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I have been around here for a long time, and a common problem that comes up is bathroom floor rot/replacement.
Right now, I am doing a small job that fits this bill to a "T". Becasue of this fact, I am going to keep a thread going, complete with descriptions and pics of the repair process. Maybe this will help a few people, maybe not. At least it will give a visual and description of a repair in progress.
The house is a rental property owned by my brother, and becasue it is a rental property, costs involved in the repairs are being kept at a minimum, with quality of structural repairs being foremost. Cosmetics is where the reduction in costs will come from. Bath is 5 x 7, so it is small.
The initial complaint was that the toilet was leaning, leaking, and had trouble flushing. First thing I found was the floor was spongy, the tub surround (laminated hardboard panels) had rotted out, and window sill had rotted. The toilet had the hold down bolts in place, but no nuts. The caps were in place, but no nuts!!! No wonder the toilet leaked, and leaned.
This first pic is of the damage I found after I removed the toilet. The waste pipe is lead, and the drain for the tub ties into the waste drain. In the tub drain pipe, right at the opening into the waste pipe, I found about 2' (that's FOOT, not inches)of a fishing pole end. Eyelets and all. Evidently, the renters had tried to unclog the tub drain at some point with a fishing pole, and lost the end of it. SIMPLY AMAZING some of the things I find.
Anyway, got the underlayment pulled up (1/4" hardboard) and the floor around the tub is rotted, and real wet. Shame too, cause it is 1" oak strip flooring, covered by the underlayment and rot. Tub has got to come out, as well as surround and vanity (to gain access to floor). I have a feeling I am gonna find some real rotten studs behind the suroound, and wet insulation. All of that will have to come out too. Will know more tomorrow.
Keep ya posted...
James DuHamel
*Another pic of rot found
*Here's the window sill. Why they ever put windows in shower areas I'll never know. Well, I do know, but don't like the idea.
*Here's one of the surround area.
*ooooh, I bought one of those too. I feel, smell and see your pain. Good luck, keep us posted. By the way, if things are soaked, kitty litter is a good way to speed up drying.
*Hi Ron,I assume you mean you bought a rent house with rotten floors?I usually use a very powerful fan with a heater built in to speed up drying, but this time EVERYTTHING wet is coming out, and getting replaced. Goal here is to "renter proof" the bathroom so that water damages in the future are limited to a minimum. I just finished a similar job on another of his rental properties, located 4 blocks from this one. It was a bit bigger though, and the entire outer walls were completely rotted out (including siding). It was a bugger of a job. Tunred out well though, and he was pleased as punch. We kept costs to a minimum on materials, and renter proofed the whole bathroom.Hey, it's a good paying job, even if it is small. James DuHamel
*This was a place that had been rented for 30+ years, but I bought it for myself. Tenants just don't need to care, do they?Fortunately, I found all of the booby traps and used them to negotiate a great price on a place I could fix with patience. In fact, I never could have afforded it without the headaches. The patience still contibues though. After five years I keep the wife happy by showing her the appraisal that claims a 50% increase in value while I putter with one room after another. And then there is location, location, location.Ahh to build and have an excuse!
*James, you have posted i exactlywhat I see all too often. Who, I mean WHO in their right mind wants a window in the shower area?? they always rot.The last one I did had a hole in front of the toilet that had a bit of cardboard taped over it. Always a bad sign. The surrounding floor was very spongy and discoloured as was a good sized bit up the wall.We were doing a complete Redo on the whole lot, so sailed in and tore out everthing. Turns out the shower,toilet and handbasin were leaking. I had to replace the entire floor as all the joists, bottom plate and sill plate of the wall, was totally, I mean utterly, stuffed. It was a days work, but had to be done. There is no option but to do the lot, otherwise it will continue to rot out more wood. With regard to pricing, well, best I can suggest is to factor in 'Uh OH' money so you dont get burned.
*Here's a question in keepin gwith this thread. Our house has plumbing rot and mold problems that put yours to shame. If you wanna see what is going on in the basement, you can look through the hole beside the tub, or the one next to the toilet where the floor has entirely disintegrated. This is a very old house and was a rental for the last 40 yrs before I got it. My theory is that the rot is not caused by splashing water etc. but by the fact that the bathroom is in an unheated, uninsulated portion of the house, and all the moisture gathering on the walls and floors doesn't ever leave the room. Rather it saturates the building materials till they fall apart. * Now the challenge... to ventilate the bathroom, you would have to go directly through the roof. The tub sits against the only exterior wall, and I'm not sure its feasible to put a vent through the roof. * Problem number 2 - the electrical service is innadequate to heat the room with electric (House has 30 amp service with knob and tube to bathroom), and the rest of the house is heated with gas space heaters (wall mounted, direct vented - can't be moved)How in the heck do I warm the room up to prevent condensation, and move the moisture out of there?? Or is there another cause of bathroom rot that I've overlooked??Max ceiling height is 7 ft at the pantry end of the bathroom sloping dwn to about 4 ft at teh door to the basement access. Cieling is plaster under 2X4's under Osb under shingles. All walls are plaster over 2X4's floor is 1 ft sq linoleum tiles over hardwood over 2X4's over crawlspace. I marked moldy areas on the jpeg with green and rot with brown.
*James, I think this thread is a good idea. Actually, I think you should take lots of pictures and see if Andy could use them in a future issue.
