Second attempt at posting photo:
As you can see, the previous owner decapitated my house by eliminating the third floor space (two bedrooms and a full bath). We have a second-story staircase that leads to no where.
What style roof would be appropriate on this 1903 3200 sf home. Any idea on the style of architecture.
Where do I start: with a roofer or framer? Is there a huge cost differential between a hip/gambrel/mansard roof when starting from scratch?
What type of questions should I be prepared to ask?
Thanks!
Edited 5/14/2002 3:26:10 PM ET by Tracy
Edited 5/14/2002 3:27:28 PM ET by Tracy
Replies
I'm more than a little curious...what happened to the old roof? Or more correctly, what's keeping the 2nd floor dry?
What the previous owners did was put roofing material over a non-existing frame. Surprisingly, the second floor is dry, shy of two very small areas that show staining but not any substantial leaking.
Of course, my assumtion is that the remaining area is dry....I hope. I imagine that there would still be a tremendous amount of work to do to restore the third floor area. If any of you have insight into this type of project, I would appreciate your comments.
Thank you.
Tracy
I'm even more curious -- what happened to your local building inspectors? Did the previous owners bury them all in the back yard? Out here there'd be fines, citations, litigation, orders to fix it up, orders to tear it down....
-- J.S.
John,
I agree 100%. I can't imagine that the home ever passed inspection. My thoughts are that the 'decapitation' occurred during a time when the area was greatly depressed, though it has a tremendous amount of historical significance (area developed 3/4 mile from the 1904 St. Louis Worlds Fair grounds in 1903)
This is in an urban area which is now experiencing a renaissance and many potential home owners are accepting these horrid conditions because many of the homes are between 4000-8000 square feet and they can purchase them for a song ($45,000-$100,000).
It is certainly unattractive, but we are committed to renovating/remodeling because we love the city and just a half a mile away, homes are selling for $250,000-$1.2 million...an area that also had it's own challenges, but went through a similar renaissance.
It is important to remember that 'American Foursquare' is a genre and not a style. Your house, with paired classical columns, falls into the Neoclassical Revival category of American Foursquare, to be more precise. Thus, it would be appropriate to incorporate some classical details into the reconstruction. You might also see if you can find some period photos to see what it looked like, or check with some of the folks that have lived nearby for some time.
In any case, a hipped roof with four hipped dormers and some classical detail would be appropriate. You might consider using a tripartite window in the front dormer that echoes the proportion of the center openings. Get rid of the 'picking out' of detail (someone painted the rondels black over the columns).
T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
Edited 5/16/2002 5:49:19 PM ET by Jeff Clarke
Jeff,
Thanks for the comments. I now feel armed with information that gives direction to this redo. I have never heard of the neoclassical revival/american foursquare. This certainly gives me a new area to search.
Let us not even begin to detail what the previous owners did to this poor house! If only the 'picking out' were the least of all, I would be in great shape!
I appreciate your assistance, thanks again.
Tracy
Have I seen that house on Capital Hill in Seattle? I used to walk my dog past one just like it.
Price difference for the new roof? Some, but not much. Price difference per square foot of usable space? Yes, because of the different amounts of headspace under different options.
Conversely, more living space means more flooring, doors, sheetrock, wiring, etc. and that is where more money will be spent, compared to the roof framing and sheathing.
David,
Funny you should mention Seattle...my favorite city in the US, but no, this is in St. Louis, MO.
Thank you for your comments. The first two floors are just over 1500 sf. I assume that the same amount of space is available on the third floor...I know nothing about construction, so I figure that the floor/ceiling joist can handle the weight of a whole floor redo.
We would like a master bedroom suite with a sitting area, walk-through closets, master bath and an office, whew!. If all the space is available, I'm sure that we have enough space to acomodate those features.
I'm excellent at 'sourcing' materials (i.e. tile, carpet, fixtures, doors, etc.) at local discount shops around town. I should be able to keep those types of cost down, but I don't want to skimp on craftsmanship...that's where I would prefer a skilled laborer. But again, does a carpenter or a framer or a remodeling company do this type of work?
