Going back to a thread that faded away at the turn of the year. YCFriend discussed briefly mixing PVA & plaster of paris in mud to do a finish coat on an entire wall. I sent him an e-mail asking further questions – he suggested posting it here so everyone could benefit from the info.
I like your ideas on mixing the PVA primer, plaster of Paris & mud for doing walls. The way I read your last post, you mix a fairly thin, runny mixture of half a gallon of PVA w/ 3 gal of mud & a cup of PoP then roll it on the entire wall. What length nap do you use? Does it flatten out? Sounds like it nearly becomes slick as glass. That’s what I’d really like. Need a hint on details of application. I’ve been working to smooth out all the dings & dents then putting on a layer of Sheetrock First Coat by USG. It is pretty thick, and doesn’t really lay flat after rolling it. Still see a lot of roller texture. What does such a small amount of PoP do? Doesn’t seem like it would harden it up much at all w/ only a cup in nearly 3.5 gal of muck.
How far does 3.5 gal of this mixture go? I have a 22X24 living room to do – walls & ceiling. Also have a BR & a kitchen, but they are much smaller.
Appreciate any help you can give me.
Don
Replies
Bump, nudge, shove, all of the above.
Don
Good Morning Don,
I make a similar mixture to "smooth" out walls that would cost too much to float out or replace.
Honestly, the recipe changes every time, but always includes Plus 3 mud, whatever kind of latex primer I have around, and a handful or two of fast dry mud mix to make it set a little faster.
When it is thin/ thick enough for me, I roll it out with a 3/4 or 1/2 " roller, depending on how much texture will be acceptable. Sometimes I knock it down after it sets a bit.
I like the idea of making a smooth, roll-on feathered primer coat. We have 3 entire units in a 4 plex condo project to complete. I know that my rough recipe will suffice in the rear stairwell, but I will try a smoother blend in one the upcoming rooms and post the results when they happen.
We are on our 4th drywall finisher on this project. I can't believe a guy doesn't want to make $20./hr and get paid EVERY week just to do a decent job.
Good Luck. Ricky
Don,
I could use similar advice from YCFriend. I'm working on a 100 year old house and would like to use this recipe to coat the existing plaster walls and then follow with a primer coat of the SW Builder's Solution.
I suppose I'll just have to try a wall and see what happens. I'm looking for a smooth finish so it might be more of a challenge for a beginner than a textured look.
I too wonder about the small amount of plaster of paris in the mix. Guess we need to trust YCFriend on this one and give it a try.
Edited 1/11/2005 8:40 am ET by WIVELL
haven't tried it myself yet, but, ran into a guy a while back that swore by using a wide trowel with a rubber squeege like edge on it to smooth out textured walls or walls that were all messed up from removing wallpaper
Here is a link to the trowel he mentioned
http://www.texmaster.com/
Thanks for the link Shoe. That Video makes it look so easy... I just might have to give this a try. I would like to see what YCFriend has to say about this, do you think it looks EZ :-)Thanks for bringing this topic back to life Don.
Thanks Shoeman. After reviewing the website, I think I'll get one of the kits with a 12" and 22" blade and give it a shot. Looks to be a little more forgiving than a regular steel trowel.
Anyone have comments on the adhesion of the D-mix to bare plaster walls? We are scrapping off all paint & wallpaper layers down to bare plaster and I thought I read something previously about adhesion issues between joint compound and the finish coat of plaster. Maybe the plaster of paris takes care of this?
Edited 1/11/2005 11:12 am ET by WIVELL
Hi Don.
Tonight I will go over the whole D-Mix again. Until then we can learn from others and other techniques.
YPF EZ Dino
Edited 1/11/2005 11:35 am ET by YCFriend
Hi Don.
I just visit the site referred by Shoeman and I saw the video. I like the magic trowel and the paint roller technique. If they use some special compound that is forgiving and you can re-work the same materials until the wall is perfect smooth..then they have a good system.
The D-mix is made from Joint Compound (the plus 3 is better)
and latex primer (PVA is better) I will start with one 5 gallon JC and one gallon of primer. But i will only mix 1/2 of the joint compound 2 1/2 gallons with 1/4 to 1/3 of a gallon primer. EZ to mix.
When the mix takes a uniform color from the primer I will add one coffee cup (small and only 75%-80% full). Of plaster of paris.(pop)
Then I will use a 3/4" heavy nap 100% lamb skin roller. The stucco roller works too.
The benefit of the D-Mix is that you can apply it with a roller and you can make it smooth (Re-work the same materials to a smooth finish) with a taping knife or even better you can get the magic trowel from the above link.