*James-What a mess, at least you have a nice toilet supply line shut-off valve (in your first jpeg), but, with your luck, it probably leaks! Good luck. Bob
*Hi Bob,The valve you see is actually one I had to install just to be able to turn off the water at the toilet. The one that was there not only leaked, but when turned completely off did not stop the water flow to the toilet. Because it is attached to 1/2" pvc supply line, it will get replaced along with the line itself. I really dislike pvc fittings that have threads on or in them. The threads usually wear out and leak sooner or later. I like using the 1/4 turn ball valves for toilets and vanity faucets. James DuHamel
*AJ,I hear ya buddy. I see this kind of problem a WHOLE lot. Compared to most rotten bathroom floors I do, this one isn't so bad. I usually get much worse. Of course, I haven't torn out the wall coverings yet either Actually, this particular bathroom (and the one I did for the same owner right before it) are T & M jobs. I will get paid for the work I actually perform instead of a blind bid. This works out best for me and the owner (my brother). When blind bidding, I bid in two stages. One strictly for tear out and inspection, and another bid for repairs. If and when I run into hidden damage (I ALWAYS find hidden damage inside walls and in floor joist areas) I stop dead in my tracks, issue a Add Work Order, and go from there. Before I get through with most bathrooms, I have written up two or three Add Work Orders, and wound up remodeling the entire bathroom. James DuHamel
*Ran into the same rotten subfloor issue myself. The subfloor had rotten completely around the flange. The toilet was attached to what is now a free floating flange. When I removed the subfloor the mystery had unraveled, this was the third time the problem had been addressed because I removed not one, not two, but three layers of subfloor. This subfloor sandwich was complete with two layers of VCT and one layer of sheet vinyl. Whoever attempted the first two repairs thought it was a good idea to cover the rotten subfloor with another layer, but just didn't want to remove the flange, so the cut the new subfloor to fit around the existing flange, as to not fix the problem. Not once but twice. Homeowner repairs still make for good stories.
*Hey James What did you do with te fish pole ? :)Great thread and thanks for taking the time to do this. I find it very interesting. Of course I find most of your post interesting.
*James - Great thread. My only request would be to back off a bit when you take the pictures so we have a better feel for what we're looking at. It's hard to tell if you were looking up, down, or sideways when you first look at them.
*I have never liked floor-flushing toilets for the reasons discussed above. The toilet is mounted only by the relatively thin flooring, and the sealing is left to "chance" and potential movement. This design is left over from the old dry hopper days and similar designs of the 1800's. It is a nightmare from a reliability standpoint.I have a wall-hung tank-flush toilet (it DON'T have a sloan valve!!!) in one bathroom that doesn't even touch the floor, allowing easy cleaning (and a place for the cat to sleep!!!) and easy floor installation. (Strengthening the wall studs to hold the toilet required some steel, but it was not difficult.)The other toilet sits on the floor, but still flushes out the back. I had to frame the wallout by an extra 3-1/2 inches to allow the DWV bend to fit, but I made it a "knee" wall, and we use the flat surface as a very handy storage area.In both these cases, the toilet is firmly mounted into something stable; the flange seal is right where it should be and doesn't move. Finally, you don't have to cut any floor joists to put in the waste pipe.
*We're addressing the same rot problem right now in our bathroom. Great timing on this thread. I'll be watching for more photos.
*Hey James,I've sen this too often. When I was in college, me and my buds always rented houses with this problem. We would remove the toilet, cleat the joist and lower the subfloor to below the rot line of the joist. then put the toilet back, usually about three or four inches lower than the surrounding floor. I could go into how this is a more natural "release" shall I say, having one's knees up in the air, but I won't go into that here.Tear it out and start over if you want a conventional USA bathroom.Put in an aluminum window with corian sill, apron and casing. That won't rot. (I did it at my house - circa 1950). I like the window in the shower.Good luck,Ed.
*Well, here is some more pics and descriptions for ya. I just got home a little while ago (about 10:30 pm here) after a very long day. Damage wasn't as bad as I thought.In the first pic, I have removed the hardboard surround, all the trim, and have found 2 1/4" x 3/4" tongue and groove boards attached to the inside of each wall in the bathroom. The entire home is built this way. BOTH sides of each and every wall have these tongue and groove boards. The problem here is that the bathtub was set BEFORE the tongue and groove boards were installed, so they have to come off in order to get the tub out. In some of the photos that you'll see, I have cut out the tongue and groove boards in sections. I am not going to replace the front and back sections, but I will be putting some back on the side wall, under the window area. I do not want to decrease the structural integrity of the exterior wall (with the window) any more than I have to, so the t & g boards will go back here. The front and back of the tub have these t 7 g boards on the OTHER side of the walls, so I will leave them off, and install greenboard here (as well as on side wall). First pic - shows window (minus all trim) and side/front wall.
*Next pic is of the shower head connection. As you can see, it is pvc. I REALLY do not like pvc for this connection. It makes it too limber to suit me. I will remove all of the tub/shower valves and pvc plumbing (above floor line) and go back with copper. As I do this, I will show you a few tricks I use to make it a bit easier, and to get water back into the house as soon as possible.
*This pic is of the tub/shower valve setup. I REALLY hate pvc connections like these. The valve is leaking profusely, so I will replace it all. The front wall (where the plumbing is) was installed AFTER the side wall (window wall). The side wall is the exterior wall of the home, and the entire wall was covered with the t & g boards before ANY interior walls were installed. ALL of the interior walls that connect to the exterior wall just butt it. Reminds me a lot of mobile home construction.
*Here's a full view of the tub and walls.
*The next pic is important. Please pay close attention here.I have removed some of the front and back t & g boards, but before I did, I CAREFULLY cut the bottom boards on both front and back of tub area. Then I took an inspection mirror and POWERFUL flashlight and looked up into the cubby holes where the recip saw blade would be cutting. I wanted to be absolutely sure no plumbing, and no electrical was located in the path of the blade. Once I determined that the cavities were empty, I proceeded to cut the boards. I used the edge of the paneling on each end as a guide. I also had safety glasses on (with side covers) and used a respirator. Whenver i cut into older walls like this, the dust and trash is thick and heavy. PROTECT YOUR EYES AND LUNGS!This pic shows some of the boards removed after I cut them, and shows the valves (plumbing) a bit better.
*This is a better view of the tub/shower valve setup. It's coming out.
*Now for the rotten floor boards.The floor turned out to be 1" wide oak flooring, installed on top of 6" t & g subfloor. The subfloor was installed at an angle. This makes for a VERY sturdy floor system.Water got trapped between the floor layers (under the tub) and caused some rot. The bottom of the drain on the tub was so rusted and pitted that it could no longer hold a seal. Every time the bath was used, water poured on the floor under the tub.
*This is the subfloor. It got pretty wet, and the joist under the drain is pretty rotten. It will get cut out, and new joist sistered in place. This pic also shows some of the lead plumbing that will be coming out.
*this is the drain area.
*Better pic of the drain set up.