Thanks,
Tracy
My opinion, FWIW, the house looks like a couple different things, but mostly like an American Foursquare to me. The typical roof would be a hip roof with hip roofed dormers facing front and back. The dormers usually would be one or two windows wide.
I agree, American Foursquare.
If the roof would be to shallow (i.e, not enough headroom inside) if built to a proper proportion, you could always bring it up to a flat square at the top to steepen the pitch.
Add a lot of filigreed brackets under the soffits and put a windowed cupola at the top of the roof and you've got a wannabe Italianate ;-)
Another look might be a regular two gable roof (gabels facing the sides) and add two peaked dormers.
What did happe to the roof?Steelkilt Lives!
Jim,
Thanks for the comments. I would like to go with a Hipped/Mansard roof to acomodate the headroom issue. The house is 40x38. If a gable roof was added, I think I would lose a tremendous amount of usable square footage.
A neighbors house (similar in style and proportion) has a mansard roof and they have five rooms on their third floor.
I like the Italiante wannabe look...I just may go with that. Oh, by the way, a fire destroyed a portion of the third floor and the owners didn't want to or couldn't pay to have the roof replaced properly.
Tracy
Nick,
Thanks for your comments. I agree that it looks like an American Four Square. However, folks have sent me on web-searches to look at Colonial Revival, Southern Colonial, even Italianate! All of which I see elements reflected in this home. Most of the American Four Square homes that I have seen seem to have an "Arts and Crafts" element to them, where as my home seems to be much less ornate.
I was told that during a certain period of American architecture, homes were built by the 'prevailing standard' much more so than a particular style. Hence my home and possibly other homes are a hodgepodge of architecture.
I'll seach more for American Four Square to get a better idea of where to go with this remodel...including how to redo the porch.
Thanks,
Tracy
Tracy: Been to St Louis many times - son lives there. Probably seen your house. There are a lot of really neat houses in various states of decay all over the city. Good luck.
If you want max liveable volume under new roof, try a gambrel - but w/ a twist . Make it hipped on each end. Keeps it from looking like a barn. Also, put appropriate dormers on front. Labor is atrocious, since it is a complicated structure. Also makes quite a profit for G-P, or whoever you buy your lumber from. Lots of storage space behind knee walls at break in roof. Insulate w/ sprayed on foam on underside of roof deck.
Don
Don,
That style roof sounds exactly like the type of roof I want, I just didn't know what to call it. Thanks for the advice.
Edited 5/21/2002 4:58:14 PM ET by Tracy
If you hip the uppermost part of the gambrel it would be called a 'jerkinhead' gambrel.T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
Jeff,
I can't picture hipping upper part of a gambrel. Do you know of any web-sites that may show an example?
I thought the previous writer was suggesting hipping the gable/gambrel(?) sides, not the upper part...my mistake.
I'll do a search of jerkinhead gambrel to see if I get any hits.
Thanks,
Tracy
Tracy
I would tend to favor a colonial revival, depending on usable third floor space. Definite architectual design material.
A point of logistics though....often those third floor attic spaces did not have adequate floor joists to support live loading, and thus require sistering beefier joists or other structural strategies...but my point is that getting those long structural members up there will be a whole lot easier with the roof off. Another logistical consideration....don't know what the weather forcasts are for the St. Louis area, but I think my first priority would be a temporary roof cover while I'm researching/contemplating a roof architectual style.
BruceM
Bruce,
Thanks for the advice. Are you favoring Colonial Revival for the current style of the home, or for the future style?
I had similar thoughts regarding the floor/ceiling joist, that's why I didn't know if the entire floor was usable.
I have been in the home just over a year. We are just now financially able to start the renovation/remodeling process. There is roofing material over the home, so leaks are at a minimum. Do you suggest still putting something over the roof? If yes, what? I don't know the proper covering (tarp?) to protect the roof.
Thanks,
Tracy
Edited 5/20/2002 12:34:10 PM ET by Tracy
Tracy: I mean a FULL hip of the gambrel - lower and upper slopes. My carpenter about birthed a full-grown steer, horns & all, when he saw that. We have a dormer in the end and two dormers on each side. On a 24X40 ft base, we have lost only 3 ft all the way around from the slope of the lower roof section.
