Three old amateur carpenters will attempt this little garage job. How many manhours would you figure to frame, hand-erect trusses, then roof it and finish it in Hardiplank and PrimeTrim? Garage doors by others.
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Once again, a lesson in Estimating:
Erect and finish structure = 3 days / 3 carpenters
1 hr / day / carpenter argue about easiest way to perform every given task
2 hrs / day / old carpenter restroom breaks
3 hrs / day / old carpenter brag about aches, pain, and operations
4 hrs / day / old carpenter brag about girls he could have had
5 hrs / day / old . . . well you get the idea
Whatever you bid, someone else will be lower. I got a cousin that will do it for $2.75/SF
I built almost that exact garage at my old house.
With the exception of the slab, me, my father and a laborer built it complete (not including roofing shingles) in 3 easy days. Maybe put in 4 or 5 hours a day.
My garage was 20 X 30, trusses, t-111 siding
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
27-30 manhours, maybe a bit less due to the trusses.
Doesn't include priming or painting.
I'd think 2 guys could leisurely frame and roof it in one day, and hang siding and trim it out the second day.
Want a late fall vacation in Lake Placid, NY, Mongo? We'll even buy you an out-of-state hunting tag good for whitetail and black bear.
We did one almost identical to this one, in the snow and cold of mid November, not long ago, and put about 160 mh total into it. That shows how old and inept we are. I remember it being well below freezing, maybe into single digits, when we were popping nails through the hard-as-ice shingles. We are trying to learn from the errors of our ways, and hope to better our record, but your figures are worth an invite, a hunting license, gas money, adoration, and probably a bonus check.
The irony is that my numbers are based upon my LAST vacation. Too funny. This is from a few weeks ago:My bro-in-law had a simple but old and failing 2-car garage, very similar in design to yours.Originally I was to have nothing to do with this. His father (elderly, bad heart, but good heart in that he wanted to help his son) figured that the two of them could demo and rebuild the garage, but it had taken them over a week just to tear off the garage roof.I offered to help. Doh!When I showed up he had the shingles torn off the roof. Took me and a sawzall about 90 minutes to get the garage off the slab and into the dumpster.Took a few days off while he had a crew come in and break out the old slab and pour a new one.I then returned and framed and sheathed it in one day. My 14-y.o. son helped some with the framing. My bro-in-law is not knowledgeable when it comes to construction and not confident with tools. We did 2x6 studs, 1/2" cdx on walls and 5/8ths" on the roof. Roof stick framed, 8/12 slope. Framed a scuttle hole up into the garage "attic" and 3/4" cdx on the attic floor joists for storage.The next day was the roof. I'm a slow roofer, but I did have a nail gun. But I'm still slow. Took most of the day to roof, then I finished the corner boards and window/door trim that my father- and bro-in-law had started while I was doing the roof.The third day was finishing the trim and running the siding. Clapboard. My bro-in-law was excellent help on this day, had him cutting on a chop saw while my son and I hung the claps.And as in my previous example, this did not include painting, or the garage doors installed. I never did get around to making a ladder to get up into the garage attic, either.A bit of my time was looking for things, tools, etc, or sending him to the store to buy stuff, plus a bit of time spent explaining and teaching.I'll balance that by saying that I'm very deliberate when I work. Minimal breaks, and I was motivated to complete this so I could get back to the "vacation" part of the vacation.So, three days of my time. I'd say the inefficiencies of it not being my work site (looking for tools, supplies, etc) slowed me down a bit, but that was offset by the limited help from my son and bro-in-law.A couple of capable people working side by side would realize efficiencies.Do you hunt with a framing or finish nail gun? Don't the deer get scared off when the compressor kicks in?Lake Placid...purdy spot up there.Best, Mongo
speaking of work.
You find out if you can sneak out to long island in a couple weekends?
thanks.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I have Sunday free, but I'm trying to get Saturday as well.
Best of luck, sunday is a bit close to the end.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I have a good feeling about Saturday.
Let me rephrase that...
I have a bad feeling about going to work Saturday, which should result in a good feeling about making it to Andy's on Saturday.
"Don't the deer get scared off when the compressor kicks in?"Isn't that the reason Paslode is in business?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Know what...after seeing trout's post I just realized that you're doing Hardie. I did cedar claps. Cedar is SO much faster than hardie.I can't fathom roofing in sub-zero temps. You were working to stay warm, while I was working so I could get back to the lake and cool down.
new beer.
"Ultra" ... belgian amber beer ... according to the lable.
on sale for $50/case ... 7%.
lable is too ... I dunno ... Ultra? for me. Looks too hip.
a product of Belgium ... I'm still not sure.
maybe a poor mans Chimay?
it was recommended my M Jackson ... loaded with spices ...
just doesn't have a crisp taste to me ...
ever hear of it? It was new to me.
Last upscale case was Duval ...
just like Corsendonk ... but better!
this weeks purchase ... Miller High Life.
helps wash down the extra Ultra in the fridge.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
My beer fridge is empty. It's been a sad sad summer!
