Stairbuilders! What goes on the prints?
Chief Architect’s 2D drafting capabilities are about equal to anything out there, so that the hard working designer or architect can detail out anything imaginable. That is not the issue, I believe. The complaints seems to center around the tools that are there to model the stuff in 3D, or the lack of tools.
I take the opposite view of those that say we need better tools for 3D, and it is because I am (guessing, actually) that much of the staircase building that takes place nowadays in big-ticket work, gets done with the architectural plans only showing some basics, and then the stairbuilder’s art and capabilities take it from there.
So, tell me, if you are into doing expensive staircase work, what do the builder’s plans show you? How interested are you in seeing that a 3D rendering shows things exactly as they are to be?
Replies
I think you are being requested
Input from Stan would be really valuable, and I hope he replies.
He seems to be doing his photo essays over at JLC now, due to the "cap and trade" policy that came about here as regards pic space.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
If can draw it in 3D, then I know it can be built exactly like I want it to be. Easy enough to make 2D sections from for the prints.
As a stair builder, I want everything you can give me, or leave me alone and you'll get what I come up with on my own. Most stairs on prints look like and are detailed like afterthoughts. It's amazing to me that so little thought goes into something that's usually the showcase.
And, it's always so satisfying to see some high priced twit take credit for some poor, dumb carpenter's magic...
hard working architect/designers that only want to show the bare minimum, how do you those two together?
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Gene- If I had the finish floor to finish floor measurement...that is the best start. Then the actual stairhole size...which usually is given.
The 3d drawings are necessary...but the most important to me is that the architect should design the stairway first...making sure the walking line run is at code...or 10.00" and then design the home around the stairway. Its almost always that the home is designed first...then the stairway gets what ever the foyer was squeezed down to. This creates creativity on my part...winders...extra cut in steps at the top....extra degrees added to make the walking line large enough. I went to a huge home for Congressman Tim Johnson several years ago to layout out a circular stairway. No way a circular one would fit. I had to come up with building my first elliptical stairway....and it fit and met the walking line requirements.
Stan
I find it interesting that with only one exception, most are saying that all they want on the plans are the essential spatial specifications, no details please, and they will take it from there.
Stan Foster is one of those saying this, and Stan certainly has shown us plenty of photos of his completed works, for us to be able to verify his craft and ability.
Here is a sequence of photos that show staircase work, and in every case, all details were explicitely drawn and dimensioned by designers or architects. Nothing was left for the stairbuilder to do, except execute with top-flight craftmanship, per the prints
If you have photos of what you have done, using no plans but instead your own creativity, please post a pic or two.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
I use 2d Autocad LT, but wether I'm building the stair or someone else is, I usually detail pretty much everything. Rise, run, overhangs, trim details, baluster spacing, newel post detail.... Much faster and easier figuring it out on the computer screen and having built quite a few myself I know what's needed and what's not. I don't worry about balustrade spacing, unless newel posts are close together and then I do make sure it will look right. Here's one I drew and built: http://harborsidedesign.com/portfolio.cfm?cat=6&row=13&photo=15&img=85.
In retrospect the posts and rails are too small, but it's a very tight 3-story beach house and I was going for a lightweight look. Went just a bit too far I think. It was really tricky to figure out how to wrap the rail around an open stair for two stories and have everything work out. I don't know how I, or any other average trim carpenter, could have made it work without drawings.
Mike, is that "someone else" that will use your highly detailed prints, known to you? And, what will be your involvement in a job for which you did the prints for the staircase, but someone else is doing the build?
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Usually the builder is our construction company, but occasionally it's an owner/builder, sometimes it's one of our competitors, and once in a great while it's for someone in another state we never meet. We are available to answer questions in any case but we charge by the hour.
When it's our own guys building we are quick and dirty with the prints, not worrying too much about formatting and such. When we know it's going out to someone else, or it's something the owner needs to see and understand, we'll spend extra time making the drawing pretty.
I would just be happy with the stair well dimension on the plan
and correct...in 2d
Well, I'v enever had to do more detailed drawings than for "compliant" stairs for public facilities. For TAS clearance, you have to to show handrail extensions, heights from risers, balluster and rail dimensions, nosing and pitch on the treads and risers, even clear width between rails. And it is redoubled for wooden stairs.
(Much easier to "dash in" the area, and have the contractor's vendor supply shop drawings--not cheaper, but easier.)