You need to spend few hours and learn the technique that is better for you to make the finish smooth. I think if you try the magic trowel with the D-mix you can start your own business in few days.
YPF EZ Dino.
Dino: Thanks. I think that from all this poop I can get this mess sorted out. Are all the real DW finishers that read this site giving birth to longhorn Texas Steers? That magic trowel sounds like heresy to me. Purists should be really shocked that anyone would use anything other than a real steel trowel.To show my total ignorance, what is "Plus 3" mud?I have been finishing a 135 degree inside angle joint in the headwall above the stairwell - a real pain in the hemorrhoids trying to establish a straight line between the two wall surfaces. I finally found a piece of vinyl strip w/ straight edges that I screwed to the wall to establish a guide for my knife to follow. A few screw holes are easy to fix if it gives me a straight joint. My skill w/ a 12" knife leaves something to be desired, so I welcome some way of leaving a smooth surface. The rubber squeegee sounds like it.Thanks for the help.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Don. The D-mix makes the job Ez.You can use any trowel but trying something new sometimes holds the answer to the EZ Road.
The "plus 3" is just another ready mix JC. And is available everywhere. (Blue bucket)
Try it and tell us how it works for you.
See you and good luck.
EZ Dino
YCF,
What's the advantage of the plus 3 / blue bucket JC over others? I have about 6 black buckets (I think it's all purpose) I'd like to use up. Do I need to add more PVA primer or plaster of paris to this stuff?
Also, no problems for this D-mix adhering to old plaster I assume.Thanks for your help.
Scott
You can use any JC for the D-mix. They all work fine.
The "Plus 3' works even better.
Good luck
YCF
I noticed the "blue bucket" at lunch time today is the lite JC.
Maybe I should just thin out my mix a bit more.
YC,
Your in Edison abnd I'm in Woodbridge..next time you are using your D-Mix e-mail as I would like to see the technique and the result. Better to see it firsthand then to experiment!
Hi Zano. Sorry my friend but if you don't try it ...you never learn it.
YCF is no more in this business. If he was ...you never learn it too.
See you.
EZ Dino
YC Buddy,
No time for experimentation! Watsa matter, you afraid to show it firstshand. I still think that joint compound and plaster don't mix..read the labels! Seems to me like a witches brew I'll believe it when I see it done by someone else.
Zano my friend.
OK.
EZ Dino
I've been mixing the two for about 25 years now with great results and never any kind of failure. But you make up your own mind.
I was wonderin if one of us would chime in. I was undecided letting this thing run its course. Now, were both in here.
I dont know jack squat about plaster paris, but what would it do?
The serious sideways nod is the plus three. Its too soft for texture, unless the paris has some reaction. But even then the regular joint compound makes a more durable surface. Hes been asked several times and wont answer only that it works better. Not good enough when I know that plus three is inferior as a texture in the first place.
Tim Mooney
My concern is that joint compounds and plaster have been formulated and tested for certain properties and characteristics. My old neighbor who was instrumental in developing the first synthetic oils (Mobil 1) said to me never to add an oil additive such as STP. He said that they spend years testing a formula and that their aim is to develop the best product for that purpose. Then when someone throws an STP into his oil it changes the entire formula, the "new oil" does not pass the test. This is similar in what is going on here. Sure adding an oil additive to the oil will not kill the engine, but it does harm it in the long run. The engine wowuld be better off without the additive.
Plus 3 is a light mud and should not be used for taping because it does not bind well to the papers like the all purpose does. Also it has too many pinholes. If YC's brew works I think it would be far better to use the all purpose mud since plaster does not hold well on regular drywall. Now since he is using Plus 3 and the plaster, the question becomes just how well this brew clings to the drywall?
It may work, but is the optimum or the best way to get a non-photographing drywall job..that's all that I'm questioning. There are other ways to get a real good job, just wondering if buying 3 ingredients, mixing them, etc. is too labor intensive. Heck, I'd just spray on a coat of Tuff-Hide and get it over with real quick and thus save lots of labor time. Thius would be ideal for alarge job, but perhaps for a bathroom YC's brew works. Just wanted to see it for myself, but still questioning the adherence of this brew to the drywall.
"Plus 3 is a light mud and should not be used for taping because it does not bind well to the papers like the all purpose does. Also it has too many pinholes. If YC's brew works I think it would be far better to use the all purpose mud since plaster does not hold well on regular drywall. Now since he is using Plus 3 and the plaster, the question becomes just how well this brew clings to the drywall?"
