I am interested in using the type of full glass doors seen in many store fronts. They are usually brushed aluminum framed and the store display windows are usually clad in the same stuff.
(Thermal efficiency is not a major factor at this point.)
Having seen older store buildings retrofitted with more modern material, I am wondering if the doors are measured and made to fit the old openings.
I like the clean appearance and also that it will require far less maintenance.
This will be used for the kitchen entrance which is protected by a covered porch.
I am planning on checking with the local glass shop, which seems to do a lot of store fronts in our area.
(I also see these types of doors/windows featured in articles showing off New York City lofts and apartments.)
In general are they usually custom made for each (commercial) job ?
I’m wondering if asking about an entry door only will generate little interest from the vendor/manufacturer.
Thanks,
Alan
Replies
Don't know where you are in the country, but here in NYC there are tons of outfits that do just that. Most of them are Chinese contractors, they roll up in their truck and the whole thing's finished in 4 hours. Pretty amazing. It is, I believe, the kind of thing that is extremely easy if you do it all the time and a minefield if you don't.
I do not think they come "off the shelf".
DW
Edited 5/12/2002 1:02:22 PM ET by D_Wood_NY
How do the guys in the truck cut the glass? Wouldn't it have to be tempered glass?
The way the Manhattan crews work (and a few others I'm sure) is that the doors are a standard size (as in fixed) and the frame is made to fit the opening. This type of setup works only in a limited number of sizes because there is only so much you can make up with fixed size extruded aluminum frame material. Normally what you do is call a commercial glass contractor and have them come out and measure the opening and quote you a price. They will be providing the frame, hinges, door, insulated tempered glass, sidelites if necessary, threshold, pull handles, push handles or panic device, closer and lock. If you aren't familiar with pricing at all, ask for a range on the phone first as these things aren't cheap. The link is to one of the biggest and best names in the business.
http://www.kawneer.com/
carpenter in transition
They could be using laminated safety glass. But since almost all storefront doors are 36" wide, it's pretty much a cookie cutter operation.
I seriously doubt that anyone is using laminated safety glass for storefront doors. It just doesn't hold up. If you push on it, it flexes and cracks. The doors come standard 3'0" x 6'8" or 7'0" glazed with tempered i.g. or u.i.g. and any sidelites usually require lead time due to tempering.
carpenter in transition
Sorry, I explained that poorly. It is not an "it's all on the truck" operation like say, replacement glass guys, where a small job might go from phone call to completion in 1/2 an hour if the truck happens to be on a call next door. These guys come out and measure first for the glass.
The other posts in here have shed much more light on this than I have and seem to have covered it pretty completely.
Good luck,
DW
I work on and sub out work on these doors almost daily. Typically it is laminated glass. I've never noticed one with tempered glass. They must be out there but the only time i notice what kind of glass is in there its because its broken. Probably did 6 glass replacements last year. Usually i sub out glass replacement but not always.
I also hire others to work on the pivots, closers, and openers.
I work on the locks of these doors constantly. The commercial door locks rarely have a backset greater than 1-1/4". The hollow metal frames may or may not meet energy codes for residential construction.
3/0 X 7/0 is your most common size. You'll save money on the door if you stick with that size.
joe d
Holy cow, folks - thanks for the flood of replies.
I guess it's time to call the local shop and see what they have to say.
This will be for a 1950s era brick ranch, so the brick veneer will be a factor. All the door frame, etc obviously is wood and I am not sure how they will deal with this.
I'm sure this will be an off-the-wall request and they may not have a ready answer.
I do appreciate the warning about foot injuries.
I don't think that's a concern with our existing doors.
Maybe the commercial doors end up higher off the floor ?
And thanks for the links to the companies.
I am aware of full-view wooden doors, one of which is at a friend's house as a back entrance off a deck that gets a lot of sun.
You can already guess the amount of maintenance that's involved.
Thanks again and if you have any more comments, I'm all ears.