*This is a pic of the drain line (2" iron pipe) that I will tie the new drain plumbing into. The rusted pipe in the pic (above ground) is the gas line. Very typical, and very common to see them in this kind of shape around here. One more reason I don't want gas at my house.
*This pic shows the window removed. I pulled the whole window, and am going to repair it in the shop. I will replace some rotten wood on the assembly, and seal it completely on the exterior side. It will be weatherproof. I will also install aluminum foil on the inside of the window panes so that you cannot see inside the glass. There is a reason for this.First part of the reason is that the interior wall is going to be completely enclosed. It will be covered with t & g boards, and greenboard. a new tub surround will be installed, and for all practical purposes, the window will not be there. It will be completely sealed on the inside. The foil is there so that no one can see (from the outside) that the window has been covered up. Second part of the reasoning and tactics used is the fact that by leaving the window and exterior trim in place, the house still has that symetrical and aesthetic look that several windows, all the same size, and evenly spaced give a home. If I were to remove the window and install exterior siding in the hole, the house would look funny.The foil is being used because the area that the home is located in is heavily populated by refinery shift workers. It is a very common site to see foil in the windows to block out sunlight, and make the room darker. This makes it a bit easier for shift workers to sleep during the day. By doing all of this, no one will ever know that the window has been incapacitated, and covered up on the inside. Everything will look normal on the outside of the house.Ok , so this pic DOESN'T show the window removed. The next one will.
*Sorry, that pic didn't come out. Trust me, the window is OUT.James DuHamel
*James, Great thread. I have done many of these. That is the most original lead drain set up I have ever seen. Most that I have dealt with have been butchered up over the years. I agree on the tub plumbing and learned it the hard way. I replumbed a rehab in plastic. Over the first few years a child pulled himself up with the tub spout, then it broke off. A year or so later one of the adults "adjusted" the shower head and it came off in their hand as the pipe broke below the elbow. We do all ours in copper now just for strength. I also box the toilet flange in using 2X6s perpendicular to the floor joist for added rigidity. Really helps with the occasional plus size tennant. (politically correct huh!) Our local plumbing supply house now has the quarter turn valves in a chrome valve that looks like the normal supply valve, real nice. I raise or take the windows out. Great stuff, thanks. DanT
*James:"Why they ever put windows in shower areas I'll never know. Well, I do know, but don't like the idea."Geez, you have the answer to one of the most perplexing questions of modern building practices in western civilization and won't share it? Whadda we have to do, bribe you? Is that soil right under the waste lines? If so, is that typical clearance?
*James:Great thread, thanks for taking the time.BTW: "Then I took an inspection mirror and POWERFUL flashlight "You don't mean that orange plastic nightlight sitting on the tub in the accompanying pic, do you?All due respect, among flashlight afficiandos, those don't qualify as a flashlight, much less as powerful:My current favorites, my UltraStinger (75,000 cp) and my new sports light, (3 1/2 million cp!!! It's heavier than a brick, though, so gets limited use in my line of work, although I'm using it more and more in crawl spaces.)BTW, mag lights are ok for cops, you can spread the beam and roll it into a dark room to flood the area, but that black hole in the middle makes it less than ideal if you have to look closely at anything.
*Bob,I'm drooling on your flashlights....uh... sorry about that.Mine is powerful enough to see very well in cubby holes with. I used the term POWERFUL to emphasize that you really need a light with some power behind it, especially when looking with a mirror. A small flashlight is not enough. Some day I'll get a more powerful light, but in the meantime, gotta use what I got.James DuHamel
*Hey Bob,I'll explain why windows were used so frequently in bathrooms for my area. Other areas of the country may have a different history, or they may be the same. I really don't know.Here, when the bathrooms were built many years ago, showers were not used. You had a tub, and only a tub. Showers were just not part of the scene. For ventilation purposes, windows were installed. It was no problem at all because the walls stayed dry. Water use for the tub was below the window line, so it stayed nice and dry. Then, when someone purchased the home later on (or maybe the old homeowner did it) they decided to install a shower. Problem was/is that a window was smack dab in the middle of the wall. Created a problem. Homeowners didn't care, or just didn't know that the interior of windows are not watertight. The windows rotted pretty fast. Once they rotted, the wall studs and floor got soaked and rotted too.Later on, especially around the 60's and early 70's, well after showers were now part of a normal bathroom, builders still used windows in bathrooms for ventilation purposes. Still a REAL BAD idea, but more habit than anything else. 80's came along, and now homes were getting a window in the bathroom, but not in the shower area. 90's arrived and they started to delete the bathroom window. Bathrooms in this time frame were starting to be centralized, and home floor plans were designed to keep as much plumbing as possible in a centralized area. Kitchens, bathrooms, water heaters, etc... were starting to be designed to share a common wall, or be as close as possible to each other. This reduced the length of the plumbing lines, and kept everything close together. New century is upon us, and who knows what they are gonna come up with next. I've seen some real screwy things go into new home designs lately, and it will be interesting to see how things work out over time.As for the soil under the waste line, are you talking about the 4" soil stack pipe, or the 2" iron pipe? The 2" line is normally BELOW the ground level. This one has just been washed out a bit. Yeah, that's typical clearance here. There is acutally about 18" to 20" clearance under the floor boards. I have been undr homes that had as little as 10". Had to dig out a bit just t be able to get under there to work.If it were up to me, I'd rip out all the old cast iron stuff, and replumb the entire thing. Being a rent house, it just ain't gonna happen. James DuHamel
*James,& I bet I could have a drool fest in your tool chest; we all get the tools we need for what we do.BTW, I meant to mention, The Ultra Stinger (made by Streamlight) runs about $110, with AC and DC rechargers. Many web sites carry it, I like Inspectortools.com (they've treated me well from the start with just a small purchase.) Galls carries them (I'm pretty sure) for you law and order types.The 3 1/2 dude was only about $45 at Target!!! With recharger! I wonder how long the switch will last (a problematic feature on this type of light.) In the meantime, it has a 12 v DC power supply, so I can power up my cell phone or other 12 volt device in the back of the crawl!
*James, send me your email address and I'll fwd maddog's letter. There's some info in there to your attention. Thanks.
