Hello everyone,
We have a rotten rim joist under our back exterior door, caused by leak on the door threshold. We have a crawl space and there is a free standing deck right in front of this specific rim joist that needs to be replaced. Part of the subfloor is also rotten because of this leak. There is also a rotten post under the front porch that needs to be replaced. We have had 3 contractors came to give us estimate. Each have their own approach on fixing this. I would really aplreciate it if you can give us advice on this.
Additional information, our deck apparently is not according to codes, some people suspect it was a diy project done by previous owner and 2 of the contractors are very concerns that deck will collapse. Deck passed home inspection when bought house 8 yrs ago though, but again I think we had terrible inspector, who missed so many things during inspection.
First contractor wants to remove the deck, so he can replace rim joist from outside. Also replace post and footing under front porch. Replace door, jamb, threshold and put in kick board and flashing, and replace rotten section of subfloor. His estimate is $3500.
Second contractor wont remove deck, but he also wont replace old rotten rim board. He just wants to put in new sections of rim joist behind the old rim joist from crawl space. He will also replace the whole door unit and subfloor. His estimate is between $2000-3000.
Third contractor said he can remove old rim joist and put in new one without removing the deck. There is only about 1/8 inch of space between house siding and deck. So at first it didnt seem to make sense to me. How would he be able to nail the rim joist to the joist if he doesnt have enough space to drive nail in from outside? When I asked him about that he said he will nail from outside where he can, and use screw and toenail from inside in locations where he doesnt have access from outside. The rim joist is wider than the thickness of the deck, so he probably can nail the bottom part of rim joist to joists from outside. he will also replace door unit, subfloor and front porch post and footing. His estimate is around $2600.
Right now we are leaning toward this third contractor, mostly because of the budget, and that he has a better plan than the second contractor. First contractor plan sounds good, but price is higher. But we do have concern about his way of attaching/nailing the new rim joist to the joists. We do not know if toenailing rim joist to joists is a good idea and a valid correct techniques that is also following building codes. So any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much !
Replies
Since you posted this same question/scenario to Construction Techniques and General Discussion you obviously are taking a scatter-shot approach to dealing with your contractors and this forum. From a contractor's point of view, that is suspect. If your approach is suspect, then you should expect nothing otherwise in your negotiations with contractual candidates for your job. There is no need to give specific costs here because it is irrelevant. Nobody here has visited your site and considered all that relevant site conditions that would go into a reasonable estimate. You apparently want to use this free forum as means for doing your own due diligence for contract negotation. Not gonna happen because that is not a responsiblity that you can abdicate to anyone for free. YOu might think you're getting it here from some knee jerkers, but trust me, you'll only be getting smoke and mirrors.
Your inquiry belongs in General Disscusion and my advice here is simple (and redundant based on another poster in Constr. Tech.): Do your due diligence in soliciting qualified contractor(s) to review your job and hire a contractor who gives you adice you feel you can trust--before hiring one that sells you price. You obviously don't trust any of the first 3.you have consulted with. Remember, if you can't be trusted to present your priorities truly, then expect the reciprical.
Tip: If you're leaning toward one or the other based price, then you have your priorities twisted. You already stated that valid and correct techniques and following building code are of issue to you. That does not usually jive with the lowest bid. IMO cost should be low on the priority list of considerations for a job of this nature; particularly given the mariginal spread you found in your first 3 estimates.
Thank you so much for your tips, Sir! But I think you misunderstood my intent. First of all, this whole thing is not about negotiating a contract. I posted this question in techniques forum because we are trying to find out which techniques offered by the contractors is the correct way of fixing this problem. We do not know much about the technical aspect of it, therefore we would like to hear from people who know more about this. For example, we do not know if toe nailing joist to rim joist is an acceptable/correct way of installing replacement rim joist. Thought someone here might be able to suggest a book or point out building codes on the do's and dont's of attaching joist to rim joist. I just thought I post the same question here in case there are more people online in the general discussion forum. We have checked each contractor's reviews, and just like most, they have some very good reviews and some not so good ones. The first contractor plan sounds solid, but cost significantly more than the third from our point of view. I am happy for you that you can consider $1k to be marginal. But that is big expense for us. If the third contractor's plan to toenail joist to rim joist turns out to be technically correct and acceptable we prefer not to spend that extra 1k. That being said, if that is not technically correct and only cause problem in the future then of course we will go with the first. Technically correct or not technically correct...that is all that we want to find out. But thank you for your time to respond to my question.
tecnhniques, smecniques
If you had to hire a heart surgeon to perform triple bypass surgery, wouild you be interested (or even capable) of undertanding the "technical aspects" of the operation. Your job is not heart surgery, but the same professional selection approach applies.
BTW, if you want a book, than start by reviewing the International Residential Code online. If you're so intersted in the technical aspects, then why didn't you study that document before your scatter shot inquiry here? If you did, you probably wouldn't be inquiring about "toe nailing" into band boards.
