My BIL has a home adjacent to a large church parking lot. Last year the church added another catch basin at its lowest point, which also happens to be about 6-8 ft uphill of his backyard. Since the construction was finished, apparently done by a church member, without inspection ???, his backyard has been a swamp for days after every rain.
The church has not been sympathetic at all. They did do a dye test on the new catch basin, which showed no color in his backyard. Numerous calls have accomplished nothing, saying it was “grandfathered.” His yard is just ruined — it was a vegetable garden and play area for pets and kids.
Any suggestions. We are now looking into a french drain …
Replies
>> They did do a dye test on the new catch basin, which showed no color in his backyard.<<
Sounds as if the catch basin is not the source of the problem - unless you think the dye test was invalid for one reason or another. If you are suspect of the test, get another one done, but don't expect the church to pay for it unless it turns up a problem.
>> His yard is just ruined -- it was a vegetable garden and play area for pets and kids.<<
Mine's not too sporty this year either. But the problem is from an excessive amount of rain this season. How's the weather been at BIL's house?
Normally my grass is brown and crispy at this time of year, now if I don't cut at least once a week, it looks like a hay field.
When it does stop raining long enough to get the grass dry enough to cut - my feet still sink in as I walk behind the mower.
>>We are now looking into a french drain ...<<
To drain the yard? To where?
Jim
I've done allot of dye testing, for all kinds of issues, a dye test takes time, if you dose the catchbasin before an event, the dye can take a while to reach your site, the next big storm may do it.
What type of dye, green or red (sorry, can't remember names), the green is easier to see absorbed less than the red.
Take samples over 24 hours, 1 per hour, if the conc is weak you may not see the dye, unless you can compare a before sample with an after sample.
Dig a sampling hole in the yard so surface runoff is not being tested.
Was the yard water sample concentration measured with a colorimeter, or just visual.
The church will have no interest in being sympathetic, in our city, you are responsible for any water you pass to your neighbor and you need a permit, keep at them, your BIL's property is being effected negatively
Thanks wane,The church gave them no notice about the dye test. I assume that they poured dye into the new basin, but not the old one. No one mentioned a calorimeter or test instrument. I don't even think it was raining. They poured in dye and looked for color in their backyard. Finished.That town has dye tests required for property transfers. They require storm runoff disconnect from sanitary lines. I think that's the kind of visual inspection they did.My BIL should have been screaming from day one. To me his yard is ruined and his house is next -- mold issues in basement.
Thanks Jim,The old catch basin is upstream of the new -- I'm thinking possibly it leaks between the two, and that's the area adjacent to his yard. My BIL says the water does NOT overflow the basins, forming a spreading "lake," rather he has seen water bubbling up in his yard while it rains.Weather has been cooler here in Greater Pittsburgh (like that!!!) than normal this summer ... with average rainfall ... but he never has had water like this. He has had a muddy mess since last year.Since the property slopes back to front, the french drain would have to be piped to the front somewhere.
Edited 9/1/2009 9:31 am ET by Pixburd
Ah, more to the story.
I would have a tendency to photograph the overflowing catch basins and the resulting "lake".
I don't know who to consult as to a second dye test - soil engineer, plumber...... don't know.
1) BIL approaches church and requests permission to run the dye test. If refused skip to 3b without the benefit of the test results.
2) BIL pays for second dye test - save receipt.
3) Assume: second dye test shows leakage of water to BIL's property:
a) BIL approaches church with photos and test results and requests reimbursement for the cost of testing and cure (fixing the leak caused by their actions).
b) If church refuses -- take photos and test results to the city / township / local authorities and request action.
c) If no response from church or city -- get an attorney, a letter from an attorney would probably at least coerce the church into granting permission to run the second dye test.
Your original post reminded me of an incident years ago. Built a deck at house "A". House "B" was about 75' away and downhill from house "A".
Shortly after the deck was completed, house "B" started getting water in the basement. Owner of "B" blamed "A"'s deck for somehow putting rain water into his basement --- made no sense, but he would not shut up --- somehow we must have done something and caused his "new" leak.
City supplied water for both houses -- chlorine and flouride treated.
Tested water in basement and found chlorine and floride in about the right concentrations.
Turned out "B"'s water main was leaking into his own basement. Neighbor "B" apologized profusely for being such an idiot and paid all testing costs. Then had his water main replaced -- dry basement again!
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks Jim,I'm so sorry I left out crucial word "NOT" in my last post - NO lake forms -- my bad -- I revised that post -- sorry again. In fact, this was my initial thought -- an overflowing lake inundated his yard, and I asked them about this repeatedly -- he assured me -- The water comes from the ground. An underground spring has developed.Great story about how two unrelated events can get linked together if they occur at the same time. I also have considered this.Has anyone used a camera instead of a dye test? I wish I knew why they added a second catch basin ~40 ft. from the first, and how they are plumbed underground.So far, the municipality said there is nothing they can do to help.
>>I wish I knew why they added a second catch basin ~40 ft. from the first, and how they are plumbed underground.<<
That is a good question.
