Here’s the situation: I’m finishing up my first house for a client, and notice the carpet in the master b-room is soaked. After shutting off the water and getting into the wall to see where this water is coming from, my worst fear is realized. I hit the copper supply line with a trim nail. After tearing off the drywall, I find that not only did one nail pierce the line, but four did. The nails went through the metal plates that are there to protect the copper. Here’s the question: Who is liable for repairing the water line and any damage? Since I installed the trim, and it was my nails that caused the problem, am I at fault? Or would this fall on the plumber, since the protective plates he installed didn’t do the job? I have never been in this situation before, and greatly appreciate any advice.
Thanks, Mitch
Replies
Mitch,
I'm guessing it was an interior 2x4 wall since normally no one runs water in exterior walls. Not in my freezing climate, at least.
As long as the pipe was reasonably centered in the stud and a protective plate was installed, you'd be picking up the bill.
I'm guessing you were air nailing. Either that or you ate Wheaties that morning. If it can be considered a learning experience, use it to re-think the length of fastener you use.
Truly, it stinks...
I know a contractor that this happened to once. Same deal - trim nail hit a copper pipe. Water slowly leaked out, and saturated the carpet before anyone realized what was going on. Plumber came in and patched the pipe. But he only drove the trim nail back out far enough to patch the pipe.
So someone comes along, sees the nail sticking out of the trim, and drives it back in..........
The GC ended up eating about $2,000 on it, if I remember right.
The world's full of apathy, but I don't care
I mark my studs before sheetrock along with pipes. If you are nailing anyold place, it's your fault. If the plumber put the pipe close to a stud it's his.
Paul -
What exactly do you mark?
The problems I've known about were vertical pipes in walls. the nails were trim nails for baseboard. You couldn't mark the subfloor, as there would be a finished floor surface over it before the baseboard went on.
The world's full of apathy, but I don't care
I mark subfloors. If other subs come in it is up to them to mark the walls for me.
A side note: If I do not get to mark the studs I find a elec outlet and measure 16" off that. i never shoot on base into the plate for the reason you state
Also, as far as hanging fixtures and cabinets go, and some types of trim, a smart builder will do blocking.
This whole issue just points out that things should never be taken for granted, communication is key, and Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
Ken Hill
Oh, yeah. And I forgot to mention- anyone with a nail gun (or nails) in their hand should be smart enough to be aware of what it is they're nailing into.
Ken Hill
Mongo- The wall was an interior wall, separating the master bedroom from bath. The pipe was not centered perfectly in the stud. I was using 2", 15ga. nails in a senco sfn40 gun.
The pipes run horizontal through the wall, and the one I hit was the bottom one. The base trim was 5.25", and was held up 1/2" off the subfloor. Every nail went into a stud, through the metal plate. I always mark where studs are located before drywall goes up. Like I may have said before, this has never happened before, and I am seeking a little advice. On a job I was doing a few years ago, I hit a metal plate that was attached to the bottom wall plate. In that instance the nail curved back and came out the face of the trim.
I talked to the plumber today, and he said he has never had a metal plate fail, so it looks like I will be taking care of this one. Thanks all for the help.
Mitch
You know it's funny, but I don't ever remember seeing pipe runs that close to the floor before. Then again, we don't build any houses on slabs either so most pipe runs are in the basement.
Funny with 1 3/4 to the center of the stud, 1/2 for the drywall, 1/2 plus for the heavy base, using 2" nails should have been the way to go. A plate behind the drywall should have easily deflected the nail.
I'd kick that plumbers butt till he made good for it.
Gabe
Sounds like a tough break, but not much you can do, be happy it was not over the oak paneled library ceiling. If the plumber was a decent guy I would say split it, may sound like a cop out but it seems he should share in the solution, if in fact his nail plates failed....I mean, what are they there for if not to deflect a nail or a screw, why even bother installing them, or is it just for that unsightly bulge in the drywall?
