Hey guys,
I am researching the best finish for a red oak floor. I have been asking around and there are some guys that swear by Glitza and some that swear by polyurethane. From what i have been able to ascertain:
1. Glitza will not “yellow” over time
2. Glitza is more durable
3. Glitza is very toxic
4. Polyurethane will “yellow” in time and is not quite as durable but is much better in regards to residual toxins. A pregnant women will be living in this house about 2 weeks after the application.
Can any of you guys clarify this argument?
regards
Replies
If the lady is sensitive, neither is ideal. Cue Frenchy.
Bill
Dude,
Your help wanted in this thread.
Bill
Too bad Frenchy hasn't learned how to copy/paste yet. This'll be an hour of typing for him.
Frenchy? (Buhler?) Frenchy?
is this something your going to finish yourself? have you been able to find glitza that you can buy ,i couldn't when i was looking for it.
how about a water base poly? seems to me with oil poly it smells alot for 24 hours then after 3 days there is no smell at all.
larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I have a maple floor and I used two coats of shellac (Seal-Coat, it's dewaxed) followed by three coats of Parks water-based poly for floors.
The sheallc is about the safest finish you can use, it's not really long-term durable like poly but it is very easily renewed.
JonE
Too bad you put that poly on the shellac..
If you hadn't you could have shocked yourself with just how rugged and durable shellac is..
It's the perfect finish if you have 150 pound dogs who thinks he's still a puppy (and absolutely refuses to trim his claws)
Like you I thought shellac would be tender and brittle.. In fact I walked tippy toe in my stocking feet the first day or so..afraid of ruining it..
Today I stomp around in my dirt encrusted work shoes and pretty much ignore the floor. Once in a while I take a slightly damp mop to it and remove the dust etc. and then stand back and admire my work.
Sure you can hurt shellac, heck you can hurt the polyurthane simply by spilling the wrong stuff on it. So you try not to spill stuff or use the wrong stuff to clean it.. and it's OK. The only trouble is the polyurethane is plastic looking,.... makes the wood look cheap.
If that was all shellac it would look like a fine antique with real depth and luster.
Plus sooner or later you will need to refinish your floors. Polyurethanes will require you to sand and endure all the resulting dust etc..
Shellac on the other hand simply requires some denatured alcohol to remove. It then wipes right up. no sanding required (except to repair any damaged wood but that can be extremely local)
HunterS
May I suggest that you try any finish on a test piece? Give it time to dry and fully harden..
What you will find will amaze you..
Common perceptions are wrong!
Shellac is harder than other floor finishes and more durable!
plus it's cheaper, safer, easier, and vastly easier to repair should the inevitable mistake or goof happen..
Please chalenge me on any of the above statements.
But one thing you will not be able to challenge me on is beauty.
Fine antiques are always refinished in Shellac.. Shellac will bring out the full beauty of wood in a way that no other finish can approach.
If you want a simple, durable, non toxic finish you can easily do yourself and it will only take you about 2 hours to do 500 sq.ft. use shellac.. that evening you can have guests over to admire your work as they walk on it!
frenchyWhat are the drawbacks of Shellac? Can you recommend any distributers/brands? I've been hearing a lot about linseed oil as well.
I suspect "organic" finish/ and sealers will be/are making a large comeback. In Vancouver, a lot of people are concerned about about the health issues involved with breathing in these modern finishes as they cure.
I would imagine that you wouldn't use shellac for a kitchen or bathroom, instead using it in low traffic areas like bedrooms etc.
HunterS,
OK I don't know what you know about shellac but I suspect much of it is false or bad information.
First
shellac is hard.. tougher than most other floor finishes.. My 150 dog proves that as he jumps around like a puppy and doesn't scratch the floor (and no matter how many times I tell him he won't clip his claws!) If he did somehow manage to scratch it I can remove the scratch inside of 60 seconds and you'll never be able to find it!
Second
shellac is amasingly difficult to ruin.. I had an aircondtioner overflow on the floor and leave a great big puddle.. it had been on the floor for hours when I finally discovered it in the middle of the night, but I wiped it up anyway and expected to see it white in the morning.. it wasn't and hasn't turned white yet! Oh I'm sure if you leave a sweating glass on shellac all night in the morning you'll see a white ring.. big deal! It' fixes too easy to get upset over! Honest! you can spend a few minutes and have it fixed completely so nobody can tell. No sanding, no muss, no fuss!
Third
while certain chemicals are capable of damaging shellac (ammonia) certain chemicals will damage any finish, so be carefull and listen when they say to use just a lightly dampened mop if you must.
