My son has a painting contractor friend re-glazing his 35 year-old windows, and then repainting the frames.
Back in the day, we learned that once any part of the glazing had grown hard and shrunk away from the glass, it was a waste of time to just remove the easy stuff, re-putty that, and paint. His friend is doing just that.
We were taught to remove all the old glazing, remove the pane, coat the cleaned up muntin with linseed oil, reseal the pane in the muntins, then reglaze, and then paint. What a pita, but the job, none the less.
Is this just old-school and a waste of time, or is his friend taking shortcuts that will just require the job to be redone in a year or so?
If it doesn’t make much difference, I’m going to keep my own counsel. However, it’s just bad practice, I just may bite the bullet and try to suggest that he isn’t getting the best job done.
Any thoughts?
Mike D
Replies
it was a waste of time to just remove the easy stuff, re-putty that, and paint. His friend is doing just that.
I'm no expert on window glazing but no way would I have a job done like that. Hell what's to say that the rest of the old glazing wont be coming loose in the next year or so? Then what, do the same thing again and again and again........
Makes sense to either do the job in it's entirety or not at all.
Doug
Old school carpenters were paid old school wages. The chances of breaking glass, muntins and the extreme amount of labor would increase the price ten fold. It's really not necessary, practical or affordable. The durability of the repair is more dependant on the paint job and maintaining it. Chances are, the new glazing will rejuvenate the old. You won't have the thickness you would with all new and that's why the old shrunk so much.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
thermal windows anyone?
We were taught to remove all the old glazing, remove the pane, coat the cleaned up muntin with linseed oil, reseal the pane in the muntins, then reglaze, and then paint. What a pita, but the job, none the less.
Nothing has changed. The method you describe is still the best for wood windows of that age. Any shortcut will jeopardize the longevity of the job.
IMO it makes no sense to shortcut the prep work when repainting wooden windows. It's particularly poor practice to remove only the loose glazing.
What may make sense would be to replace the old sash with a new, sealed double-pane unit. Having done both, I'd recommend replacing the old sash, in most cases.
Edited 7/19/2007 4:20 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
if you don't see him with a heat gun and a five in one he's probably taking shortcuts. he's a painter though and might not have much experience glazing.
if i were that concerned i would have hired a window guy for twice the price.
the real question is what do you want to pay for:)
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
Good luck getting your "friend" painter to do any of that. Truth is, you say the windows are what, 25 years old? That means the house is also 25 years old? If that's the case, then don't worry about doing a cadillac reglazing job. Just have the painter do what he's doing and in 5-10 years when all the rest of the glazing falls out, replace the windows. New paint on the sashes will prevent their failure for awhile, and so if you start saving $500-$1000 a year now until they inevitably do fail, then it won't hurt to replace.I removed all my 120 year old sashes, scraped all paint and glazing, carefully removed the glass, oiled the sashes, primed, bedded, pointed, and reglazed all of the panes (13 over 1 dh windows), then primed and two coats of paint. 24 windows. It took me a year of weekends.I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I couldn't afford to pay anyone to do all of that, either.
" ... removed all my 120 year old sashes ... and reglazed all of the panes (13 over 1 dh windows), then primed and two coats of paint."
Kudos to you, sir, for that effort! Just curious ... how many sash did you have removed at any one time, and how did you close up the window openings in the meantime?
Allen
We actually took out the windows 3-4 at a time to work on 'em. We restored the original wood storm sashes which I weatherstripped and hung and used those to cover over the window frames while the primary sashes were out. Those old windows are a system that is designed where its the storm windows that keep out the cold air, not the primaries. So we went all winter with most of the primaries out of the house and it didn't affect our gas bill at all.
I just started today on the very same endeavor. Been here before tho' so I know what to expect as far as rebuilding the old sash goes.
I am looking for new jamb liners tho'
See other thread. Pics to follow soon.
Thanks for the input - it verifies what I was thinking. Howsomever, I discover that the painting company is owned by a woman that went to school from grade-school, on, with my daughter-in-law's sister.
Sooooo, I will wisely keep my own counsel. Sometimes expert opinions are highly unwelcome!Trying to be wise rather than just knowledgeable....Mike D :)
Is it possible to use spring bronze weatherstrip instead?
No, the parting bead has been long gone, and the jambs themselves need to be covered. Old weight pocket/pulley holes, rot, etc.