Speculation:
Catch basin #1 worked fine for some period of time, then started overflowing for reasons unknown.
Church decided that the reason for overflow was "not enough water collection points". Added second catch basin and plumbed it into the first basin.
Real reason for overflow: clogged or collapsed piping from original catch basin.
Only testing will tell, the question is how to get the church to agree to it (even if they do not fund it).
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks Jim,You bring up a good question -- how much of the parking lot runoff goes into the original catch basin, and how much, if any, goes into the new one. I hope to find a rainy day to answer some of these questions. I'll bring my "sharp pencil and a good flashlight" and a camera too. I'm an engineer (not civil though) so I do have some better skills than my BIL who is a jeweler.Assuming the church does nothing to help my BIL, does anyone know which agency would be responsible for private storm water runoff??If we hired a plumber with a snake camera and found a broken drain pipe under church property, who would we tell??
I am not sure, even for my own town.
I think I would start with the Department of Sanitation -- probably not their department (their water is usually dirtier), but I bet they would know who is in charge of rain water.
Good luck!
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
THE CHURCH WILL NEVER DO ANYTHING NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PROVE. just run a swell or french drain between the basin and your land, catch the water before it enters your land.
<< THE CHURCH WILL NEVER DO ANYTHING NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PROVE. just run a swell or french drain between the basin and your land, catch the water before it enters your land. >>Brownbagg, sounds like you have been thru this before. Got any suggestions for a french drain??
aroound here we have alot of spring head so we either move the water of live with it. 1) water will not invade clay, it will ride on top of it
2) water will take the path of lease resistance
3) water will not run up hillso you can move the water by installing a french drain between the church and your property, move it to a lower elevation away from where you dont need ita french drain can be a perflated pipe install in a sock installed in sand. It can be a trench of loose sand or gravel. gravel better. dig a trench couple feet deep , slope the bottom of trench away to lower property, fill with gravel.you can live with it, raise your property higher than the basin.orfoot of sand with topsoil and grass on top of that. the water will stay in the sand layer. But the grass will die when it dry. the sand will wick the water out of topsoil.sand is beach sand, not mixture sand.It it was me. I rent a ditch witch for the weekend. drop that black pipe with holes in it, in the ground. cover with sand. and if you can pop it into a manhole without nobody knowing, better.The church not going help, because the church made up of a pator that dont care and a 100 part time member that know everything but no money.
"The old catch basin is upstream of the new -- I'm thinking possibly it leaks between the two"
I didn't catch that the first time through- that's definitely a possibility. If the guy just cut the line that used to go from the old basin to the muni drain and tied in the new basin, without doing anything to the old drain and now severed line, then any water collected in that first line would be saturating the ground right there.
When you look in the new basin, is there an inlet where the line from the old basin dumps in? Or is the assumption that the old line ties in to the new line between the new basin and the muni? if it is, then that should be clear in a video.
If you get a video of the line from the new basin to the muni drain, and there's no tie-in, then I think you could demand they seal the old basin.
Some folks might be tempted to anonymously donate some concrete to the church's old collection basin, I suppose... or a removable plug as a test, perhaps.
k
Edited 9/1/2009 11:43 pm by KFC
Edited 9/1/2009 11:45 pm by KFC
When you say catch basin, what do you mean?
Is it a dry well, or is there a pump? Where does the water in the basin go to? Does a pipe daylight above the downhill property?
If it's simply percolating into the ground, why would that cause more downhill run-off than no basin at all?
k
<<When you say catch basin, what do you mean?Is it a dry well, or is there a pump? Where does the water in the basin go to? Does a pipe daylight above the downhill property?If it's simply percolating into the ground, why would that cause more downhill run-off than no basin at all?>>The catch basin in the church parking lot is where all the rain water flows, it has a metal grate on top and a huge hole underneath on the side where the water goes out. There is no pump in there. The drain connects to municipal storm sewers. If there were no catch basins and sewer pipes at all, then about 2 acre's worth of rain would flow thru his backyard, ugh! If the drain pipe were leaking, then a fraction of that rainwater could travel underground to my BIL's yard.
"The drain connects to municipal storm sewers. "
Ah. Got it. Hence the dye test.
Well, if the dye test didn't seem to show anything, then I guess you (he) need to intercept the flow with a french drain or a swale, as mentioned by bb and others. I guess you could video the drain pipe from the basin to the muni storm drain to verify that it really is connected properly.
Come to think of it, how do you know the muni line isn't leaking somewhere in there? If it was cracked when the guy punched in, dye could flow from the basin on down the line ok, but upstream water in the muni line could be leaking to the ground just at or above where he tied in.
I'll have to re-read your posts to see if they dyed the muni line too...
I've worked on a couple of seasonal creeks that ran across peoples properties, where we formed swales and filled them with attractive fist-sized rock- when dry they visually suggested a flowing creek, and when the rains came, they really did flow. That's only gonna deal with surface water, though.
