I’m currently bidding trusses on a large church job. It’s a rather large building, with a ton of 60′ piggyback trusses on it.
Unfortunately I’ve been involved in a few cases of buildings like this where a large series of trusses were not braced well when they were set, and they eventually fell over. So when I see jobs like this one I’m always a little leery.
I’m not really worried about liability. We notify builders that they need to brace the trusses adequately and send out bracing instructions with the trusses. I just don’t want to see anyone get hurt.
So what I’m wondering about is : How do you convince GCs to take bracing seriously?
It seems like when I talk to guys about bracing they get defensive. I get stuff like: “We’ve set trusses before – We know what we’re doing”. It’s like I’m insulting them, or like they think that I’m calling them stupid.
I want them to take the bracing seriously in order to protect their guys and save them TONS of wasted time and money. But I’m not sure how to get it across to them.
Any thoughts would be appreciated…
Why do they call it “Oriental Strand Board”???
Replies
Seems like someone in the truss industry would have made up a video of trusses collapsing, just to illustrate the problem.
And a copy of that video be given to the buyer.
I actually suggested that to the WTCA once. At the NAHB show they have sometimes set up elaborate and expensive displays showing that it's faster and cheaper to frame houses with components. They take a lot of pictures and videos of the events. I suggested setting up a building and video taping the trusses falling over. It would make one hell of an impression on people. But they've never taken the idea seriously..I don't know of any video that exists that show a series of trusses falling over. There's generally no one around when it happens. But if such a video exists it would definitely help get the point across.
If quizzes are quizzical, what are tests?
"I don't know of any video that exists that show a series of trusses falling over. There's generally no one around when it happens. But if such a video exists it would definitely help get the point across."
No one around with camera maybe, the volunteer non profesionals are usually there under the debris.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Yeah, I'm thinking of the video that the farm safety guys were showing many years back of a tractor pulling a load with the tow line wrapped around the axle instead of tied to a drawbar. That tractor flipped so fast it sure put the Fear of God in those guys who always said "I'd be able to let in the clutch before the tractor flipped."Anything on paper is theoretical. Show them a video, though, and it becomes real.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
boss..our BI always wants to see the bracing diagram...and he looks for the bracing when he inspectsi think you can end-run the GC by talking to the BIMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
".our BI always wants to see the bracing diagram..."
No BI and no Architect on this one. (And on most of the jobs I do)
In this case the owner is a church. They aren't gonna know squat about bracing if I brought it up with them.
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on it's shoes. [Mark Twain]
Find out who the chauirman is of the church building committee and introduce yourself. tell him you arte bidding the trusdses for the new building, and you want to help them get a good job. offer to put $20 in the collection plate."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Isn't that "pay for play"?
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
No, it's pay for pray."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
sometime you have to relize that its not your job to babysit everybody, I go through this daily.
There was a video on truss collaspes out there about 15-16 years ago. It also had a short peace on stud loading.
I had a friend that did some system work for a company that video taped seminars. The truss video was used in a building seminar the comapany was video taping. He got a copy to show me.
It was an eye opener to me. I can't say that I had set a ton of trusses back then, but like most other guys I thought I new what I was doing. I had even seen a small collasp on a job not far from one I was working, and like most guys thought it would not happen on my job because I had set enough to know whart I was doing. That video shot my confidence full of holes. From that point on I read and followed the generic and specific instructions with every truss package I have set. I know feel like I was just darn lucky for a lot of years.
I'll give the friend a call and see if he still has it in his collection of tapes or remembers anything about it, then post it here.
Thanks for the offer of checking on the video. That would be very helpful..I was talking to our engineers about this issue a few moments ago, and they knew of a recent occurrence not too far from here:http://www.herald-review.com/articles/2008/11/26/news/local/1037314.txtIt's too bad that a guy died in that one. Fortunately deaths aren't very frequent from falling trusses.
First say to yourself what you would be, then do what you have to do. [Epictetus]
Ron, check out this site:
http://www.tpic.ca/handling.htm
Down load the video. It is what you are looking for, I think.
Thanks, but - Websites won't help if they don't wanna listen. What I'm dealing with is guys who already think they know what to do.
Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
I think that video can be purchased. You could use it as a loner to the GC on bigger jobs.
I think I'm like a lot of guys, in that I wouldn't spend my money on a video of something I do a lot of. But if someone offered to loan me one, I would accept it and more than likely watch it. It is whole lot easier to sit at home and admit you aren't doing something right, than it is to admit it on the job with a bunch of guys watching you admit you aren't as smart as you are suupose to be.