*James,Info on fittings, if you don't already know.The all plastic adapters and drop ears such as shown in your pics are frowned upon, even though they are still used and sold at most places, and not allowed in our inspected jobs. We still find them used by the home owner and jack legs and will always replace them with the type as shown in the attachment.CPVC is very common for repairs, remodeling and new construction as well and for ease of installation is unsurpassed. PVC is not allowed, per code, within a structure, even though allowed as the initial conduit from the meter and should never be used for hot water. We usually spec a changeover from PVC to CPVC at the valve just outside the house. It keeps the inspectors real happy, too.This type of hybrid fitting, although sometimes as much as 5-10 times the price of straight CPVC fittings (depending upon the source and the urgency of need) gives you peace of mind knowing the home owner can crank down on the shower arm or whack the tub spout and not break anything and the tub/shower manifold connections won't leak either.
*I have an older home and will be needing to update two bathrooms as well. There are windows in both. I thought about filling them in but it occurred to me, what if someone was in one of these rooms and a fire broke out on the other side of the door? I would think that window would look pretty appealing at that time. Great thread.steve
*Steve, Something to think about might be to replace the bath window with a fibreglass casement if the egress size would be big enough. With a tile/marble/stimulated marble return to the fibreglass frame you could design in a waterproof seal and not have to worry about rotting out the framing. If egress or venting were not an issue, I have installed glass block units in much the same way. Done right, these type of installations have quite an appeal. Dbl hungs in fibreglass just doesn't look good, at least the brands I'm familiar with. Best of luck.....and don't forget, glass within the tub and here, within 3' of the edge, must be tempered or safety. Glass block has been passed by my area's inspectors w/o being tempered or safety. That might be up to interpretation. Best of luck.
*I have a window in my shower as well, but I'm also lucky. When they built it they used the same bricks for support columns as they did for the exterior walls. So if I ever want to eliminate the window I have matching brick already.
*James, how old is the house?Good pictures. What camera are you using?
*But Bob...a MagLight....mounted on the drivers side of a van engine doghouse.....makes for quite the "legal" anti-theft....or anti-what ever device! Everything has it's time and place! And the place for my Mag is right there within arms reach! The time is to be determined by the other dude! Jeff
*Here's some more pics and info...The first pic is the new treated joists I installed. I added a few for extra support under the tub area. Also added some strength to the area around the toilet stack.I sistered in a new joist beside the rotten one (one closest to the tub valves) and then cut off the rotten section of the old joist. I did it this way because the ground is extremely wet and muddy. If I tried to set a temp support in place, it would have sunk. So I improvised and did it this way. That is the thing about remodeling and repair work - no two jobs are the same. Lots of iprovising and propblem solving going on. Makes for an interesting career.
*Here is the subfloor I installed. This is NOT ordinary BC plywood. It is called BB Plyform, and it is saturated with oil (pressure treated at 95 psi). I LOVE this stuff for bathroom floors becasue it repels water like liquid off a duck's back. It is used a lot around here for truck bed liners. It lasts forever.The next layer of subfloor will be the same product. I have to make up two layers of 3/4" flooring. #30 felt paper will go between the layers. Under the tub area, there will be no underlayment or finished floor surface. Where the new vinyl flooring will be installed must have an underlayment of some kind. BB Plyform is not a good choice for underlayment in this situation. The oil interferes with the adhesion of the flooring adhesive.
*Here is the APA stamp for the BB Plyform. This stuff costs about $20.00 a sheet, so it is cheaper than CCA treated plywood.
*Here is where I had to tie into the 2" iron drain line. The old lead connection had the bathtub drain connected to the soil stack. Height restrictions nixed the use of a 4" T with a 2" reducer. The fitting was taller than the height available. So, I tied into the 2" drain line underneath for the tub.
*Here is the type of connection that I used for the soil stack. It is a rubber insert, and fits right into the cast iron pipe hub. The 4" waste line fits into the rubber connector. The connection is very tight, and requires use of liquid soap and the tap of a hammer to get it to seat. Once seated, it ain't going anywhere.
*Here is the same rubber connector inside the iron pipe hub. This is to let you see how it fits into the hub.
*This is a pic of the cut off valves that I installed for the tub/shower valve lines. I use these on ALL shower/tub valve replacements that I do. I do this becasue it allows me to quickly cut off the water to the house, remove the valve assembly, install the cut off valves on the lines, and get the water turned back on fast. This allows the homeowner to have water for the kitchen, and the toilets. Because these types of valves make for easy, fast connections, I leave them in place and install the new copper supply lines directly into them. I have never had one leak, not even a single drop of water in all the time I have been using them.
*This is a pic of the type of toilet and vanity/kitchen sink cut off valves that I love to use. It is a 1/4 turn ball valve.
*This is a pic of the pipe sealant that I use. I have had leaks before with teflon tape, but I have never had a leak when using this pipe thread sealant. Needless to say, I no longer use teflon tape.
*This pic is of a toilet flange that is worth it's weight in gold when ya need it. It fits INTO a cast iron pipe, or a lead stack pipe. It has a tapered threaded shaft, and a rubber seal. The rubber seal is also threaded. Whenever the flange is tightened (by hand) the rubber seal rides up the threads, and seals itself tight into the pipe. You cannot pull it out - it must be unthreaded to remove it. They make them for 4" and 3" pipes. They cost about $18, so they are a little pricy. When they are needed, they are worth every penny!
*Jmaes,I'm sure that you've seen what those blue terlit losenges can do to the rubber in the tank. The flapper valve, etc... What is going to happen to this rubber ring, in a few years if the renters are using those ?