That's for commercial/public work. Residential seems to be all over the place. Plan shops still cranking out "nn risers up" and giving framing-to-framing dimensions in 2d locally. Both the Cities here are starting to lean on the plans to show IRC compliance, but mostly that windes up being a note that the riser & tread dimensions are rr & tt and in compliance with IRC nnnn to match the one in effect in that City.
Multi-family housing seems to be wavering back and forth between those standards.
Here's a rail setup that I did a couple of years ago. HO didn't want the usual, gave me an old garden gate whose pattern she liked, this is what I came up with.
Gene, I've never shown anything but total rise and number of treads and a cross section cut. that does not show every detail, only the shape and check headroom. As a craftsman, I prefer to work out the details on site.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You said, "I've never shown anything but total rise and number of treads and a cross section cut. that does not show every detail, only the shape and check headroom. As a craftsman, I prefer to work out the details on site."
But aren't you doing construction drawings just for yourself and whatever few subs you use? Plus of course the client so he or she can understand the scope?
What do you see in the way of details, when an architect or designer does the plans?
In the building of the model using your software, do you adjust the staircase build for the finished floor thicknesses at bottom and top of stairs? In the cross section, will the stairs be shown true, using those dimensions? Will ceiling finish thickness be accounted for in the lines that define the staircase opening above, so that in a truly tight situation, looking for the 6/8 min headroom, all things are considered?
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Take a look at the attachment.This is a 110 YO staircase that was designed by the same architect who did five houses on this island back then. I have seen all his work ( studied him in fact) and have totally rebuilt and renovated one of them. In the course of adding to that other, we built a very similar staircase.his plans from back then I have seen and they were fairly simple elevation views with only a few dimmensions. I take it that he didn't need to insult the craftsmen of his time by telling them every detail.When we replicated the similar one, all drawings were freehand NTS on graph paper for our working drawings. The detail work was drawn full scale on walls as we worked.If I were drawing the same for another builder of a DIY, I would still draw it the same as mentioned and as was done a century ago, and it would include an off to work out every detail of working drawings if desired. A DIY would probably need that sort of work, but a craftsman would rather work it out himself. I currently have a house under construction that I designed for another contractor with a winder ( recall the discussion with Andy E after his article?) and I have denoted the floor hole pentration sizings and width, # of treads and the rise/run per. Haven't had any complaint from the builder on it, but he knows I am ready to assist with details if need be.Same thing with custom kitchen cabinetry. you don't create a cut list and denominate every single piece for the cabinet builder when you design a kitchen. Rather you demonstrate the essence and spirit of the desired end.BTW, the reason I do not attach a photo of the staircase I mention having built, is that it is in a home where privacy is desired and expected by the owners, and I respect that. if we meet face to face, I can show you in the portfolio, but it is not for public consumption.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the information.
The photo you attached is of a nicely executed (and designed) staircase.
There are two sides to this question about how much detail should be on prints, one taken by those that seem to think the staircase is something organic in its design and final execution, that all the details are best left to the artists-in-wood that will build it, and those that want some details.
I've not really heard anyone say that they want it detailed down to the gnat's eye view, though. Drawings that show, as you put it well, the essence and spirit of the desired end, are the best approach.
When an architect is injecting his good creativity into one, though, with some contemporary, whimsical, or just plain really good original architectural detail, those drawings may have to show more, but not really everything. Enough to ensure that "end" will be reached.
Even if one is to be all trimmed out with factory-made parts (as likely was done for the one in your photo), any caring architect will want to show a few details to help along the selection of balusters, rail, columns, etc.
As our Breaktime colleague Mr JHesh Snort so well put it, if one does not give him the details, the client will get the staircase that he, Snort, will "design," and if that is OK with everyone, well, then, its OK. Otherwise, it's the archy's fault for leaving a blank slate.
I think that a majority of tradesman buy into what I'll call the blank slate approach, because it leaves them the simplest way to get 'r done and get paid. Use parts easily sourced through your favorite yard, do what you've always done before, don't get bogged down trying to interpret prints that may have errors and omissions on them. I'm hearing a lot of criticism of architects from the blank-slate-git-'r-done crowd.
This whole thing began with me reading and seeing things over at the Chief Architect user forum, with quite a few users pleading for more and better tools for having Chief model and detail out staircases. I then chimed in with some opposite views, saying that the actual builders were not that demanding of detail, and that the 2D CAD tools in Chief were sufficient to do anything special needed.
