I have begun work on my own house which I also designed. The budget is tight of course so I am searching for every way to save money (without sacrificing comfort and quality.) We have spent much time working on a small, simple, efficient design but as we move past framing I am looking to save at every turn.
I know this topic has been discussed but typically when there is a contractor-client relationship. Point being is that I dont mind spending time to save some cash by shopping on craigslist for example (that certainly wouldnt work if a client was paying me to build them a house.)Im sure there are many good ideas that I have not thought of.
I am tackling all the trades myself. Plumbing and electrical knowledge being my weak points.
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Edited 11/6/2009 1:12 am by jpeaton
Replies
Sticking to a plan & a schedule even when it hurts will be better in the end.
I do ridiculously large projects that go over budget on a regular basis.
#1 killer is architects & developers making changes in mid stream & not hitting deadlines on the schedule.
My missus and I GCed an owner/build a couple years ago. What I learned:
1) It's a full-time job. So if you have a regular job, it's gonna eat that, your spare time, and pretty much the rest of your life while you're working on the place. If you have kids, I hope they're older and fairly self-sufficient. Hell, put 'em to work if they're old enough to help. You'd be amazed at what a 6-year-old can do w/ a little bribery. : )
(Right before sod went in, I gave my two kids a bucket and offered them a nickel for each rock they could collect out of our 1/3-acre yard. Wound up costing me $25, but saved me a couple hours of bending and picking).
2) Yeah, you save money, but you basically "work off" the savings.
3) Knowing your limitations is key. You say you have weak spots in plumbing & electrical. If you can use personal/business connections to find a plumber/sparky who'll help out on the side, it will ease the work, cost less, and give you some assurance that your house won't flood, then burn down. Really, once you get rough-in done, you should be able to do most of the rest if you can read and follow directions. Books are your friend. So is this board.
3a) Know when to hire it out where skill is concerned. There are some things that can be done more efficiently and quickly by a professional.
3b) Knowing your limitations also goes for time. You might be able to do something, but it might make more sense to hire it out as an expedient. Roofing is a great example. (Saves yer back, too.) Insulation is a great example of being more efficient to hire for both time and money.
4. If you do decide to hire subs, get them chosen and lined up ASAP. You don't want to have to wait to get on someone's schedule at the last minute, or have a sub flake out on you the day they're supposed to show up. Get used to the idea that your job might not be their highest priority, either. We found our subs weren't necessarily as motivated to do our job because the builders that were their bread and butter came first.
4. As the job wears on, time is your worst enemy. You get bored, frustrated, burnt-out, etc. If you have a construction loan, that balance keeps climbing, and with it the interest payments. Not to mention the fatigue and stress of it all.
5) Make all your design decisions NOW, down to finishes. Carpet, paint, fixtures, everything. That was our biggest mistake - my wife's actually. She kept not wanting to look at stuff until she was "sure" we'd be completing the build. She also didn't want to order materials just for them to sit around till we needed them. I thought that was asking for trouble. Fortunately it never happened.
But...if you wind up with a wait to get materials, or fixtures, or whatever, your job can grind to a halt. This is bad.
6) Some small financial tips:
a) Keep all your receipts. We were able to take an enormous federal deduction for sales tax for the tax year we moved in.
b) Get an airline miles credit card and put everything on it for the build. (We used the American miles card.) Pay it off monthly via draw from your construction loan. You get free use of the money for a few weeks, and airline miles to boot. When you're done, cash in the miles and take a vacation. You'll need it.
c) If you haven't already, establish an account at your local lumberyard. We did, and got a 3% discount for payment within 30 days, plus free delivery. 3% of, say, $100,000 is a fair amount of cash. Your mileage may vary of course.
P.S. Need Lowe's coupons? I've might have a couple $25 off $250 that I could send your way. Home Depot will honor them too, generally. God knows I used tons of them when we were building - Lowe's clearance is awesome.
Jason,
That's an excellent synopsis of the process for a first time home builder.
Thanks for the tip about using an airline credit card. I plan on looking into that before my next large project.
You're right about needing a vacation at the end of major job. Recovery is a real issue, not just a humorous aside. We all should take more time between jobs, to reward ourselves and recovery.
Been there, done that. All really good advice.
BTW - here, if you go to the post office and ask for a "change of address packet" you get the forms for that but it also comes with some coupons including the Lowes. I've even used them for my "real job".
OP: One thing to add. Expect a bumpy road. That is what builders and project managers get paid for. Problems will come up. Mistakes will happen. Any problem is resolved with one of 2 items - time or money - usually both. Don't come crying here later with a home from hell tale.
One thing to add. A number of years ago a guy posted here saying that his drywall and been stocked in his house for 10 years and wanted to know if it was still good. Sorry, life is too short for that.
I'd say read JasonO's post again. Maybe even print it out and re-read it every 2 months.
I agree with HVC. Great list.
I just finished building my own house and we took advantage big time of the "airline miles" angle.
Did it slightly different as we got a Master Card through Home Depot and charged everything to the card. Really didn't buy a lot of building materials at HD but when I got the lumber package at 84 lumber for example, $20K got charged to the card. When I got the windows, $30K got charged to the card.
HD had a points system and it didn't take long to rack up a pile of points and stream of gift cards. When everything was said and done I got an 8500W generator, a Paslode hoseless 16GA finish nailer, a Rigid compound miter saw and about $1500 worth of everything from nails to splashblocks. All via gift cards.
To JPeaton: Yes, as Jason suggested, save ALL of your receipts. For the reason he gave of course but sooner or later you're going to be selling the house and all that stuff you bought will part of the "basis" for tax purposes. Big exclusions on the gains of course but the higher the "basis" the better. And the "hold records for three years" rule I wouldn't go by here. Save those receipts until three years AFTER you file the return that included the selling of the house.
We built our first house in '87 (we've built three over the years). Sold it in 2004 and had to figure the "basis" for our 2004 returns. Had all of the receipts but it was a job. Totally different from buying a finished house for X amount and all you've added is three azelea bushes over the years. And if you hold onto the house for a long time, you might well be over the exclusion limits. Trust me here.
Which brings me to my final point. For figuring the "basis", any labor you do doesn't figure into it. But if you hire sombody for a task, that does of course (I subbed most everyhting out). So if you're on the fence as to whether to hire or not hire for a part of the job, remember that.
The best of luck and keep us informed as to progress.
Runnerguy
Edited 11/6/2009 7:18 am ET by runnerguy
I agree with everything except for:
>>>She also didn't want to order materials just for them to sit around till we needed them.<<<When redoing our master bath, I had a jacuzzi bathtub sit in the corner for months. I had checked it out when it was delivered by opening the box and giving it a quick looksey. Unfortunatly I missed a corner crack that happened during shipping, and was covered by plastic protective tape.It was nearly a total loss on a $3500 bathtub. As it was, the manufacturer wasn't sure they could repair it... and I was on the hook for the repair costs. Thankfully they charged me only a minimal amount, and the repair has held.Lesson learned: Order your fixtures only when you are prepared to fully test them out, and can return the damaged pieces. Nexer sign a delivery slip until you are ready to say the delivery guys didn't break anything.
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Excellent post!
Thanks for the great advice in your post.
Lots of good stuff in there.
A few thoughts on your comments..."use personal/business connections to find a plumber/sparky who'll help out on the side,"Certainly helps to have those relationships. I already did some capentry on my plumbers house in trade and electrician told me to skip buying a book and he would walk me through it all and even order the materials for me!"Make all your design decisions NOW, down to finishes." Ha!, I am doing an absolutely terrible job of that. I am designing on the fly like crazy but am also well aware of the repercussions.
While I appreciate the concept, I think if we can be flexible with the finish details it could lead to some cost savings, …..a closeout fridge or an dirt cheap end cut of marmoleum for example. Will certainly cost more time with this approach though."It's a full-time job." So true! I have a couple guys to keep busy and a handful of paying jobs we are working on but I lay awake in the middle of the night planning rafter details on my house. Luckily I am still in the honeymoon phase of the project. Seems like the longterm key is to relax and enjoy the process…..or go crazy trying “to just finish it”!Thanks again!
Besides my skills as a carpenter, I'm a serious DIYer because I enjoy being self sufficient and saving money so I'm tuned into your desire to do it all yourself.
BUT, there are some things which will turn out much better if you hire a professional.
Concrete finishing is right up there on my list of things I don't do, even though I have many years of experience building forms and working with concrete. An experienced finisher and his helper are worth whatever the going rate is. So unless it's a small pour, like one or two yards, pay to have it done and work with them for free, just to learn first hand.
That's been my method of operation as a small contractor for about forty years. When I don't have the knowledge or the skills I hire a skilled tradesman to work for me, then I work along side him as his helper. Before I hire him I tell him that I'll be there to learn from him, asking questions and doing the grunt work. It's the best way to learn that I've ever encountered.
If you have skills in other areas that could be valuable to people in the trades you may be able to barter with them. Barter for retail value of both services. That way respect is maintained and both people win. No one pays income tax so both save a nice chunk.
I see you are 33 YO and live in OR.
If your local code does not require everything to be stamped (aka screwed by IRC) then search out a local guy with a bandmill who is sawing and use rough sawn for framing (stronger too!) - except sounds like that part is done?
We built 100% (NOTHING hired)* when we were in late 20s', full time job even involving travelling. DW did NOT work at the time. In 20s or even early 30s you can do 90 or 100 hour weeks yourself when you need to . Just no movies, no ballgames, that kind of non-productive waste <G>. After living with 2 sons in a 1300 sq ft house for 7 years, went for about 5300 sq ft.
7 YO son hand-nailed close to 20% of the 2nd floor 2x6 decking to 4 ft OC beams with 16d, recalls he had fun doing it - did need to go along and final sink some, no air nailer then.
We did plan ahead. Did own drawings, etc., so knew that part backwards and forward and never even looked at the plans once we had the permit. Planned for near zero waste.
Spent 5 years before we started stockpiling all the high price items (sinks, elec. fixtures, etc. some panelling, anything... ) as we found them at 20 cents on the dollar or cheaper. Nowadays, dont rule out ebay for fixtures, electrical parts, even wire. Buy all the wire you may need right now, it is probably going to go back up whenever recovery takes off (you should have bought all your wire last spring)
Had NO schedule as we did not even have a loan, built paycheck to paycheck.
Moved in with only kitchen and 2 bedrooms finished ( 2 years from permit), finished off the rest later.
*including digging a well and installing septic system.
PS: check your local county recycle site also - in King Co, WA, I get ALL my paint free from the recycle center. Often they even have some plastic pipe.
Edited 11/6/2009 6:28 am ET by junkhound
That's exactly what I did and there is a fortune to be saved if you think outside the box..
For example the cheapest low grade hardwood flooring I've ever seen is about a $1.00 a sq.ft. It's pretty rough!
I only paid 17 cents a sq.ft. for mine.. What I did was bought what wasn't fashionable at the time (darker woods like Cherry and Black walnut). My local sawmill has stacks of them sitting around without a buyer so he sold it to me for what he would get by selling to the pallet mills..
Now If I was really worried about every last penny I could have bought what are called slabs A bundle of slab wood costs about $20.00 here and has about 500 bd.ft. that's about 4 cents a bd.ft. Now 50% of that will be waste so your real costs will be closer to 8 cents a bd.ft.
That or thins.. I can buy 1000 bd.ft. of thins for $25.00 thins are boards of less than 1 inch thickness.. Wonderful for walls and trim.
Bottom line? I paid $25,000.00 for all the wood it took to build a 5500 sq.foot double timberframed house ( a total of 50,000 bd.ft.) by buying direct from a sawmill. Because you don't normally think in terms of bd.ft. That's enough wood to build everything made out of wood in about 10 normal sized houses.. Flooring, walls, subflooring, cabinets and etc..
By the way all of that wood is hardwood. Black walnut 45% white oak 40% cherry, rock maple, and various other hardwoods total the remaining 15%
The whole trick is to buy direct from a sawmill and not from a store or lumberyard!
There are at least 10 price increases from the sawmill to the store.. Cut out all that and the savings is monumental!
There are other things to do if you're interested..
Spend money on the hidden systems- framing, electrical, plumbing, etc. Stuff that's difficult to upgrade later. Use good plumbing fixtures. Save the money on the cabinets, doors, counters- stuff that can be upgraded fairly easily over the years.
Put a piece (or two) of 1-1/2" or 2" PVC pipe in the wall, from basement to attic. Cap it off for now. Then you'll have a wire chase if you ever need to pull new wires for telephone, computer, or anything new. Simple, easy, cheap- but extremely valuable if ever needed. I said two, because phone and computer wires shouldn't be run near electrical wires.
i'm surprised no one has mentioned ebay yet.
i have bought 5 ton central airs,furnaces,built in double ovens,stovetops,sinks,faucets,electrical wire,breaker boxes,fans,cabinet hardware,door knobs,anything you can think of can be bought there. i even looked at buying 3000' of oak and going after it.
lot of good advice here,like someone said,print it off ,read it late at night when your collasped in a chair.
oh,and i forgot something you will spend a lot of money on, tools! search the internet,buy ,use, sell on ebay.
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
i'm surprised no one has mentioned ebay yet.
Great tip. We got some stuff thru Ebay as well as a bunch of stuff thru the web as a whole, all at significant savings.
There's a ton of money to be saved but it goes hand in hand with Jason's observation of homebuilding being a full time job. And all that web searching, comparing, evaluating, etc. is time consuming. Great rewards to be had but it adds to to the time committment.
