everything. I would say that toe-nailing is a little more difficult than face-nailing. Are you and other people having trouble face-nailing?I realize that there are many many DIYers here, but if they can take the time to learn how to use a drill/screwgun or by hand and toe-nail screws and face-nail screws the right way then they can sure as hell learn how to hammer a stinking nail in. Maybe not!Joe Carola
Edited 3/11/2007 10:56 pm ET by Framer
OK, I was only funnin' you. Everyone should know from birth how to use a hammer, including being able to toenail without getting the stud off the mark. Nothing at all to learn -- no skill involved.And can you believe the idiots who don't know how to do something simple like wire a 3-way. That's something I could do when I was eight.Or use a Rotozip? Took me maybe five minutes to figure that one out. (I'll admit I was a little slow, but I hadn't slept that well the night before.)How about strike a square line in an unsquare building? Third grade geometry, Or figure the volume of a concrete form? That's second grade, unless it involves a circle, then MAYBE third grade.Yeah, these are all things that any DIYer should know -- shouldn't bother coming here asking about, or looking for alternatives. (Unless they're idiots, of course.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>> OK, I was only funnin' you. Everyone should know from birth how to use a hammer, including being able to toenail without getting the stud off the mark. Nothing at all to learn -- no skill involved.And can you believe the idiots who don't know how to do something simple like wire a 3-way. That's something I could do when I was eight.Or use a Rotozip? Took me maybe five minutes to figure that one out. (I'll admit I was a little slow, but I hadn't slept that well the night before.)How about strike a square line in an unsquare building? Third grade geometry, Or figure the volume of a concrete form? That's second grade, unless it involves a circle, then MAYBE third grade.Yeah, these are all things that any DIYer should know -- shouldn't bother coming here asking about, or looking for alternatives. (Unless they're idiots, of course.) <<Dan,That explains it all.I didn't realize that you're a DIYer and I touched a never with you. Why don't you try to see what's easier, toe-nailing a screw into a stud with a drill or screw gun or by hand compared to using a hammer and nail into a stud. That should be an interesting project for a DIYer like you.Joe Carola
Well, I was trying to figure out how many studs I've installed in my life. I was thinking 4, but then there were the eight or ten nailers I installed three years ago in Tennessee. Of course, none of these were new work -- all remodeling/repair of one sort or another.But I've toenailed a fair amount more than that -- certainly a common need when insearting blocking or bracing into existing framework. On a good day, when the wood's fresh (not aged 50 years), the mating surface is firm (not bouncy), and there's room to easily swing a hammer, I can do a halfway decent job. But those conditions rarely hold in the type of work I do.I started using screws about 25 years ago when remodeling the downstairs bath. I tried initially nailing things, but found that about 50% of the time there was no room to swing the hammer. Now, I suppose someone who swings a hammer all day could have done it, with only 6-8 inches of hammer clearance, but I don't and I couldn't.I also, on that project, came to appreciate how using screws doesn't threaten to knock the plaster off the walls. Again, someone with blacksmith arms could set a nail in two or three strikes, minimizing the damage, whereas it would take me ten or more, especially if the framing is bouncing.And did you know that probably one person in 20-30 has some form of genetic muscle disorder that causes their muscles to fatigue rapidly? Several folks have mentioned that they have enough power but can't hammer for very long without pain and fatigue -- likely some of them have one of these disorders.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>> And did you know that probably one person in 20-30 has some form of genetic muscle disorder that causes their muscles to fatigue rapidly? Several folks have mentioned that they have enough power but can't hammer for very long without pain and fatigue -- likely some of them have one of these disorders. <<Dan,Look,if a guy comes on this forum and tells us that he's going to build a house or addition himself even if he's a DIYer and says that he's going to screw the whole house in, that means that he/she is capable of physically working with their hands. If they have some kind of disorder than they have to do what they have to do. I would never say anything about that nor have I said anything about that or even read anything about that. We're not even talking about that.I'm just saying that I don't think hammering a nail is a special art/skill/expert techniques involved to do so. I personally think that toe-nailing a screw into a stud with a drill/screwgun would be more difficult to get used too then learning how to hammer a nail into one with someone with no muscle disorder.Joe Carola
Framer,
I'll reply to you as I did to others..