As I see your house, it is square - hence if you did this treatment to the roof, it would be two pyramids stacked on the top of your house. The lower-sloped pyramid would truncate the steeper sloped pyramid about 8 ft up from the eaves. Look really neat.
Sorry I can't attach a photo - I haven't figured out how to get pictures out of my digital camera yet.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Don,
I rarely laugh out loud, but I did upon reading your comments about your carpenter!! I agree, the roof is SHOCKING to say the least!!
I had satellite service installed yesterday and I was sooooo afraid of the installers walking on the roof...thought it might cave in. Oddly enough, it was very sturdy (their comments).
I really wish I could see the type of roof you are referring to. I should be able to give the description to a carpenter and he/she should be able to decipher the look that you are speaking of.
Tracy
Edited 5/21/2002 12:37:42 PM ET by Tracy
Tracy: The photo of the Bent Pyramid is right on for what it would look like. You can make the angles of the roof anything you want. Make the top section flat, and you have a Mansard. If you don't want to see the top section from the street, calculate what that angle should be and go for it. If it is framed correctly, it consists of two right triangles standing on their short side and an isosceles triangle sitting atop the other two triangles. The secret is to make the side triangles stiff enough and anchored well enough to the floor system that the ridge joint between the two roof surfaces sees minimum moment. My carp managed to do it. You really need I joists spanning the entire ceiling w/ the top roof section rafters anchored very well to the joist ends. That keeps the top roof section from transmitting horizontal thrust to the top vertices of the two isosceles triangles.
Hope that helps, rather than confuses.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Thgis sort of four sided gambrel sounds like a mansard roofed italienete to me. Try a search for that phrase to see pictures.Excellence is its own reward!
Try a search for that phrase to see pictures
Or go to Burger King and look at a burger box!T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
OK Jeff, what am I missing today?
Excellence is its own reward!
That's pretty much what I thought, as well. I have seen an Mansard roof on an Italianate home and it looked very attractive.
Now, to ornament my rather plain home in the Italianate style without overwhelming the very simple detailing. Though female, I'm not very fond of the very 'curly-cue' look of some Victorian (Italianate) homes. Additionally, the home has a very colonial revival interior....large center hall, grand stair case, palladian style window at stair landing, etc.
Any suggestions?
Three ways to decorate;
Shape
Detail
Colour
You know your shape now.
Pick details from books and stock materials according to taste and budget or buy an architect and turn him loose.
colour can be the least expensive way of detailing and decorating. One of the leading interior design firms in the world, Colfax and Fowler of London, got its start in the post WW2 days when materials and cash were in dreadfully short supply. They focused primarily on colours for accent and fabrics for depth. Both were available and affordable.
Nowadays, some foam architectural trims can be very afforable and a good painter's wages can strip the finish off your checkbook faster than fish stink so colour is not always the cheapest way to go.
Your home, your money, your decision, and most important - your satisfaction! Have fun.
Excellence is its own reward!
I was a bit unclear in posing my previous question...I really meant how to ornament the exterior of my home in a conservative, yet attractive Italianate fashion.
The interior is the least of my concerns at this time due to the amount of remodeling work that needs to be completed. My taste has already changed several times over just from searching for products!! The inside can wait.
Any suggestions on how to ornament the exterior? Thanks!
Tracy
I understood.
Same principles apply.
Now hit the books.Excellence is its own reward!
I'm thinking these guys are trying to dress up what was never there. From the pics.....I'd guess simple hip with a coupla dormers. Could be wrong. A quick drive thru the neighborhood or around town would tell ya what was there by looking at similar houses.
A close look at the framing that's left would give clues also.....as would a string line following the rafter tails that were left.
You need a framer.......not a roofer....but a remodeling contractor that does their own roof framing would be the ideal. Find someone that works on older homes.
You are now trying to build a complete roof system.......ie the framer....but it has to tie in to the ancient existing house/framing...ir the remodeler.
Your run of the mill framing contractor woundn't be able to handle this if all they did was new const. framing.
MY first stop would be a good designer/architect. Best for you might be a design/build firm. Or......a qualified remodeler that can frame and has eaten alot of old attic dust over the years.....like me!
I have friends in St Louis that'd put me up!
other than that......make some calls and see who seems to have a good handle on making it all look like it was always there. Jeff
"That's like hypnotizing chickens........."