Not to cross thread, but Blaine was a wash..I don't want, or need, spring loaded, just plain old I_I_I looking liners.
Just curious - you taking care of the Murrays?http://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
Yup.
Major issues. Like Walter's dilemma, I wish I had gotten to it ten yrs. ago.
Or more accuratly, like Stephen Wright's joke. " I bought some used paint, it was in the shape of a house"
These are not windows, they are glass and paint, in painted holes in the walls.
i think you ment to reply to mike d.
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
" ... just remove the easy stuff, re-putty that, and paint."
I've tried to get away with that, myself, but after a year or two there will be a lot of spots where the putty that is again cracked and falling away from the glass.
Allen
I've tried to get away with that, myself, but after a year or two there will be a lot of spots where the putty that is again cracked and falling away from the glass.
I've often wondered whether it was really necessary to bust out ALL the glazing compound when doing a small repair. In most cases, the glazing compound fails at the bottom edge of the bottom sash.
My thought process has been: if the compound is tenaciously holding onto the sash everywhere else, why does it need to be replaced?
Could you supply some more information about what happened in your specific case?
My thought process has been: if the compound is tenaciously holding onto the sash everywhere else, why does it need to be replaced?
It's really a matter of close inspection and how long you want the job to last.
My experience with repainting DF sash is that it takes a lot of careful scraping and sanding, priming and two top coats of paint, in order to give ten years or more of good service. If I'm going to spend that much time and energy doing the prep and brushwork, why would I take a chance with the glazing?
If you want to trust someone to inspect the glazing and leave only the tenacious sections, you're taking another risk. Glazing can look fine but it may only be bonded to the glass, not the wood. There will be only a very thin line of separation, about 1/64th of an inch, to indicate the loss of bond. That can only be detected close up, by someone with good eyes who cares about doing the job well.
Another point is that removing the glass allows for a complete cleaning of the bonding surface and a fresh application of linseed oil. The linseed oil will keep the new glazing from drying out and cracking prematurely.
Also repointing the glass will make a tighter, more secure fit. That will stop movement due to expansion and contraction, another cause of cracked glazing.
HVC,
I think you make valid points about the difficulty of inspecting glazing putty to determine whether it's still bonding to both the wood and the glass.
When reworking original sash, what I've typically encountered is just a couple inches of failed glazing compound, and 90% of the time, the failure is at the bottom rail.
One practical problem I've encountered in the above scenario is removing all the "good" compound without breaking the glass. The original glass is usually single strength, and is pretty fragile. My clients typically enjoy the "wavy" look of the rolled glass, and would prefer to keep the original if at all possible. So sometimes, the risk of breaking the glass has to be a factor in the overall decision.
The linseed oil will keep the new glazing from drying out and cracking prematurely.
I think you've hit upon something very critical there. I seldom see people oiling or priming the glazing rabbet these days. In my opinion, that's the major reason that "reglazing" jobs typically fail before their time.
It's also rare that I see people "bed" the glass these days.
It makes me wonder if premature failures have been blamed on "partial" reglazing when the real culprit was skipping the oil/primer and/or the bedding steps.
Most of my observations, deductions and conclusions on the subject of replacing glazing compound on wooden frame sash has come from the many hours I've been "encouraged" to spend, doing that dutiful work on my parent's home in Los Angeles.
I went through that tedious process twice before finally scraping the old sash and installing new vinyl replacement units, a great improvement in energy efficiency, sound deadening, and a major reduction in annual maintenance time.
I just now got started on about 50 sash...6 0ver 6 panes @ 10x20 inches ea. Thats 300 panes x 60" of putty.
I am using a top bearing 1/2 dia router bit in a trim router, following a straight edge to get the most of the old putty and caulk out, then chisels.
Yup, prime the bed, then bed the glass. OIL primer.
I;ll be at it awhile, most of the sash need rebuilding while I have them out.
God bless ya! More power to ya! Glad I'm otherwise employed. ;-)
I've done so many it is old hat. Kinda like it actually, I look at it like how many can I get done with out braking a pane. Make it a game,LOL
Now them jambliners I have searched high and low for, THAT pizzes me off.
I can bend that profile, but I don't think it'll solve your problem.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
I've come to the same conclusion, that is if we're talking about the same "problem" ....(G)
I've done so many it is old hat. Kinda like it actually, I look at it like how many can I get done with out braking a pane.