I already knew , you and I knew what plus three is for and what it is not . It does not have sufficient binders in it for taping , metal first coat , or wall texture. It is a finishing mud thats light weight in pans and boxes and distributes itself from boxes very well. Several years ago when it first came out there were some jobs textured with it. It didnt take long to figgure out that leaning doors and cabinet plywood against it marred it easily. It doesnt even have enough binders in it to hold as wall texture very well and I cant understand anyone using it as such. There are splatters made that do well and thats what they are made to do, but joint compund holds better.
Back to my question . What would plaster paris do?
Your comment about STP may be like using liguid soap in mud for boxing. Soap definately alters the mud , but it serves a purpose intended. Ive also heard of mixing deisel with mortar to keep it from freezing which I question as well. But it does serve the purpose intended. While we are on the subject I mentioned mixing latex paint and joint compound together years ago right here. Of course since then its changed to viynl primer. Tuff Hide has now came out and it works with less labor as you mention , but its "high" considering the coverage rate. Depends on the job I guess, but too rich for apartments. I can spray the mud/paint almost as well , but a lot cheaper. We both know that mix wasnt meant to be , but it works.
I would also like to see the paris used . I still dont understand its intended purpose. Im not going to do it unless I understand what Im trying to do.
Tim Mooney
Back to my question . What would plaster paris do?
I don't know..all I know is that a few years ago I was playing with plaster, one batch was plaster of paris and the other molding plaster, and it definitely does not stick to regular drywall (non-blueboard). Maybe this D-Mix ia A-1..still would like to see demo and then compare the labor time and quality achieved to other products with similar objective.
Back to my question . What would plaster paris do?
I think I am getting a grasp of this whole D-mix business. Dino uses the PVA as a thinner to thin down the mud so that it can be applied as said. Also the PVA promotes the adhesion to the drywall. The plaster of paris is a foritfier. It sets up pretty quickly if you just mix it with water, within 10-15 minutes but when it is mixed with mud or some fine solid particles in suspension it sets up even faster, probably within 5 minutes because the suspended particles in mud act as foci for the setting of the plaster.
That's the reason why the formula calls for so little amount of Plaster of Paris otheriwse you'll have globs of set PoP in the mix even before you put it on the wall. You can think of PoP used this way is a hardened filler and that's why it can be polished like veneer plaster as Dino said.
That all sounds fine and dandy in theory, I'd really like to see it in action though.
to all,
I have a simple question----so simple I feel like a total idiot for asking it
but
how the heck do you guys actually get the roller to work????---special roller or what?????
I have tried this a number of times, and the roller doesn't really roll----It just pushes and smears the mud around on the ceiling. Very poor coverage.
Are you applying the mud with the roller----or spraying it on and finishing with a dry roller?
Also----say you are doing only a small ceiling 12'x14'------would you bother to set up a sprayer for that small of a job???
thanks,
Stephen
This is where the technique comes in and the only way is practice.
One roller dip should give you a 16 sq, feet of coverage. One 4x4 section.
You use 3/4 " lamb skin and you thin the D-Mix to a rollable thickness.
If you apply it uniform with the roller is much EZier to make it smooth with any trowel.
The problem that you have is that you're applying the mix in one spot and then you're trying to cover a section. If you apply the mix in few spots before you start rolling then is much EZier.
We have develop other EZier ways and special tools but the market is not there in order to invest any time or money. And get the magic trowel from a previews link. I think this may be EZier than a regular tape knife or trowel. (for some)
But you have enough to go from without any special tools or materials.
I think we cover this D-Mix stuff and ..good luck to all.
YCF EZ Dino
thanks for the tip DINO,
I was using to fine a nap roller cover, with the mud mix to heavy.
That was keeping the roller unbalanced so it wouldn't spin properly.
I appreciate the tip,
Stephen
Did you use to use a mud/primer mixture.I remember some discussions from you, but not the details.
Bill, Ive always [30 yrs] used a paint mud mix. When they came out with pva primer I switched to that . The reason I started using it was emamel used on walls with sheen. I liked it and realized how cheap and effective about hiding qualities it had. It doesnt require quite the finishing or sanding job to aquire a smooth finsih. I did the painting and the finishing so it was a win win. Also I saved on the material bill. I spray it with a pump unit and roll it out . The newest thing out is the thick primer we spray and leave , but it comes at a high price figgureing the high useage. Joint compound /pva primer mix comes in around 3 dollars per gallon mixed. Another mix painters often used is block filler which lays out well, but comes at a price . It takes at least a 1 gallon per minute bull dog graco pump to spray it and is hard on rings , sleeve and pistion. I spray both with an auger pump and high out put compressor to make it "paint " on the surface, then roll it out. The mud does take a light sweep sanding, as where the the new thich primers and block fillers lay out with out any sanding.