Runnerguy
I got my heat pump out of shopper, 4 ton,$200
Good idea with ebay. I had a friend tell me that the lowes/HD 10% coupons were plentiful on ebay for a few cents each. I'll check it out.
your right you can buy the 10% off coupons on ebay.usally run 1.00 each. the only problem is sometimes they will drag their feet taking them.
i go into the post office and get 3-4 of the change of address,i tell em i'm a landlord and want to give them to my tenants.
i also get them at my grocery store post office.
with these they are 100% legit and i have never had lowes or hd question.
did i mention ,hd will honor lowes?the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
when I build mine, 2x4 was $1.50 for the #2 and 42.50 for #1. me being cheap bought the cheap studs, NO DONT DO THAT. I threw so many away that was crook, spit.Also, never tellHD you want 300 2x4, you going get all the culls, they just grab and dump. Go to a good yard a buy good stuff, pay the extra money.roof sheating, buy the good stuff not the 1/2 3 ply. buy the 5/8 or 3/4 or would say 5 ply. nails, get ring nails
2x4 was $1.50 for the #2
last 2x4s I actually bought (as in pay money for) was 25 cents! (1974)
get them free now off old pallets, but dont need more than a few dozen at a time anymore.
That is an item I forgot to mention earlier. All my outside doors are oak and maple from pallet wood (NOT just the 4 ft by 3 ft ones).
If you have any major mfg areas near you (yes, you dont want to go to china) see if they have a 'free wood lot'. For my next house (or a grandkid's house) I have over 1000 sheets of 5 ft by 10 ft 3/4 inch 13 ply marine grade baltic birch stockpiled from pallets that aircraft parts were shipped on from Ireland.
Also, check around any wholesale distributors of hardwood. They chip it now, but Continental hardwoods in seattle used to put all the culls and trimmings into a 'firewood' pile. Most of my moulding came from similar spots.
Scrounge......................
Nearly every major city has someone who builds pallets.. Most pallets have to be made of Hardwood so find out who builds pallets, where they get their wood from and you've found a cheap source of wood!.
Plus you don't have to bother pulling those nasty spiral shank nails <grin>
Plus you don't have to bother pulling those nasty spiral shank nails <grin>
Frenchy, when you stick to 'technical stuff' you are right ON.
My ash pit holds 3 cu yards. Empty it about every 15 years. Last time if I were not so lazy I'da washed the ash off 3 tons of nails and got $600 at the recycle place. As is, put them around a D Fir 'plantation', D Fir supposedly love iron in the soil - first planting over a 'nail bed' 30 years ago already has a couple of 20 inch dia trees <G>
I came by that experiance the hard way.. I started out recycling pallets myself into various bits around the house. ( I was young and ambitious and had a lot of time and no money) I noted a lot of the pallets were oak and thought, hey here's my hardwood floor..
So I dragged pallets home every night and pulled nails while I watched TV.. about 6 months later I had enough boards to do my bedroom and started out.. 6 months after that I finished my bedroom. (the old house) While it looked ok I had to put a lot of plugs in to cover up all the nail holes and in a sense it looked like the floor had measles.
That's when I found out that I could make my own plugs from scrap wood and they would match much better than store bought ones..
I had pail upon pail of nails pulled and finally wound up tossing them in a scrap metal drum..
When I got smart and started to use scrap pallets for heating I'd simply shovel out the nails from the fireplace and toss them in the drum.. That's when I found out about the value of scrap metal..
Good Luck!
I designed and (re)built my home..Always assume a additonal 20% for everything and 40% if it is custom..
I worked with my framers/foundation/roofers..I was in the workers faces everyday..Because I didn't want a diviation from the plans that would cost me money.. The contractors that hated me being that close to all the work I got rid of them. The good ones respected I wanted a quality job for the money..
Also as I am sure you know if you modify the design while the home is being built the more it's going to cost out of your wallet..
I'll just add this encouragement;
If you are relatively young and intend for this home to be an investment as well as a home, remember that every $ you gain in sweat equity will pay off 10-fold in years ahead.
We built a house as both a home and an investment almost 20 years ago. It was 14 months of exhausting work while holding down another job. In the end, we spent about $95K on a house appraised at about $115. There was no party to celebrate that savings. I told myself never again would I kill myself for $20K in savings.
But here's the thing; We came out of it with a $72K 15-year mortgage that we paid off in 7 years. During those 7 years the house increased in value a lot and we sold it for $182K. We bought the next house (a fixer-upper in an area we adore) for CASH and have not had a mortgage since. Not having mortgage payments has completely changed our lives in ways too numerous to get into. But suffice it to say that we have a relatively low income and a relatively high quality of life.
We owe it all to that first house we built 20 years ago and didn't think at the time that we made enough profit from...
I built my house because I wanted a concrete house, not frame. nobody does concrete any more. I spent 49k and could of walk into won at 70k.
You are not going save any money but it be done your way. the only advice I can give you, Once you have blueprints in hand, dont change anything from the blueprint. that where money come is modifing framing, etc.
I always get confused when guys say they "built their house" when they actually acted as the builder and subbed out most of the trades.
I built my house. The only trades I subbed out were drywall and the chimneys. I also hired a guy to install my oil tank and burner, but I did all the manifolds and tubing runs for the radiant floor heat. Did everything else essentially solo, my wife assisted as did my kids, who then were 3 and 5.
Drew out the plans on graph paper. The building department accepted them. Milled 95% of the trim, built all my own cabinets. That's where you can save some money.
It was like having three full-time jobs at once. My regular job, plus double for the house, because when I wasn't working on the house I was thinking about the house or buying materials for the house.
Your family HAS to be on board. My wife was fabulous. She kept all the paperwork, took my lists, made phone calls for me, she did all the trivial stuff that saved my bacon so I could stay focused on construction.
My kids, then 3 and 5, had a blast. They were on site everyday, they helped with anything from picking up nails, sorting cutoffs into piles, arranging scraps, to even helping with some of the building.
They were so good at scrap hunting that I had literally no waste or construction debris. No dumpster. All I had to take away to the dump was about a cubic yard of drywall scraps after the drywall crew finished up.
Took 11 months from starting to get the CofO, we moved in with the house "functional" but not totally trimmed out.
I spent 70k on the lot, about $160k on materials, the first appraisal came in at $540k.
Building yourself, it'll make you stronger or it really will destroy you. It's physically grueling, and if your family isn't on board, it could be emotionally draining and stressful. But to me it's easier than acting as the general contractor and having to deal with subs. I always knew I'd be on site and I always knew my work would be up to snuff.
I was very wary of theft, so when I was framing I'd usually have two lumber drops a week. One for the first floor platform, a couple days later, one for the first floor walls, and so on.
I bought my appliances retail, same with plumbing fixtures. My wife did most of the legwork then I'd go with her to make sure we both liked what was picked out.
It's tough. But mighty satisfying.
I built my house, clear the lot, dug the footer, tie the rebar, place the concrete, laid the block, filled he block. had help with the trusses, deck it myself, tin roof myself, wire it, plumb it, havac it myself, hung drywall, paid somebody to finish drywall, acid stain the concrete.built my own shop. another storypaid 7000 for lot. total 49k including lotI built my own house and it shows.
I remember the photos of your acid stained floors, I liked the look. How are they holding up?
I spent 70k on the lot, about $160k on materials, the first appraisal came in at $540k.
Yeah, but you are a 'young kid' <G>
Hindsight example of Frenchy's oft dreamed of inflation, here are similar #s for my house from early 1970s:
spent 9k on 4 acres, about $15k on materials, current assessment 7 figures. Taxes are about as much every year as it cost!!
Yup, the taxes will always get you. I'm at about $1.3 now which I think is high. I'm hoping it goes lower. I have no plans to sell. Hopefully the next assessment will come after a little more turmoil in the market.Or maybe I should let the paint peel and the roof moss over. Hmmm...
Junkhound..
That's where I am too. Paid $107,000 for the property back in 1984. Well actually I sold my old home for $99,000 that I'd paid $27,800 back in 1976 so technically I have $35,800 into a home that this summer appraised for 7+ figures..
I do have bit more in my place but still probably a million less than if I'd have others build it for me..
Inflation is here now,, all you have to do is check the value of the dollar versis other worlds currancy's and compare it to 10 years ago..
That's why gas is $2.69 a gallon and homes are so expensive etc..
We've been through all of this before.. If you were around during Vietnam the post war inflation was terrible.. here we aren't even post war yet and inflation is rocking right along..
(except wages which always lag inflation)
Edited 11/7/2009 8:10 am ET by frenchy
That was actually not a new house build though - was it? More like a very major remodel... Likely might have even been much more trouble/expense than a build but let's use apples to apples comparisons. This guy is talking about a from scratch build.
Well I put a new foundation (ICF) in and tore down everything and built new.. Sure I lived in part of it while the other part was being built but the final tear down was the last of the old house.
Instead of starting at the far end and working towards the close end I had to start at the close end and tear down build to the far end.. Thus I was always working over new construction.
(politics and lot problems)
I agree with junkhound with an exception of three things(for you). Plumbing, electrical, and drywall.
The plumbing and electrical, have done by others because of the time frame of DIY and you say these are your weak points. Specially if you have any kind of construction loan. The interest/payments will almost/maybe pay for the labor. If you have the excess time and are willing to learn on the job and deal with inspections, the go for it.
Drywall is another story. It just ain't worth the headache(get it, migraine) to experience the learning curve and these guys are fast(hopefully). It just sain;'t worth the body ache. Plus, you need help and you don't want a family mutiny on your hands.
I'm saying this from experience. It almost killed my marriage on our last home remodel and we hads done 3 before. When I say almost, I actually filed for divorce 5 months ago because of the blame game and the wife put me/us through. I still loved her but I could not deal with it any more. Moving in the middle of the remodel and trying to sell in a down turn market, all which seemed to be my fault was the breaking point. (this is the short version)
We are still together, thank God. But this is what it took to make others open their eyes. And everything is still not fixed, but we are working on it.
migraine
I think electrical is very easy to do. Start at the outlets and wire right back to the box.. If you're worried about getting a shock just identify the circuit near the box and have an electrician connect into the box..
Same with plumbing. Shif goes downhill, don't lick you're fingers..
Sheetrock isn't hard to learn. The only skill is cutting and watch someone who's done it and follow them.. Mudding has a little skill involved. but again something you can learn easily by watching a pro..
Making trim from green lumber is a bit harder but not impossible Same with flooring..
I agree with everything you say. But, the impression i picked up is that he it isn't experienced.
On the job learning is great, when you have the time. Time, along with other priorities is the question to be answered.
another thing, to be adressed is time management. While the pros are doing the rough in and drywall, I'd be building cabinetry and finishing(in your case, hueing lumber)
Edited 11/6/2009 7:33 pm by migraine
I did my house while working full time. All of of it was done evenings and weekends. sleep and eating was cut down to about 6 hours a night. NY wife felt if she cooked the meals and washed the clothes that was her contribution.. My oldest daughter helped me once but since she was a 17 year old teenager at the time boys and school came first..
However I finished a 5500 sq.ft. double timberframed home in about 9 years..
This was my first and only house. Before that all my experiance had been in cars..
It can be done..
However I finished a 5500 sq.ft. double timberframed home in about 9 years..
I'm sorry, I don't get your point ;-)
The trade off for doing everything yourself is time. Darn few people are willing to make that sort of committment and even fewer dedicated enough to follow through on their committment.
"My oldest daughter helped me once but since she was a 17 year old teenager at the time boys and school came first.. However I finished a 5500 sq.ft. double timberframed home in about 9 years.. "Your daughter was 17, for 9 years ???;o)..It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Ahhhh Luka! Yah got me.. ;-)
I think sheetrock is the worst thing a DIY homebuilder can do. It's certainly do-able, but in my own case I had just busted my butt building the shell, running the services, blah, blah blah. After several months of hard work, it was a mini-vacation for me to watch a bunch of french-canadiens run around my house on stilts for two weeks while I started planning a few runs of cabinetry. For me, it was money very well spent.And had I done my own drywall, I'd curse myself at every imperfection. Instead, now I can look back and curse them. TABERNAK!A whole house of DIY sheetrock is just demoralizing.
sheetrock is the worst thing a DIY homebuilder can do
Yep, gotta agree with that.
Did my own, but only for fire protection, paneled over all but about 20 percent, and DW wallpapered over all of that in following years. Only 2 small 16 by 12 ft rooms have DW ceiling, all else wood.
I disagree.While yes, my first runs of drywall are not pretty (I will be redoing the kitchen, my first big sheetrock project), every square foot you do makes you better. You know what makes us different from the people in the trades? Practice... Practice... Practice... and some old guy always standing over their shoulder given em #### for doing a bad job when they start out... who still gives them #### when they do a good job, but by then they have enough experience to know the difference!
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
That's cool that you're good at it. I'm not. Had I tried to rock my house solo, it probably would have taken me two months instead of the two weeks it took the crew.Drywall is not my forte. Plus, building my house solo? Having that two-week "break" of watching the drywall crew run around after four months of me busting my arse, it was a physical and mental spa treatment that somewhat rejuvenated me for the next few months of work.For me it's a cost-benefit. It cost relatively little to hire a rock crew when I compared it to the benefit of me being able to move on to other things. I can't tape and mud well, and the imperfections in my work would have driven me absolutely nuts.A 4100 sqft house, 10' first-floor ceilings, and 12' sheets of 5/8ths inch rock? Just shoot me! <g>Seriously, I'm glad guys like you can do it. But like someone else wrote, what are our abilities? Drywall is not mine. I mean, maybe I could do it and get good at it, but I really didn't even want to. For me, hiring a crew afforded me a nice break.