I always enjoyed working the glazing compound with the knife. I'm curious, now that I think about doing it on the scale you're talking about, how to you buy the compound, big containers? Do you still roll it out by hand? It seems that a gun of some kind would make laying it in a lot quicker, but still need some skill with a knife.
What's your procedure?
I used to get Dap33 in qts and gallons. Now, for this job, I am using the 33 for bedding, and latex glazing in a caulk tube.
I've used urethane from a glass shop in the past, but it was a pain to work with, and a little too permanent for my likes.
I wear nitrile gloves, roll out the dap in a spaghetti string for bedding, then for the fillet, take a gob in my fist and thumb it in the rabbit real close to final , then strike it off with the double ended knife.
The tube stuff, is quick and almost needs no tooling, if ya get good with the gun...a gun with auto off is a necessity. Skins over quick, so primer can go a bit sooner.
"Latex glazing in a caulk tube"??I haven't seen that - is there a brand that you like, or is it just latex painter's caulk? The stuff that I've tried didn't want to cure in the center if I put it down as thick as glazing.Mike D
It is DAP Latex Window Glazing.
Even has a special tip on the tube to lay a flad bead. I get it at Lowes.
Thanks,
I'll look for it.
Mike D
I spent a bunch of years (25) as a glazier. When I had a lot of reglazing to do, I used an electric putty softener(burner!) with an L-shape frame and coil heating elements (also had solid asbestos insulator!). Often the putty would catch fire, but dang that thing was fast and with a somewhat dull putty knife the old glazing would practically fall out on it's own, with very little scraping needed to produce a rabbet that was ready to prime. You can still get the putty softener tool, but they now use a calrod heating element and ceramic insulator, a considerably slower arrangement than the old 'hotrod'.I've also done wood sash glazing with latex caulk. Lay out a bead, strike off with a bent glazing knife which leaves a strip of excess sealant on the inside perimeter of the glazing bead. When dry, razor off that strip of excess. Of course, the better you are at it the less excess there would be- ideally you would gun just the right amount and there would be no excess.
...electric putty softener(burner!) with an L-shape frame and coil heating elements...
Was this a tool that you used to remove the existing compound from the sash?
I dont want to speak for Ken but I've seen those tools and yes, they are to soften up the glaze on existing sashes.
Doug
Thanks, Doug.Ragnar- Yes, the tool concentrates heat on the putty area of the sash, heating enough to soften the putty making it a lot easier to remove it without taking wood along with it.The only current version I can find is the CRL (C.R.Laurence glazing supply) putty softener as listed on Amazon. I tried to make a link for you but failed............I think I would still use this tool in preference to routing or the Multimaster. Faster and cleaner, I think.
Thanks, Ken (and Doug).
It's funny -- I've read discussions on boards dozens of times about removing old glazing compound, but this is the first I've heard of this tool.
Is this it? Is the underside one big flat surface, or is it relieved in the center?
So how do you use it? Just heat the putty and then scrape it out with a knife? Or does the white/silver part (in the photo) act as a integral scraper?
View Image
Yup, that's the puppy. It's actually 3-sided. It is somewhat relieved on the backside, but more or less flat as I recall. It is intended to be used usually when there is still (some) glass in the sash. The silver part you see in the photo is a heat shield to keep the heat away from the surface of the sash, and I think it is also similarly shielded on the bottom to keep the glass from cracking, all intended to focus the heat on just the putty. The cornered shape will get you into the corners of the sash. As soon as you can get an area hot through and through and maybe smokin' a bit, it's time to move the tool to new section and hold it there while you use a putty knife following behind slicing out the old hot putty. Sometimes really old putty will put up a bigger fight and you have to hold it in place longer. The time factor is what I really like about the old Fletcher Terry putty burner, man, you end up with the putty on fire just a'flyin'! Unfortunately the sash face would get some scorched paint, but no problemo with some sanding, primer and new paint which would usually be on the scope anyway. I actually still have an old style, asbestos and all, that I found in a pawn shop in almost new condition. I know that they also show up on Craig's List etc. on occasion.
looks like something I could use for sure. This putty is like rock in places. The router and edge guide is slow way setting it and clamping, but still faster than knives and such alone.
I quit heat guns yrs ago, too much glass loss.
I'll keep my eyes open for one.
I had a gizmo like an electric soldering iron, that had a razor blade holder instead of a tip. It would melt through the putty, but wasn't terribly fast. I eventually wore it out from use though, the holder fatigued and broke. It was pretty handy.
Ooooo. Now I am thinking. I have a huge 100watt or so soldering iron, i bet I can make a knife tip for it.
After you perfect it, I want one too. Make the knife blade both replaceable and sharpenable.I have one like the previous poster mentioned. Light weight soldering iron that used single edge razor blades in the tip. Too slow.
There was a thread either here or at Knots about reglazing, and somebody who does it for a living was recommending this device:http://www.eco-strip.com/ProdStripper.htmlYou'd have to do a lot of windows to justify the high price ($500), but it can also be used in place of a heat gun for other stripping duties. She also liked this chisel for cleaning out bedding putty:Can't give you a direct link, but scroll down to "Chisel with Roller 1 1/4":http://www.eco-strip.com/Access.html********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Hey! I was JUST thinking about you.
I was sanding with this really great AEG Sander...LOL
Thanks for the links, I think I am doing ok with the top bearing router bit ( so far) the points are the flat triangle type, and not the push points, I am skimming just above them, then pop them out and razor blade the glass.
I ground an old sawzall blade to make a 1/16" chisel, just gets the last of the bedding out next to the lite, and out pops the glass.
I got new glass for 3.00 ea. at my local ACE , pretty good price I think for a 10x20. I stocked up with 6, I know I will bust at least that many.
Looks like I am salvaging the old jamb liners, there is nothing available like I had envisioned using for replacement..oh well.
Back to sanding. Thanks Buddy.
Well, a router set-up that works trumps a new $500 heat machine. But I'm trying to visualize how you do this with a top-bearing bit. do you have to rig some kind of guide stick (for the bearing), or does the molding have some sort of edge the bearing can press against when you are making the pass to remove the putty?When I reglaze a window, I still use the heat gun, but I fashioned a deflector for the nozzle which keeps the heat off the glass. But you still have to be careful.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Yup. It is a 1/2" Dia. x 1" long bit.
I milled a 2x6 down to about 1 1/4" to lay on the sash, so the bearing rides on that and the 1" of cutter just clears the glass. With a trim router, I can one-hand it, while holding the 2x6 along the muntin edge/putty line. Just gotta stop when ya get close to the corner.
Oh, and where the cheek rails have that fattness, I just chip that out with the chisel. raelly not going too bad.
I guess it is eveident I am doing these on saw horses, not off a ladder.
I have a new Fein Multimaster that seems might be viable for removing the old caulk. The only reservation that I can think of is that the blade might scratch the glass - big time - or break it.Anyone use the Multimaster for reglazing? Or not, due to experience?Mike D
The Multi works well to scrape paint but I think it would tend to scratch the glass or tear up the muntins. Anyone use this - http://www.advancedrepair.com/glazing/glazing.htm for glazing? The rotted wood product (Flex Tech) is a fantastic product ... I may try the elastomeric glazing compound.
On this topic you might also appreciate this - http://repairnotes.blogspot.com/
Jeff
Edited 7/23/2007 10:42 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Thanks again for the info, Ken.
Have you ever had any problems with the heat breaking the glass? This thread started on the topic of "reglazes" where the glass was presumably in good shape, and only the putty had failed. I'd be interested to hear your experiences with that.
Thanks,
Ragnar
Steam is the best way I have found to remove the old putty.
Build a steam cabinet out of polyiso insulation boards and an old wallpaper steamer. Put the sash in there for 20 minutes, take it out, and the putty and the paint practically falls off.
FWIW, this is 60 year old lead based paint, covered with latex and who know what all else. I'm sold on this process.
FWIW, most of the old house pros don't like the DAP products - they don't hold up well. Glazol is what I'm using, but Sarco skins faster. Either one will last 60 years or so - so you don't have to do it again (or at least, I won't in my lifetime)
I concur. The DAP products can't compare to Glazol or Sarco-Seal when it comes to glazing windows. This is why pro glass shops don't use DAP glazing compound, but rather use the other two products.
I glazed the vast majority of the storm and prime windows here with Sarco-Seal over 17 years ago and everyone of those is just fine today. The very few that I glazed later with DAP 33 all failed at the bottom rail at around 5 years.