Tim Mooney
Hey Mr Tim...
I just blasted thru 2 bedroms, kitchen, bathroom and living room... (walls and cielings)
did my usual bed and 2nd coat in one application...
the mud dried lookin' life 50 grit paper.. suspect the mud had been frozen even though the HO says no way.....
can't locate topping mud or light wieght anyplace around here.. (40 mile radius) only GP...
what's plan "B"???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I finished a lot of houses with joint compound .
Gotta go to the cabin . See ya Monday.
Tim Mooney
Thank you for saying that! I am working on finishing a wall. Is the compound better than the d-mix? Or is it the same "stuff"?
This thread was ran in Jan and Feb .
Lets back up and go again. Which statement are you talking about I made . And what are you doing to a wall?
Tim
I am referencing the message 52472.32 Dated Jan. 15th, regarding your use of joint compound for finishing a project.
I had a hole in the wall 6' x 3' It has been covered up by a piece of dry wall. Taped and covered with joint compound. I want the entire wall to have a smooth surface. This is where my question regarding d-mix (which I just don't understand) begins. It just seems like the joint compound would do the job.
The wall is in a 15' x 13' bathroom. The current walls are textured with enamel paint.
But, I don't know if this is the right product to use. When the wall is finished, I want to paint it. NO wallpaper.
Thank you so much for your response.
Isabelle
Ok, just didnt want to get caught unprepared for comment .
I still havent used DMix because I dont understand its properties. Ive asked the questions and havent got good answers. Several here have tried it I think. That said , Ive always done the same thing with mud and primer . Plaster of Paris is not approved for drywall according to USG. I called and the guy said , Do what ? He was a chemist. There are people around swaring by it but Im not . Theres an old deal about putting soap in mud to make it slicker but I wouldnt do that either becuse I know what soap is for and its not going to break down properties in my mud and void a warranty with them. Thats about all Ill comment on DMix.
Regular joint compound preferablly USG mixed with vinyl primer will give a primer coat and a cover coat to bridge over several different things. I commonly always use it on what you are working on because the new drywall wont match the old thats been finished and painted already. The mud is a great way to blend it in and provide an even wall that will be ready for enamels if you choose.
Tim
You are so AWESOME! Your reply was exactly what I was hoping for. You are well thought out! Unlike me, I just continue to have a truck load of questions.
Now, this vinyl primer you are speaking of. Is it some sort of paint? Or a plastic liquid? How much do I use relative to the compound?
Isabelle
Its the topic discussion above sold in paint stores and home centers. For some reason the title of the thread is not what its about . Oh well. Pva primer is a paint sold as an undercoat on new drywall to prime it before top coats. However it does not mask much but joint compond will of course because we have used it as a texture for years and is outstanding at adherring to drywall and by design different textures. Weve been using it over drywall for years and years. 40 years for me at using joint compound as a texture which started here in the 60s with a swirl finish on ceilings with a 4 to 6 inch brush. Its a proven and vested performer. However , its not a primer to say that it doesnt mask as such for precoat to enamels . For years it was used as undercoat to flat paints which worked . When Mrs Homeowner started buying eggshells, semis and glosses , problems developed becuse those paints need a masking primer to mask and prime before applying them which they didnt know . Then came the introduction of vinyal primers. Now they still have a problem becuse those primers arent high build so they now make high build primers that are rolled and sprayed. They are built however for the best results to be sprayed for high production and should be respected as such products.
I didnt invent the mix I use as its been around since 1960 that I know about. They used to mix it back then for a one coat ceiling finish. With out mixing paint and mud together in that process it remained a two coat function. Im sure someone said , hey why not mix them together and lets get out of here. Good idea, so you mix the left over mud you already have on hand with the flat paint and geter done . However since vinyl primer has been introduced , its been a better product to use.
The mix portion is up to your preference for the" texture" . 25 percent joint compound to the paint is about the least I use with primer and provides a slick finish. However I have done a lot of 1 gallon primer to a 4 gallon box mix for high builds. You wont hurt it what ever mix you do but it will matter to what you want to do.
Thanks for the comment , but its not deserving as its just information thats been around for a lot of years.
Tim
You are much too humble. Info may have been around for years, but you are guiding me through to obtaining it, and I certainly do appreciate that!