Also, makes me think I will try to angle my nails just a touch in the future, perhaps they would be more likely to deflect off the plate at a slight angle.
Bill
Mitch, honestly, that's too bad.
You figure 3/4" base and 1/2" drywall, that only gives you 3/4, say 7/8ths with the head set, of nail penetration into the stud. With a 1" hole centered in the stud you should have had another 3/8ths of an inch before entering the Danger Zone.
I'm pretty suprised the plates didn't deflect the nail, or at least minimize penetration, resulting in a jammed gun. Good for Senco, bad for you.
Doesn't really sound like anyone's fault...just a lousy day. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to ask the plumber to toss in materials and a bit of his time to fix the plumbing with you handling the rest. Especially if there wasn't a reason for him to not have the Cu centered in the stud, and even moreso if he's using the thin-gauge protector plates.
Edited 5/9/2002 10:20:50 PM ET by Mongo
Way in the back of my foggy head it seems there is actually a code requirement that fasteners for trim , cabinets and etc. do not penetrate the stud by more than 3/4 "
On An Island By The SEA
1-1/4" according to CABO...or covered with a protective plate. If I shoot deeper than that, I'll TAKE responsibility for any penetrations into wires or pipes. If my 16ga nail ever blew through a plate, I wouldn't even consider it to be my problem. If I drilled through it, that would be a different story. Not trying to be rude, but I won't pay for someone else's mistake. But I might offer to buy the plumber a beer at the end of the day...
Steve
This was how I first learned plumbing...lol.
Turn off the water open the lowest faucets in the house...cut the pipe and solder in a coupling. No biggie really. Whats the worst that can happen? Its already punctured.It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
If the lines aren't marked on the floor it's the builders problem.
Some builders pay us to mark the house before sheetrock, others do it themselves. A can of orange spraypaint for all wires and pipes, and a lumber crayon taped to a stick to mark all studs. We also take a poloriod of the kitchen walls, putting a cabinet screw in a vent stack or flexible gas line ain't cheap either. If the house isn't marked they take the risk not me.
Plumber did nothing wrong. His pipes were buried in the wall and covered with steel. You hit the pipe. You are responsible. Were you there before they rocked the wall? If so, you should have marked the locations. Are there appliances nearby, like a sink, tub, shower etc? If so, you are on notice that they are there, and should have hand nailed the area.
I've been there and done that, and it aint pretty, but it is your fault.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Boris-
Correct you are it is not the plumbers fault.
And if the nail hit a wire its not the electricans fault.
Trim carpenters don't have x-ray vision. If the sub-floor is not marked how the heck do I know whats in the wall? Measuring 16" from a found stud is great but don't depend on it in panelized framing because it ain't so.
IT'S THE BUILDERS FAULT.
Boris,
My adventure in this weeping wall business is as follows. I had the bottom 2' of sheetrock removed. I knew there was a shower on the other side of the wall but there were no pipes so obviously the shower faucets [at 4'] were fed from the attic. So I was nailing a piece of plywood to the wall at about the 3" level and the wall became very sad. It started crying. Tears of shower water began oozing from the wall.
You would thing that the plumbers would just drop down to the 4' faucet level but no! They ran their pipes down to 2 1/2 feet and then added a couple of elbows and went back up to the faucets. Maybe they got paid by the foot?
To all:
I appreciate and agree with your remarks on harmony and co-operation on the job site.
-Peter
Given the best efforts by competent professionals bad things still happen. This is why tradesmen add a little something to those estimates to cover the bad luck days. If you are lucky the plumber will fix the pipe at a reduced cost. Add a little drywall and baseboard and your back in business.