Good quality framing, roofing, and hardi siding in less than 200 man-hours? You're hired. Come work for us when you're done.
When i was young we built garages, framed walls framed roof sheated roofed it set side door sideing One week 2 men.
About five years ago I personally watched an entire church ( I guess the Jehovah's Witnesses call it a church) probably about 1800 sq ft get built in one three day weekend. Started Thursday evening and by Sunday night, they were applying first coat of paint to exterior. I was in awe of their accomplishment but you could also tell that about 10 to 15 members were either contractors themselves or had done a lot of construction in the past.
I've got that video from the San Diego Chamber of Commerce where a crew sets the record for homebuilding speed.
Stick built, starting from dirt, 3 B, 2Ba, start to ready to move in - paint and sod
700 guys
2 hours, 47 minutes
Forrest
Edited 7/29/2006 3:03 am by McDesign
WOW! That would really screw with the neighbors... LOL
"uh, honey, Where did that house come from?"
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
To survive in our financial realities, we'd probably have to frame, trim and side it in 77 hrs. The shingles would be another 12 hours for our roofing crew but probably more than 20 if we did it.
I'll sing that song in 100 hours!
$5800 firm. includes nails.
One caveat: you can't drop the gable for the lookouts. It doesn't need it. If you do, I'd have to charge you extra!
blue
Me and my boys... 3 days. 5G.
EDIT: Whoops... I just underbid Blue! LOL... see how cut-throat this business is. All right.... $6000. :)
Edited 7/29/2006 11:52 am ET by dieselpig
That wasn't the question, Brian. ;-)
Pretend you are 62 like me, and you have two helpers, certainly OK carpenters, but not one of you works as a full-time framer.
Cannot imagine yourself at 62? Then look around and see if any carps you see on jobs are about that age.
Hey! There is Mr Mike Smith! He's only a year younger! Imagine him an a couple of wannabes.
Yeah but Mike Smith is the exception and not the rule. ;)
I don't see many 62 year old carpenters on sites. I'd like to think they're all in nice cozy shops somewhere crafting fine things with fine tools for big bucks. At least that's what lets me sleep at night when I'm trying to envision myself at 62!
You seem capable enough though. I'm sure you guys will hold your own just fine. Give yourself and extra couple days.... call it a week.... and you'll be good to go. I think most of us look at these BT bidding threads as "how fast and cheap could you do it" rather then where we'd actually come in on a real bid. Maybe it's just me and my competitive streak though. View Image
Diesel, he's an engineer. He wouldn't get the first wall up in a week!
I tossed out an honest assessment of how we'd actually bid that job. We'd let out the roofing unless we were slow and desparate. We know how slow we are compared to the guys we have do our roofing. They do it better too! It's all about specialization.
blue
That was great. :)What's wrong with me? I could ask you the exact same thing.
C'mon, Blue. Gimme a break!
What makes you think us engineers are so slow and inefficient? I learned my engineering, and I think I've been learning and executing my framing carpentry pretty well, too.
I think I'll try something new for this little effort, and set myself up on the fresh slab with the lumber package, then work solo to precut and mark every single piece of frame and sheathing in the kit. It'll be like one of those little Sears houses. A cute craftsman 1.5 story, up the road from our camp, came delivered by the railroad to Ausable Forks, NY, in 1926. Gramps told me that the shipping boxes said on top of each, "Carpenters: do not cut any parts."
Yeah! What you said!
Forrest - B.M.E. Ga Tech 1990
C'mon, Blue. Gimme a break!
What makes you think us engineers are so slow and inefficient?
Editor's note: Folks, we don't have to wait long for the answer to Gene's question....
I think I'll try something new for this little effort, and set myself up on the fresh slab with the lumber package, then work solo to precut and mark every single piece of frame and sheathing in the kit.
Gene, I guess I was right after all! You (the engineer) will spend/waste a great deal of time measuring and cutting parts and neatly organizing them, when a carpenter would spend less time building and framing those same parts.
Seriously, my brother is an engineer. One day I mosied over to his place and found him working in the garage, trying to build shelves. He had been working on it all morning and he didn't have one piece nailed up. He was so busy engineering it all in his mind, he was frozen. I grabbed the tools from his hands and started whacking and nailing. In two hours I had all the shelves built and was helping him load the shelves. All he kept muttering was "how do you know that will work?"
When you think about it, you're constantly asking similar types of questions. You spend time thinking about how long this framing will take, while carpenters spend that time building. We'd already have our cars parked in that garage and you'll still be engineering it.
This is not a put down to you, it's just your nature. That's why you're an engineer and I'm a carpenter.
blue
To be fair then, I'd probably bid it as close to a week's labor as I thought I could get away with. The problem I have with short jobs like that is that I really need to block out a week if I'm going to actually schedule it in. It's a tight squeeze so if the lumber comes a day late or the foundation isn't ready, or we need a couple hours on the other end of the job to button up.... a week's time has gone by to get the job in. That's why we often just do stuff like that on a "Friday, Saturday, and I'll be back sometime next week" type deal... unless they want to pay. Kinda like the problem I have with 1/2 day stuff.View Image
Diesel, I don't understand your "week's mentality".
We probably bid things to the day, but we have no preconceived notion about weeks. I don't care if I start a job on friday, tuesday or anyday. If it's five days, it's five days. If we start on wednesday, we'll be finishing on tuesday.
I don't think we would round up or down either, but we might.
The reason I'm so vague about our bidding style is because I don't think I've been directly involved in the bidding of a project in several years.
blue
I didn't mean so much on a Monday through Friday type week. The point I was trying to make, but apparently didn't do a very good job on, was that I'd add a little more wiggle room into my bid than I did in my original post (my 3 day 5K post). Because having to come back for a couple hours more than I thought I'd need on a small job takes a bigger bite out of the bottom line than a couple hours on a big house or something. That make any more sense? A couple hours quickly turns into a 1/2 day when you have to go somewhere, set up, work a couple hours, break down, drive to the next job, set up, work a few more hours, break down... with four of us on the clock. Not a big deal on a 40K job, but a bigger deal on 4K job.View Image
That makes sense.
blue
Gene, honestly, if there's not too much up and down on ladders and/or scaffolding, I'd say:
A day to dicker an set up
Day 2, frame the four walls.
Day 3, frame the roof and overhangs
4, sheath the roof, prep for shingles (paper, drip edge, grace if required)
5, shingle
6, 7 set the door/windows, hang the siding and and trim. Might take an extra day, so we'll add day 8 to that.
9, prime, electrical?
10/11 paint
Does 11 days sound okay?
"it goes to eleven"
Mongo
Mike could do it faster than me, because he's smart enough to sit in a lawn chair, point his finger, and tell the worker bees to "do this, do that, over there, faster, slower", etc, etc.
He'd get it done and not even break a sweat.
That's smart.
Sorry you said 3 oldermen one is 62, I think 2 weeks would be about right, Figure 3 as one will have a excuse to not show up after a couple of days If one has never done this kind of work you may wind up killing him or yourself before its over
Hey, Bobby, how ya doin?
Here's what us old farts framed up last summer when I wuz only 61.
View Image
The curves slowed us down.
Is that eyebrow in the front trussed or stick? If it's stick, do you have a close up? Actually I'd like to see a close up either way if you have one.View Image
It is stickframed, Brian, but hung from the two-ply girder truss that functions as the gable endwall and pickup for the two front hips. The truss is scissored up so its bottom chords can pick up the barrel vault longitudinal LVLs (bevel ripped) using strap hangers.
As you can see in the pics, the eyebrow roof, top and bottomside, has side fillets from the porchwall line out, while inside the porch, it is a barreled vault sprung up a little each side from the LVLs that duck under the truss and provide its partial bearing. The rafters were bandsawn using fullsized paper patterns glued to the 2x stock with spray adhesive. One pic shows Jack up on a pick, and adjacent his shoulder is one of the rafters with its pattern still stuck on.
We roofed it with conventional architectural asphalt shingles up to the barrel top, but did the curve and its valleys with seamed copper pans.
The concrete slab porch floor was pitched for drainage, so we made good use of the PLS2 laser when setting posts and beams. Had to do it near dawn or dusk. Jack's got the PLS5x now with detector, which we would have used then if he had gotten it earlier.
Oh that is very very cool looking Gene. That's nice work. Even the sheathing cuts look pretty.View Image
You must have gone to Home Depot to get that curved lumber.
All kidding aside... that is beautiful work. You cut from oversized stock... what a lot of work that must have been.
Jeff Buck did a barrel ceiling some time ago and cut his from sheets of plywood then laminated them together IIRC.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Per direction the thread has taken: Some shortcuts are in order: (this from an over 60 engineer, we are not all 'fussy')
1. Why bother with drawings, just visualize it and cut/nail/place. The isometric drawing probably took as long as the building will.
2. Why the need for helpers unless to use the time as Sam said? No helpers means more beer for you.
3. Time to order materials and pickup? Skip that, just use what is laying in the yard, nice big pallets for use as wall is a plus.
4. 22 ft by 28 ft. One day at most, by myself, including garage doors (you do have a couple old doors laying in the back rolled up you can just drop into place, dont you?) .
5. Do not bother with level, square, or tape; only tools needed are nailgun, sidewinder, chain saw, backhoe. (backhoe bucket subs for sledehammer also)
6. Resale quality? None! Lifespan? Longer than me. Functionality? Yes, redneck aesthetics even.
(ref: see " cheapest shed yet" thread. ) <G>
Come on guys I'm 70 & I could do that in 3-1/2 days working alone with nail guns; not counting rounding up materials.Some people have too much standing around & supervisory time.
Jim