What a lot of those Chief users are after, is tools to be able to get the photorealistic renderings of staircases, in which all the balustade, railing, turnouts, volutes, etc. are possible.
It was my opinion, and I said so over there, that most of that demand for the photorealism was being driven by the software users themselves, and not the clients, nor the tradesmen who do the building.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
<It was my opinion, and I said so over there, that most of that demand for the photorealism was being driven by the software users themselves, and not the clients, nor the tradesmen who do the building.>A picture is worth 10,000 words. As a trim carpenter, I want to get my job done, and not have to stand there figuring out how they think I'm putting this in that?!?Proportions mean a lot, and for me, that means a lot of drawings to get it right, at least to my eye. It's also a lot faster for me to move lines around on the screen than it is in the field.I like to know where things are going before they get there. Scabbing pieces on to hide poor planning, or tearing things out, drives me nuts.There's some stair pics on my website. Some worked out pleasantly, and some didn't. The ones that worked out best were the ones that were drawn the most, either myself or others.As a builder, I want it to be very clear to all trades what I want, going backwards costs me time and money that I'd rather be sharing with my family than with the vague detailer who is enjoying my cash while I'm fixing his "designs."http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Knowing where this Q sources from tells me a lot and I afree entirely with you. I love the 3d work but do explain to clients that it is intended to be representative and not minutely detailed.That sad, it is possible in SP to do that sort of accurate 3D work, but it can be as time consuming as building the actual set of stairs IMO.Interesting that this comes up now, as I was just starting yesterday and today trimming out one I designed (and framed the house for a DIY) almost a year ago. Once I finish the staircase, they can move in.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
from my perspective I think a lot of it depends on how particular the client is for the stairway. if they've got a lot of unique detials or layouts like the previous rail shown tjhat was inspired by a gate, then the detail needs to be in the prints. If the client doens't have any thoughts at all, then the be sure a legal stair run will fit where it's drawn and give good dims to locate the hole in the floors and what types of flooring and their thicknesses for weach floor. I wouldn't ever use the dims given on a set of plans for cutting my stairs, alway use the version the framers leave for me.
certainly the more unique and complex a staircase is, the more detail needs to be shown on the plans to be sure it gets right.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That is one cool stair case.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Yeah, don't get opportunities like that every day.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'll bet you gave some pics to the guys who built the copied set, too<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
I bet once your clients learn how accurately you detail the parts they will ask for the information everytime, but that is a slippery slope because once they figure out how much information you can provide you might spend a lot of time detailing. I review a lot of structural steel stairs for commerical projects and the amount of information and dimensions included is incredible. Good detailer = good fit and vice versa. The woodwork world seems to be on a totally different page. I will never understand. A properly dimensioined drawings eliminates thinking. Hopefully Stan and the other esteemed builders are passing along their knowledge.
Here is an example section I extracted, dimensioned, and built (fit perfectly too) when I was building my stairs. Sorry for the poor clarity. It was a 24x36 dwg, and by the time it was compresses its hard to read.
Brad
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Edited 6/19/2009 8:17 pm ET by brad805
Aye, the devil's in the details. You give them then you get them.And, that is one nice set of stairs.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
"I will never understand. A properly dimensioined drawings eliminates thinking. "
Either way, the thinking is being done. In your set of drawings, an office guy is doing the thinking. In the residential building industry, the thinking is being done by the craftsmen.
I'm glad I was working in the residential field.
Jim, designers are paid to design, trim carpenters are paid to carp... wah, wah, wah, wah, wah lolhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
I have the benefit of using a $20k structural steel detailing software for planning and then I built them. Without the years experience that others have, I could not attempt such a project.
If the modeller has the experience and pays attentions to details, there is no reason to waste the craftsman time, but if the guy at the helm is simply whichever flunky the arch assigned to the task or someone that does not understand anything about building, then by all means leave it to the craftsman. I have read many plans over the years that are worthless, and I am not a fan of a lot of useless pieces of paper with contridictory information.
I think Piffin had a great point. I think so long as the owner is prepared to pay you for your design time, great, whomever is most qualified in the team should complete this aspect of the design.
Brad
Nicely done, Brad
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've rough framed many circulars and most simply included the basic floor plan layout and we fit what we needed for code purposes into the space allocated.