Who's at fault? Clearly, it's the company that made the protective plates, for two reasons:
1. Their plates were correctly installed and yet failed to stop even little finishing nails.
2. They're the only one of the bunch with anything remotely like deep enough pockets to be worth going after. ;-)
-- J.S.
hey John.good flash but I bet their lawyers on retainer are gonna win the case cause the lil' guys gotta pay a lawyer......thats the problem with lawyers......I'd say.on your idea John...HE should go to small claims ct where you dont need a lawyer. You rock John....so to speak...lol
BE Well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Seriously, though, it might not be such a bad idea to contact the plate company. Send them some of the plates with holes in them and the nails that made the holes. Start at the top, with the CEO. If they're a good outfit, they'll want to improve their product to prevent this.
-- J.S.
Wow......that's really a drag. A few weeks ago a friend of mine asked me to help him, with a couple of other guys, to trim a house. I was working in the kitchen and he made a big production about avoiding the pipes in the walls (like drawing pics on the drywall). There were marks on the floor where the pipes obviously were. Sooooooo......when he left the room, I picked up a piece of base, cut it to fit the back of a closet, but before I put the piece in place I shot a couple of holes in the loose mldg where the pipes were. I pulled the nails and then put it in the back of the closet and nailed it home.
Well when he passed through the kitchen, to check on our progress, I thought he was going to have a heart attack......he couldn't even talk. Gees we were laughing so hard.............He'd of probably thought it was funny too, but he just came from the dining room where he had finished putting up the wrong crown moulding.
It's all in timing..........jocobe
Edited 5/10/2002 10:01:54 PM ET by JOCOBE
15 years and I haven't hit a water line...I read this thread and started adding: 5/8" (at least) base, 1/2" sheetrock, 1 3/8" framing(3/4" lines in 2x4 wall)....I only use 2 1/2" nails (especially on pocket door walls, gotta teach 'em a lesson), I'm thinkin', man, I'm lucky... then I remember the nail plate...bang away and the plumber pays, except he's my buddy, damn it!
Comedianship...
"It's all in timing..........jocobe"
What's the difference between the class clown and the class comedian?
The class clown ran out onto the basketball court naked.
The class comedian is the guy who talked him into doing it.
Reason for a little humopur here is that you'll laugh this off someday unless you build bitter feelings with the plumber over it.
Nobodys fault - just bad luck - it happens from time to time. I've got one right now (my first) (wink) where the nail just kissd the edge of the copper. No leak but the galv nail is in contact with the pipe and I don't want to wait ten years for galvanic reaction to cause the leak. I'm pre-emptive.
Learn from it and enjoy life.
Excellence is its own reward!
This is more of a response to the posts below than to you. Actually it is a generalized venting of one of my biggest gripes in new construction.
As a plumber I am not responsible to idiot proof my work. I am a top notch professional who does some of the finest work to be found. (website coming soon) But if I meet code for protecting my work and you still nail into it by using too much power or whatever I cannot be held responsible in any shape or form.
If I am to be help responsible where does it stop? It's a slippery slope. Do I need to use hardened steel plates which are far more than code allows? Well, I personally do on a lot of jobs but I also know how you cheapskate GC are too often. You won't pay the 30 bucks extra. You will say you'll just be careful... until this kind of thing happens.
I am also tired of the GC's who treat their subs like ####. I long ago quit working for any like that. And for the guys who have a contest on every house to see who can lose the most money to get your jobs. Then the GCs wonder why they get #### work and service. Guess what? My GCs get good work AND good service. But they pay for it too.
Don't give me all the crap about the lousy plumbers. Many of the ones I know are so bad they oughta be sh**. Or something. But I refuse to work for the common GC anymore either.
Long ago I got tired of the crap. There are enough bottom feeders to do your work. just save the whining when I am around because I know EXACTLY why you got that lousy work. When you are ready to pay a decent rate and treat your subs like business partners call me and we'll talk.
Oh, BTW, one of my last houses had a freak deal where they put a screw into one of my pipes. A severely angled screw at the base of the wall to stop a squeak. Glued and screwed so they didn't know what caused the squeak. Anyway... I did the repair for free. But for most of you with your attitude towards subs... FULL RATE! You take care of me and I'll go the THIRD MILE for you. Try to screw me out of every last penny... I won't touch your job.