I can no longer tap and flush a 16p nail with a single blow.. I could in my youth but there are real good reasons why the local carpenters union gives full retirement benefits to anyone over the age of 55 (I'm past 58)
Besides Not all men could ever do a decent job with a hammer. They may have lived mainly sedentary lives, thay may be weakened by illness or stroke. Not many women can as well.
My daughter laughs at my computer ability. others laugh at my skills or lack of skils in other areas.. Doesn't reduce my manlyness. If you'll look at the home I'm building it clearly doesn't reduce my ability to construct.
Joe, you are so good at what you do you forget what it's like for all the unfortunate others. You are at the pinnacle of your profession, guys like me are kind of hard to see near the bottom, through the haze.
I understand where you are coming from too, it's a fairly simple concept: Smoothly accelerate a weighted object attached to a lever to drive a metal spike into a softer material. It's not like I'm a tool idiot either, I've been in and around shops since I could walk. I can shape metal pretty well with a ball peen, and I can drive things pretty well with a sledgehammer too.
Really though, I'm framing hammer retarded. Case in point: I just put in some Simpson hangers on the rafters in my bedroom/bathroom that I'm remodeling. I was attaching them to the face of the top plate using four coated 10d nails, driving them with a 28oz waffle head Stanley Fat Max framing hammer. Of the 11 tiedowns I put up, I bent every 6th nail to the point I had to pull it and start over. Only hit my thumb once. Wrist and shoulder hurt all the next day. That was for only 44 easy to hit nails.
Piffen, I was even trying to get them down in less than three swats - could do about 50% of them like that.
If you still don't get how awful I am at this,try this exercise: Take your weak hand, tape any two fingers to your palm. Using the rest of your hand, pick up the hammer. Now have your buddy hit you in the shoulder as hard as he can. Keep him around, he's gonna keep hitting you every 10 nails you drive. Let me know how that works out for ya!
EDIT to add:
I just measured myself - 7"
I'll bet yours is much bigger than mine.
I am of course talking about wrist circumference!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Edited 3/12/2007 12:01 am ET by xxPaulCPxx
Paul,
I'll bet a lot of the "experts" here who frame for a living have lost a lot of their technique because now days most nails aren't driven in with a hammer, they are shot in with a nail gun..
It's so bad That I saw a guy wrestle with an air hose and a jammed nail gun for several minutes just to tack one nail as a piece to use his tape measure to measure from. He could have had any of his crew that was standing around giving him advice simply hold one end for a total of maybe 10 seconds but that's just not how he did things..
Buy yourself some nail guns, they are getting pretty darn cheap especially at second hand stores since a fair number of carpenters have had to move on.. you need the air anyway for you car things.
I had the air for my car stuff and simply hooked the nail guns up to it. Whatever you do don't buy a Porter Cable nail starter system.. Good at starting nails they are mediocer at setting nails flush so you'd need to drag a hammer out anyway.
As for nailing Simpson brackets in place a palm nailer is a wonderful tool.. Fits in incredible tight spots and just a BBUUUURRRRPPP!!!! and the nail is flush. It even stops hammering automatically when the nail does get flush.. really cool tool.
Finally trim nailers. If you do trim work or molding or anything small and delicate a simple point and pull the trigger and it's fastened.. makes you feel like a real craftsman.. Here Porter cable isn't bad..
I'll bet if you shop agressively you'll find all three guns in decent shape for $100 or so. use them aND SELL THEM FOR THAT SAME $100.00
Oh, I've got my eye out for a Bostitch that will shoot framing nails as well as TECO's... actually I'm waiting for Harbor Freight to come out with their knockoff!
Unfortunatly, my wife has a better eye on the budget. With $1600 worth of fixtures to buy still, a $160 tool to shoot 44 nails doesn't quite balance out... for now at least.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Paul,Dovetail is right on. Save that 28 ounce hammer for driving stakes and get yourself a 16 or 20 ounce hammer. You will love it. And forget that stuff about sinking a nail in 1 or 2 blows. There's nothing wrong with tapping them in, or palm nailers would be illegal!Bill
I've got my eye out for a Bostitch that will shoot framing nails as well as TECO's...