Edited 11/8/2009 9:33 am ET by Mongo
Actually, with a whole house that does make sense. But with me I'm constantly remodeling, going room to room, so it's better that I learn to patch the holes I makes.
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Any thoughts would be appreciated!
OK, here's another concept for your consideration. Build only as many rooms as you need right now but design the house to add a wing with a master BR suite and whatever else you might like later.
Starts your mortgage out with payments that you can easily afford and keeps your property taxes low too. Gives you the option of adding later for your own use or just before selling the place.
Build a smaller house, one you can afford.
I built the first half of my house and added on last year. Be prepared to have little sleep and a long time line. I work in construction and after a 60 hour week the last thing i want to do is work on my place. The rewards are great and so are the savings. I did everything myself and if you figure that each trade ie plumbing electrical is about 15 g each doing it yourself will save you lots of money. Study the code and you will be fine. If you get worried get your wife to bake cookies and feed it to the inspectors and dazzle them with a lot of BS and you will get passed and good luck.
Wayne, "Build a smaller house, one you can afford."Thats great, simple advice. I believe the lack of that, in a nutshell, is what got us into this "housing crisis" to begin with.
We are building about 1330 sq ft.....plenty of room for the two of us and even a rugrat down the road. still have had plenty of people question why we would build a 2 bed, 2 bath home ....one that clearly has little resale value?!"Build better, not bigger"
"Build better, not bigger"
You might want to check out Sarah Susanka's "Not so Big House" series.
http://www.amazon.com/Not-So-Big-House-Blueprint/dp/1600850472/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237287008&sr=1-2
Runnerguy
>> We are building about 1330 sq ft.....plenty of room for the two of us and even a rugrat down the road. << and
>> "Build better, not bigger" <<
I believe we are just on the leading edge of actual consumer buy-into the "less is more" mentality in housing. You hear a lot of talk about it, but here anyway home buyers aren't yet rushing to put their money where their mouth is. I think maybe people are tired of being in dept, especially with so many people being unsure about their job stability. Just my opinion, probably tainted by my own situation, but we will see. Also, at least in this real estate market the big houses - say >4000 sq ft - are the ones that are selling the worst, and those builders and sellers are really taking the brunt of this housing situation. We will see though.
OTOH 1330 sq ft is fairly modest. I've built several that size so have a very good feeling for the "space". It sounds like you may be relatively young and you way want to grow in more ways than one "rugrat". If it isn't too late you may want to design in the possibility of an addition. Maybe a 3rd bedroom/office and/or maybe a (detached?) garage if the house currently doesn't have a garage. Key would be placing the house on the lot to support this. Maybe a little extra capacity at the electrical panel/service. Extra capacity on the septic system if it is septic. That's about it though. The lot placement and septic may be things that can't be feasibly fixed later is there just plain isn't enough room.
The good news is that a 1330 sq ft house will be a more manageable project.
>> still have had plenty of people question why we would build a 2 bed, 2 bath home ....one that clearly has little resale value?! << Don't worry too much about what other people thing as long as you are willing to make a 10 or 15 year commitment to stay there.
As far as the above advice about making all your decisions ahead of time, the key motivator here is creating a budget that works for you. It's difficult to have a real budget without knowing what you will be buying. If you can save some money on some items later all the better. Those cost savings will help to offset unforseen expenses that always come up in the building process. That, and it is very easy to later fall into the trap of "hey - won't it be really cool if we add #### right here?".
Good luck. It sounds like you have realistic goals.
I would design the house to accommodate a future addition, if the need arises later. My cape house is 800 sq ft, plus the basement. It's livable, but cramped. Four bedrooms, all tiny.
I built a cottage several years ago for 54K. That was everything I spent on that property( not including the land). And that was when 1/2" plywood was $12 a sheet.
Total cost of just the house from footer to ridge cap was 35K,. Big savings was kitchen appliances and cabinets for free. Couple of small things I might mention: I could have (or should have) done the hvac ducting myself, and just let the heat guy install the furnace and get it up and running. Mybe could have save about 1500.
I bought the drywall and insulation from a large supplier,they delivered and stocked the house. I think I paid something like $9 a sheet for the drywall. Could have gotten lowes to deliver for way less then that, except that would be forklifted on the ground.
There are some other things I light mention, but I'm on may way out the door.
"I could have (or should have) done the hvac ducting myself, and just let the heat guy install the furnace"I have been curious about (no research yet, just curious) installing the heating system myself. We are planning on a mitsubishi mini split system. (a single in the open main floor and and a short ducted one upstairs.) I wonder if my HVAC guy helps with the load calcs specs the equipment I could'nt install it myself?Any experience there?
I could'nt install it myself?
Any experience there?
Did all my own when in 20s even without the internet for support, just the library.
Why cant you do the load calcs, etc yourself, are you mathematically challenged?>?
The "HVAC for dummies" load calc is called "manual J", just google it or similar.
Around 1990-91 I found a couple of old late 80's issues of FHB in my Dad's basement. I subscribed soon afterwards. My Dad also had a book titled something like "Build Your Dream House for $3500" that was written ages ago. I forget, might have been from the 40's or 50's. But it showed every facet of frame construction, it was incredibly detailed. I bought Rob Thallon's "Graphic Guide to Frame Construction" as well as his other book dealing with interior details. When we bought the land here in CT in 1995, I visited the building inspector for my town and then bought the applicable code books. I read the NEC and took notes. Read the plumbing code and took notes.There are some tremendous internet resources out there today, I didn't have that when I built. But a lot of bad info too. 95% of the DIY stuff on TV is just plain scary.A brought an HVAC guy in to add air conditioning 3 or 4 years after we moved in. Told him what I wanted. Like junkhound wrote, run your own Manual J, because most guys will just do a square footage rule-of-thumb. The HVAC laborers kept cutting corners. The sub finally understood that I was serious about wanting sealed ducts when I attacked and tore down all the installed ductwork in the basement with the claw end of my framing hammer. Some guys don't understand "do it the way I'm paying you to do it" until you attack the issue. Literally.My foundation crew was great. The masons that built my chimney, a father and son team, were great. The french-canadiens that dry walled were fine.My wife was fabulous. I still remember the first day of "framing", when we set, by hand, three 46' long LVLs and sistered them together as the main beam for the house. We had a bit of difficulty wrestling the third LVL into the foundation pocket. But we did it. And the first nailing to be done was hand-nailing the LVLs to join them together. Argh, not having developed any "hammer swinging muscles" yet, standing in the basement and pounding hundreds of sinkers into overhead LVL beams? Fatiguing. Yeah, I framed without air nailers. I didn't buy an air nailer until I was trimming out, an air gun makes it a lot easier to hang 16' pieces of crown solo. I think my wife's biggest job was she wanted to prime the cedar clap siding. By hand. That was to be her job. She set up a couple of drying racks and primed hour after hour, day after day. Around 5200 linear feet. She'd have to take a mineral spirits sponge bath at the end of the day to clean herself up. I think a big part of it is that you have to WANT to build your own house. Not to save money. But because YOU want to build shelter for your family. It's sort of the caveman mentality. Provide shelter. But again, your family has to be on board with the plan, because while the entire family may not be invested physically by swinging hammers, they will be emotionally invested in the project.Oh heck, I'm rambling. I am outta here.
I think the most common advice out there is some version of "keep a check on your relationship" We are still framing so its a long road ahead but I have the benefit of my partner being in the business (a landscape designer) She can read a tape, run a skilsaw and operate the framing gun. ...plus shes cute, what a deal for me! It certainly makes it a little easier knowing we (like you and your wife) are both putting in some sweat equity. We both have enough experience with projects to know we wont always agree and at times it will be a pain in the a@@. But it shore feels nice sitting in your living room on a cold winters night knowing every detail of process that got you to this point. I think its unfortunate so many folks try to talk others out of building their family a home. Sure its hard, sure everything wont go the way you want it to. Sure it'll take along time. Step up to the challenge! ....or just buy a trailer in a park and move in this weekend. To each his own...
Good for you. My wife and I have built two houses together. I have built scores on my own, but the sense of achievement on the projects we shared is different, better. The more that goes wrong, the funnier stuff is that happens, the more memories you will have to chew over when you're old.
Well said..
I used to enjoy going on long cross country trips. However the fun quickly wore off.. Then I started taking trips that I knew would be a challenge. Trips in older cars I restored where there was a good chance things would go wrong..
Those turned out to be the best most memorable trips. I still remember walking up and down the freeway with a camping gas lantern looking for carburator parts in the early hours of the morning.
The shear joy of finding every single part, putting it back together and driving off is a great pleasure! Victories like that, like when I completed the exterior of my house or saw those big timber trusses lift into the air are memories that are simply invaluable..
I can't remember hitting my finger or thumb once on the project but I know I must have.. dust in the eye,, sealant in my hair, tired, bone tired. I don't remember that.
Like you I can sit here and look at these timbers each of which I installed and shaped myself.. Now that is pleasure no mere check writter will ever know..
And that's the beauty of building "your" house. You can make it "yours."My wife is 5'1" and a serious cook. I'm 6'4". Our kitchen is probably the best example of a "custom" kitchen that you could find, in that is was designed and built for our individual ergonomics as well as how we operate as a couple and share duties within the kitchen space. Several times over the years I've bought her "cooking lessons", where a chef will come in and prep a meal with my wife and a few of my wife's friends. Sort of a social, but also a way to hone cooking skills/techniques and end up with a fine meal too. Every time the chef has called back within a few days asking to come back over to talk about our kitchen design and layout. I don't know if we were just ahead of the "workspace design trend", but they've always taken interest. It's not that there's really anything unusual about the space...it's just that everything just seems to be where it's supposed to be.To some a house is a house, to others it's a home.Work hard, but have fun.
To me, the sense of accomplishment is amazing. There's a lot I can't do, but I want to be a part of the process doing what I can. We take breaks between the different projects to give the relationship time to relax. DH does the designing and I help the builders with the building part.
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Mongo said "Your family HAS to be on board. My wife was fabulous."
Mine is too (she puts up with me) but she would have none of it despite my trying as hard as I could to convince her to build ourselves. It takes two to tango and in hindsight it was a good thing. We ended up buying a 1 1/2 year old home a few years ago. Not sure if I'll outlast the mortgage and there are some details I need to fix; the kind of stuff that drove me nuts after years of working on other peoples stuff. But DW is happy- if she's not happy no one is. Sounds like you've got the relationship part figured out. See it through and you'll really have something you can call your own and you'll be ahead of the game. Best of luck and don't forget a few pics along the way.
"There can be no doubt that Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the state…Socialism is in its essence an attack not only on British enterprise, but upon the right of ordinary men and women to breathe freely without having a harsh, clammy, clumsy tyrannical hand clasped across their mouth and nostrils" -Winston Churchill
We are on house 2 and a few remodels in other places. DW is cute and great. Cleaning up after painting can be fun:)I bought a used drywall lift told everyone it was cheaper than a divorice lawyer. Used it rented it for many cases of beer and sold it for more that I paid for it.One thing to consider we needed a Journeyman plumber to do the DVW. No can't do it your self. When we built we could do our own electrical, now you have to have a journey man do any work in the box.Biggest saving was making my own kitchen cabinets. saved about $20.000 and DW got exactly what she wanted.Bought most of the birch from a mill and made own trim saved $$$I bought WCB for any friend/ family that came on site. Did not want to get sued.ICF foundation and my shop was made from the carp old house that we took apart when we bought a ars kick lakeside lot. 1200 foot shop cost about $5,000 besides foundation.Subed out stucco, install boiler for radient floor, Crappy crete job on the floor( went to court) and roof. I don't like heights. Made a playhouse for the kids 4 & 5 to keep off the site. But they did clean up and painted there own rooms and bathroom.in 1997 lot $80,000 House 3500 feet, boat house, 1200 foot detached shop $230.000
last apprasial $ 600.000 +. made the top floor barrier free so as we age we just stay up stairs.Big commitment but, this is the last house we will live in, Build it for you and forget resale 1300 feet is lots if it is not all cut up. Don't forget the cost of heating cooling will keep some cash in the pocket. and the tax man won't kill you either.Post some pics
can't help on the hvac.
what is your budget for this project?
We (my father and I) installed our first mini split system. When it needed to be replaced, I had a company do it. Mainly for the warranty. When our first one went out, the manufacturer wouldn't talk to a home owner about repair/parts.
I'd like to address the -unfortunately common- misperception that being a homeowner automatically makes you smarter and better than all those over-priced tradesmen and greedy contractors. Sure you can do it - Home Depot says so!
Building a home is a huge undertaking. Indeed, it remind me of the very first article I ever read in FH. The opening line of the story want something like this: "As an archetect I had been designing places for years. So, I designed my own home, and set about building it. Along the way, I learned that I had been doing it wrong all those years ...."
There's a reason they're called "SKILLED trades." Apart from the techincal details of each trade, their is a way to run a jobsite, a method to the madness. In essence, a jobsite is a stage, and all the guys have a role in the dance, with the GC as the conductor.