*Ralph,I use a solid brass drop ear, and solder it onto a copper shower head supply line. I use copper on all valve lines and fittings. I may leave cpvc in place up to the cut off valves I install, but no cpvc goes above that point for me. I'll post some pics tomorrow of the stuff I use.Thanks for the info.James DuHamel
*Hi Ed,Nearest we can tell, the house was built in the late 40's or early 50's. Lady across the street has lived in her house since 1948, and she was the first house on the street. She doesn't remember exactly when this one was built, but said all of the houses were built and sold before 1955. It has been added on to and worked on since then. The camera I use is an el cheapo. It is an Olympus D-60, purchased at Office Max for $99. I love it. It is perfect for me. I had a better one (Kodak DC215) but I left it on the roof of my truck one day, and drove off. Haven't seen it since. Since I have an older computer, I do not have bus connectors, or any place to add a bus connection. I had to find another camera that still used the serial port connections. HARD TO DO! Found this one, and love it.James DuHamel
*Luka,The 4" drain line extends BELOW the rubber seal when fully seated. Unless you get a serious back up of liquids in the pipe, the blue stuff will most likely never touch the rubber. The parts in the tank are submersed for long periods of time in this corrosive stuff. The rubber seal will only see the blue liquid as it passes by. If it does rot it out, it will most likely take a long time. These connectors have been in use for MANY years, and I have never heard of one failing. There's always the first time though... sigh......James DuHamel
*James,Keeps getting better and better.Andy should be paying you for this!
*james,who manufactures the flange that you're using? can it be used on ABS drains, or is there a facsimile for ABS?do you have hard water in your area? is this the reason for use of pvc/cpvc?brian
*Brian,The flange in the pic is one that I am not gonna use on this particular job. If the lead stack was in good shape, I would have used this flange. It is made by Oatey. I do not know if they have something similar for a PVC pipe or not. You could probably contact Oatey and ask them. I have never seen them, but that doesn't mean that they ain't available somewhere. I will be using a standard PVC combo flange (it fits INSIDE a 4", or OUTSIDE a 3" waste line). I do install a lot of the threaded/rubber flanges though. Lots of cast iron pipe, and very little maneuvering room in old houses. And yes, we do have VERY hard water here. Oxidizes and corrodes brass and copper FAST. Heck on glass shower doors too. Cast iron is outlawed here (non code compliant) because of the high water table, and the high humidity. Cast iron does not last. In fact, we can't even buy cast iron drain fittings anymore here. I could order them online, or go to Houston, but my area doesn't use them, so no one sells them.PVC, or ABS is all that is allowed for soil and drain lines now. If it is IN ground, schedule 40 PVC is code. Above ground, ABS is allowed, but frowned upon by the Inspectors. James DuHamel
*Bob,Thanks. Andy already gave me a hat. I guess that was payment. Nice hat, though.James DuHamel
*Let's see a pic of the hat. On your head.
*Here ya go. Wrong hat, though. This is my brother (on the left). He's the one that owns the house I am working on. Some people are just photogenic. I ain't one of them...James DuHamel
*Didn't do a lot today. I just installed some wall studs, and started framing out a small platform for the tub. I'll go into more detail on the platform, and the reasons for it tomorrow night (after I finish it, and seal it all off).Notice the color of the studs. These are called Temple Purples. They are from a company called Temple-Inland. They are very unique in color, and the neat part about them is that the ends are dipped (soaked actually) in parafin. This prevents water from wicking up when the floor gets wet. They are also kiln dried, and straight as an arrow.More to come tomorrow night.James DuHamel
*Luka--a good question, and I think I might have a good answer.The blue things in the tank dissolve in high concentrations, and sit there for hours on end, attacking the rubber, plastic, and everything else.The output flanges are dry except when you flush. And, there is a lot of fresh water that comes into the tank as the bowl refills, so the flange is sort of rinsed by fresh water. Both of these combine to minimize the corrosivity of the chemicals. Finally, those chemicals react with the material that is the whole purpose of a toilet so the residual corrodant is reduced. [Doesn't your bucket have the same effect? ]
*James,I've never seen those purple studs before. How do they compare in cost? What do you know about availability? It sounds like a great idea...Andy
*Andy,The standard #2 8' 2 x 4 goes for $2.39 here. Everybody is very, very close in price because of stiff competition. The Temple Purples come in 92 5/8" pre-cut, 104 1/2" pre-cut, and standard 8'.The 92 5/8" pre-cut is $2.39, same as standard 8 footer #2. The 104 1/2" pre-cut is $2.99, and the standard 8' is $2.49. Cost is pretty close to standard studs.Lowes, Home Depot, and about 5 or 6 other REAL lumber yards carry them here. I do not know if they ship out of this area or not. Their corporation is a local one, and pretty big. Ya might check with Home Depot or Lowes to see if they can get them for you. If they say they can't, have them call the Beaumont, Texas store and ask how to get some to YOUR store. Ya never know...James DuHamel
*Here's some more pics. Had a pretty busy day today.The first pic shows a sort of "trough" I constructed. I built it for a reason. Remember that this bathroom is in a rental property, and the object is to try and "renter proof" the bathroom as much as possible. I built the trough by laying a double layer of 2 x 4's flat, then installing #30 felt in the trough area. It is a one piece deal, with the corners overlapped and sealed tight. The floor has a small slope toward the drain end, and I sealed the edges of the plywood subfloor there very carefully. If there is ever a water leak under the tub area, it will flow through the drain opening in the floor, and out onto the ground. Not a great thing, but much better than it flowing all over the bathroom floor, and causing damage. Since the tub has a styrofoam pad on the bottom, I had to construct a small platform for the tub to sit on, and keep it off the floor. It is made of treated 2 x 4's, and BB Plyform. It is immune to rot.James DuHamel
*Here's the platform in the trough.James DuHamel
*Here's a pic of the shower valve assembly.
*And dadgummit, here's the window hole covered with BB Plyform. It is the ONLY pic of the window part of the project that has come out.
*Here's a pic of the tub in place. The small boards on the edges are there to hold the tub in place, and level. The renters (family of 5) must use the tub like it is. I braced it a bit until I can get the wall coverings in tomorrow. VERY UNORTHODOX, but necessary.
*This pic shows the #30 felt that I layed on the floor. It goes between the two layers of subfloor, and the underlayment.The use of felt between the underlayment and subfloor here is very common. The house is on beam and piers, and the crawlspace below is open. This allows VERY humid air to circulate. The felt is to help protect the bottom of the underlayment from moisture laiden air infiltration.
*Here is a pic of the underlayment installed. Notice that it is Hardi Tile Backer (1/4" thick). I have never used this product for an underlayment for vinyl flooring, but the owner was wanting to try it out. I contacted James Hardi Corp. about using it this way, and they said "Go for it". They said that it is commonly used for this type of application. We'll see how it turns out. I may be pulling the underlayment and installing something else if it doesn't work right. I figure I'll at least try it.