I've got one that never gets used anymore. Email me if you're serious and we can work something out.View Image
Paul and Frenchy
In my hayday (dont know if thats came yet or still on the way) I couldnt nail a 16 with a tap and one swat. Hell why do you have to sink it with one hit?
I have never been able to used a framing hammer except when I do demo work. I cant swing one for more then 1 hour without wanting to throw the damn thing as far as I can. If someone can get their nails drivin with one swat and it takes me two or three...........or four or five, well hell, good for them, they can go pick up their medal in the front office!
I know an old carpenter around here that never used anything but a Plum 16 oz hammer and his houses got built, and built well.
Doug
Whoa fellas....
why wasn't I notified about this!!!
1) Some here have suggested that the OP hire an engineer...
I got 12 cases of milkbones at 50 to 1 that he IS an engineer.
B)Why are we wasting time here?? most important now is Syracuse was not given a spot in the tourny!!! (this is the first time I have ever NOT wanted Dick Vitale to shut up)
III) THIS is the kind of "builder" Taunton-Lowes is aiming for...
SAD I tell ya, Just SAD...Wars of nations are fought to change maps.
But wars of poverty are fought to map change.
Buy a gun if for no other reason than it hurts less. I've driven three nails through my fingers with an framing nailer, and hit my thumb countless times with my hammer. I'll take the pain from the nail over the hammer any day.
If you are hand nailing thru your fingers, you're going way too fast!
That's right, and I've done it myself
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not just fingers, fingersandtoes!
every court needs a jester
Please don't bring up my toes.
I am beginning to think the original poster was a troll. He will be back on April first to ask about hanging cabinets with drywall screws.
He came, he saw, he conquered.
be conquered.
do you concur?
be a cur
be
every court needs a jester
He came, he sawed, he nailed it. (Or did he screw it?)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"who frame for a living have lost a lot of their technique because now days most nails aren't driven in with a hammer"Right ion
Every time I go back to it - it takes ten or twenty nails before I have the rhythm back;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hmmmm, wonder why the OP hasn't shown his face again?"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
Piffan,
You're doing better than the guy I watched today. Honestly he bent 9 nails before he set one straight enough to hook his tape measure over and take a measurement. I didn't dare laugh out loud, the redness of his face and as short as his fuse appeared caused me to politely smile and say" I'll see you when you aren't so busy"..
Honestly I have a dozen stories about guys so wedded to their nail guns they forgot how to hand drive nails properly..
I was taught to pound nails by a man who was still swinging a hammer in his 80's (back in the 80's). He taught me to feel the tips of the nails and position the two sharp edges at the point of the nail across the grain. This was done especially when toenailing or nailing at the end of a board to minimize splitting but it also makes driving the nails easier.The sharp edges cut the fibers making room for the nail, rather than wedging the fibers apart with the rounded edges of the nail point. The old guy told me that once I got used to this method, it would not take anymore time...should just be automatic.When hand nailing, I still reach for the tips of the nails and instinctively roll them to cut across grain.I wondered if you or any others here learned to handle nails in this way.I learned this in Colorado, but the old-timer (Paul Sandoz) was from Oregon (where he settled early enough to have places on maps named for him.
Yes, I was told by the framer I worked with to use the nails to cut across fibers when nailing stuff that was inclined to split--also told to rub the nail on my nose or in my hair first to get some oil on it to prevent splitting.
--"Yes, I was told by the framer I worked with to use the nails to cut across fibers when nailing stuff that was inclined to split"I do think that technique really helps. Stuff like that is being lost with the advent of the nail gun (and the lack of serious apprenticeship). That said, if I have more than one wall to frame...I get out the gun.Hey, what are you doing with that nail up your nose?
Well, he was checking to see which way the wedge on the point was facing, and he pulled the trigger.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Hey, what are you doing with that nail up your nose?
I hate it when that happens--only thing worse is when, you know, how when you put a meat thermometer up your nose and then hit it with a ball peen hammer? That really hurts.
[From the SNL skit where the two security guards talk about stuff.] (I haven't actually done it myself!)
Paul,
Not gonna argue right or wrong but will say something about the tools used.
My 2 cents is get rid of that hammer unless you are a pretty big man. I have framed off an on for thirty years now, sometimes day in day out for months on end. I once in my stupidity of youth used a 28 then a 30 ounce hammer. Got rid of them and have used nothing but 20 or 22 ounce since. Much easier on the arms and shoulders.