On the highest end stuff that I worked on, the space allocated was exactly what we needed and the dimensioning was accurate. Generally, though the space that the curved stairways were being built was far more spacious than we needed and there weren't any of the critical headroom dilimenas that were a normal part of the scene on production style homes that had wannabe balustrades.
I posted this same q as a thread starter over at JLC, where Stan Foster went after Taunton/Mozilla did the pic allocation thing.
Here I will quote Stan's response.
All I need are the finish floor to finish floor height.....size of space allowed for the stairway....and hopefully the stairway was designed first....then the home designed around it....instead of what usually is done....the home is designed and whatever is left for the foyer....is what the stairbuilder has to work with. I have had some challenges trying to design a stairway to fit....and have any had to design ellipticals to get the job done.No 3d drawings are needed.Stan does no elaborate beyond that, but I have the distinct impression that little info is given for balustrade, newels, or other details.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
I think I misunderstood you. I would never expect to get 3d drawings, and the photo realism would be lost on me, too.Detailed sections are a different story for a specific stair set, though.<Stan does no elaborate beyond that, but I have the distinct impression that little info is given for balustrade, newels, or other details.>You're kidding right?
http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Nope. Not kidding.
Here is what a guy reports over at Contractor Talk, and in the post he is showing a few nice circular stairs. Doesn't say whether he did them or not. His screen-name calls him a framer.
The more detailed information on design, the better the finished product will fulfill the Architects expectations. Most of the plans we work from leave full stair design to the builder or stair company. I prefer it that way.
I'm going to post one of his pics here, and ask you to critique. What do you see that does not look well-planned?
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
That LOOKS well planned, and sure there was more info given than just the rise and run. You can't tell me the newels, balusters, rails were not spec'd, or that drawings were not done somewhere... how would a client know what they were getting?.. and, I know designers especially like to draw wainscoating.edited to add: I just looked at the pic again, how do you like the transition of the curved chair rail to the level?<The more detailed information on design, the better the finished product will fulfill the Architects expectations. Most of the plans we work from leave full stair design to the builder or stair company. I prefer it that way.> So, this guy is pretty wishy washy, or what? You'll have to explain that quote to me, huh? http://www.tvwsolar.com Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Edited 6/20/2009 9:25 am ET by Snort
I knew you would spot that wainscot transition. I'll bet that one was not drawn that way, if it was drawn at all. Paper gives one the better ability to try out a few looks before committing to cut wood.
Let's face it. All the detail in a staircase has almost everything to do with the balustrade, paneling, moldings, all the "trim" beyond the boring basics of the risers and the treads.
And a lot of the composition comes from the elements that define the space, and all that is above, beyond, below, and adjacent those essential basics of carriages, skirts, risers, and treads. The walls, adjacent windows, ceilings, openings in ceilings, skylights, vaults, floors, etc.
I asked Stan and he replied privately that for most all his work, he is the guy who builds the balustrade and does all the trim work on site, and that for virtually all his work, all the parts are in fact specified, and are off the shelf purchased components.
Which means that he, the builder, is not the one making the decisions.
I think the NJ guy, who is a questionable source because of not only his screen name (Framer-somebody) and his phrasing, is trying to say that he prefers to make the decisions, and that a lot of the work he sees is that way.
The thread here was started by me to question what needs to be on the prints to define staircase work in housebuilding, and I meant that to say, "what is on the original set of prints, the ones used up front at permit-issuance time?"
As I said to Piffin, it began with me participating in at a discussion site used only by users of the Chief Architect software I have, and in that thread, many users there were complaining about Chief's tools and the inability to "do" elaborate staircase work. By "do" I mean build in 3D by method of parametric modeling, in which the software user selects from an array of fixed parameters, specifying sizings, spacings, etc., and then the software "builds" the staircase in 3D, and gives one the ability to render it.
Look at any of the stair parts catalogs, and it is readily seen that there is a monstrous array of choices. Handrail patterns, balusters, newels, post-to-post, over-the-post, volutes, turnouts, yadda, yadda, yadda. It would be a very big software development project to build into Chief or any other of the packages, the ability to "draw" a staircase as shown in Pif's photo, and then render it with a variety of parts choices. But that is what many call for over at the software users forum.
But, what they want, is the means to get all those specialty parts in there, so that the render looks photo-realistic. I believe they are doing so mostly to satisfy their own vanity, thinking that it impresses the client greatly, or that the client needs to see that to be able to "OK" the choices.