The plan is critical. Drew it yourself? There's more to it than just a floor plan. The plan represents truss calculations, framing details, duct sizing, pipe schedules, and dedicated circuits. It's a rare person who is competent in all those disciplines. There's a reason plans usually wind up bearing the stamps of many professionals.
So, to start with, there's a lot to be said for buying a proven plan. Once the plans are approved, then things can begin.
Here the old maxim "Plan your work, then work your plan" really comes to life. If you don't think using a shovel is precision work, you'll wind up with a toilet flange in the middle of the kitchen.
Even if you are capable of doing all the work yourself, do you have the time? You will be slower than a professional crew, and you have to live somewhere during the job. One of the reasons that your work will be slower and shabbier than a professional's job is because you lack the necessary tools, etc. The pros are able to spread the cost of their tools over many jobs; yours is a one-off. Consider that each tradesman probably has $10,000 invested in tools, and each contractor another $15,000. Every tool, from a screwdriver to a rotary laser, costs money. As do the temporary power, lights, and porta-potty. Trash hauling is another major expense (even without everyone in town adding their sofa to the dumpster).
Time also works against you, as the weather becomes a factor, and you are more likely to have problems with vandals, vagrants, and thieves.
I think 'doing it yourself' will take you four times as long, amd cost you twice as much, as hiring the pros. This is especially true, now that contractors are desperate for work.
Hire a contractor today, and there is a possibility that you'll have the foundation done, and the place closed in, by Christmas. Maybe. It's that time of year where weather is really beginning to effect work. Wait a week, and you're SOL; Mother Nature waits for no one.
Come Spring, you can make a difference by preparing the site for the pros. I don't mean just grading; I mean 'build a job site' for them. That is, rent some shipping containers so that materials can be secured; rent a portable office for project management, get a temporary power drop and a porta-potty in place. Rent some fencing to further secure the site.
You point out some very good arguments in favor of using the pros. However that does have it's limitation as as well.
For example the pride of doing it yourself..
The power of knowing how it was built and thus knowing how to repair it.
The feeling of accomplishment as it comes together.
The ability to create something totally yours..
You are again absolutely correct when you say professional grade tools help build a good house better. Plus usually faster! To deal with the professional grade tools issue there are lots of solutions.. Buy good used tools and then resell when finished with them.. much less than renting! I've known people who actually don't wind up spending any money on tools when the whole job is finished..
As for costing a DIY twice as much, that's possible especially if the DIY is just a check writer hiring subs to do everything..
However It's also possible to save a massive percentage if you actually do everything yourself.. I didn't pay myself a cent, nor pay any taxes on the money I didn't spend.. My insurance was the same insurance I normally had. Since I promised myself not to sue myself if I was hurt I didn't need a lot of those sorts of things..
Plus a professional must get paid for anytime spent on the project.. Change your mind and a pro has to add costs to it.. Whereas a DIY has to kick himself in the butt if he changes his mind it doesn't cost any more..
State of the art construction techniques are simply a labor cost. Not a learning cost too! Since the DIY guy doesn't have to unlearn a traditional way with new processes it's probably just as fast for the DIY guy to do it as a pro.
I'm referring to stuff like ICF's SIP's and and other techniques new to most contractors..
It's a rare person who is competent in all those disciplines
You and DW maybe think the same as she thinks I'm special (<G>), but IMNSHO, the limit to competency is if you are EITHER intellectually OR physically LAZY!! - that lazy factor is what makes incompetence. DW says otherwise as regards the talents God gave you, but I think ANYBODY who REALLY WANTS TO* can be competent in anything it takes to build a house.
** obvious exceptins - a quadrapalegic or the severe mentally challenged ( those the right PR words now?, or is quad a bad word? )
EDIT PS: Probably every professional on BT owes their livelyhood to lazy people -- should I start a new theread onthis and see if I join Tom in the realm of the banned as I reply to some possible comments <G>
Edited 11/7/2009 5:08 pm ET by junkhound
Agree.
Most people are limited...because they spend too much time with the TV remote control in their hands.
We're largely in agreement, as I'm sure you could figure out from my initial post. And I should point out that we had a number of advantages that others don't have, and without which we wouldn't likely have undertaken such a project ourselves:
1) My dad is an architect, and he designed the place for us.
2) Father-in-law does concrete, and can build just about anything else. He not only did all the concrete work but installed all our siding (Alcoa Structure) and did all of our sheet-metal work around the windows, etc. He did all the grade work as well. He also did a hundred other miscellaneous projects around the house - helped lay the hardwood, helped w/ tile base, deck framing, etc.
3) Brother-in-law is an electrician. He and his guys did nearly the entire job there.
Even with those advantages, we still hired out a hell of a lot of things. We were able to avail ourselves of a number of contractor discounts through my FIL. Virtually all the other subs were hired via recommends from my FIL and BIL. We didn't necessarily get a better deal, but we got good work, which counts even more.
All told, the build *did* take longer than we'd have liked - 14 months in total. Upon reflection, we hired out a helluva lot of stuff, not counting work from family members who got paid too. A probably-incomplete list of what we hired:
- Foundation- Framing (We did some minor stuff, like closets and duct chases)- Plumbing (We did a few fixtures)- Drywall- Most of the trim carpentry (I did some base)- Stain/finish for woodwork/cabinetry and floors- Insulation (We did the garage walls and LR ceiling [for sound] )- Roofing- Brickwork- Cabinetry- HVAC - Tile in entry, mudroom and baths- Carpet- Gutters- Sod- Fencing
For our part, we:
- Dampproofed the foundation and installed drain tile- Did backfill and dirt work, up to final grade- Placed concrete- Installed siding and soffit- Laid the hardwood floors- Built the built-in cabinetry (still working on that)- Did all painting, inside and out- Installed attic vent chutes for insulation- Caulked/foamed all penetrations, windows and doors- Built the deck and back porch, installed beadboard ceiling- Built front porch columns and railing, installed beadboard ceiling there- Installed tile base- Installed tile backsplashes in mudroom and kitchen- All landscaping work, including retaining walls
Both lists are probably short an item or two. Our list was plenty long enough.
What did we get for our money? Well, a two-story, about 2800 FSF above grade, with ~350 more bonus space above the garage. Three beds, three baths, with a loft space on 2nd floor in lieu of a 4th bedroom. Big 3-car garage, mudroom, main floor office, big kitchen w/ lots of cabinets, lots of other storage throughout the house.
We have a full basement, excavated under the porch and two of the three garage spaces w/ stairs from garage to basement. Future guest BR/bath and rec area downstairs.
Quite a few upgrades - nice tile w/ Spectralock grout, 5" oak floors, Craftsman-style wide trim and cabinets, the aforementioned built-ins, covered deck w/ tropical hardwood surface, big wraparound front porch. Two 93% heat pump/furnaces w/ ERV, tankless water heater. Good wood/aluminum clad casement windows, fiberglass front door w/ sidelites and transom lite, two front-hall closets. And a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting, I'm sure.
We did that for about $295,000, not including the lot, which was $38K. To buy the equivalent from a builder, as far as I can figure, would have cost us probably 20-30% more.
Am I happy with how it turned out? Largely. There a few minor things I would change, a few design details that don't live exactly the way I'd envisioned. Would I do it again? Not in a million years. Too stressful. It nearly killed my relationship w/ my in-laws and just plain ol' nearly killed me.
I ever build another house, I'm going to hire the whole damned thing out.
"I'd like to address the -unfortunately common- misperception that being a homeowner automatically makes you smarter and better than all those over-priced tradesmen and greedy contractors.""Hire a contractor today""'doing it yourself' will take you four times as long, and cost you twice as much, as hiring the pros""One of the reasons that your work will be slower and shabbier than a professional's job is because you lack the necessary tools, etc."Not sure if you ment all that directed at me but since it had my name on it ill assume you did...
I think some of your advice would be pertinent if I was not a carpenter/contractor (which I am)..see "profile", and I had no experience building,..(which I do).However...While I think we may agree that HD and HGTV have convinced many rookies that building a house is a piece of cake I think empowering people to take difficult tasks into their own hands is not all bad (even if it takes some money out of my pocket!). It wasnt much more than a generation ago that a much greater percentage of men (and women) built a home for their family. With the advent of modern codes and technology the process has become more daunting, true. I still admire folks who take the time to study, learn and execute a remodel or new house. Yes, to become an efficient homebuilder takes many yrs of practice. But what we do ain't rocket science. Plenty of inexperienced, smart people with attention to detail, a humble attitude, and commitment to study and excellence have built and will continue to build quality homes every day........and someday when they die, their kids will hire a carpenter to trim out those last couple windows in the guest bedroom they were always meaning to get to.
please see my previous post to illustrate that there are thousands of different decisions to be made during the whole process. You think you know them all, but you don't. Prepare yourself and most especially your wife for that reality.
Then, do the best you can, and have fun doin it. Good Luck. And work hard!!!
"While I think we may agree that HD and HGTV have convinced many rookies that building a house is a piece of cake I think empowering people to take difficult tasks into their own hands is not all bad ".
I agree. There's certainly the element of doing an endeavor because of the challenge. I think there's far too many people that go through life living way to far inside the comfort zone. And there's hundreds of things that can be a challenge. Writing a book and getting it published, starting a business from scratch, being a tireless advocate for any one of a hundred social issues, acting in a play, having a one man art or photography show.....
For me, while I've GC'ed three of my own houses over the years partly done because of the challenge, 10 years after taking up running I finally met the qualifying time for the Boston Marathon and ran that race a few years ago.
As Kate Hepburn observed "There are no laurels in life ... just new challenges".
The very best of luck and keep us informed as to progress.
Runnerguy
JP,
A lot of guys have warned you about what can go wrong. There's a lot that can go right--especially if you know your limitations. I built this house in 1980 for my parents. The photo was taken last spring.
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I was 30 years old at the time and had worked as a roofer, carpenter and mason. My crew was my 18-yr.-old brother (for three months during the summer) and my 22-yr.-old brother. We did the foundation, the frame, the insulation, the roof, the brickwork, the painting and the finish carpentry, including the kitchen. We helped my cousin with the sheetrock. We subbed out the electric, plumbing and HVAC.
The house was simple, which matched my framing skills at the time. We made some mistakes but the house, which cost about $60,000 (including the lot) in 1980 is now worth $260,000. My brothers and I worked for subsistence wages for six months. My father died in the house in 1993 and my mother still lives there. All in all, it was a great experience for me and the rest of my family.
Edited 11/9/2009 10:58 am ET by Mudslinger
Edited 11/9/2009 11:01 am ET by Mudslinger
I know you mean well... but I believe your whole thought pattern to be wrong... that just my opinion..I believe that anyone can do anything another can... with a little bit of study and alot of work...work is way under rated... it's a good thing... and the idea of a 40hr work week.... wht exactly do you plan on doing the other 80 hrs? sleeping is for when you are dead my friend... you'll have lots of time for it then...do most professionals NEED $20k worth of tools? I have more and better tools than any "professional" I know for any trade you can name and if you take out the 10k i have in my newest skid steer I doubt I have 20k in all of them... and I have warehouses full..Time? where exactly do you need to be and when? why rush... have fun... enjoy working... working is far better than "working out"Plans? yes you should have a good idea of where you are going and how t get there... but i have never had professional plans add ANY value to a project only had them when required to and it has always been an unneeded expense and a wastewhat I do hire out is day labor... the cost for an unskilled helper is small compared to the time it saves have'n someone there to hold the end something... drywall as many have stated has a huge cost vs time factor... but drywall is all labor and a basic skill set... it's not hard to do well... it just takes time and more than one person to do it effectively...what you need to maybe say next time is "this is what i would do with my set of skills and tools and ability to work"p
Far be it for me to challenge another's "beliefs."
As for the original poster ... if he wants to do something for the challenge, and the sense of accomplishment, good for him. If he want's to do it to save either time or money, he's barking up the wrong tree.
Tools add up. If you doubt me, chenck any pro's inventory. While "need" is a relative term ... for example, a rotohammer can be replaced by dripping water, if you have a few thousand years to wait ... I'll go with the vote of the building trades.
For example, one employer, when he hired me, handed me a list of basic tools. Apart from a driver/drill, all were fairly basic hand tools. In 2000, the cost to purchase the items on this list was about $1200, and that was without getting fancy. (No $250 hammers).
That list did not include the thousands of dollars worth of tools that the employer provided on a daily basis. Ever 'general duty' tools like the afore-mentioned rotohammer, ladders (no one can have just one), compressors, and support items (hoses, cords, etc.) all add up - fast.
For example, I have at least $400 of bits for my roto-hammer .... more than the cost of even the 'best' SDS roto-hammer available.
Let's not forget the expense of specialty tools, either. Tools used by one trade, but not by others. For example, the electrician will use a pipe bender, while the plumber will thread pipe.
Apart from tools and materials, I find that every trade requires a different attitude. The attitudes that make you a good roofer will work against your being a good painter. There's a reason they're called 'skilled' trades, and I suppose that one can master several- given time. There we are, back to my opening point: DIY won't save either time or money.
You need not take my word as to the skills, or limitations of DIY. This forum is chock-full of threads where pros have to find a way to deal with problems created by the DIY-er. Other threads are best described as some DIY-er trying to reinvent the wheel, and making a mess of things along the way.
The need for plans is best demonstrated in that TV series, "Engineering Disasters." On a less dramatic note, the "Great Moments in Building History" collection has tales of a framer building a house backwards, and an electrician wiring the wrong house ... both as a result of poor planning. Oops. There are three folksy ways of saying it:
In the Army, they say "Time spent on reconnaisance is seldom wasted."