You might have some ditch digging in your future. I actually enjoy french-drainage work, but I'm nuts. I find it intensely satisfying, and everytime I've done it, it has worked really well. Be prepared to get rid of all that fill, though.
k
I have the best solution. Before all the walls fences and parking lot was there, the water would naturally flow thru your BIL property, it WAS the natural drainage flow.
The solution is for you BIL to give the Church permission to run their water thru a 3" or 4" pipe to the BIL front street. The Church should pay for the labor and materials. You Bil should be accommodating by allowing it to happen. I find most neighbors need more cooperation, why would anyone need an enemy or war with a neighbor.
No one has ever won a neighborhood war.
<<Before all the walls fences and parking lot was there, the water would naturally flow thru your BIL property, it WAS the natural drainage flow.>>Sungod, hard to say how the water went originally since all the terrain has been graded for development way back in the 50 or 60's.The church is not going to help unless forced to. At this point, without a sure footed plan, I don't recommend disturbing the church any more, since our final request will probably be for equipment access for a ground drain.
A laser level and an hours time should give your BIL a pretty good idea of the drainage path(s) off of the parking lot. If everything is going to the catch asin(s) he's SOL, but if not, .........
Unless your local JHA is the one giving you the "grandfatherd" story, they may take an interest after a phone call.
>>Unless your local JHA is the one giving you the "grandfatherd" story, they may take an interest after a phone call.<<Dave, what's a JHA?
Jurisdiction Having Authority. (i.e. the building/permit department for your city/county)
Around these parts, it's called AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). Either way, I would think they may be VERY interested in a new project that is "grandfathered" in. Also, the OP referred to the project as not having a permit. I think THAT should raise some eyebrows in the AHJ office. If not, then it should raise some eyebrows from the people who pay the AHJ. Could it be that there's some corruption going on?
As Bill said to Ted: "Ted, there's strange things afoot at the Circle K."
Are you sure that the new catch basin is tied into the city's storm water system and not just a french drain?
I have put french drains in for parking lots due to lack of accessible tie ins with storm water systems. But have also had the area, and lack of impact to adjacent properties to do it with.
You state: "Since the construction was finished, apparently done by a church member, without inspection ??"
Any municipality would require an inspection to tie into their system, along with the fee for the tie in.
Regarding the dye trace, did anyone check down stream of the parking lot catch basin to see if the dye was going into the storm system?
My hunch is that the old catch basin in the parking lot was a french drain, and when it failed, they put in a new french drain. And the soil between your BIL property and the new catch basin is more permeable and/or fill, that is causing the backyard swamp.
Out of curiosity, what is the delay time between a rain and the ground going soft and wet?
Recommend you first talk to the government entity governing storm water. Start with the city, and find out who that is. Go from there.
If there is a permit, there should be plans filed away showing how the catch basin ties into the city's storm water system.
Let me know what you find, and I'll point you in your next direction.
I think I can say, and say with pride that we have some legislatures that bring higher prices than any in the world. - Mark Twain
<<Are you sure that the new catch basin is tied into the city's storm water system and not just a french drain? Regarding the dye trace, did anyone check down stream of the parking lot catch basin to see if the dye was going into the storm system?>>Thanks EngineerGuy,Knowing the area, I'm quite sure the parking lot drain is tied to storm sewers. The new work was done on site only, so no permit was apparently pulled. I was told 2nd hand that the on-site work was "grandfathered." The original drain tie-ins were done decades ago, and that work was not affected. The building inspection office could do nothing. I suspect that the storm drain travels under the north exit drive.No one was present for the dye test. I am assuming they poured dye into the new basin and saw no color in his backyard. I hope to get over there soon with a flashlight and look in those basins.If you Google Maps "219 center, 15146" you can see the church. The parking lot drains east to the north driveway where the work was done. The main church entrance off the parking lot is there, and the foyer of the church has a white roof. My BIL's house next door also has the white roof. The old basin shows as a black dot in the parking space in the N.E. corner of the parking lot. The new work is not yet shown. Hope this works.Thanks
Go to http://www.bing.com/maps/ and look at birdseye views. I can see more than Google. I can see you BIL 2 cars in the driveway in front of the one car garage. Also, the neighbor next door must love the water because he has tons of vegetation. And the neighbor next to him has 4 boats.
The "Bird's Eye View" on Bing is awesome! Did you notice that the view from the north must have been taken on a different time/day than the view from the South, East, and West, since the number of cars in the lot changes?You're right that his neighbor to the west is a bit strange.
Edited 9/2/2009 6:36 pm ET by Pixburd
And that guy sitting on his back porch down the street is drinking a cabernet out of a white wine glass.Poor form.
I can definately see how this could happen. ?? apparently done by a church member << I've done a lot of volunteer work and that was something that constantly erked me; the attitude of "oh well, I'm doing this for free (or cheap)so this is good enough".
Here, impervious areas and the handeling of runnoff are tightly controled by the city and/or county; no new work is "grandfathered." I think the situation needs to be persued with the AHJ.
One Q - is there a curb and gutter between the church property and your BIL's property? I'm guessing yes, but can't quite tell from the arieal. Just curious.