*I thought since we are on the subject I would post a question. But if you rather I start another thread let me know.I noticed you cut out an access to the water lines from the other room and I've read many articles that suggest that. I was wondering what could be done if there was a shower on the other side, say with tile or panel? Has anyone built an access in a finished wall like that? Keep the info coming James!steve
*This is one of the most informative and practical thread EVER.We have, between our house and the one we just bought next door, three main floor baths and three lower level baths. Two main floor baths will be completely redone.Next door house will be a (family) rental, so this thread is perfectly timed.I love the term "renter proof".Thank-you for sharing this.Alan
*Steve,This is as good a place as any for your question. A good question, too.Personally, I would never locate two showers back to back, just for the reason you see. There is no way to access the plumbing without tearing one of the showers out. If I had two showers back to back, I'd have the shower valves on opposite ends, and have access to the plumbing.The access panel you see in the pictures was already in place. If it had not been, I would have made one. I would check to see if there was some way to gain access from below. Probably not, but worth a look anyway. The MAIN reason I find access panels a necessity is the fact that I have repaired many leaking shower valve set ups, simply by tightening the nut on the supply to valve body connection. Without the access panels in place, the only way to make this simple repair is to tear out a wall, and then redo it. VERY expensive, especially when compared to opening up an access panel, and having instant access. James DuHamel
*Alan,I'm glad someone is getting something out of this thread. That was the intention when I started it.ThanksJames DuHamel
*MORE!This is a pic of how I treat the walls and corners of the tub area with #30 felt paper. The idea is to get the corners reionforced, and to direct any water that gets by the surround and the drywall back into the tub, instead of down the wall cavity.I first install a strip of felt on each corner (front and rear of tub area). I then install felt on front, side, and rear walls. The corners, and bottom row of each of the walls has the felt overlapping the lip on the tub. This way, when water gets past the first two barriers (surround and drywall) it has nowhere to go except back into the tub. The ideal situation is that the surround and drywall will be sealed well enough that no water gets behind them in the first place, but reality is that sometimes it does. The trick is to start at the framing, and waterproof each successive layer of materials applied to the wall. This makes water leaks into the wall cavity less likely, and less destructive if unnoticed for a while.
*Another view (back corner)
*Another view (front of tub)To reinforce this front corner, I overlapped the front pieces around the corner. This corner gets the most water, and I felt like a double layer in the corner would beef it up a bit.
*Another view (back of tub)
*One more view of the felt (whole tub area)I only worry about running the felt a bit higher than the shower head. Water damage from the shower ABOVE that area is highly unlikely, even for a bad renter.
*Here is some water resistant drywall installed on the back wall. I use a small piece of 1/4" plywood to shim the drywall up away from the tub edge. I apply a clear sealant under the drywall edge, and fill the small void. This seals off the drywall and prevents water damage. It will get sealed again when the surround is installed.
*Here's a view of the drywall on the side wall.
*Here's a pic of the front wall after the shims have been installed.I installed the shims on each stud of the tub area, and just outside of it. The goal here was to shim the studs out ernough to make the new drywall flush with the old paneling still installed on part of the bathroom wall. The 1/8" paneling was installed over a 3/4" T & G wall, so I had to use 3/8" plywood shims, plus the 1/2" drywall to get the 7/8" thickness necessary to come out flush. I will install a small piece of flat trim on each seam (between drywall and paneling)
*Here is a pic of the drywall installed on side and back walls of tub area. Notice the tight fit between the two walls (in the corners). This seam is gonna get sealed with a clear sealant instead of taped and floated. The reason is two fold - 1. because I need to make sure the corner seam is watertight, and - 2. the tub surround will be covering the seam anyway, so it won't show. Cuts down on time, labor, and cost (if hiring it out instead of doing it yourself) Once it is finished, you will never know that it wasn't taped and floated.Amd a small piece of drywall will get installed in the void you see. I had not installed it when I took the pic.
*steve,i work on apartment complexes where shower stalls are located back to back. cut a hole for inspection purposes on the opposite side of the lateral wall for one of the tubs (was the back wall of a closet). does provide limited access to the plumbing, but not very practical. if your showers are located on second floor, it's preferable to set up access panel(s) underneath. they're available at HD.if only more guys would install the @#*! panels instead of rerocking! brian
*James,your brother is quite fortunate to have your assistance and skills. Your work appears to be meticulous and not the type designed for return calls. I appreciate the time taken for your postings and photos. I've learned more here than I ever thought I wanted to know. I just hope the knowledge does not become "necessary" knowledge with similar problems.About the window over the tub. I once did a similar thing to what you did when I installed a shower in a bathtub of a '38 house. Except that I left a curtain in the window that was covered up by the shower surround. I also had a bathroom vent installed to take care of the added moisture. It looked fine from the outside and the bathroom was far more functional with a shower. I even did some floor underlayment patching, but I would be embarassed to tell you what that looked like when I was done. It worked fine and was fortunately hidden by the new vinyl floor.Thanks for all of your efforts to educate the rest of us.BJ
*BJ,Thanks. I appreciate the thoughts and the kind words.James DuHamel
*James, Thanks for taking the time to share this info. As I said earlier I have done a number of these myself and yet have learned 4 or 5 new ideas. Great work. Should last decades. DanT
*James,Thanks for this thread. Very interesting and the detailed comentary is very informative. I've learned a lot. I hope you don't mind if I ask a couple of dumb questions.Why did you not put a plastic vapor barrier under the house or at least under the opening you made to fix this mess? It sounds like you have very wet soils - doesn't that pose a rot problem for the whole house?And why did you use greenboard instead of something like Durock for the shower walls?For the purple studs - is the purple color something functional and couldn't one do this treatment oneself if you couldn't find this product locally? Seems pretty easy to melt a bucket of parafin and dip the ends of studs into it. Of course finding really straight studs is another matter.ThanksMary
*Mary,i Why did you not put a plastic vapor barrier under the house or at least under the opening you made to fix this mess? It sounds like you have very wet soils - doesn't that pose a rot problem for the whole house? The soil is really pretty dry, and the house is open all the way around. The wet condition under the bathroom area was due to the bathtub and toilet leaking for a LONG time. It will dry out, and has already done so quite a bit just from the lack of water running on the ground. There really is not a need for a plastic barrier. The underside of the rest of the house is still good, and has been open like that since the late 40's/early 50's. The rotten joist I sistered was in the direct path of water, and has been getting wet and soaked for a long time. This is what caused the rot to the framing. Also, I used water resistant drywall because this will be a finished wall outside of the vinyl tub surround. No tile will be installed. The area above the surround, and just outside the tub will be open, and finished. You cannot get this finished look with a cement board. Well, you can, but the effort and materials necessary to do so is cost prohibitive on this project. If sealed and finished correctly, water resistant drywall will last a very long time. As for the purple studs, I guess you could soak the ends in parafin yourself. With them available, I would not take the time or effort to do it, but when the product isn't available, why not try it yourself!James DuHamel
*Danial,Thanks. Glad you got some new ideas to use. That's what these forums are great for - sharing and learning new things and new concepts.James DuHamel
*Thanks. I figured you had a reason, but didn't know what it was.Mary
*Unless Taunton bumps this thread back to the top, this will probably be the last posts. It will soon be in the archives, and a read only file.Anyway, here is some more pics and info:First pic is of the tub surround after it has been installed. It is a three piece Triton surround. I hate these things with a passion, but it is what the client ordered. Once the surround is in place, I seal the bottom edges with Lexell White sealant. This is the third layer of sealant that is in place to prevent water penetration into the wall cavity. These surrounds are a breeze to install. Took less than 30 minutes to install the entire thing, cutouts and all.