Also, you may want to be aware that necessassary and ordinary repairs are usually exempt from the permit process and not laid out in any code manual. So, essentially, there are a myriad of ways to solve your construction dilemma irrespective of one way being "right" and the other being "wrong" according to the code book or anyone's opinion. IMO, your wasting your time looking for it here. You'll find your solution with a local professional contractor. If you can't afford one then, in my opinion, you shouldn't own a home. I'd advise you rent from someone that is capable of handling that responsibility.
Thank you so much for sharing your financial wisdom with us, Sir. Much appreciated!
Of course, if we can't afford to hire a contractor we will definitely relinquish ownership of the home and rent from someone who can handle that responsibility. We will definitely keep your wise financial advice in mind.
And you'd be right, I never read nor heard about International Residential Code . And that is why I come to this forum to learn from others who know more than me. If I already know, then I would not need to ask. And as you see, you and some other people have nicely and sincerely guided me toward the right direction. I will definitely check out the book that you mentioned. You see, if I never came to this forum and ask, I would have never known the book existed.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with your analogy about hiring a heart surgeon to perform heart surgery.
First of all people do not come to surgeon and say, I want to hire you because I need heart surgery. So it is definitely not comparable with me coming to see a contractor and say I need to hire you to replace rim joist. People come to see a doctor first because they have symptoms. From then, doctor make a disgnosis based on symptoms. The diagnosis might be correct or it might not be, hence the need of second opinion. Even after there is correct diagnosis, different doctor might prescribed different things to fix the problem, it can be surgery, medicine or life style change. Much like doctors, each contractor can offer different approach on how to fix a problem, as you mentioned yourself, there is more than one way to fix my problem. So that is a much better analogy IMO. It is up to the patient or customer to make an INFORMED decision on which route to take, which approach to take. How can they make an informed decision? By educating themselves. Researching, asking questions, and gathering information especially from people who have been through the same thing before. I am glad that my experiences with our doctors have been geat. They believe in importance of patient education and open to any questions and did not get incensed, belittle nor deem their patients to be incapable of understanding the technics they use, if it is explained in plain simple language of course.
Luckily, most in healthcare business have the same opinion, hence we see a lot of brochures of explanation of different type of medical procedures provided to the patient. Patient advocates even suggest us to ask about the technic used to sterilized dental & surgical equipment before deciding on choosing a clinic or hospital. So, I do not see anything wrong in wanting to know more about the technical aspect of things to help deciding on what is the best approach, or whom to hire to fix a problem, be it a doctor, surgeon, or contractor.
I am not one who would just follow blindly. Some might not like that, but that is ok. I ask a lot of questions because I want to learn. I believe this saying "Not to know is bad, not to wish to know is worse." And if people deem that I am incapable of learning or understanding, that is ok too :) People are entitled to have their own opinion.
~More the knowledge lesser the Ego, lesser the knowledge more the ego. (Albert Einstein)~
~Those that know, do. Those that understand, teach. (Aristotle)~
I agree. There's no such thing as asking a stupid question. However, I believe it would be more productive to address them towards the contractors you were considering hiring instead of second guessing them in this forum. After all, they're the ones that would potentially be doing the work and theoretically could have provided you a more direct (and site specific) response.. Let me guess, stage fright was an issue and you're only comfortable dealing with anonymity?
BTW Einstein, you're the one that referenced the "building code" in your original post. Kind of hard to argue that you never knew a book existed which actually defines the residential building code; particarly when you're so concerned about someone following it. I think Aristotle just rolled over in his grave learning he was associated with that hypothesis.
Best of luck with your project.
Based on the scant information and the lack of photos, it is difficult to give advice. I can't say anything about the cost.
The rim joist needs to be replaced and there is, potentially, a deck blocking access. The first question I have is this: are the house floor joists running parallel to the rim joist? If they are, is there sufficient room to replace the rim joists from within the crawl space? If access from the crawlspace is limited, can enough free-standing deck be removed to do the work from outside? Doing the job from the outside appears to be the best way to go. If floor joists run parallel to the rim, consider the use of support block before removing the rim. These will support the wall and other loads above them. These blocks are knocked out and fall into the crawl space as the new rim is pounded into place from outside.
Suppose the floor joists are at 90 degrees to the damaged rim. In this scenario, the wall and other loads bear upon the floor joists and no temp. blocking is needed. The first, and best choice, is to cut away the damaged rim from the outside and replace it with a continuous piece of new rim. The second choice, not as good, is to sister rim material against the damaged rim joist from the crawl space side. It is important that the replacement material rests upon the mud sill. This means cutting blocks of rim material and wedging them between the floor joists. Now you have sufficient support for subfloor repair. Further blocking can be done as needed.
Be sure to take out the door and, after repairing the subbloor, do a thorough water proofing job with sealant tape or with metal flashing...or a combination of both. And, by golly, be sure to caulk before setting the door back in place. I hear of many compaints about poorly manufactured exterior doors when, in fact, the reason for leakage most often results from imporper door installation.