Alan
Ok, I am glass ignorant, but I have lost count of the closers and pivots I hvae worked on. The doors may actually be lower to the floor than a standard residential wood or steel door. A lot depends on the type of treshold. Most of the commercial doors do not have any sweep beneath the door, just a square edge stile and rail. We have even filed or used a grinder to ease the bottoms to reduce the hazard. The problem is that it is metal... a lot harder a less forgiving than a piece of wood or weather strip.
I assume your door will swing inside the house. Fire code requires exit/entrance doors to swing out and have closer to keep them shut. Hold open devices are not allowed unless connected to the fire alarm/detection/supression system. That is local code, but it pretty much follows NFPA.
Gave you the wrong name. It is Swanhee (like the river), not Kawanee (a boiler manufacture)
Dave
Kawneer is a big manufacturer of those doors.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
http://www.lazarobuilders.com
Thanks John, I've got CRS. My files are at work, or I would have looked it up. I don't think he would need a closer on a residential installation, unless the door swings out. That is one ugly piece of hardware I woud not want in my home. Looks like a big old growth on the door or the cassing, depending on installation.
Wow, I've never seen a door that didn't have tempered glass. Considering how easily I've seen laminated glass break, I figured the only reason why anyone would use it in this application would be because if instant availability. Most of the units I see are insulated glass, so this could be a factor. Anyway, why would you want to spend so much money on a commercial door for a house. Is it for a particular look ? Mill finish aluminum on a house ? Are you into the ultra narrow stile and rail look ? A steel full lite door would sure save you a lot of dough and hassle.
carpenter in transition
Yes expect to pay commercial rates for the work. Somewhere between $10 to $20 more per hour I'd guess.
joe d
Kawneer seems to be it.
Turns out to be an Alcoa company.
Thanks for the info and I'm browing their web site.
Alan
Edited 5/12/2002 8:29:02 PM ET by Ahneedhelp
Joe D mentioned something very important and easily overlooked. The standard size is 7'-0", not 6'-8" like residential doors. If you spec a 6'-8" storefront door, expect to wait a little longer and pay a premium.
The type of door you want usually can be fitted in either a block wall or store front metal wall. There are also jambs that are made for metal stud installation, and I think one could be used in wood construction. They are available in both single and insulated tempered safety glass.
Yes, they are very heavey duty, and would be much lower in maintenance in residential use (lower traffic volume). They are always fitted with some type of door closer that is equaly heavey duty. The closer range in price from $75.00 to over $300.00, so depending on application they are a large factor in maintenance expense. The doors generally have a top and bottom pivot type hinge, not a surface mount or mortise type. Installation and alignment of the whole package is not a DIY project. These jokers can be heavier than a solid core door.
Locally we have ours made and installed with all hardware, including our Best core locks for around $700.00 to $1200.00 depending on the variables mentioned.
One not of caution: these things are pretty hard on toes! I have seen more than one customer wearing sandles pull them open and catch thier toes with the bottom edge of the door. Those metal edges can rake off a lot of hide.
Take a look at Kawanee web site for closer specification, and I believe Yale also has closer information. Kawanee is the high end stuff and Yale runs the whole spectrum of cost.
Dave
A commercial door will cost a lot more than you expect. I believe that tempered insulated glass is the norm now. I never saw safety glass installed unless it was a replacement unit. Look for a commercial installer to install them. Glass shops mainly do repair and glass replacement. I worked commercial glass for a while, and we never installed new work.
One of the reasons for a closer on store front doors, is to keep them closed. Now, hang on a minute! Residential doors have door hardware that automatically latches in the closed positon, so the door won't blow open with the wind (or the dog). Most store front door hardware stays retracted except when the door is locked at night, so the only thing that keeps it from swinging free is the closer. Unless you install latching hardware, the door won't stay closed. And don't forget that the door stiles are indeed very narrow, so the hardware options are limited.
The hardware selection will indeed be limited. You can't expect to put a standard houshold latch mechanism in without modification, and it would look out of place on the commercial door anyway.
These doors are closer to the ground than typical residential, mainly due to ADA legislation requireing no more that 1/2" threshold highet due to potential wheelchair use in a retail/public environment.
Edited 5/14/2002 2:46:48 PM ET by Stray
Edited 5/14/2002 3:50:13 PM ET by Stray