That is what happened with me. I put a room addition on a friends son's house. I was the lead dog, so what ever I told the group of volunteer labors to do, they did. Things went well and the job was completed with no problems. It was several months later that the friend stumbled on the video and watched it. He was diplomatic enough to just offer to let me see it, rather than say "hey dummy, you don't really know jack about setting trusses. You could have gotten a bunch of good people hurt on that addition for my son." After I watched the video on my own, it was easy to say "hey Charlie, thanks for the video, I learned a lot. Man have I been lucky in the past! I wish I had seen that a long time ago."
I really don't think most GCs or guys in general are as hard headed as we think they are. It is a "man thing" , kind of like not admitting your lost while driving with you DW or significant other in the car with you. Ya just can't do it and maintain yer manly image, ya know. But by yourself in the same situation, you'll say "man I'm so lost I can't find my butt in the dark with both hands and a flashlight." You'll even tell a buddy about it someday, but never a woman.
Same thing with GC, crew foremen, and inspectors. Ya just got figure out a way to get them up tp speed without stepping on that tender male pride and have them swell up on you.
"What I'm dealing with is guys who already think they know what to do."For something like that probably the only thing to do is cover your legal ####. Maybe the delivery form or order form can have a place to sign off that includes language stating that they agree to brace according to instructions, blah, blah blah. That way, when they have the trusses, you have a paper to shop in court that you tried.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I believe that TJI used to have a video of a set of trusses collapsing .
Incident occurred in or near Cincinnati IIRC, some sports arena maybe?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Boss -
Some pictures and/or videos of collapsed trusses might be useful as part of your sales pitch - as well as the detailed warnings about bracing in your installation info.
After that, however, there's probably not much that you can do. Like someone once said (or should have, anyway) "You can lead a horse to water..............".
Tell them there is a new OSHA/inspector guy in the area and is looking for problems with truss setup and the like!
Here's what we suggest you do.
After the sale is made you mention this.
Edited 12/11/2008 11:40 am ET by USAnigel
Is there a weekly or biweekly project meeting with the architect, owner, contractor and subs? All of the commercial jobs I have been associated with have such a meeting. Show up at the meeting, tell them you want to confirm production and delivery schedules for the trusses, and then morph into a friendly discussion about bracing. I bet the archy and owner would back you 100%.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Ron, some people it takes a bit more convincing than the hand outs etc.
Years ago, in Bowling Green, Oh. Wood frame strip mall.
Walls framed and sheeted. They started trusses, maybe 1/2 done on a 150/200 ft long bldg.
That nite, big storm-wind, all trusses fall and collapse-end up in the bldg.
I drove by all week and watched as they pulled them out-salvaged I guess all or most of them because by the next mid week they started setting them again. They finished by Friday.
Noticed as I came home that nite-no/not much bracing-no plywood.
Stormed late Sunday nite. You guessed it-this time all down AND the end wall of the bldg down with it. Wished I had had a camera in those days.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Has the owner of the building been advised of the potential dangers and that the liability could ultimate end up in their lap. Could be that the owner is smarter than the GC.
Not that you really want to get them involved, but I'm surprised there are no specific OSHA rules regarding bracing trusses. Having OSHA people around or even the threat of it usually heightens the level of safety.
Another thought is that the client could write it into their specs. Especially if they thought that they might save money in the long run.
We don't see OSHA much around here. They seem to stay near the big towns and don't venture out into the sticks.
Don't steal. The government hates competition
Osha or your state osha might have some educational materials though
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ron, in Syracuse about 5 years ago we had trusses that weren't braced properly fail, collapse and they all came down. I believe they were made by Forest Products, if you want the name of the contractor, email me, he might have some pictures. I believe the local paper had some.
Sounds like a good time for your boss to sponsor a dinner or luncheon buffet combined with an educational spiel, a door prize, and some Miss Makita posters
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I have personally been on one site where we had a collapse, fortunatly it was only a few. I can honestly say that there isn't much that scares me, but unbraced trusses, I am getting the willies just thinking about it.
Ron,
Here's a little video from British Columbia on the basics. Maybe the contractor could be persuaded that his men should have alook.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=IALpipSsRQk
There's lots of news articles and warning sheets
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=TRUSSES+COLLAPSED&aq=f&oq=
Boss along with your Truss Bracing detail and instructions you could include a Truss Bracing Package made up of all the 2bies needed for bracing and painted SAFETY ORANGE and stenciled TRUSS BRACES (at extra costs of course) included in bid. Also include a copy of bracing instruction for each of the crew and a master sheet to be signed and returned to the driver.
Let the BI know what you have done so he can give a quick check. If he drives by and doesn't see those orange 2by4s Problems for somebody.
187,000 hits on Trusses in Google!!!!!
I have slung a few trusses and at first the old german bugger was brace and brace the first. and ran bracing as he went. 40 years later I was helping his son frame a 40X24 wide eves. the 10 foot walls were pre fabed.