Will try your steam box approach in the future.......even if it means waiting a bit for the wood to dry down again before priming and painting. Sounds like it would be worth the wait.
Have also tried the DAP glazing in a caulk tube and found that it doesn't render a nice end result because the material shrinks significantly when it dries. Since the glazing is thickest in the center area, it shrinks more there and so the end result looks amateurish......as if it was tooled with a teaspoon. Can't really speak to longevity cause that experiment was only about 4 years ago.
We tried using a Multimaster for removing glazing. Didn't work at all for me, but I'm a spaz. I found that a good heat gun worked great. People say to be careful with the heat, but I never once broke any glass due to heat. Don't be afraid of the getting the putty good and hot and soft... the glass probably won't break.Well, there's a bit of discussion on Historic Homeworks Forum about problems with Glazol. I've had total product failure on a few of my sashes, but on the other hand, some of them are fineGlazol is much easier to tool than Dap 33 and skins over a lot faster. The storm windows that I did using Dap 33 4 years ago and have taken Kansas City winters and summers since are holding up great. Of course we let the glazing set up for 3-4 weeks before priming and finished with 2 coats of paint.From where I stand, although Glazol saved us considerable time and was much less frustrating than Dap 33, I would feel much more confident using Dap 33 if I had to do the job over.We never could get ahold of the Sarco products. I bet that they're great, though.
I guess I've tried most every approach under the sun over the years to remove old glazing while saving the glass, except for the suggested steam approach. Chisel, heat gun, Roto-Zip, Multi-Master, router, etc. The heat gun approach was iffy at best, even when the glass was shielded with a piece of sheet metal. Probably lost about one of five or six panes to thermal shock. Substantially higher success rate when I use a piece of old asbestos siding shingle to protect the glass. Still, it's a slow-go heating that old glazing in a cautious manner.
The steam box sounds promising if a total strip and repaint is also in order.
If the old glazing isn't truly rock hard, then it seems that a very sharp chisel alone often works well enough and is actually faster than a cautious approach with the heat gun.... for me anyway. As long as I cut the joint/bond between the glazing and the frame before attempting to remove the glazing from the glass, it's very rare to lose a pane to a crack. Gets tiring on the heel of the hand though.
Fact is that unless a guy is trying to save old wavy glass or similar, it's sometimes faster and cheaper to just break the pane and get on with it. Then a heat gun and chisel can be used to remove the old glazing much faster. Since I can get common window glass cheap enough from my local glass shop, spending too much time being careful with the existing frequently becomes counterproductive........and more expensive for the client than just replacing it.
A friend of mine had one of those old heating elements designed specifically for removing old glazing. Picked it up in like-new condition at a garage sale. Worked slick and decently fast. He moved years ago and took it with him. Dang it.
Will try your steam box approach in the future.......even if it means waiting a bit for the wood to dry down again before priming and painting. Sounds like it would be worth the wait.
Thanks, but it's not "my" approach - John Leeke, who operates the Historic Homeworks site, innovated this technique, and I learned it from him.
Lots of good info over there, BTW - including steam info and some videos.
http://www.historichomeworks.com
I have heard, but not actually tried, that Sherwin-Williams is making a glazing putty called '66'. It is supposed to have a longer life than the DAP '33'.
I'm testing replacing the putty with a very small moulding installed with teeny nails, caulked, primed and painted.
One window in full sun.
I'll let ya know in 30 years how it works. ;)Troy Sprout
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should also have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington
I'll let ya know in 30 years how it works. ;)
I'm not sure if you know this already, but glazing stops have been successfully used for at least a hundred years. Most of the 80-100 year old commercial sash I see was built 1-3/4" thick and glazed with stops.
Putting stops on a 1-3/8" sash means they'll be a bit smaller, but other than that I don't see any reason why you shouldn't get great results with them.
I did NOT know that!
Dang, now I have to suspend the test.
Thank you for the information. It makes my decision "feel" better.
Troy Sprout
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should also have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." -- George Washington
Back in the day when I was a glazier, I pissed the boss off, and he gave me a job working an old warehouse downtown reglazing steel sash. I really didn't mind it that bad. Ate at the cheap diner with the local lowlifes, and cops.
What you describe so well is what I've been doing for the 300-year-old house...
Do they want their work to last, or is it just window dressing?