*The next pic shows the corners of the drywall in the shower area (before the tub surround is installed). These corners have been sealed with Lexell Super Clear sealant. The sealant is the second layer of protection against water infiltration into the wall cavities.
*The next pic is of the vinyl flooring getting installed.The first thing I do is to make a pattern of the perimeter of the floor with some cardboard. Once I have the pattern just like I want it, I use it to lay out the vinyl. I cut the vinyl, then dry fit it to make sure it is a good fit.I make absolutely sure the floor is swept, swept again, and then vacuumed. Then I take a damp (not wet) cloth and wipe the underlayment down. I then install the vinyl on the floor. Next I pull back half of the vinyl and apply flooring adhesive to the underlayment. Follow the directions of the adhesive when applying. I use Armstrong adhesive, and it must set up for about 20 minutes before the vinyl is laid back down. Once down, I raise the other half and repeat the process. I use a 1/8" notched trowel to apply the adhesive (as per manufacturer's recommendation). Use whatever sized notch is recommended for the adhesive you use.Once down, I use my hand to smooth out the floor, and make sure it is laying flat. Then I use a rolling pin (just like momma's) and roll out from the center to the edges. I keep rolling until I no longer have any air bubbles, or bumps of adhesive. The floor is now flat and smooth, and your arms and hands are cramped and tired .I use lighter fluid (naptha) to clean up the floor of any adhesive residue, and wipe it down with a clean rag. I then take a damp rag and wipe the floor down again.
*Here's a pic of the floor glued down and ready for the toilet, vanity, and trim
*Here is the toilet and vanity installed.
*On the front and back wall, where I installed the new drywall, there are a couple of seams on each wall that must be taped and floated. Here is a pic of the front wall seams after they have been taped. Back looks the same, so I'll skip that pic.Tomorrow I will float the seams, and then texture the partial walls. I will use a stomp and drag technique to match the ceiling in this particular bathroom.
*What is the appeal for texturing walls and ceilings? To me, they just catch dust more (Ahchoo!) are more work to do initially and are a devil to paint and clean.Mary
*Mary,It's a regional thing, I guess. Here, smooth walls are very, very uncommon. People just don't like them. The only time I do smooth walls is in preparation for wall paper. We do lots of different texture techniques, and pop corn type spray ons ain't one of them. I hate that stuff!!! Orange peel knock downs are pretty common too, but I personally think they are ugly. The most common texture here is a stomp and drag technique. It is easy to do, takes very little time, and if it ever needs to be repaired and patched the texture is easy to copy and blend in the repair so that you never know it is there. James DuHamel
*I found out an interesting thing about rot while demoing one of my old bathroom walls. The bottom end of the 2x3 studs were rotted and broke apart from around the nails, yet the 76 year old nails were still shiny, not rusted. It looks like the dry rot organism can live on a very small amount of water and still do a lot of damage. Perhaps that's why they call it dry rot.-- J.S.
*James, if the tub surround is so easy to install, and reasonably watertight when you're finished, why do you not like it? Also, seems to me that the 'client' is your brother...can't you convince him to do things your way? Looks like the end walls overhang the sides of the tub. Are they too wide?