Fourth,
don't let your friends spill their beer or wine on the floor. If they do, wipe it up and no damage will really occur as long as it's done quickly.. Frankly if your friends are pouring that fine single malt scotch on your floor instead of down their throats you've got to ask yourself are they really your friends? In the real world the alcohol content of most drinks is too low to quickly damage the shellac.. a typical mixed drink/beer/wine has less than 10% alcohol in it and even if they are drinking straight shots of everclear (?) it has only 1/2 the alcohol content of denatured alcohol..
Fifth,
traffic, on shellac is like traffic on any wood finish.. it will eventually wear away the finish if you walk on it in your street shoes with dirt encrusted in them.
The differance is that any other finish you use will require sanding and then a complete redoing of the finish.. a few days at least plus all the dust and expense.
Shellac however you simply wipe up the high traffic areas with denatured alcohol and then recoat with fresh shellac. The new will melt together with the old and leave a completely invisable repair.. The differance? you could easily repair the high traffic areas in shellac in a few hours yourself for very little cost whereas the other finishes require sanding and a whole lot of waiting time It may be a couple before days before you can once again walk on it.. Plus every sanding means you are that much closer to needing a new floor!
If you want I'll talk you through the whole process. It's so simple even a caveman could do it! (sorry all you cavemen)
OK, I assume that you know shellac is biodegradeable and renewable. It comes from the butt of bugs not a petroleum refinery..
You've been eating shellac all of your life.. it's on most pills and a lot of candy.. Alcohol in excess isn't good for you, so leave a windows open while it's drying.. 15 minutes first coat 30 minutes second coat and an hour third coat. Afterwards for a little while you might detect a slightly sweet soft gentle smell but that too is gone quickly.. If you start to do a typical room in the morning you won't be able to detect anything by lunch time..
Here in America in order to sell alcohol without the federal tax included it's denatured.. various companies denature alcohol by various means none of them good for you but it only takes 2% to denature something so we're speaking about very tiny amounts.. however whatever you do don't drink denatured alcohol..
As for brands of shellac.. I like Zinssers, they sell a three pound cut premixed shellac for less than it would cost to buy the flakes alone! I like the blonde or clear but you can get garnet colored as well, I think they call it amber..
Otherwise flakes involve mixing with alcohol and waiting while they disolve and then straining to remove the unmelted pieces.. That's too messy for me.. too expensive and too time consuming..
If you want I'll give you my idiot proof method for putting shellac on a floor quickly. I tell you that I'm probably the worlds lousest painter and real close to the messiset as well. Yet I can do a job a pro would take bows for.. (and the word careful isn't used once!)
Oh did you know that if you spill shellac on your clothes it'll wash right out? So if you can't afford a brush you can use your stocking feet and when you are done simply wash your socks out!
(I do warn you though, it's extremely cold! ;-)
I would greatly appreciate your step by step shellac application methodology.
I would be interested in learning how to dissolve it in alcohol to make it useable for flooring. I would imagine that using a premixed shellac would be best for matching an existing finish if a buddy spills crown royal on the floor.thanks for your keen interest bud
One advantage of using shellac flakes is that you can get "dewaxed" flakes. Shellac has wax naturally in it. If you ever decided to use another finish over top of the shellac for any reason (like poly, varnish, water-based, etc), it won't adhere to waxed shellac. That's why you see the warning on a can of poly not to use it over shellac. What they are not saying, however, it that it will adhere just fine over dewaxed shellac. Bulls Eye makes a canned dewaxed shellac; I forget the name of the product, but it is not the standard product they sell in the hardware stores. Whatever shellac you use, make sure it is fresh. Old shellac won't harden properly. I wouldn't use anything over six months old. They are starting to date the cans (on the bottom).
Conrad
Conrad,
I'm sorry , Zinssers changed the formlula on their premixed shellac and it's now good for three years + Note the plus is mine, I've used shellac over three years old successfully.
Conrad,Zinsser sells premixed dewaxed shellac under the brand name of "Sealcoat." I just bought a gallon at the Borg last week. It can be used under any finish and over any finish, more or less. Great stuff.Bill
HunterS
If your buddy spills his Crown Royal (neat) on the floor, don't panic.. it's alcohol content isn't that high..100 proof is only 50% alcohol. it's less than 1/2 of what denatured alcohol is and if it's over rocks you have even more time to react.. (the booze quickly melts ice and dilutes it even further)
OK here's the steps.. first don't use flakes!
too much like work, too time consuming and too messy..
OH and it's much more expensive..
First prepping the floor.. sand using finer and finer sand paper until the wood almost has a sheen to it.. the finer grit you use the more gloss and depth the shellac will have..
Now Go buy yourself a gallon of Zinssers bulls eye shellac. (per 500 sq.ft.) two gallons of denatured alcohol not a paint thinner! and if you don't relish bending over, one of those lambs wool applicators.. a nice wide brush will work but you'll be on your knees.