In the Navy, it's: "Pay attention to detail."
In the trades, it's the "5 P's" : Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance.
I didn't invent any of those sayings; that they have all been around since the Civil War suggests that they have passed the test of time.
With regard to good quality tools.. they are available on the internet for usually less than 1/2 of priginal cost If you buy them use them for your one project and then resell them your net cost will be close to nothing.
I do agree that quality tools are the key to a quality job.. But it doesn't have to be the cost that you claim.
As for saving money? Yes you certainly can. But only in exchange for your work.. Not if you merely want to subcontract everything yourself.. In that case the experiance of a real contractor at getting good work at modest costs will more than offset any premium he may charge.
If you believe sweeping up or picking up trash is beneath you then this isn't something you should do. If you look on such tasks as part of the job and a further chance for you to save money then perhaps you are ready to DIY
DIY won't save either time or money
Strong disagreement on that point - literally thousands of personnal examples...
In own experience, just finding somebody to do about anything well other than major surgery or dental takes longer that DIY, let alone cost and taxes !!
Junkhound, I notice that you are far more likely to be answering questions here, than asking them. Don't let this go to your head, but I think you're one of the few folks who have a realistic appreciation of just what is involved in building a house.
Most folks , when it comes to building, are like day-hikers setting out to hike the Applacian Trail. They have no clue what they're getting into.
Heck, in our commercial lives we have all seen a multitude of homeowners and flippers express amazement at just how involved their 'simple' project was.
I feel it would be irresponsible to paint a rosy picture for the man.
I feel it would be irresponsible to paint a rosy picture for the man.
That is a good comment.
hummm...... did I tell the OP that I spent 2 weeks in the hospital in 1974 after a disagreement between a tree and a dozer?? Or that I needed 157 stitches the year before that 'learning' chainsaw juggling? Never hurt myself with carpentry though**
No serious injuries since then - except tearing rotator cuff all the way thru 5 years ago taking one of my dump truck tires off the rim by hand --- silver lining? - DW did not complaoin when I bought an old single post pneumatic tire changer <G>
**Well, left hand thumb joint nowadays seems to ache once in a while for no known reason, except maybe the 40 or 100 times it's been hit with a hammer over the years - wish I could have afforded an air nailer back in the 60s and early 70s or a little giant for my forge.
all things have a "natural order"taking the time to think things out so that you have a grasp of that simple fact might be the key...I can assure you have more tools for that trade than any "skilled trades person" that has ever showed up on one of my jobsites... rest assured that anything your hands can do... my hands can also do...can I build cheaper than and at a higher finished quality level than any professional contractor I know? hell yes.. why? because it's mine... because it's my money... can contractor get a better price on material than me? hell no... contractors tend to go to a known source for whatever it is they buy... they buy from "smiths" because they know the guys at the counter by name... they have a relationship... they don't "question" the price they just "order" if they are working on T & M then any money they save buy'n costs them money.....maybe in the world of the average doctor thinking he can build his own house... then yes... 99% should skip it...
BUT... most people with basic skill sets and a willingness to work hard and the desire to build it right... can I believe save 50% building their own home...I can do it for less but then I'm special :)p
As I've said before, I'll not debate religion with a man. Believe what you wish.
There's an interesting statement, that you and others have made. In various forms, it's "I've never seen any tradesperson show up with all those tools." Perhaps not; I've encountered "carpenters who owned no tape measure, hammer, level, or square.
Aspertions aside, even the most dilligent tradesman only has the 'cheap' half of the tool picture. It is left to the contractor to supply the ladders, compressor, nail guns, chop saw, concrete vibrator, mixer, hole hog, etc. All those things add up - and if you're going to DIY, plan on spending serious dollars aquiring and securing them. (Yes, that Jobox is part of the tool budget).
Some have suggested various strategies to reduce this overall expense - resale after the job, bargain hunting, etc. - but those solutions have their limitations as well, and those limitations will affect the job.
Your post http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=122063.1 about your own experience building a shed explains why you have such a negative attitude toward DIYs.
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The first thing you have to understand is that I spent -literally- years dreaming of building a shed. I would often think this project through, adding to / changing the plan as I learned more.
I spent a lot more time thinking about the 'box' than the roof or the foundation, and never did plan the trim. In my dreams, I probably should have thought a bit more about the sheathing as well
I never gave the roof much thought, and this oversight shows.
I never thought about trim on the corners; light metal 'drip edge' worked well.
I just should have used a different technique and made a neater job of it.
Seems you attribute the same level of poor planning and lack of skills to others that you claim for yourself. Splains a lot.
Joe H
After seeing that post I actually give renostienke a lot of credit. It seems like he's aware of his limitations, and that's a good thing. Still, I agree with you and some others here, in that a person does have to be aware of projecting their strengths or weaknesses upon others in such a strong manner.While he shouldn't harp on the negative and tell us we're all wrong for doing what we did, us successful builders also have to tell of the difficulties involved in taking on a project of such magnitude.Those of us who have self-built with success have warned about the potential pitfalls with time and loved ones. I think the biggest thing is that once you commit to the project, you can't give up and "take a break." That's when a 1-year adventure can turn into a 7 or 10-year albatross.I forget who the original poster is, but it sounds like he has a plan, some help, and a capable and contributing wife. That's a good foundation to build upon.But the tool deal? With the exception of having a shelf full of routers, I probably have the same collection of tools that the average Joe has in his shop or garage.Saving money? Heck, according to the construction loan appraisal. I built a $540K (in 1995 dollars) house for about $220k total. The building lot cost me a third of that sum. I could have done it for less, but I really didn't cut any corners. I have a well built shell and a house full of trim and custom built-ins, etc.Eating up free time? Heck, I spent hours and hours a day working with my wife and two little kids. Working together. Learning together. Not staring at a TV with a null and void expression day after day and night after night. And I was still my son's cub scout leader, my daughter's girl scout leader, and my kids' coach in a couple of youth sports.Could have earned more money elsewhere? With the job I had back then, "I made what I made". Meaning there was no ability to work or earn more by working overtime. Why not pay myself with sweat equity?I paid off my house several years ago, I never could have done that without the sweat equity. And had I paid someone $540k to build me this house, due to the custom details inside I might have gotten the floor plan and the square footage, but I'd have a fraction of the interior details I have.Argh. Rambling again. Time for lunch.
I did not build a house, I build a shelter that I could not buy on the market, once I got done, friends was claiming, "oh my god you build a house by yourself" oh yes, I guess i did...I think everybody should have to build their own house, Not GC but actually drive the nails. Building a house is a hell lot easier that GC one, to convict others to do it your way.
I thank you for your support, and I truly admire those who have built their own homes.
If anything, my appreciation of the challenges involved increases that respect.
Still though ....
I recall tyhe day Home Depot came to my town. I asked a tile guy a year later what he thought, what with HD (there was no Lowes then) selling the materials and putting on 'clinics.' Had it hurt his business?
Not at at all, he said. HO's would botch the job, then call him to fix it. He got to charge for removing the old as well as putting in the new. As for materials, he paid a lot less, for better stuff, at the "real" supply house. He was a bit amazed that HD was able to get away with that.
I would later hear similar statements from nearly every trade. In my own work, my supply house charges me a lot less than HD!
A neighbor of mine is cheap to a fault. Why, he'll gladly snip his lawn with a pair of scissors, rather than buy a mower; maybe that's why he doesn't do it very often. In his life, doing his own car's "brake job" takes form 7-10 days. He does concede, though, that the times he has been forced to use a contractor that the work got done very fast. Near light-speed, by his standards.
Let's look at that shed of mine for a moment. Left out of the earlier story is that my neighbor built his shed two years before I built mine. His is quite a bit larger than mine, yet cost him 1/3 as much in materials. It also was never finished - his shingles lay off the edge of the roof, never having been trimmed, or having the trim installed - and his floor has collapsed twice. By comparison, my humble effort qualifies for "Modern Marvels."
More recently, I'm dealing with a finished basement that flooded. Let's just say that, had the HO followed some basic 'trade practices,' the damage would have been much less and the repairs much quicker.
These are not exceptional stories. Every contractor has similar ones. Once you get past the pretty finish, you find all the goofs, patches, and hack-work. So, if I doubt the ability of the average Joe to build his own home, it's because the average Joe has so thoroughly failed at far simpler jobs.
Like the Marine recruiter, I won't promise the DIY a rose garden. Those who can build their own home truly are the few, and have something to be proud of.
It seems like he's aware of his limitations, and that's a good thing.
But he assumes that same lack of skill for others with no knowledge of their skills or temperment.
Not everyone can do it, but that doesn't mean no one but a pro need apply.
I've hired lots of pros who didn't/couldn't do what they had agreed to do.
My last project I hired an electrician, one of the local pros only because I was in California and the local POCO wouldn't run the power in without someone on site to provide a meter base & box.
He did what he wanted, not what I had told him I wanted done. He put in what was basically a trailer post with a 4 breaker box despite exact instructions as to what I wanted.
He was a pro, a licensed electrician. What good did that do me when I got there a month later and it was done?
It's not all one way, but there are plenty of reasons for wanting to build your own house and saving money isn't always the prime motivator.
Flat work & drywall no more, but the rest is mine to do as long as I can.
Joe H
Joe, I agree with you. I was essentially saying that hey, it's a good thing that renosteinke recognizes his limitations, and it's fine for him to tell others that he tried something and it didn't work out well for him or others that he knows, so they should be aware of potential failure. But yeah, I agree, he shouldn't be so vociferous about it, post after post.Same on my end. I self-built and did it with success. But I'm not going to badger someone who's afraid to try building their own house into doing it. Nor would I continually dump on someone who's going to try to self-build and tell them it simply can't be done. I simply try to answer the poster's questions. Give out the pro's and con's and move on.
I can't speak to your exact situation, but the sparky may not have had a choice.
Code rules typically do not allow power to be connected to a building until all the wiring is done, devices installed, and the final electric is signed off.
While sometimes you can get the city and PoCo to work with you - I have often had them bend the rules a bit - they may one day decide 'no exceptions.' Then again, I've had the good fortune of having an exceptional relationship with the city.
"By the book," all you get is a power pole until the job is nearly complete.
He had a choice, no problem with County or POCO, he just did what he wanted instead of what we had agreed on.
He was a Pro.
Joe H
What about having a pro do something far outside his comfort level.. Ask a stick builder to build a timber frame for example and you have a situation where he is learning as he goes the same as a novice DIY.
Or even a Timber frame dealer asking him to build a timber frame from scratch when he normally a timberframe assembler..
I'm sure there are plenty of other similar situations. such as having a cement block wall mason build a ICF foundation.. OR asking an electrician to wire a house for computer control and sound system..
Just because a guy who works at the factory putting engines in trucks all day doesn't mean he's capable of building a racing engine..
frenchy, I didn't ask for anything "outside his comfort zone"
He knew what I wanted and we were agreed.
But he didn't do what he said he would, and I wasn't there to oversee his "Pro" work.
Joe H
Joe:
I guess I was answer a combination of posts when I wrote that.. not trying to suggest that you asked for anything wrong or what he shouldn't have been able to achieve..
I'm guilty of that and I need to watch myself.. I read a series of posts and then answer one peson..
I do apologize..
After I left CA & settled in Utah I came to the conclusion that finding anyone who would do what they promised was rare.
Weird place, if they didn't go to high school with you they weren't interested.
Joe H
Good Observation Joe.
I've been to other parts of the country that were like that.. Mostly due to poor education.. That doesn't mean they were dumb, simply poorly educated and didn't really understand things completely.. They knew their friends were in the same boat and wouldn't make fun of them. Thus the only ones they worked with were those they trusted to not know things the same way.
I see some of that here..
There are more than a few poorly educated people who have made a decent living in construction and assume that everybody else is wrong..
It's hard to not embaress them and thus cause a reaction where everything you say is automatically attacked. Simply because they don't want to ever admit they were wrong..
I've noticed well adjusted and intelligent people freely admit errors and often apologize for them..
>> BUT... most people with basic skill sets and a willingness to work hard and the desire to build it right... can I believe save 50% building their own home... <<
The thing I don't get is that it seems like many people here don't place value on their time. Sure, if you are doing something that you like then it is a good use of your time, but somehow when it is time to hand rake out the crawl space that has 18" deep ruts in hard clay, when it is time to put the damp proofing tar on the foundation, When it is time to shingle a 12:12 roof 2.5 stories up, when it is time to sand the drywall, when it is time to spend 300 hours painting, when it is time to etc etc, that isn't doing what I like. Sure there are parts of the process I do love but spending a significant portion of my life doing the above tasks, and probably not nearly as quickly as someone who does that particular task all the time isn't necessarily saving money (time is money). Just my opinion.
To me sometimes, it is better to do what you are good at to make money and then hire out some of the tasks.
Then you can spend the time with your family or doing the material takeoff for the next grunt job that you will hire out.
I have done the owner/builder thing and to tell you the truth I only did about 20 to 25% of the actual on-site labor. Oh - and it was a 9 month build for a fairly large and expensive house.
can I build cheaper than and at a higher finished quality level than any professional contractor I know? hell yes
I have never met Stan Foster personally, but have met Ron and Ron's met Stan so maybe could say I know him?. Thus would not be able to make that statement, as pretty sure I'm not capable ( due to being too impatient as a start) of producing the same high-end work as Stan, esp. not in the same amount of time.