There is a BIG difference between a free-standing deck and one attached to the house. The Code is very specific about how each must be constructed relative to the house. I'm not talking about hand rail height or that kind of thing. I am talking about stuctural components, sheer forces, "racking" and other factors. Without further details I can't say more, but be aware that the deck may fail to meet fairly recent and much more strict code standards.
In sum, you are dealing with something more complicated than merely replacing damaged rim board material. Have your contractor spell out in great detail exactly what he/she proposes to do. If that person can't do this, bye, bye...sigh. It is very important that contractors know how to clearly articulate the work they propose to do. I am constantly amazed at the lack of clear communication..sigh.
Mel www.froscarpentry.com
Thank you!
I forgot to mention, the joists run perpendicular to the rotten rim joist. The deck in front of it is free standing, but blocking access from outside. Two contractors want to replace rotten rim joist with new one. But one of them said that deck needs to be removed,hence cost more, while the other think he can replace without removing the deck. He said that if he can not nail the new rim joist to the joists from the outside (because of the deck blocking it) then he will screw and toenail the joist to new rim joist from inside the crawl space. Does that sounds like a good plan and a proper way of nailing rim joist to the joists? That, we do not know....therefore it is hard for us to make the decision of who to hire.
Thank you so very much for your detaild answer! I absolutely appreciate it and I leearned alot from it too!
Thank you!
I forgot to mention, the joists run perpendicular to the rotten rim joist. The deck in front of it is free standing, but blocking access from outside. Two contractors want to replace rotten rim joist with new one. But one of them said that deck needs to be removed,hence cost more, while the other think he can replace without removing the deck. He said that if he can not nail the new rim joist to the joists from the outside (because of the deck blocking it) then he will screw and toenail the joist to new rim joist from inside the crawl space. Does that sounds like a good plan and a proper way of nailing rim joist to the joists? That, we do not know....therefore it is hard for us to make the decision of who to hire.
Thank you so very much for your detaild answer! I absolutely appreciate it and I leearned alot from it too!
Since you mentioned about communication, Sir, I might add. The first contractor does seem to be better at articulating the job that he proposes to do. It is more detailed and itemized. Thank you so much for sharing your insight. It helps a lot in our decision making process. We will be hiring the 1st contractor. The third contractor has been in business longer. So at first it was hard for us to tell if the first contractor, with his less experience, overlooked a simpler solution, or it was the third contractor who was offering a "quick fix".
Thank you so much!
I think removing the deck is best. The rim joist should be flashed properly, which would be hard with the deck in place, you are not sure the deck is built correctly, and the finished job likely will look nicer.
With the deck removed the actual house repair will be faster and easier for the contractor, so for the extra money you spend, you will end up with more value in the end.
Also you may make some changes that will make your house more pleasing to you, by altering the design of the deck, or changing it in size, or removing it altogether.
The whole discussion here has been respectful. It is a good example of how we contractors can interact with homeowners without getting into tussles regarding who knows best. Thanks to all. Good job
Mel
I needed to reply after looking for information on replacing a rotted Rim joist. Now with that said the childish contractors on here pontificating from there soap box like a family member we have that is a contractor is insulting at least. For instance my family dumbtractor aka crook told me he would do my kichen over that should cost 100k he would do it for 60k now lets see I subed out jobs and wow 18k and change with a new electrical panel and water pipes upgrade water softner and new oil tank. So as for these so called contractors on here. I will see you in a recovery detox as the highest pecentage of drug addicts and drunks we see are in this field. For the Gentleman who asked his question me I price shop a fool and his money is soon parted why because like contractors and auto machanics which I am machanic by trade are crooks worse than used car sales men. These are facts not deductions.
If I were you I would call the person they hate the most on here the building code officer's in your town or city. They love seeing you and helping you get the job done correct. These guys cut corners anyway they can and dont care if they nick a wire in a wall and cause a fire. Talk to an electrician sometime they will tell you horror stories of moron money seeking contractors and people who lost there lifes. When I did my kitchen they made sure the pompus asses like on here did there job right. I signed up for this forum to get information instead I see self absorbed over self centered egotistical cry babies on here that probably measure once and cut. This is why youtube has the traffic it does for self repair. People are buying more older cars why because they hate crooks insults and you pay for my information so i will fix my house and car myself. As for the moderator letting these jackasses continue this behavior your part of the problem not the solution as people came here to get help and information not disinformation. This site will be blocked on my browser as i will not support self centered egotistical cry babies.
I wonder if joecaddy is aware that the previous post is four years old? Too bad he blocked this site, now we can't let him know.
Yes, too bad. Even tho deadnuts often had little finesse with his answers, discouraging the above goofball is worth it.
I think I'd go with the first guy. He'll actually be able to determine if there are other issues that need repair, which is likely to be cheaper now than if ignored.
I was glad to see Vv5 ask and I appreciated some of the answers but some that said hire an expert and your problems will be over were not much help. Finding one is a problem and in the pre virus days it was hard to get one to call you back, or worse theyd promise to call you next week and you heard no more.