You'll want either a 3M sanding sponge (fine, 220 grit yellow) or 220 sand paper and a sanding block.. Do not under any circumstances use your hand, either a sanding sponge or sanding block.. period. (I'll explain if you'd like) I'm lazy, so I use 220 grit sand paper on a DA sander.. (ones enough for 500 sq.ft.)
Now mix the shellac and denatured alcohol together, stir the shellac for a minute prior to pouring it, stuff will settle and a minutes mixing will put everything back into suspension.
Now dip your applicator into the mix and flood it on. Do it really quickly! and never ever go back over anything ,,.... ever! If you miss a spot don't worry the next coat will melt everything and it will be perfect!.
15 minutes later it will be dry! Now bend over and feel the floor.. those nubs you feel are little wood fibers raised by the alcohol.. you'll want to sand them off..
This is real lick and a promise kinda sanding.. with a sanding sponge or block I spend a second to a second and a half per square foot, even less time with a DA. Don't try to "fix" things just sand off the nubs.. The shellac "fixes" itself by melting into the previous coat, so if you didn't do such a great job welcome to my club. It will be better automatically! (that's why I like shellac so much!) Check your progress by closing your eyes and sliding your hands on the floor to ensure you sanded all the nubs off.. (a real Zen moment)!
Ok wipe off the white powered that results, I use a nice dry towel and then just toss it in the dirty clothes. SWMBO is never the wiser. ;-)
Now flood on a second coat.. same rules apply Flood it on, do it quickly & never go back over.
This coat will take a 1/2 hour to dry.. then double check to ensure that all the nubs are off. If you missed some go ahead and sand that area don't worry! Remember the next coat will melt into the previous coat and make everything better! Wipe up the white powder and go for the third and final coat.
this coat will take an hour to dry but the shellac is still a little tender so walk in stocking feet for a little bit. I'd wait a couple of hours before putting furniture on unless you are really rushed..
Now a couple of points.. thicker is worse not better!
that is, the thinner the final coat of shellac is the better and longer and more durable it is.. however if you want a piano finish on the floor you can keep on applying shellac until you achieve the finish you want.. just double the time between coats.. 1 hour 2 hours 4 hours 8 hours etc..
A couple of points, don't clean the applicator or brush, let it dry and the next time you use it soak it for a bit in denatured alcohol (or shellac) and it will be perfect! Don't you just love a no clean up paint?
if you do manage to scratch shellac, get a rag damp with denatured alcohol and rub over the scratch for a moment.. if small children are present say the magic words abra-cadbra- Alakazam. ;-) (oh and try to remember not to use those words when adults are watching)...
Any shellac you spill on your clothes will come out in the wash..
Have fun!
Thanks for the steps. How do you feel about using it on kitchen cabinets (face frames and doors, already used water-based urethane on the interior)? I don't have concerns about alcohol being splashed on the cabinets, but are there other food/kitchen products that would make it a bad choice for kitchen cabinets? The ease of application definitely appeals to me.I had planned on using "Seal Coat" as a first coat under a few coats of water-based urethane, to get the color of shellac with the protection of urethane. Would you recommend otherwise?A few clarifications: Are you saying to cut the premixed gallon with two gallons of alcohol? Do you suggest this ratio for each coat?Also, the Zinssers shellac that you recommend is not dewaxed, right? Only the Seal Coat is, right?Thanks,-Rich
Rich,
The problem of using it in the kitchen is steam.. If when cooking is done a lot of steam flies about (enough to dampen the wood) then you have to either wipe it off the cabinets or plan on frequent refinishing.. Women will love that.. they like to change their minds frequently. I know, I'm a filthy sexist!
In my home we will shellac all the kitchen cabinets because there is seldom much steam about. The stove is enough distance away from the cabinets that it shouldn't be a problem.
Yes I do mix two gallons of denatured alcohol to one gallon of zinssers bulls eye.
It's over thinned but that's the technique. Flood it on, let it run and all the runs blend together..
Well Frenchy,I have done a few test runs and the shellac is stunning. There is no comparison with the sealer i compared it with. However, I'll hold off on the durability and repair claims until further testing.
Can i use the sealer/finisher zinsier shellac as a sealer and put polyurethane finish on top. I am in the middle of another job and he/she wants the protection of polyurethane. I will do a test run but just looking for more feedback.regards,
HunterS
Shellac is more durable than polyurethane.
I know, I know, I know! I've been fighting that misconception for a very long time..
Take your polyurethane and make your test piece.. let it dry and then stick your thumb nail into it. now stick your thumbnail into the shellac test piece.. try to scrtach both pieces..
If that doesn't prove it to you please look at my floor 86920.13, That floor has had me tromping on it in work boots,, 150 pound newfoundland jumping up and down like a puppy, water flooded on it for hours upon hours,.. and all the construction dust and debris I've created.