Used my brother's welder (little HF wire feed) in IL last month to weld up a stair rail, brother commented he wished he could make as good of welds - hah! (when I KNOW mine are BAD - esp compared to pipeline welders and missile silo welders I've met)
you mistake "contractor" for "craftsman" or in stan and many craftsmans case... "artist"... I should have said I can get a pretty high level of finish for about 30cents on a contractors dollar...I really enjoy welding... rare a day goes by that I don't weld something... the last few weeks I've been welding the frame of my 20 x 168ft covered parking building... only get to spend a few hours a day on it... but by monday it will be ready to skin/roof... fun:)P
Now you are in for it, the contractors are going to be up in arms!! <G>
30ents is pushing it, my guess would be 20 cents <GG>
My richest kid bought himself a 400A Lincoln, dont think he ever has used it over 120A, I should maybe trade him???
Maybe ought to start a welding thread? All I know for sure is using a wire feed is like buttering bread after taking months of trial and error years ago to be able to stick weld 7018!
I can weld the hellout of 7018, my mig welding sucks.
i use alot of 6013 1/8 and 5/16 rods... because some how i ended up with 100's of pounds of them.. the alloy is fine and the flux isn't bad they just don't flow like a 6011 or penetrate as deep... but i can adjust because i have em... i have a little ranger8 that i keep in the back of a dedicated "welding truck" an old f250 w/300ci 6 with an automatic... it has at times sat for 5-6yrs and with a hot battery has never failed to start and move... it's the "welding truck" if you purpose stuff it makes it seem more important ... keeping it happy knowing it has a special role... when i need the mig i just load it in the truck and run it off the ranger if i'm out of reach of my longest power cord... the ranger is 214v on the 220 side... while off the pole i get 232v so even on a 100ft of cord the mig still does better on the grid power vs the gensetnot that i ever get off topic... but picked up a 44lb spool of 035 wire today... i've had mixed results with cheap wire for my mig (miller 150 w/tweeco gun) all they had was "made in china" mig wire... price wasn't bad $70 for 44lb spool... which usually lasts me better than a month... guess i'll know in the morning if the PRC wire is any good
p
I been welding over ten years with my miller 175 with 035 wire. i,m not good. Had to swap to 022 wire because that all I had. I have never welded 022 wire before. I,m good now, like a roll of dimes. My machine doesnt like 035
I agree! It took me a fair bit of time to produce good quality stick feed welds but inside 30 minutes witout referance to any book or expert help I was laying down perfect wire feed welds..
TIG took me longer simply because I did everything by trail and error.
Just out of curiosity would you have to have something like that covered parking building inspected? I would think so but do inspectors even know what they are looking at when it comes to welding? Obviously I know nothing about steel erection. Or would it be stamped and checked by an engineer or the like?
If not already familiar with it, you would be amazed at the records and weld samples that are required of pipelines and missile silo welding. I'm 100% positive I would never be able to weld a sample that would pass void testing. Some guys can do it literally blindfolded.
I'd be curious also of what Memphis requires.
My dad was a CWI, that how me and my brother got welding machine for xmas. Let just say, Those who can, do, those who cant, teach. My dad was a lousy welder
Friend of mine had a welding biz for many years.
Said his good guys could weld pipe without looking, just the buzz.
Once that buzz is going it's obvious when you move off the puddle, but I think my wire welder is much more forgiving of that small movement.
Next time I'm rich I'm gonna step up my equipment, maybe build my own missile silo too.
Joe H
I played with welding for a few years. Old dump trucks and the like. My room mate had a Linken trailer mounted welder. We also had the other basics like torch, grinders, etc. I'd say I was about 2 steps beyond the bird-sh** stage. I'm aware that welds are X-rayed, etc, but really have no idea what would go on in "normal" light commercial construction which I think might be the classification of what Pony Tail is doing.
I'd be curious also...:)p
Welding is something I've always wanted to get involved with. No clue why, but metalwork has always held a draw for me.I'm always threatening my wife with the idea of me building a shed out back with a small forge and starting up a little metal working operation. Fences, gates, purdy metal stuff like that. Who knows.When I was a kid I used to make horseshoes and shoe our horses and for a few other people's horses in neighboring towns.
I really enjoy working with metal.. more so than wood... and I do think of it as an art form...(as is fine woodwork) but something about bending and shaping steel maybe it's a superman thing...it's so easy to join metal... grind and polish it to where you are the only one that knows it wasn't always one... cut it short... you can add on to it.. heat it you can bend it shrink it stretch it... screw it up real bad... and you mount it and call it "art"go for it... I've thought about a forge... but if i can cut, bend, and punch... I'm good for now... it's rare for a week to pass that I don't weld up some kind of special tool to do one job... that would be much harder without whatever tool it is that i've made.. I don't know how people function without being able to...:)
p
I've thought about a forge
HMMM.. I may actually have something not in one of your warehouses?
Have a 400# Fisher anvil, and a 200# also, couple of smaller ones. Have not fired up the coal hearth for maybe 20 years, propane or even the acet torch is so much easier.
Bought 4 TONs of blacksmith tools (tongs, swages, etc.) for $137 at an auction from a shipbuilding shop in 1973, gave away over 2 tons of them one Sunday in 1999 or so. Put a notice in the old 'keenjunk' website that the barn would open at 11 AM PST superbowl Sunday.
Got home from church and there were 11 trucks waiting, some from 400 miles away!Most went away happy.
I remember your give-a-way or your post about it...but you know you are posting at like 3am? WHAT i know i don't sleep but....take care
p
but you know you are posting at like 3am? WHAT
Got up just before midnight PST, went to sleep at 7PM.
Problem to solve in Niort, France next week, heading for CDG tomorrow at 6 AM. Trying to get a leg up on French time (+9 hours)
>> but you know you are posting at like 3am? WHAT <<
His post shows 4:25 AM here.
Kind of interesting the way time works on these national (international) web sites. The time has to be displayed in the time zone of the person who is looking at the thread. Otherwise, for example, if I post a question at 5:00 PM (I'm on eastern time here), and he replies back to me 10 minutes later it would be 2:10 PM (his time is Pacific) making it look like he answered my question before I asked it. :-)
junkhound.... just might have answered before you asked...p:)
"making it look like he answered my question before I asked it."That used to happen to me all the time.Then I got divorced...It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
That's exactly my feeling. I drew my own plans, I did all my own work having watched others do it enough so I understood how to do it.. I did hire some help to do things which I needed more than one set of hands to do. There instead of looking for the cheapest I looked for people who had a good work ethic.. I would train them to do whatever needed being done.. and then provide them with all the safety gear plus take time to talk them through the project before hand.. Finally I looked them in the eye and asked if they had any questions. or any fears? I repeated my oft said mantra that I didn't want anyone hurt in the least and I wouldn't be upset at all if they asked for more information or expressed a fear.. I didn't want anyone to be reluctant to tell me something out of concern for their job or that I would think less of them. I'll bet I wasted an hour a day doing stuff like that.. On the other hand nobody ever got hurt and I never had to worry about being sued.
You are absolutely correct in that hard wok doesn't hurt a person.. I want to be the guy who slides into his grave yelling wheee! what a ride! rather laying on the coach while my arteries harden.
The only way to go is to build your own house.
Its 30 years later and im almost done!!!!
You're not alone.. Norm Abrahms from This Old House, wrote an article a while back how the house he built himself still lacked several critical finishing touches 11 years later!
I'm now coming up on 10 years myself and I still need to do the finished floor in much of the house window trim and paint several interior walls. Not to mention finishing the mater bathroom and the upstairs master bathroom.
Did you say you've got the plumber lined up? If not I could suggest one, and he might stockpile the labor trade for a few years down the road... which should give you time to recover from this project.
Can't wait to see it!!
Be forewarned that being owner builder is one of the toughest things on a marriage relationship.
Do not let the house take priority over the relationship. Take time for healing the inevitable rifts, come to consensus on the plans and dreams.
nuff said.
I always think of it as a good stress test for marriage. Sure some break up after they build, but none I can think of that wouldn't have succumbed to some other pressure. Does that sound a bit too Darwinian?
are you refering to that time when I hung the entry sconces 3" to dam# f##@$%' high????? :)
The next door neighbor to a current project of ours who is GC'ing his own home had a small heart attack and needed to get a stint put in. 1.5 years of trying to herd cats finally caught up to him.
The basement is full of water,
the stucco (1 month old) is all cracked,
the waterproofing company sprayed two feet too high on the fieldstone exterior
plumber killed 4 massive oak trees digging new sewer and water lines, (fine from city)
kitchen counters, backsplash and cabinet uppers had to be ripped out (receptacles in wrong place),
foundation excavation killed a large elm that fell on my clients house,(big insurance settlement)
gas company installed gas line where new driveway was to be excavated to lessen slope,
city has fined him for silt fence failure
Other than that it seems like the project is going well and this guy has plenty of money.
Bruce
Did the same on a large 2-1/2 story in 1974. 8 months start to move-in, actually had to move-in about 2 weeks before complete as we had given up the apartment we were renting. Did it while holding full time job but had 7 weeks accumulated vacation due to a business relocation.
Several comments:
Don't let cost saving be your only motivation for which tasks you take on personally.
Never do flat concrete yourself- too much risk if it gets ahead of you and you can't get a good finish. You've been warned!!
Hire the drywall. They can generally buy and hang cheaper than you can buy.
Carefully think-out your HVAC, Elec & plumbing then get fixed bids from the best sub you can find. Write your contracts so you will be responsible for change orders.
Someone suggested contracting out the roofing. I found that relaxing- though grunt work- after having to be thinking all the time on other tasks.
Be careful about tasks near the end of the project You will be tired and don't want that to show up as sloppy cabinet work.
I found it really rewarding doing the framing on what I designed.
I also learned to lay bricks even laid an all masonry fireplace 36' up on the face of the building. Burned & drew great. Took a long time but was after we were moved in so time wasn't critical.
I bought from the largest lumber yard in the city-they do mostly commeccial. I got small builder (less than 10 houses per year) discount. 30 day cash. I had to agree to full loads only but was allowed 2 small loads before they would start charging for delivery. Ordered 5 full pallets of precut studs, all the deminsion and sheathing on the first delivery.
Cash costs were about 20% of apprised final value. Did it all wit a construction loan from our bank. When arranging that they wanted to nit-pick my estimates so had to redraw the plans to take out about 400 sq ft. Didn't make a hill of difference in the actual cost.
Think about those rewards cards that you think of as a good deal. The supplier is propably being charged 1 1/2 -2% discount because you used them. Arrainge financing in advance, agree to pay cash 30 and get th supplier to take that discount off your price.
The other consideration, when done you will find co-workers learn how much was saved and want to do their own. I had to be very careful to not be encouraging them.
Good Luck!
Edited 11/11/2009 9:13 am ET by jimcco
On other consideration, when done you will find co-workers learn how much was saved and want to do their own. I had to be very careful to not be encouraging them.
Good point. I had some of the neighbors asking (mine is a teardown neighborhhood. A lot of rebuilding here). I just said my wife did all the bookkeeping and I didn't know (although I knew exactly what it cost). I think they took the hint.
Runnerguy
Nice to see more success stories popping up. The day we closed on the lot I bought a chainsaw and started dropping trees.I built the shell of the house with so few tools. When I framed I had a crappy $30 circular saw and a crappy $30 drill that I had owned for years. I think they were bought from Sears back when I was a teenager. A couple of hammers and cat's paws. A handsaw. Several tape measures, from 16' to 100'. I bought a Dewalt 705 miter saw, a 6' level, a water level, and a tool belt. Bought pump jacks for staging. During framing I bought a Dewalt 12v cordless drill for when I was up on the pump jacks. My framing schedule was three days to build the first floor platform and three days to build the walls. Then another three days for the second floor platform, 3 for the second floor walls, another 3 for the attic platform, 3 more to stick frame and sheath the roof. All platforms were TJIs covered with 3/4" T&G CDX. Managed to stay on schedule. Walls were 2x6. Took a week to shingle the roof, 3 days per side, roughly 22 sq total. I was carrying the bundles from ground level up to the roof, no boom trucks. 22 square, hand nailed, I'm not fast.When the shell was done, I bought a table saw. A couple of routers. A jigsaw. I picked up a sawzall but I should have bought that when framing. I remember the motor of my crappy drill burning out when drilling what was literally the last 2" hole I needed to drill for the central vac. Replaced it with a MKE 1/2" drill. My crappy circular saw motor burned out when up on the roof cutting off the sheathing overhang. Replaced it with a couple of circular saws, one I use on wood, the other has a diamond blade for cutting stone.I bought a few more routers when doing all the built-in cabinetry, routers were my extravagance. I have built-ins everywhere. Finally caved and bought a Thomas compressor and a couple of air guns for when I was trimming out.So as far as being a tool freak, I'm probably on the average to low end of the scale. I enjoyed the framing quite a bit. Probably the most soothing for me was running the electrical. Don't know why but I found pulling wire to be very relaxing. Stressful? I remember pulling the PEX for the radiant floor heat, after kinking the tubing in the first three joist bays and wondering if I'd ever get it right. We had no more kinks in the next 5000' of tubing pulled. Bad technique to start with.I remember the first real eye-popping "wow" was when I was laying the flooring. Was lost in lala-land while laying course after course, after finishing our somewhat open kitchen/living room space we stood back and the beauty of the brazilian cherry really surprised us.I thoroughly enjoyed designing and building the built-in cabinetry, the kitchen cabinets, built-in beds for the kids, the differing types of wainscot that I put in each room. I do hate painting. Once I get going I get lost in zen-land, but the thought of painting doesn't thrill me.Coffee time. Morning to all!
concrete flat work is easy if, you have a level grade to pull off of, you take your time and your help does not try to kill you with the screen board. Its all rhythm. take your time, breath, its all in the timing
Yeah, but you know what you're doing. It's scary stuff when you're inexperienced.