I don't feel that way. I think the 2D drawings need to define the structure adequately so that built framing delivers a space correct for the building steps that follow. If it is to be a housed stringer unit built offsite in a shop, then top and bottom attachment has to be detailed, figured, and built. Pretty much the same for a site-built stairs.
If the house is of a design level wherein all the moldings, trim, and details are carefully planned by the architect or designer, then the prints can and will show, in 2D details, the shape and specs of all that, including staircase balustrades, landings, and more.
But the builders don't need the photo-real renders.
A great way to view wonderful stair work is to wander through old public buildings, and the courthouses of America are a great resource for this, when it comes to staircases. Not the newly built ones, the ones with the stupid word "center" in their titles, I mean the old 19th century and early 20th century ones. All designed by architects, and all built using good old 2D drawings. No one needed to do photo-real renders for those things to come out the way they did.
I believe there is a large segment of housebuilding out there today (or yesterday, before the fall) where the drawings show little if anything about staircase trim. I saw a whole lot of it when I would travel around the country and get into jobsites, when I was a suit in the door biz.
Many regions have, or used to have before the meltdown, "door and trim shops," businesses separate from lumberyards, with on-the-road-out-of-a-van salesmen dealing directly with builders and developers, selling moldings, doors, stair stuff, and a lot of other millwork specialties. Trucks packed with samples and catalogs. That is how a lot of the choices in staircase finish got made in those regions. Nothing on the prints except for the basics of the structure, and all the rest by samples, and eyeball-OKs on site.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Yes, yes, and yes. For permitting, all that's needed here are codeable rise, run, and width... headroom doesn't even come into play until the inspector bumps his on the framing walk-thru.I've worked from prints with 20 pages of details, it makes my planning all that much easier... doesn't mean everything works out, but it's a lot easier for me than working off a napkin... Stan has made himself into a very lucky guy<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Looking at Brad's Detailed drawing, the stringer appears to be 45 degrees. Any stairs 45 degrees or higher will work, but the rise and run will not meet code. A rise of 8" and run of 9" meets code but is not the most comfortable, but it meets residential code. 8 & 9 makes less than 45 degrees.
"A rise of 8" and run of 9" meets code"Depends on what 'code'7-3/4 run and 10" rise is the more common now.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
7-3/4 run and 10" rise is the more common now>>>>>>>>..
Backward????
dhuh, yeahThanks for the dope slap
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I am easy to confuse in the morning before my pils kick in. I had to really think about that. I guess I am the dope!>G<
No, No...my mistake. I get to play the fool on that one.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
and... IRC allows 8 1/4" rise and 9" run... not sayin' it's comfortable, just sayin'...http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
What code addition are you working under?
I am pretty sure the 2006 only allows a 7 3/4 rise, 10 run.
But codes and what works good don't always (ok, hardly ever) go together.
2006 IRC... but it is a blue page... and like I was saying, it's different lots of places. We get 4" min tread on winders, too...http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
"
2006 IRC... but it is a blue page... and like I was saying, it's different lots of places. We get 4" min tread on winders, too..."
Are you under the IRC or the NC uniform building code (or something that sounds like that)?
I ask because we are under the VA USBC (uniform statewide building code) and one of the provisions allows for an 8-1/4" rise and 9" run. IRC 2006 wants 7-3/4" and 10".I wonder if you don't have a similar set up to your neighbors to the north?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
IRC w/ NC Amendments... I think Andy Engle had a thread about code interpretations... lot of variations... that's why blanket statements don't seem exactly helpful... with out a disclaimer, of course LOLhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
If I recall correctly the angle of mine was just shy of 38deg. The only issue in some areas would be the open treads, otherwise all the other details did meet code. This thread was more about 3D/2D info and what people want to see.
Brad
think the NJ guy, who is a questionable source because of not only his screen name (Framer-somebody) and his phrasing, is trying to say that he prefers to make the decisions, and that a lot of the work he sees is that way.>>>>>>>>>>>>>..That correct screen name is Loneframer. He expects us to believe that he frames and builds all of the picts he posts. I especially like the fact that he prefers to work alone. HAHA!
What we as framers around here get is generally some rough idea of the size of the stair opening. Then the builder decides how he wants the stairway to look and specs it. The custom homes tend to be more detailed with more drawings of what the Arch or engineer wants.