I really do thank you for taking so much time out to assist me!
Won't have time to work on this project till next week. Good thing because this week it's been raining and next it'll be sunny and 80+ degrees! That will help that stuff dry sooner!
Again, thank you so, so very much!!!!!!!!!!
Isabelle
I still havent used DMix because I dont understand its properties. Ive asked the questions and havent got good answers.
Hahahahaha! Join the crowd! This is starting to get funny again!
Tim, don't be afraid to add a little dishsoap. I used some from a bucket where a guy had put so much in that I could do dishes with the mud, but the mud is still stuck to the wall quite nicely.
blue
This is where my question regarding d-mix (which I just don't understand) begins
Hahahahahaha! Join the crowd!
I should warn you though, don't ask or keep trying to understand. If you do, I might have to get my sides stiched up.
blue
54559.1
First weekend of April. Sat. 11.00 AM
53 National road
Edison NJ. 08817.
Free classes on D-Mix.
why not have it on the first friday of april ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Why not?
cause it's April Fools Day !
how are your plans for JLC ?
getting ready to do a lot of EZ , i've got to glue up some oak super treads for a winder stairway
as for the D-mix.. it seems to me to be an elegant solution for a level 5 finish..
but it's kind of a moot point around here, since everything is skim-coat palster anywaysMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
cause it's April Fools Day !
Wait until you order some stuff. You got me twice already.
JLC. No time to call them yet. Yes. I know.
as for the D-mix.. it seems to me to be an elegant solution for a level 5 finish..
Believe me Mike. Is level 10.
but it's kind of a moot point around here, since everything is skim-coat palster anyways
I use veneer plaster many times. Diamond. The D-mix gives you the same finish but no cracks or blisters. Not as strong as the veneer but much EZier to apply and none of the veneer problems. But if you can find a pro to do veneer plaster,GO for it. Is the best money spend in your house.
The D-Mix was the answer to have all my guys working instead ...looking at me. And the most "money making" trade over the years.
Hope i see you at JLC.
Got it marked on my calender and thanks for the invite!
I have a stupid question- if you use the thinned mud compound (mixed with PVA primer) for tape joints, is it hard to sand. I would think the introduction of Latex into the mix would be a pain to sand through....
But, I'll bet I'm missing something. I have some drywall work/ repairs on my schedule for the weekend and am intrigued to try this method.
Anything I should avoid?
I knew a guy who came up doing three coat plaster jobs who used a top coat some times similer to the one dino is refering to, can't rember the proportions but it contained no pva primer... was just green top and structo light ( kind of like plaster of pairs ), he thought of it as a kind of hot mud that had some of the better qualities of plaster ( like it could be polished and set up fairly quick )
maybe that is what the plaster dose in the dino mix, makes the plaster set quicker and allows polishing withough blistering.
james
That was very smart to play with a "stupid question"
in order to learn something new.
The non stupid answer to the non stupid question is... EZ.
But I will not use the D-Mix on the first coat if you're using paper tape.
But if you use fiberglass use only the D-mix.One of the benefits is that you can apply as many coats as you need in few hours instead days. The plaster of paris sets the mix (like durabond) and the primer makes it like butter.
And unlike durabond and JC you can rework the same materials like Venner plaster for as long as you needed but without the plastering skills required for the veneer plaster.
Good luck with the D-mix. If you guys like it then I may start making some
EZ Smart D-mix tools and special supplies so I can have something to pimp.
You say something about sandpaper? The whole idea is "not" to use sandpaper.
EZ Dino.
YCBuddy,
Come on man..meet me at the Reo and I'll buy you breakfast and then you can show this to me and I swear I won't give the formula away.
Zano. The formula was given already. Ok. 95% of it but still works perfect.
If and when the D-mix becomes popular,then you will see the Super D-Mix with 100% of the brew on the label and the associated tools to go with it.
very-very-EZ
Until then spend few minutes and try it. It works...EZ.
Stop over the machine shop any time if you have the time.And bring some tools and materials.
EZ Dino
Minor hijack. Just saw an interesting gadget in Tool Crib (Amazon) link below. It is a gadget to stick in a box to mark it for cutting drywall or panelling. For small remodelling jobs something like this might be easy to make for yourself. Have used chaulk, sharpie, whatever and cussed those who used lipstick.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000691RAW/qid=1105492729/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-8894388-4530318?v=glance&s=kitchen
I tried online to find the Magic trowel at any of the sites linked in the Tex Master site with no luck. Called the company and the folks were very helpful. Think this tool may be great. They said they are looking at concrete finishing too.