Dam Inspector..
What about me?
This was not only my first house but also my first time working with wood.. I planned each days work the night before as I feel asleep.. PLans? They were sketches submitted to building inspector! On the job I designed as I went..
ON top of that I used techniques that less than 1% of contractors have had any experience with (ICF's and SIP's)
Further instead of stick framing I did double timber framing. Something I've never ever seen or heard of anyone else ever doing.. What's more instead of having the timber framing done by a sub assembler I went to the sawmill, bought the wood, and did it all myself!
Every single timber frame I've ever seen done was done before hand and then just reassembled..
My point is that experiance doesn't guarantee perfection anymore than total lack of experiance isn't a sure failure.
I don't have the time to read this whole thread but here is something that saved me a lot of money. I tallied every expense and saved all my receipts and made a spread sheet with every nail and stick accounted for. I submitted that number to the tax assessor and that became my taxable amount for the property tax. One thing I didn't include is my labor which would have added another 200K to the cost. That is 200k that I will not have to pay taxes for every year. I did not invite the assessor over to have a look. Better not to see what that list looks like all assembled. My house is worth more than three times what it is assessed for.
I submitted that number to the tax assessor and that became my taxable amount for the property tax.
Then you're very lucky to live in a jurisdiction that isn't taxing the land or any vacant lot at all for that matter. I might look into buying just land at Lake Tahoe
But I'm sure they're paying for services somehow.
Runnerguy
The cost of the land was included in the spreadsheet too. Back in 1990 the cost of a lot at the lake is a tiny fraction of what it costs now. I paid 14K for my lot then. A similar lot now would run you about 300K. By the time I started building in 2002 the assessed value of the lot was about 17K. That is the number I used when I submitted the spreadsheet.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
Like I said, I'm movin' to Lake Tahoe!!
Runnerguy
not in this town, I did the same thing, and that fat dude with the beard at the county said, we tax according to what other houses in your area sell for, so if you build next to a million dollar house and you are close to sq feet, you will be access at a million dollar even if it only cost you 56 k.so I ask who do I appeal to. Me, well who your boss, me.
"and that fat dude with the beard at the county said..."
You've made my evening.
"we tax according to what other houses in your area sell for,"
That's pretty much the SOP for every jurisdiction in the country. They assess the property at what it would sell for in an arms length transaction.
I thought Callahans whole post had very little to do with "Saving money on building your own house" or tips for the guy and a lot to do with how stupid the Lake Tahoe government is. Who knows, maybe they're reading this.
Runnerguy
In my neighborhood there is a huge disparity in the relative cost of homes. It was originally subdivided in the 30s. Have you ever heard of Prop 13? Because of Prop 13 many Californians pay a profoundly lower property tax than their neighbors because the government is only allowed to raise the tax a small percentage per year. That is why my lot was taxed at a rate of 17K when the market rate was more like 250K at that time. The voters tied the hands of the tax assessors. I am sure that some of my neighbors who bought their homes 30 years ago are paying much lower property tax than me.
Because I documented every cent and submitted it to the assessor then that is what my house cost. Since I work for free then I did not include any wages for most of the build. They are not allowed to assess it at market rates. Only after I sell my house are they allowed to tax at a rate that is closer to the market rate.
Because I built my house and only subbed the plumbing, electric and drywall then my cost was profoundly lower. The bottom line is that I spent 200K and have a house worth at least 800K and every year instead of paying 16K in property tax, I only pay 4K at a 2% tax rate.
So as far as "Saving money building your own house", itemizing a spread sheet as you go can save you a pile in California.
Post Script..... If you build in California and do not document your true cost and leave it up to the assessor to estimate the cost of your home then you will end up paying market rate tax.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
So as far as "Saving money building your own house", itemizing a spread sheet as you go can save you a pile in California.
Thank you. That's precisrly why I was wondering how it helped the OP. He's in Oregon.
Runnerguy
Good luck! I think it would be a heck of a job but a nice thing in life to say you built your house. I bet you could save a ton of money if you are willing to replace that with your own time. If a professional wants $70/hour you can probably do it but it might take a few hours for his hour. Or in some cases you may be a 1:1 in which case you make off very well.
In my case I was a pro carpenter for almost 35 years doing everything from framing to finish. I subbed other trades but I cut every stick. I did all the excavation and foundation. I worked alone. I didn't hire a helper. It was a nice quiet job site for a good part of the time. I used wall jacks to lift the walls. I precut my whole roof on the ground including three dormers and hired a crane for four hours to lift the ridge beams and my rafters along with the plywood. I also did all the stone flooring and countertops. There is no carpet. I spent about 2 years full time. For a year and a half I lived in a trailer at the job. My wife worked at her job and we used the money from a construction loan for the first year. During the build we paid the construction loan with a second mortgage of our other home. Because it was during the run up to the crash the value of our other home had about tripled and we could get a decent second mortgage. It was at a much lower rate than the construction loan.
I designed the house and drew my own plans. I did all the legwork that a permit requires in the Tahoe basin. The permits and fees to various agencies was about 25K before I picked up a shovel. I had to work with an engineer while drawing the plans to spec dimensions and stuff. I probably saved 20K or so not hiring an architect.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
please explain how cricizing me makes you better.
You're Mr. "If you have to ask you shouldn't be doing it"
Remember Catskinner asking how to put in a 240V outlet for his welder?
You climbed his #### big time. He was gonna kill himself and others cuz he didn't know what he was doing.
Pointing out your hypocrisy, you seem to enjoy criticizing others but don't like it coming your way?
Joe H
Now now boys. I think you and renosteinke should kiss and make up. You know - show some man love. :-)
I have begun work on my own house which I also designed. The budget is tight of course so I am searching for every way to save money (without sacrificing comfort and quality.) We have spent much time working on a small, simple, efficient design but as we move past framing I am looking to save at every turn.
Hi jpeaton,
3 of us....myself, DW & DD built it all....4600 sq ft....1 1/4" wood floors, cathedral ceilings, covered wrapped porch, kitchen appliances, whirlpool tub, too many things to cover here but one fine home....hired help to help me pour the basement mono slab as it would cure to fast for me to do by myself and paid a couple of insulation installers because it was only $200 more than I could bu and do it myself......otherwise it took us 4 1/2yrs to frame, plumb, wire, hvac and finish to the point we could move in -- paid for it all out of pocket, less than $20 sq ft, excluding land cost, and everything is quality built....been here over 3 yrs and still not yet completely finished with the basement but it's progressing well and should be completed in the next 18 months.
So well built that we've yet to have a utility bill over $200 at 74 in summer and 70 in winter and I run a considerable amount of computer equipment due to work within that price range.
You've received a lot of good advice on savings, etc........my primary advice is...."don't do this yourself "just" to save $".......you'll hate every bit of it if you do......saving $ is awesome but if you are going to do "everything" yourself, it needs to be because it's your hobby, your joy, your pleasure......I'm not much for golf, not much for fishing although they are nice, but to me......any spare time I have home building tools in hand is time I can go without rest because it's simply the most exciting hobby I could ever ask for....I'm addicted......can't wait to finish everything on this house so I can sell it and do it all over again!
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Fantastic ceiling, good work!!
Fantastic ceiling, good work!!
Thanks junkhound.....every ceiling downstairs is being done on a similar theme...same 2x2 grid but different inset....you'd be proud....the ceiling tiles were a "free" salvage....simply had to go get them.......
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Pedro, I recall seeing the other photos before, but not the coffered ceiling. Excellent!
I recall seeing the other photos before, but not the coffered ceiling. Excellent!
Thanks Mongo.....it's a passion....the journey is 99% of the thrill....friends come by and say they bet I'm glad that part's finished....well yeah...only cause it means I get to start another room.........heheheh
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Nice ceiling indeed.Same one that's in the magazine this month by chance?'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Nice ceiling indeed.
Same one that's in the magazine this month by chance?
Thank ya FR......yep it's the same....opposite end of the built-in book case....she didn't even clip the wall stitchery...... "That ain't no Baptist Chuch pew lady".
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That was a gift from a dear friend that cooks up the best fried chicken, greens, chitlin's and lemon cake east of the Mississippi River mmmmmmm mmmmmm
I'm just a eatin' pack mule....had Mexican chicken caserole tonight, went to see a play at the local college then back here with a couple of homemade fried apple turnovers and a glass of ice cold milk....checking in on BT and then headed into the future game room to do a little woodworking before hittin' the hay.... ya'll come back now...ya hear....
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That office looks awesome... I can only dream of having a room like that. But $20 a sq ft? Being that you built it out of pocket, are you sure you didn't forget to put some stuff on the balance sheet...? :-)
Do you have that stained trim through-out the house?
That office looks awesome... I can only dream of having a room like that.
Thanks Matt.....it's been my dream too...funny, I'm the boss and the best office I've had up until now was a 9x11' shared with an employee, no windows and it was a central passthrough to another work area.
But $20 a sq ft? Being that you built it out of pocket, are you sure you didn't forget to put some stuff on the balance sheet...? :-)
I can see how that would be so easy to question......when we started....gosh it's been 8 years ago now?.....concrete was about half of todays cost...although that's a relatively minor expense of the whole project, every bit counts. It was also at this time that the Canadian tariff trade thing or something like that opened up the borders and lumber prices dropped like a rock but not much less than they currently are today due to the economy.
Even though we have a lot of sq ft, the design is very clean and simple with very minimal engineered materials. Overall dimensions were kept to 4' increments and rooms mostly to 4' with portions being 2' increments which in turn cuts waste. Deals like the flooring which required a "lot" of work....1 1/4" thick 12 1/2" and 13 1/4" inches wide only cost me $1 per linear ft....not per bd ft but running ft.....had been bought at auction and I bought a third of the lot.
All of the closets were drywalled using brand new perfectly good scraps from jobsites in the area...it's amazing what gets thrown out.....I've actually seen jobs where the crew will need a 7' piece, toss the 5' one out, then need a 4' piece and grab a whole new sheet.
The nice thing about building in this kind of time frame is being able to take advantage of deals as they surface. DW & I had picked out a specific tile for the master bath....quite a bit of it. It was $2.25 sq ft.....was at the big box HD one night, they had tile outside....probably hoping someone would steal it... $.33 sq ft....brought it home....DW says I thought you weren't going to get the tile for a couple of more months...I asked what she thought of the tile and she said she still liked it....so close she didn't even know it was different from what we had picked.....told her the price and she was thrilled.
All the ceiling tile for the downstairs was pulled out of a fairly new office building that they were gutting to turn into warehouse space.....just had to pick it up as they had already taken it down.
Headed to a clients office one day and I spot 3 partial spools of coax and a bunch of Cat3 piled up at the road in front of a shop.....the former tenants had wired the place themselves and left it behind when they moved out...the owner of the building didn't want it and said I could have it.....wired the house phones and cable/sat with it.....even used all the strands of the cat3 to wire all the alarm panels and switches with.....works perfect. Bought end spool runs of cat5e to wire for network throughout at half price.
These are $ savings that the typical get in get it done tradesmen can't afford the time to mess with.......junkhound would be proud!....and yes I've got a ledger full of details to prove the actual expenses <grinning and gratefully proud>
Do you have that stained trim through-out the house?
Of sorts....the main and top floors have simpler crown so as not to take away from the cathedrals there and the office has very nice wainscotting and multilayered chair rail whereas upstairs is a simple two piece built up chair rail. Upstairs has 6" baseboards as well and everything is stain grade. The only painted woodwork is in the sunroom where all trim is a crisp clean white. I built the full wrapped oak kitchen cabinets in place and they are stained as well. The dining room did get the full wainscotting treatment and built in corner hutches and the small tray ceiling in there is fully detailed in stained trim.
Still lots to do but I have all the materials already purchased and waiting for enough time to finish.
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What species is the stained trim?
What species is the stained trim?
Hi Matt,
The main and upper floor are red oak. The lower level is philippine mahogany and poplar.
Now here's the real trick to saving $ and nobody has yet to catch it on first inspection....I have to tell them what to look for......
I bought many sheet's of lumber core, cabinet grade veneer 4x8' sheets.
For those not familiar....cheaper tight knotted strips of wood are glued up to create a 1/2" thick 4x8 panel to which an 1/8" veneer of your choice is glued to both sides....almost like plywood but yet a bit different...it's reasoanbly light weight and nearly as reliable as plywood concerning twisting bowing etc......in some situations it's even better but not quite as strong.
Ready for the next step? Rip a sheet down 5 7/8"....you'll get 8 pieces or 64 linear ft. Now drop your saw stop to 1 1/4 or your taste and set the blade at 3/16". Run the boards back through creating a shadow line that starts to make it look like two pieces of trim. Now run that newly created top edge through a router table with your preferred bit...I used a typical ogee bit with a roller sleeve which created a nice radius and a shadow line where the veneer transitioned to the white wood.