Gene- I havent really been following this thread...and just now looked at it after your e-mail to me. I really dont have anything to add that would enlighten this conversation.
I can see the architect wanting detailed drawings so he can get as close to his desired look as possible.
I built 5 stairways for the owner of Jimmy Johns deli shops....Jim Liatuad.....and he hired a high end architectural firm out of Chicago that I worked with. Very detailed drawings,..that guided me towards pleasing the architect. I dont work off detailed drawing that much....and what they do is cause me to be in a higher price range because less flexibility is allowed.
Details are fantastic....and are fun to do.....they are also hour killers and can take over half the time for the stairway...at least. As long as its in my budget.....I would just as soon spend a year on one stairway than build 15.......
Stan
Edited 6/20/2009 9:49 pm ET by StanFoster
"what they do is cause me to be in a higher price range because less flexibility is allowed."Absolutely! A lot has to do with selection of the craftsman and then having trust in him and his judgment, which we do a lot here locally, all members of a project knowing one another and communicating closely with the owner client, but I can see the need for more archi-detailing when the project is is design phase and there is no clear choice of builder and subcontractor on the stairs yet.An example on that situation and how it effects cost run-up, I built a pair of gates from architectural plans that had been done about five years previous. The whole project was done before they did the gates, and by then, they were fed up with the builder.I was given a copy of the drawing s and asked to bui9ld them. A quick review and I said that I could modify them slightly, keep the same essential design and be able to build them less expensively.My instructions were = "No - they must be built exactly as shown. The architect studied some historical precedents for this design and it is important to follow their work. Cost does not matter"However, when the bill was presented, the check was paid with a Q, "How come it cost so much?..... we could have changed the design a little to make it more affordable"
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Piffin- You get your point across much clearer than I do....
I stumble for the correct words...and yours are always to the point.
But anyway, having a set of prints before me that I have to duplicate without exception, makes me realize it will take a lot more hours....and the risk of not satisfying EVERY detail EXACTLY, makes my price go up CONSIDERABLY.
The stair I am presently building in my shop is totally left up to me to build....but even with no strings attached,,,I still met with the client the other day showing them the iron balusters I was using , had them ok that,...then I even picked the color for them,,,and had them ok that. A stairs built like this has little threat of rejection as they basically are giving me freedom of choice.
Stan
Edited 6/21/2009 9:37 am ET by StanFoster
I don't know about saying it more clearly - just another perspective to add or clarify a detail.But what you say here is a large part of my theme thru this whole thread about cost efficinecy. For the designer to spend time creating details costs the client more, and then for the craftsman to follow those details costs the client more....Sometimes that is important, but not often.and I understand what Gene was saying about 3D representations. There is more WOW factor for the designer to present the client with a photo-realistic rendering, but that is time consuming. A visible line sketch can serve the builder quite well for demonstrating unique layouts.I have to go to a memorial service today or I would try some demos of stair design displays with different details on same layout for fun practice....but then that would use up all my photo allocation here.I haven't started a shutterfly or flicker space yet either
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I started browsing some images in the SPLASH gallery for discussion purposes here. I think it is open to the public.http://splash.softplansplsh.org/gallery/display_image.php?f=1&id=1995This is one that probably shows one of the problems with software being used by designers who don't understand stair design. see the newel at top of this short flight up? Know anyone who would actually build them like that? It is forced by simply dropping stairs in and clicking on "place railing left/right"
I think this may be part of what Gene and the CA discussion is touching on.SP can certainly allow a designer to place things right, but you have to know what you are doing.
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"What do you see that does not look well-planned?"Personally, I don't care for the way the chair rail and base cap intersect from the curved panel flowing to the landing panel.Also, it appeaars that the handrail ends at the newel at bottom of the curved, and there is NO handrail for the last part from floor to landing so it may not pass code in many jurisdictions. I knowmany of my elderly clients would have a complaint with that spot.
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Edited 6/21/2009 8:38 am ET by Piffin
Stan makes a critical point - that the staircase HAS to be one of the first elements designed in a home, and not just to please the staircrafter. All traffic patterns and spatial elements flow around that item.One job I 'designed' the HO ended up using me more as a draftsman than as a designer. he refused to accept at face =value my advice so I had to create his design and model it 3D to demonstrate to hiom WHY it would not work. He had little conceptual value of his own yet insisted on controlling the p[roject design.I pointed out to him that the first thing we needed to work out was the stairs but he ended up moving and changing them about 6-7 times and then wondered why I had too many hours in the billing!Yes I got paid
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Well Gene the trend today is toward BIM (building information modeling) in CAD design. And more and more modular construction.