Even experienced guys have trouble nailing high or overhead unless they have been doing a lot of it for several days at a time. It isn't the normal position for nailing and is very tiring.
Platform framing requires using the back muscles to swing the hammer and give it force, not the arm muscles. A good framing swing has the arm fairly relaxed and the back raises and lowers the whole arm to provide the power.
I probably bend or have trouble driving the small TECO nails just as often as you do .
You got me falling out of my chair laughing here. Thanks.
All in good spirits ..."Smoothly accelerate a weighted object attached to a lever to drive a metal spike into a softer material."
Maybe that is the problem! You don't do it like that. You just grabthe hammer by the end - no the other end - and hit the nail - no not your thumbnail - in line with the dirction you want to drive it.My wrist 7" too.But the muscles that control the hammer are in the arm and hand
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
7" - Dang! Your either 4' tall or you got girly hands like me!
It's partly muscle, partly connective tissue. Doesn't take me long to seek the comfort of an ice pack.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I would say that if you have such limited understanding of construction dynamics that you'd propose such measures, then you really should not be building a house.
Sorry to be so blunt but sometimes that is the best way to save someone from making a huge and possibly dangerous mistake.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Here is some friendly advice:
Weather you are building this house yourself (literally) or using subs, if you want to add strength to the framing, use good sheathing and some extra Simpson brackets as stated above. Other than that you will need to save your time and money for other critical path items. By this I mean that you WILL be over budget, and your time WILL be stretched so very thin, that by the end of the project you WILL be out of resources.
Also, if you do use a framing sub and you start up with unusual requests like screwing studs, etc, it won't work out too well at all - ie, you will end up in an adversarial situation and they will charge you way more than you think you should be paying.
A tough, tight, strong house will have timberstrand studs and plates.
That'd be sweet.
-chuck
Construction adhesive between the end of the studs & plate will do next to nothing. Adhesives don't really hold end grain that well.
What have you been smoking?
-Lou
None of these jackasses is going to admit that any of your plans will result in a stronger better house, because if they do, their past customers are going to ask them why they didn't build their house better if they were able to. Science has proven that glue and screws both will result in a stronger house. The data is out there it's been tested over and over.
Rube2112 -- Funny, you and I are both looking at a post that was last used in 2007! I haven't read all the older posts here, I skipped to the most recent (yours). My first thought on the original post was that it's up to the guy if he wants to overbuild it, along with the cost and labor that comes with that. It's his choice. My dad and I overbuilt everything. I'm looking at the kitchen cabinets right now that we built in 1993. They look like they were installed yesterday and everything functions like new. And my wife has the weight of an elephant in them. OK, maybe I would build a different style now, but that's not a consideration here. New materials and technologies might come out in the future which would allow an even stronger construction, but you can't wait for that. The only downside I've experienced to overbuilding is when you go to modify it or take it down. It can take a bit more effort then.
As to his actual ideas:
I'm sure the proper screws (not drywall screws!) would be as strong or stronger than nails and hold as well or better. Somewhere there has to be data on this, as you say. More (quantity) is not necessarily better. To make my point to the extreme, 50 nails from a plate into a stud won't be strong! So regardless of nail or screw, you need to know how many to use and the proper placement.
As for the construction adhesive on each end of the stud, it can't hurt. I'm sure an honest adhesive manufacturer would help with info on this. I know I always use some sort of glue or adhesive when I assemble RTA furniture for a friend and I'm convinced (but haven't done a scientific study to prove it!) that you have a better finished product.
So (and it's irrelevant now, surely the OP has already built his house - although if I were the OP I'd still be planning and getting around to starting) if the guy wants to do anything in the way of making a better/stronger structure, go for it. Just make sure what you do doesn't result in a lesser structure. So the worse case is he goes for it and doesn't gain from it but doesn't lose.
Yeah i knew it was old but I just really can't stand those guys that smash your ideas out of fear of it hurting their business. Usually the guys that I see that act like that are the ones that shoot a whole row of nails into flooring and not a single one hits the target stud.
Interesting, isn't it, how when you see truly good construction, it jumps out at you without you even realizing right away what is good about it. It just has a look. My wife hates my comments after seeing a new house, someone's remodel, etc.