Apply stain and clear, bevel cut the ends as needed to fit and use a touch up stain marker on the edges of the trim. A little poly paneling glue on the backs, a little yellow carp glue on the joints, an 18 gauge nailer every so often, some touch up furniture sticks and for 75 cents a foot you have beautiful 6" oak baseboards or whatever veneer you choose.
I changed veneers downstairs as I wanted a bit different look and feel there without stepping too far away from the floor above. Now upstairs, anything at eye level, or close up such as kitchen cabinets, I still used solid hardwoods......red oak blended to the red oak veneer w/whitewood core.....poplar with the mahgony downstaris.
The angles and router bit I used completely disguise any transitions in the veneer panels thus I end up with the look of stain grade premium hardwoods with better stability and looks incredible.
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And, the floors are Australian Yellow Knotty Pine and I wish I had bought the entire bundle when I had the chance but building out of pocket left me without that luxury at that time.
Questions?
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I sure can believe that $20.00 a sq.ft. You'd be amased what your costs can be if you work outside the box..
Wood I can buy at a sawmill for less than a dollar a bd. ft. costs more than $10.00 if I bought it from a lumber yard or hardwood merchant.. Even that can reduced several ways.. I think the ultimate deal I ever got was a whole bunch of fiddleback maple which can sell for upwards of $400 a bd.ft. I only paid 10 cents a bd.ft.
My whole house is built with hardwood (including joists and subflooring) and it cost me less than 50 cents a bd.ft.
While that wood is green and rough, drying it costs nothing but time. Planning and shaping it costs only a few pennies worth of electricity.
Foundations can be built for a fraction of what contractors charge (in my case 1/3). Plumbing and wiring is only the costs of the raw materials.
Now none of that is something you can do without some great effort but if you fail to charge yourself for your labor and look diligently for the best deals.. $20.00 a sq.ft is no big deal..
I've read every post (it's over 100 now) and even added my two cents...
the number one thing I preach is "the natural order of things" you just have to draw, plan, picture the order in which things need to be done... you can very by this a little but not much...
in building there is a nature order that must be followed... knowing this will save you time money and grief
there really are only 2 places you can save money in building your own home.. in buying and in labor... thats it ... just like in most merchant businesses your money is made in buy'n... same deal in building... smart buying can cut your costs by 90%... never ever buy anything without asking for a better deal even if you are already pay'n 10 cents on the dollar... ask for discounts... ask for freebies "if i buy 10 will you give me one?"
anything you don't spend is money you don't have to earn... if you pay $50cash for a $100 new sink off craigslist... you saved far more than $50 for starters sales tax here is close to 10% so that's $60 saved but if you go deeper... if you are in an average tax bracket you would have to earn about $150 to purchase that sink for $110 retail... if you put that $110 on a 30yr loan it'll cost you $300 to pay that $300 you wold have had to earn $450... so you didn't save $50... you kept from have'n to earn $450... maybe far more
never walk into lowes/HD without a coupon... I don't care if you are spending $20 it's not the $2 you save (refer to the above) charge it on a card that you receive rewards on...
on my condo project if in my mind i budgeted $70 for a faucet... I didn't want a $70 faucet I wanted a $300 faucet for $70... thats where ebay comes in...
oh and around here if you change your coin change for amazon (or others gift cards at those change machines they give you a $50 gift card for $40 in change... it's worth getting 4 rolls of quarters at the bank drop'n em in and getting a $50 gift card since they have free shipping...
make it a game...
p
Interesting (and valid ) take on saving money. Previously I saved money because I wanted value. When you put it as you did in light of interest it becomes even more amazing..
Now I have to play a little devils advocate here.. When I sold my first house I "made" $71,200. But since inflation had more than doubled since I bought it at $27,800 I really didn't "make" any money. Merely stayed ahead of inflation..
The same with this place. I only paid $107,000 25 years ago but with inflation and what I've invested in this place I've only made slightly more than the value of my labor out of it..
To try to simplify what I'm saying is that if we assume a mortgage will triple the cost of the home.. are we really increasing it that much when you consider inflation allows us to pay back the loan with inflated dollars?
The formula is in our favor if inflation is greater than the rate of interest and worse if interest is greater than the rate of inflation..
Another thought..
Taxes!
Interest paid on mortgages is tax deductible. Thus reducing the tax burden of our income.. That calculation should really enter into the whole interest cost analyzes
Edited 11/15/2009 8:59 am ET by frenchy
I agree that there are many factors at work...wages always seem to lag inflation...I think I was green far before the term was coined... Use what is there, use what is already manufactured, reuse, re purpose ect... which all leads to in the great hope.. of not having to work as to pay for something that is long gone... ie: appliances put on a 30 year note when chances are they won't last 15yrs... so you have 15years of paying for something that you no longer have...With looming inflation and gas sure to reach $4 soon... whats the answer? incurre debt now? so that you pay it back with lesser valued dollars? is this the reason behind the tightning of credit now? so that they aren't lending only to be repaid with the discounted dollarjust places to think...
p
Well I think I sure agree with you with regard purchasing declining assests like you pointed out.. a tank of gas, appliances, vacations etc.. on credit.
However, Since a home is built on land that is an appreciating assest (because the population continues to grow and they aren't making any more of it)
I believe a home is an excellant place to go into debt on..
Yes wages do lag inflation but not by 30 years! I know when I got out of the Navy I was making $35,000 a year which was fantastic wages back then.. recently I was earning 6 figures which was still good wages.
I'm not that differant from a lot of people.. I'm fiscally conservative and saved enough so that here more than 2 years since my last paycheck I'm currant with all my bills..
Most of the people I know are in a similar position.. There are exceptions but they are the exception, not the rule..
That's a good thought, and one thing I've been teaching my kids for years. You want something that's priced at $10? Well, you have to earn $14 to spend that $10 item.In my case, back when I built I had no computer access, plus I had just moved across the country to the northeast so I hadn't been stockpiling deals to be installed later. I'd get small discounts here and there, but nothing substantial.Back then the place I got most of the framing lumber from had just opened up a place about 25 minutes from where I was building. They were eager to move material. Plus they were drumming up their charge card business, so I could usually get everything knocked down 10% by asking and then they'd knock an extra 10% off if we billed it to the card. Everything that we got from them was of good quality, and the workers were eager to appease us with great service.The only place I really recall saving big in materials was with the flooring. Back then brazilian cherry and bamboo wasn't as "in" as it is today. Through a series of phone calls my wife created a couple of good deals. We bought brazilian cherry direct from an exporter for a little less that $1 a sqft, they were looking to set up a northeast dealership and wanted an installation somewhere in this area. TimberGrass bamboo, which is now Terragren, made a deal with me. They had a refused shipment stuck in storage out here. I bought it for pennies on the dollar. I used the ~900 sqft I needed and we resold the rest at an excellent profit.When I was doing stonework outside, I'd buy in bulk, I'd buy a container, use what I needed and resell the rest. I got the materials for around 4000 sqft of stone patios (bluestone and slate) for "free" that way.I think the only place I really "saved big" other than pure labor was in making the cabinets myself, and all the built-in cabinetry in the rooms. The thing that always cracked me up when doing cabinetry is that the knobs, hinges and drawer slides to "finish" the cabinetry cost more than the 3/4" birch ply to make the carcasses and the poplar for the face frames, and the materials to make the drawers. I could have saved several thousand dollars by using lesser hinges, less expensive cabinet pulls, and cheaper drawer slides.When it came to finish details, my wife had strong opinions as to what she wanted. So we pretty much we paid full retail or at best got 10% off when buying appliances, plumbing and lighting fixtures, etc, things like that. So we skimped and saved in some areas but were somewhat frivolous in others.But in the end it's all good, it worked for us.
I loved Richard Nixon.
Had the good fortune to be needing my framing lumber when Nixon instituted wage and price controls in '72 or so to counteract the Johnston 'guns and butter' start of inflation aftermath. Way before I started building 'strategic reserves'.
Anyways, the yard was told by the feds they needed to comply, INCLUDING the average prices charged on their last wholesale delivery.
#1 2x10s, etc, about everything needed for $64 MBF, bought all they had left of the last of the last trainload. Recall the price a few weeks before was over $130 MBF.
You gotta take it when you can get it!My Dad worked in a drop forge shop, they'd get material shipments in from overseas and domestic. Kind of like you and Frenchy were talking about, we built all our outbuildings (horse barns, hay storage barns, etc) out of reclaimed lumber. He got it all for free, but I spent hours and hours pulling nails and sorting boards.Nothing like growing up with a framing hammer in one hand and a cat's paw in the other.
Good for you on the design/build project! It's a blast to see your own designs come to life and as for saving money, labor costs are such a huge percentage of the total that you can't help but come out ahead. (Well, unless you make good money doing some other line of work which you can't do on account of you're working on your house).
It's going to require a lot of time, especially if you're not in construction, but you'll learn a ton, (especially from mistakes), and I can't think of anything more rewarding.
I've been building stuff for 35 years now and I've done just about every trade there is associated with the building of a house. Still, there are some jobs I prefer to leave to folks who do it day in, day out. (Taping and floating come to mind). It's just way more cost effective.
Have fun!
(Oh, also, if you don't know concrete you'd best leave that to people who know their way around the stuff. You won't have enough time to learn how to work it before it sets up, heh, heh).
unless you make good money doing some other line of work which you can't do on account of you're working on your house
Hi sunsen,
This may sound like I don't agree with you.....in fact I actually do....in general but here's another spin on being able to earn more in another job or not.....
I can absolutely earn more at my profession than I'd pay a skilled tradesman, even after I pay taxes on earnings, it's not that I'm worth more, simply what market value aspires to......however I'd be paying a psychiatrist far more than I earn doing my profession that many hours.
See, in rough hours I can go do my work 8 hours......work on my home 8 hours which is entirely therapeutic.....sleep 8 hours and start all over again the next day refreshed and ready for all the challenges that come from the next 16 hours.
Or, even another way to look at it......those 8 hours on the house are like my FIL's 8 hours of fishing only the end value is different.......
I buy $100 building materials, work 8 hours, I now posses $200 of construction value that is resalable.
FIL buys boat, spends that same $100 on insurance, gas, bait & tackle, fishes for 8 hours. At best he's got a few pounds of fish.....at worst, no fish & bad sunburn plus the boat has been used and is worth less now.
We both had the time of our lives for 8 hours......you do the math <grin>
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I should have added that building your own house most likely way more fun than any job you might have so my comment on "cost/benefit analysis" is probably irrelevent, heh, heh.
You can do eight hours and then do eight hours more when you get home?! My hat's off to you.
when I started building my house, I had 60k in the bank, when I got done, I had 62k in the bank 18 months later. The money I usually spent going out, bars, dirt truck, was buying 2x, drywall, concrete.
I'm not exactly sure how you managed to come out ahead, but I'd sure like to work a little of that magic as I'm spending an awful lot on concrete these days, heh, heh. I have to agree though, it's a better investment than buying beer!
You can do eight hours and then do eight hours more when you get home?! My hat's off to you.
Hi sunsen......well there are times that my work is strenuous to the extreme....that's about once a month.....the rest of the time I'm driving to a client's office or hanging around my office computer doing day to day keyboarding......as a result there is this collective energy that needs to go somewhere when the day is done.......so it's either lounge in front of the tv and gain more useless energy or work on the old homestead.
So all in all it's not like I typically work 16 hours a day bustin' rocks but I do occasionally have to still work 34 hours straight through......that's every couple of months and I don't do any woodworking when I finish those.......well then again I usually saw logs for about 12 hours then........
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Actually if you enjoy it (as I did) the 8+ hours I spent building were the best time of my life.. the joy of achievement, personal satisfaction, and physical effort were such a change from what I had been doing for many decades that it was totally theraputic.
On the weekends I actaully objected to stopping for lunch and sleep. Like a Little boy working on my house was sooooo much fun I hated to be called in..
I hear ya Frenchy!
It's funny, last week I got an inspection on my personal house I'm building in a part of the state north of where I normally work. The inspector always asks me if I'm still working alone, (obviously a few more requirements kick in when you start hiring help). I explained that for me, working up there, in that spectacular setting, is like a hobby. When I build stuff down in the bay area I have to hire people and deal with everything that entails. And I really don't want to turn my hobby into work. The folks up there think I'm crazy though, for the size and scope of the work I've taken on, especially being just one guy. At least I'll have something to keep me entertained for the rest of my life, lol!
The folks up there think I'm crazy though, for the size and scope of the work I've taken on, especially being just one guy.
Hi sunsen...I must have missed the sq ft you're building but I've got a neighbor that built his nearly by himself.....his wife dropped by a few hours every couple of weeks....kids didn't do much more than sweep and pickup stuff.....he had an uncle's help for two weeks while framing.....that's it....... 11,800 sq ft not including the 3 car attached garage, workshop and storage.
So hang in there, he can do it...so can you!!!
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Well, that's over twice the size of mine, but trust me, what he built and what I'm attempting are two different entirely different deals, lol!
My neighbor is an electrician. We agreed on a price, I built his deck, privacy fence, set some doors for agreed price,(30 per hour ) We didn't have to keep track for even trade in our barter. When I get to my remodel he will do the electrical for same hourly.
Do they still do that? I used to get the free paint on 2nd south, under the west seattle bridge, but I heard they closed.
Have not been there for 8 mo or so, did hear they quit having LateX paint though.
I'll need to google to see if it is still operating, but the same one you said, under the bridge.