A little more info from Autodesk on BIM.
http://usa.autodesk.com/company/building-information-modeling?DCMP=KNC-BIM-us-ggl
Other Architectural CAD software developers are also on the BIM band wagon so unless Chief Architect software is updated to support complete 3D modeling of every detail (including but not limited to stairs) they will be behind the industry standard very soon.
The reasoning behind BIM is when the building is completely modeled using BIM you basically have built the building completely in virtual reality so you can more easily find and solve problems that in the past were discovered only during construction wasting time and resources later to solve. (like the HVAC vents that don't fit in the area designated on the 2D plans)
Also as far as stairs floor to floor heights designed based on ideal rise and run dimensions can make stair design and construction more cost efficient.
also due to the fact that every aspect of the construction process has been thought out before the first shovel of dirt is dug more and more prefabrication can be done reducing build time on site.
Today many stairs are completely prefabricated hundreds of miles from the final installation site yet they fit perfectly you simply can not do that with out first accurate design and then second to build accurately based on that design. You can not leave anything in the plans to onsite modification when components are being built at different locations that must come together onsite.
In the past and even many cases even today stair fabrication is not started until the actual structure is built so accurate onsite measurements can be made. In other words every stair is custom built to fit the existing situation not always what was originally drawn on paper. Using BIM you could build the stair based on the CAD model and if everyone else followed the CAD model as well your stair will fit with little or no onsite fabrication. That is the benefit of BIM 3D modeling during the design process you work out all the details before you build anything in brick and mortar.
Good points.And I am very much attracted to the concept of BIN modeling with all it's positive aspects, but it still requires some tolerances - more for remodel/addition work than for new, because it is never possible to know all hidden conditions to account for. That must still be left to the craftsman on site who is ultimately responsible to make it work.This in a way connects back to the thread, "What is happening to our profession" in that the more detailing is taken out of the hands of the craftsman, the fewer craftsmen that we find developed in the next generation, and the more semiskilled, unthinking drones in factories we have producing our homes.
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Actually I do not think it necessarily needs to eliminate craftsmenship.
You can not get a more production and prefab oriented shop then Bensonwood
http://www.bensonwood.com/And yet they produce some of the best craftsmanship available in custom homes.
Production and prefab can free the craftsmen from the mundane work in building and the less then ideal job site work conditions. Making it much easier for them to concentrate on good design and focus on the details.Also onsite work must be even more precise. No making on site changes you build to the plans and you need to meet tight tolerances. The old way many framers measured to within 1/4 inch and even 1/2 inch out over 20 feet was considered OK to many framing crews. It was get it done and do it before it snows or rains or one day your framing in -10F the wood is wet and frozen and won't dry out until they put heat in the house. Hardly conducive to quality work.Now I suppose if I was a framing sub I would not consider prefabbing walls in a shop and SIPs a good thing since my living is made stick framing. But I am not. for me the quicker and more accurate the building frame goes up the better. Many framing crews are hardly craftsmen today anyway. Not to take away from the good hard working framers out there but a shop built wall built in a controlled environment is a step in the direction of greater quality not less. And there is still plenty of remodel work for a good framer even if all new homes are built using prefab wall panels. And then someone still needs to put it all together. You just spend less time out in the weather.
Hay 99% of autos are built in a production line but you can still buy a hand made Rolls If you have the money. If you are going to bring home building into the 21st century
it is inevitable.
It is just change to fight is counter productive, adapt or be left behind as they say it amazes me it has taken this long to move to a more production base way of building homes.I do finish work but I already do not build cabinets and mill work on site I simply install it there. I prefer a day in a nice warm wood shop over a cold garage or a outside temporary on site shop. I have built just about everything on site but it is much easier and more comfortable to build it in fully equipped wood shop. With prefab walls and BIM design you just build more of it in a controlled environment it still takes the same skill to build a wall in a shop as in the field but you are much more comfortable doing it and the wood is dry not frozen and your not getting rained on or sweeting away in the heat. It is just change no reason to fight it adapt or be left behind as they say it is inevitable it amazes me it has taken this long to move to a more production base way of building homes.