If you put polyurethane on top of shellac make sure you have dewaxed shellac so it sticks. When you have to refinish the polyurethane sanding is the only way to remove it.
i forgot to ask why you don't use your hand to sand after a coating.
HunterS
Well you do use your hand but to hold a sanding block or sponge.. ;-)
Look at your hand,, hold it flat.. no really flat! Like a board flat. You can't do it! your fingers put more pressure than the space between them and that results in uneven sanding..skipped spots.. Whenever you are working with paint use a sanding block or sponge to ensure that you apply even pressure..
It matters!
For how long is the Glitza toxicity?
Are you comparing to oil based poly or the latex based?
For near a pregnant lady, frenchy has some good points, after you get past the plaid coat, stripoed pants, and poklkadot tie on his sales presentration
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
PIffin,
I didn't see a little smiley face after the comment.. did you forget?
For what it's worth, I wear a simple blue broadloam shirt over a pair of Dockers Kakki pants when I sell.
I have ten shirts all the same and 10 pair of pants. That way 5 can be in the cleaners and five on the hanger in the closet. Wearing the same clothes makes my life simple.
I've worn that same basic wardrobe for a few decades now. Never owned a poka dot tie, plaid coat, or striped pants.
but then you have never sold used cars, right?;)I did mean that to be a chuckle.Here's another smiley to make up for it;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
New cars count? Actually I've never sold a thing I don't believe in completely. Something I wouldn't buy myself..
thanks for the feedback boys...I'll look into the shellac.
Wait...
>I have ten shirts all the same and 10 pair of pants. That way 5 can be in the cleaners and five on the hanger in the closet.<
5 @ the cleaners5 on the hangar....
Transcending clothing with Mr T???
I know it's years later, but I think you're hot.
My gawd girl......
get a room.
HunterS,
I'm a reasonable DIY, not a professional, so take this for what it's worth. About 25 years ago I did a vg fir floor with Glitza because it was claimed to be tough and that's what I wanted. I can't dispute that claim; however, in my not too humble opinion, it was extremely toxic. I used an organic mask covering my nose but not my eyes. After a while working with it my eyes would burn big time. Washing with cold water worked pretty well. My plan was to do the main living area and work my way into the bedroom where I could crawl out the window and go to relatives to stay. This worked well except that I forgot to turn the thermostat up or down, don't remember which(-20F outside). So I went into the basement through exterior stairs and up the interior stairs to the thermostat and up into the fumes that were laying at floor level. With one or two breaths (I had taken my mask off--ignorance of youth) my nose was completely plugged and remained so for several days. I could taste the Glitza in my lungs for at least 3 weeks. I can't imagine what it would have been if I had been sensitive to fumes--I wasn't at that time. I have no idea about off-gassing, but if I ever even thought about using it again, it would be done by a professional with all the proper equipment. We moved within a short time. Was in the house after about 15 years and it still seemed to be Ok but that was based on just brief glancing around. I'm going to use the shellac on a current project.
Is this the same product as Sikkens Glitsa?I put down a couple of coats of the waterbased Glitsa
on my kitchen floor and didn't notice that the smell
was particularly offensive. Result was much better than the other waterbased
urethanes I had used up to that point, too. Very beautiful
finish.
talking dog,
You haven't seen beautiful wood untill you've seen wood that has been shellaced.. the reason antique dealers all shellac wood rather than use another product is in part because of the beauty of the result.
I've used Glitza in two houses on white oak. I love the way it pops the grain and each house has survived the toenails of large dogs with no problems. On my current house, the dog (rest his soul) got sick in the corner of a seldom used room and it went unnoticed for a couple of days. The Glitsa was completely unaffected. The odor during application is beyond unbelievable. As I understand it, they recommend positive air ventilation, basically scuba gear. I would not to be around it with anything less. That said, once it had cured, there was little if any noticable residual odor, but I would do some serious research before introducing a pregnant woman to that environment.
Quickstep,
Shellac holds up to the problems you've mentioned just as well plus it's ability to "pop grain" as you say is in part the reason fine antique dealers use it..
The beauty is that the odor is not bad (I don't wear a mask or anything and only open a window if I'm doing a large area) while you're doing it and very quickly gone.
I need advice
We just had our new wood floors sanded, stained and sealed. The whole process was a nightmare from beginning to end. The guy I hired was horrible and stupidly I paid him most of the money before he finished. Anyway, what we ended up with is floors that look like I painted them with flat black paint..but that's not the worst of it. When he sanded prior to the last coat of Glitsa he sanded off some stain off of the raised wood grain? Then he used a sharpie to fix it! Now I have very obvious sharpie marks everywhere :( Can we gently sand those areas, apply stain with a q tip and then add a coat of poly or shellac over the glitsa to give it more shine?
I am so heartbroken after this ordeal. I never thought I could cry so much over a floor! :'(
thank you in advance for any help you can offer.