My rant for the day is over. Those of you who are offended are the ones who I am speaking to. Those of you who are good GCs will not be offended because you know what I mean.
Attaboy!Excellence is its own reward!
A little touchy aren't we? I just glanced back through all the posts on this thread and where did anyone say anything about a lousy bleeping plumber. Most of the posts including mine said it was a tough break and perhaps you might catch a break from a friendly plumber who would share some of the responsibility. Clearly you have been run through the ringer by unscrupulous contractors just out to take advantage of your overly generous personality and therefore have no compassion left for the tradesmen who follows you.
The successful and profitable completion of any building or remodeling project is the results of the combined efforts of many different trades, tradespeople and personalities. In the end, the best projects are the ones where everyone comes away pleased; the contractor, the subs, the architect and the homeowner. We all know that this does not happen easily or by any means always. Certainly respect for each of the trades on the job helps. If you were offended by my comments, I apologize, but I can assure you that my plumber knows that on my projects not only is he trusted and respected, it is imperative that he trusts and respects the other trades as well.
I can recall a situation when I first started on my own (first job in fact) where I put several nails through a heat line running under a kitchen floor...nailing luan ply down for finish subfloor under vinyl tile. The plumber had been forced to run the pipes high to avoid other obstacles, it was under the subfloor (that had not been removed) and I did not realize it...no one did until months later when the heat came on. My plumber came back and helped me with the repair, not for free, but greatly discounted and I have never forgotten that. He made a friend and a customer for as long as he wanted my work. He knew that it was an honest mistake and did not want me to suffer unduly for it. Nice guy, taught me a lot about respecting others.
Thanks, my rant is over
Bill
Relax dude... read the second sentence where I said it was a rant in general.
This is a pet peeve among many of the better plumbers out there. Not just me. I find it interesting that it is the better plumbers who feel the way I do.
But there are good GCs. One I work for was a nice guy but I had to educate him how this all works. It was like a lightbulb went on. He is super to work for.
Nothing directed at you personally...
WHW- I certainly took no offence to your post. I have used this sub for previous jobs, and that is why I chose him. I harbor no ill feelings toward him at all.
To all- I fixed the plumbing yesterday, it wasn't all that difficult, and kinda fun. I like to look at these situations as life lessons. And by sharing with all of you, I have gained knowledge from your input. I don't post much on this board(mostly lurk), but am pleased by the response when I do. A great thanks to all who helped.
Now comes the fun part of replacing the drywall, I like to see just how perfect I can get it..LOL
Later, Mitch
Like I said it a generalized rant. Shucks... if you were going to eat it I would have been there for free.
As long as YOU do the sheetrock! LOL
My weakness is sheetrock. I tell anyone I have to open sheetrock for... "I will make a perfectly square hole with the cuts on the studs (or whatever) if you will replace it!
I pride myself on neat holes in sheetrock. I use a stud finder, steel square, straight edge, utility knife, sheetrock saw, and a PENCIL! No pens! LOL I learned that the hard way when I was 12 years old on a job with my dad.
When I build a house I will do everything except finishing the sheetrock and the carpet.
Having said all that I really understand the frustration GCs have with subs. When I see the butchering some "plumbers" do I cringe. There is one local guy who you can tell from the road if it was his job... the vents are ALL crooked. His GC asked me to bid a job last week. But this creep plumber is still bidding it. He (the GC) just wants a lower price. I laughed.
You made me laugh... because I would use the same excuse... and have... LOL
Actually helped a crew pour concrete one day under a similar excuse. I had nothing to do and they were short a hand. You wanna bet I wasn't babied on the rest of that job?
See, I am like everyone else. As much as I try to not be selfish I basically am. But the funny thing is when you GIVE you RECIEVE. May not be on that job or whatever... but you will. I believe this is one of the greatest mysteries in life.
My two cents
It was your fault for not using gasketed nails!
T
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