He hired a pro-framer to do the roof. This guy was a monkey with a nail gun! Any way as I handed him the 2 and 1 bys up to him marked to 2 foot centers and fed the braces thru the right space he looked at me and said what crew to you work for I said no one just nice to see some one who knows the drill! Once the first 3 were in lock down we went like hell and got to watch the football game at 3:30.
A friend GC was doing a motel 6 years ago set trusses, lightning and rain made them run, big storm/massive winds+massive collapse OHS inspection, no bracing + no insurance + lost bond = royally screwed. No injuries thanks JFLucky!
So don't matter if it's the Knight of Columbus (my dad was a 4th degree) #### happens, cover your ####. make the framing leader sign a seperate contract need be.
Working for your self is good but risk management is also a good way to sleep well.
In Saskatoon SK yesterday a guy took off his fall harness and then fell 6 floors from a scaffold, dead and the guy he landed on is now upgraded to stable.
" Some times Gravity is your friend, some times not"
I could be wrong, but I don't think the building inspector can say anything if you elect to forgo temporary bracing. Permanent bracing, as specified in the stamped drawings, should be inspected at rough in inspection. But erection bracing is different, I think.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
They were building a church like that in Hancock, Mi. this fall and the whole thing fell over (not while they were setting the trusses)
I didn't have a camera or you could have a picture to show your church contractor.
For one thing, people don't realize the enormous effect of wind on trusses, especially if the ends are sheeted when they are installed.
I see at least one catostrophic truss collapse a year and it's always because the bracing wasn't adequate.
What's your role in the project?
You can specify proper bracing during erection per the manuf. recommendations. Ultimately, though it is their call and their liability. All you can do is encourage them to do it right.
"What's your role in the project?"
Supplying the roof trusses.
"You can specify proper bracing during erection per the manuf. recommendations."
We don't specfy erection bracing - We only provide guidelines.
"Ultimately, though it is their call and their liability. All you can do is encourage them to do it right."
Which was the whole point of this thread - How to get the point across.
I don't give a damn about liability. I just don't wanna see anyone get hurt or killed.
So many lawyers, so few bullets.
Provide written "strong encouragement" to provide proper temporary bracing to provide a safe erection environment. Just thinking out loud/providing maybe another point of view. Good luck.
When I was working for a grain elevator, the state extension service had safety seminars on grain explosions, confined spaces and general safety. They had some kind of cheap lunch before the program. The company sent us to cover their assets . The yr. before I worked there, they lost a worker in a grain suffication incident. I think it ended up costing the co. a pretty good settlement.
In another place I worked, the insurance co. sent a guy out who did a nice presentation on saftey.
Maybe you could sponsor a cooperative venture between ins. co.s, state agencies, vendors, etc. to do some kind of program. Free food during the work day creates some interest.
However, there is nothing that will save an idiot.
Boss,
Here's a question for you. I hope this is not an unwelcome diversion from the point of your thread.
Typically, I see spreader bars called for on trusses >30'. However, I cannot recall ever seeing a spreader being used on a residential job. Maybe on large commercial trusses, but not on lowly residential sites.
I don't want to come across as one of those guys who, after being given an instruction, asks "did you really mean that?". But I can't help wondering if the spreader bars are overkill. If they are essential, than I would say that 98% of the larger homes around here have compromised roof systems.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Regarding speader bars - The erection and bracing recommendations made by the WTCA and TPI are awfully conservative. I'm guessing that they deliberately wrote them up that way because there were so many accidents. Like they figure that if they make ultra-conservative recommendations then people will do a better job in the field? But it's just speculation. .I've personally set 40' trusses without a spreader bar and had no problems. But that's my limit. If you get over 40' I think a small spreader bar (maybe 16' wide or so) is a really good idea. The basic function of the spreader bar is to keep the trusses from folding in half - Lifting from the peak typically won't damage the trusses otherwise.If someone is setting trusses 60' long (or longer) without a spreader bar they're really tempting fate. Trusses that long can fold in half easily and drop off the crane's hook. Anybody who has a 300# truss fall on their heads is toast. And you KNOW they'll be lifting those things over people's heads.When you get up to trusses that are 70' long they're about as ridgid as a piece of copier paper standing on edge. You're getting into some pretty serious stuff there.Those are my thoughts in a nutshell. I can go into it in more detail if ya want.
I took an I.Q. test and the results were negative.
Trusses that long can fold in half easily and drop off the crane's hook. Anybody who has a 300# truss fall on their heads is toast. And you KNOW they'll be lifting those things over people's heads.
BTDT. Fortuantely knowone was under the one that broke and the choker was aroundtwo web braces, it didn't come crashing to the ground. I was on a tag line outside the building and wipped into a block wall before a could let go of it. 60'-4", 2x6 truss and it snapped like a potato chip as it was being swung over the 20' tall wall.
One of my very early and lucky days in the trade.
Boss,Thanks for the reply.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA