Looking for techniques and alternatives for a leach field design at a sandy beach location in northern California (Stinson Beach).
We’ve had some crazy estimates for what is a small cottage and we’re trying to identify alternatives that may give us a cheaper and simpler solution. There is plenty of land and the existing septic tank is OK, it’s the leach field that has failed.
Looking for experience of other folks in building system in high-permeability zones near the ocean or lakes, and if you know any contractors who can take on a job in NorCal, please PM me.
Thanks, Joe
Replies
Well, first you need to find out what kinds of systems are permitted. At the very least you probably need a sand filter between septic and leach field. Or a more elaborate "mound" system may be required.
How does a leach field fail in high permeability locations?
They don't - unless HO has dumped all kindsa crap other than sewage into the septic, such as garbage disposal, etc.
Likely your first mistake was telling anyone about it vs. buying yourself a small backhoe and fixing it yourself, and disconnect the disposal unit an quit flushing diapera down the toilet.
Once your AHJ gets their finger in the pie, you have unlimited liability, including having the cottage condemed.
This is what I did.
Many years ago when I was a kid, My folks baught this old house by a lake in southern California. They were so excited and I thought they were crazy it was a really old house back in 1972 it wasnt a house it was a cabin. Shortly after we moved in to the old lake house the toilets didnt flush. We had a decriptated septic system and Dad installed a new one with a new giant concrete tank and a new leach field.
Everything worked great for 30 years or so, then the folks were haveing the tank pumped regularly. It was time for a new leach field. My folks were older at that time and I had a family of my own just down the road so I took on the project. I worked with the guys that did the pumping and we started on a Friday and finished Sunday night, because I didnt want the inspector involved in this project. I generally have zero issue pulling permits and find its best in the long run to be on the up and up. But in this case the building department had a moratoium on increaeing any square footage without being on the sewer system that wasent installed for years to come. Needless to say I avoided the septic inspectors and quickly handled the issue. That advice from the other member is probably very good if it is a rual area and you dont make a summer project out of it. Get it done in a few weekend days.
This is the part about the solution...... when we installed the new leach field we installed 2 of them. One in this area of the driveway and the other in a differnt area of the driveway. We ran a plastic pipe out of the tank and then a large PVC valve in a sprinkler box under the soil.
This way it would allow the leach area number 1 to do its thing over time and if and when it wasnt functioning as desired we could dig down to the plastic box with the PVC valve and switch over to leach field number 2.
it was a briliant solution, The cost of the second addtional leach area is nominal. some pipe, some gravel. the real cost is the back hoe and the operator. He dug the entire 2 leach fields in a matter of a few hours. and dropped the rock in the trenches in a matter of minutes. the last day he finished with the gravel. replaced the dirt. leveled it all out and spread the remaining rock in the driveway. That back hoe did the work of a dozen men in a tenth of the time.
We used this large gravel, not that 3/4 crushed rock they used on road base. it was larger. it worked great. The lake house was on a fairly sandy soill and the leach field was on the far side of the house away from the lake so nothing would make its way to the water.
I never needed to switch over to the second leach field, After 25 years on the new leach field, I sold the Old lake house that i had lived in since i was 6 or 7 years old, watched my parents grow old in and never did i regreat installing the 2nd unused leach field.
The grand plan was this. Use area number 1 for x amount of years and then switch over to area number 2 for x amount of years. Then if any problems in area number 2, we would switch back to a area number 1 and it would be ready for anouther x amount of years.
Hire a good back hoe guy, it can acctually be pretty reasonable if he is not busy at that time. I have no idea what that project cost way back that many years ago, but i do remember that it wasnt crazy or un reasonable and it was done in a few days.
Septic systems get a bad rap, but accutually i think they are great. if they have good ensime action and a good leach field they dont need to be pumped for many years. They can be trouble free. Sure dont flush some particular items into them and install a larger tank than you think you need and a larger leach field than you think you need. as time goes on more showers are taken, more loads of laundry, more dishes, more people flushing.
The house i have now is on sewer and pretty much a no brainer, but to be honest. I would rather live on well water with a septic system in a rual area on a lake.
Good luck,
Joe
Of course, you're using that setup incorrectly. You don't wait for the field to fail, but switch every year or so, so that the unused field can recover. And, of course, you don't wait for the field to fail before you pump the tank, but pump that about once a year, whether you have one field or two.
This is what I did.
Many years ago when I was a kid, My folks baught this old house by a lake in southern California. They were so excited and I thought they were crazy it was a really old house back in 1972 it wasnt a house it was a cabin. Shortly after we moved in to the old lake house the toilets didnt flush. We had a decriptated septic system and Dad installed a new one with a new giant concrete tank and a new leach field.
Everything worked great for 30 years or so, then the folks were haveing the tank pumped regularly. It was time for a new leach field. My folks were older at that time and I had a family of my own just down the road so I took on the project. I worked with the guys that did the pumping and we started on a Friday and finished Sunday night, because I didnt want the inspector involved in this project. I generally have zero issue pulling permits and find its best in the long run to be on the up and up. But in this case the building department had a moratoium on increaeing any square footage without being on the sewer system that wasent installed for years to come. Needless to say I avoided the septic inspectors and quickly handled the issue. That advice from the other member is probably very good if it is a rual area and you dont make a summer project out of it. Get it done in a few weekend days.
This is the part about the solution...... when we installed the new leach field we installed 2 of them. One in this area of the driveway and the other in a differnt area of the driveway. We ran a plastic pipe out of the tank and then a large PVC valve in a sprinkler box under the soil.
This way it would allow the leach area number 1 to do its thing over time and if and when it wasnt functioning as desired we could dig down to the plastic box with the PVC valve and switch over to leach field number 2.
it was a briliant solution, The cost of the second addtional leach area is nominal. some pipe, some gravel. the real cost is the back hoe and the operator. He dug the entire 2 leach fields in a matter of a few hours. and dropped the rock in the trenches in a matter of minutes. the last day he finished with the gravel. replaced the dirt. leveled it all out and spread the remaining rock in the driveway. That back hoe did the work of a dozen men in a tenth of the time.
We used this large gravel, not that 3/4 crushed rock they used on road base. it was larger. it worked great. The lake house was on a fairly sandy soill and the leach field was on the far side of the house away from the lake so nothing would make its way to the water.
I never needed to switch over to the second leach field, After 25 years on the new leach field, I sold the Old lake house that i had lived in since i was 6 or 7 years old, watched my parents grow old in and never did i regreat installing the 2nd unused leach field.
The grand plan was this. Use area number 1 for x amount of years and then switch over to area number 2 for x amount of years. Then if any problems in area number 2, we would switch back to a area number 1 and it would be ready for anouther x amount of years.
Hire a good back hoe guy, it can acctually be pretty reasonable if he is not busy at that time. I have no idea what that project cost way back that many years ago, but i do remember that it wasnt crazy or un reasonable and it was done in a few days.
Septic systems get a bad rap, but accutually i think they are great. if they have good ensime action and a good leach field they dont need to be pumped for many years. They can be trouble free. Sure dont flush some particular items into them and install a larger tank than you think you need and a larger leach field than you think you need. as time goes on more showers are taken, more loads of laundry, more dishes, more people flushing.
The house i have now is on sewer and pretty much a no brainer, but to be honest. I would rather live on well water with a septic system in a rual area on a lake.
Good luck,
Joe
"Crazy?"
To the defense of the contractors ....
First, are you sure you're comparing apples to apples? It's possible some of the quotes included removing the contaminated soil, disposing of it properly, and replacing it with clean earth. That's a little bit more than digging a ditch in the dead of night.
What's wrong with making money? Do you work for free?
More to the point, it's no easy thing running a business. Apart from the usual business expenses, the various government-imposed costs easily exceed what it takes to simply run a business. Just remember this: when it comes to government, you have no one to blame but yourself.
You think health insurance is a good thing? Workman's Comp? Unemployment insurance? A retirement fund? Well, those things all cost money. That money comes from the customers. Period.
Now, I don't know about you, but ..... did you ever hear of "cholera?" Yellow fever? E. Coli? Those are just a few of the nasty things that are fostered by improper waste disposal. Every summer we hear of beaches being closed because of 'bad' germs in the water. Where do you think they come from? From waste systems. There are centuries of history behind most codes.
So, maybe the 'simple' septic system isn't so simple after all.
California is famous for two things: excessive government, and former Californians who want their new homes to adopt all the nonsense they fled from.
I have seen several leach fields replaced here (sandy soil) and in every single case, the real problem was in a failure between the tank and the distribution box that feeds the field. They always seem to find this after they start digging the new field so the homeowner agrees it was probably "about time anyway". I would poke around with a shovel before i called the back hoe guy and kinked that "permitting" tar baby.
And that is because sludge built up in the septic tank until it began to flow into the leach field.
On mine, the soil around the collector box subsided and the pipe between the box and the tank parted. It is one of those "the worse it gets the worse it gets" things
some clarification...
The quotes are coming in upwards of $70K which seems a bit crazy compared to what I've seen quoted on the boards for similar work. I agree that taking the job on ourselves would take it down but the local authorities got involved and the cottage got tagged so we have to go with guys that do this for a living. Just want to pay a fair price - absolutely believe in people making a living doing this so don't get me wrong but it is under 500 sq ft of cottage. How much leach field do we need?
And we have not figured out why it failed although it was single field system and it is very likely that some of the renters were negligent in terms of what they put down the drains. There is no garbage disposal but people do flush weird things down the toilets.
and then there are the owners...
The primary owners are two eighty-something-year-old ladies who feel that things last forever and haven't invested a whole lot into the cabin. Yes, they got what they deserved but it is leaving a mess for their heirs who include my wife. So we're literally trying to figure out the simplest way to dig out of this mess. The remote location of the cabin is also a problem but it is only 20 miles from a major West coast city - if I mention the actual location the spam filter kicks in.
Joe
The only switch I have the ability to throw should have enabled you to post anything you can type or link to.
are you sure the city name is doing something? Spam filter should not be fuck 'n with you.
and the location is...
Well I've been able to post the cost, the square footage, and let's see if it will let me post that the location is Stinson Beach.
BTW, the permeability IS the problem because you don't want raw sewage flowing through the sand into the ocean. So it has to be just slow enough to allow the microbes to do their thing. This is a real problem there and you can find references to it all over the web.
re:
'it's the leach field thats failed'
So, now did you know t;his, AHJ find excessive coloform bacteria in a random beach sample? OR?
how do we know it failed?
The "untreated effluent" was bubbling up through the top of the leach field from whence it could follow gravity to the beach.
So the field is probably clogged with crud that overflowed the tanks because of insufficient pumping.
As I said, the little old ladies really didn't look after the place as they should have and the resulting mess is a problem.
The problem is that maybe one person in 10 maintains their septic system properly, so even though a conventional tank and leach field might theoretically work, historically we know it will fail, with bad consequences in such sensitive areas.
There are better systems such as mound systems for such environments, but they require even more maintenance, so jurisdictions are more and more not allowing ANY new septic system in sensitive areas. There is no good answer other than a community sewer system.
Down her in south Florida our soil is nothing but sand but when we had the septic replaced we had to haul in drain sand for the leach field. The whole thing, sewer pump, 300' of pipe, the new tank and drainfield cost $5,000.00. You're paying the price for living in northern CA.