*Ed,They really aren't as bad as they seem, but I just don't like anything in the shower area that has that many seams, and is that flimsy. Normally, we use cultured marble panels in bath/tub surrounds. They cost about $400 to $500 depending on thickness and color. This particular surround cost $147 I especially hate these types of surrounds because of the false feeling of them being secured well to the wall. They are glued pieces of vinyl, about 1/8" thick. How strong can they be? Notice in the pic that there is a clear bar in the middle of the side wall section. This is for hanging washrags, etc... What ya want to bet that somewhere along the way, some renter sitting in the tub will grab that sucker to pull themselves out of the tub. When they do, the side panel is gonna come off the wall. At the very least, the bar is gonna come flying out of the holes and break the vinyl in the process. I have also seen the shelves on some of these things collapse. And yes, the front and back panels are a bit wider than the tub. Because of this, they hang over. Normally wouldn't be a problem, but on this particular model, the instructions state very clearly that NO CUTTING OR TRIMMING of end panels is allowed. The way they are designed, they will be ruined if you cut off any of the length or width. So, we have some ears sticking out. Did I mention that I really do not like these types of surrounds? As for my brother letting me do things my way, that isn't a reality as much as I'd like it to be. As I stated early in the post, this is a rental property, and cost is a BIG factor. The main concern was replacing the rotten/damaged floor and framing, and then the bulk of the money was to make the structure waterproof (as best as possible), and sound. The cost cutting was gonna be in the cosmetics, of which the vinyl surround is part of. So was the $82 steel tub. The vinyl flooring cost a whopping $16.99 for a 6' x 9' piece. The bathroom is only 5' x 7', so he kept the remnant of the vinyl and will use it somewhere else. About every 6 months or so, he has to go into his rental units and do some cosmetic makeovers. That is the main reason why he uses cheap materials for wall covering, surrounds, floor coverings, etc... Renters, on average, destroy these things with no mercy. Pets that are not supposed to be in the house in the first place do the most damage to carpets. To combat this, he uses vinyl flooring in most rooms. Security deposits only cover part of the damage, so he resorted to using cheaper materials. This way, the damage deposits cover a greater portion. Me? I'd find better renters. James DuHamel
*James, unfortunately, renters do not come prelabeled. Rented to this nice, sedate young lady who, when I was 600 miles away, allowed her ex-husband and two daughters with boyfriends and dog to move into my three bedroom. They punched holes in all the doors, etc. I have been told that there is no way to get more than about 5 years out of a carpet in a rental and that most renters just wear out a house faster than owners.Even though it isn't in this remodel, I am interested in how you attach the cultured marble do you rest it on the tub or put in temporary spacers to raise it up a little and which are removed when the marble is attached? What do you use for attaching the marble. How do you hold the stuff in place while the adhesive sets? - I assume you have to concoct a frame of some sort. About your passionate purple studs - I assume the color is strictly for market purposes as it appeared that in one of the pictures you shaved some surface from a stud and didn't recoat with a purple paint. I assume that now days anyone anticipating an area that might leak uses pressure treated or the special plywood you used. I have always wondered why people don't slop a little paint on areas that may see some occasional water dripping down from condensation or whatever. Is there a reason that I have never seen paint or sealer on studs in areas, like under the water risers, that might some day be subject to a leak? Thanks, Casey
*James,A nice thread. Thank-you for the effort. I am confused about why the tub had to be put on a platform. Thanks.Rich Beckman
*Casey,When we install cultured marble panels, we install them using a small spacer. The spacer sits on top of the tub lip, and the panel sits on top of that. Once the panel ashesive has dried/cured, we remove the spacers and seal the gap between the bottom of the panel and the top of the tub.And yes, in most cases we must add some type of temp bracing to hold the panels in place. One thing that I use is a spring loaded shower curtain rod. Put it between the front and rear panels, and it will hold them both up. Sometimes I even use a couple of 2 x 4's with a pad taped to the ends to protect the finish on the marble surround. Just cut them a tad bit longer than the distance between the panels, and TAP them into place. Do not pound them in place. A small tap is all that is needed. The two front panels hold the side wall panel in place. Once the adhesive has set up, there is no problem.For adhesives, I use one of four products, depending on the surround configuration, size of the panles, and the substrate they are attached to. I use Bondo, vinyl panel adhesive, thinset mortar, or Lexell Super Clear sealant. The bondo works the fastest, and needs no supports. It sets up in about 1 to 2 minutes, and after that, the panel is solidly in place. It is expensive to use, stinks to high heaven, and messy. But, it is fast. The vinyl panel adhesive and Lexell Super Clear sealant take a while to hold. These need a strong brace in pace until they do set up. The thinset I only use when a cement backer board is the substrate. It works just like setting tile. It requires a brace as well, and once it has set up, it is almost impossible to get the panels back off. And yes, the purple color is marketing thing. It is only on the surface of the stud. Good eye to catch the shaving of a few studs. Slapping a little paint offers very little security against a water leak. However, a PROPER priming and painting job would indeed offer some protection. The reason most people don't so things like that, or go to the extreme that I did on this particular floor repair is the time and cost factor. It takes a lot of time to do the littel details that make for a secure, water tight repair. Most people get in a hurry, and just want to get the repairs done, and get out of the bathroom. This is true for Contractors and homeowners alike.Good questions. I enjoyed them.James DuHamel
*Rich,There was more than one reason why the platform came to be.Since this is a rental, and periodic inspections of the sealants and surround is not likely, the whole project had to be renter proofed, and protected as much as possible. One of the ways to accomplish this was to build a small trench, or trough under the tub area. This way, if water DID manage to get under the tub area via a leak, then the water would be routed away from the under tub area, and back out onto the ground. This would offer some protection for the structure by getting the water away from it instead of the water just sitting there on the floor.Also, in order to have a clear view under the tub (through the access panel) to periodically look and inspect the trough area, there had to be a high enough clearance so that you could see under the tub, and all the way to the back of the trough. Since this particular tub had a lot of metal web bracing underneath, as well as a styrofoam block mounted to the bottom of the tub, I had to install a raised platform for the tub to sit on, and to keep the view all the way to the back clear. The platform is small, and you can see underneath it with no problem. Now, once a month or so, someone can look underneath the tub area (via the access panel) and see if there is any water leaks visible. The trough framing also separates the floor of the bathroom into two sections. The first section is the area outside of the tub, and the second is the area under the tub. A leak in either section will not penetrate the other. This protects the floor a bit better when the kids or adults splash lots of water on the floor. The whole concept in THIS bathrroom was to protect the structure as much as possible from negligence and water damage. Cosmetic repairs are not a big concern, but structural repairs are. I simply repaired the problems and tried to incorporate ideas and solutions to prevent major damage in the future.James DuHamel
*James,Thanks. Very interesting. Looks good!Rich Beckman
*Well, I was supposed to go today and prime and paint the bathroom walls, and be done. BUT... last night and all day today we had a severe freeze. Yeah, I know... low 20's ain't nothing to you guys, but here it is a monumental thing. Well, anyway, I spent the day in the freezing cold, hard blowing wind, repairing broken plumbing.The hard freeze broke a cold water supply line (not any that I did work on), and left the renters without water. So I spent the day repairing the broken line, and getting them back some water.Next Saturday and Sunday I will actually get to finish the bathroom. I still have to texture, prime and paint the walls, install the rest of the trim, seal everything, repair the rotten window, and reinstall and seal the window.LONG weekend ahead.James DuHamel