Edited 6/5/2002 12:43:38 AM ET by Jeff J. Buck
Jeff - you're right - because it is not an Italianate house.T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
I agree that the house is not Italianate, but I haven't a clue as to what it is. The house next to mine is similar in styling (large square home/center hall) and has a Mansard roof, but a small portico(?) porch.
I decided that if that home looked good with a Mansard roof, maybe mine would too...given that I am having difficulty placing the style of architecture.
Folks have suggested styles that range from colonial revival to Italianate, to classical revival, to american foursquare...none of which seems to exactly 'fit' the style of my home.
Maybe the actual 'style' is absent from my hone and I have to create my own style, hence the Italianate suggestion to accompany the type of roof that will give me the most livable space on the third floor...Mansard.
Tracy
Tracy - Does this help put things in perspective?T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
Thanks Jeff,
You wouldn't believe how many of these very interesting sites I have visited over the past year.
Yes, they help tremendously, but only to confuse me further (smiles)! There are several styles that my home resemble (with my novice eyes, that is) I'm sure that a professional could identify the style (if there is one) in a heartbeat.
I will gladly review the site that you have provided me with. They are usually very iteresting. Thanks again,
Tracy
Uh, some of us here ARE professionals ;o)T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
fewer every day! Jeff "That's like hypnotizing chickens........."
I am probably wondering two very obvious things, but then that's what I've always had a keen grasp of...have you canvased the neighborhood for pics of the original house? and could the reason the roof feels so sturdy be because it's on the original third floor joists?
I see a mansard roof, too, but I also hung out with Ken Kesey...
Yes, I have canvassed the neighborhood for photos, but no one has any. Neighbors suggest that the roof was similar to the two homes next to mine (mansard/Italianate), but the pieces remaining on the four comers of my roof suggest Hipped.....and nothing else on my home suggest Italianate.
At this point, I want to go for Mansard just to get the most of the third floor living area, but as someone suggested waaaaay back in this thread, a gambrel will also give me the same effect, but the flavor of the home would certainly be more dutch colonial revival, which would suit me just fine, too. I just need some direction!!
The roof is so lumpy, it's no telling who/what the heck the roof is sitting on!
Tracy
Jeff,
No insult intended, really! I am not a professional in the area of historic architecture (or any form of architecture, for that matter) hence my desire not to continue to do the 'searching' on my own, but to secure the services of a qualified professional who can tell me the various 'styles' featured in my home...for me to consider the recommendations and to move forward in an informed manner. I have searched on my own for over a year, and am no closer to an answer.
I have gotten several 'opinions' (unpaid) from professionals that are as varied as the homes on the site that you referred to me. ..including some one from our local Heritage and Urban Design Office who took time to visit my home and make suggestions (surprise!, colonial revival). But, other professionals have suggested Italianate, American Foursquare, et. al.
I'm just a bit overwhelmed, as a novice, and would like to get as definitive of an answer as possible....that's why I must pay for these services.
I truly respect the information given to me on this site, and would in no way want to insult the very fine artisans who freely offer up their opinions.
Tracy
I was simply trying to point out that you got your answer, for free, from a professional qualified in the area of historic architecture - American Foursquare with classical revival/colonial revival elements.T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
Ah Ha!!! Eureka! Hallelujah! Thank You!!
Tracy
However, if you MUST send a check .....T. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
The kind of truncated pyramid you're talking about has been done before. It looks something like this:
http://www.crystalinks.com/bentpyr.html
-- J.S.
John,
That looks beautiful, but I don't think it would look good as a roof on my home. Can't picture it as a roof. Looks too oblique.
Tracy
Of course you'd want a steeper pitch on the lower slope and less steep on the upper. A little way down that page there's a black and white line drawing.
-- J.S.
John,
Excuse my lack of roofing knowledge. Would I see the upper-most pyramid from the street?
Tracy
Tracy -- It could probably be done either way. Your house appears from the photo to be a little bit uphill from the street. If it's on top of a big hill, it might not be practical to make the upper part visible, but if you don't want to see it, that can probably be done more easily. We'd need some measurements to be able to determine the slope of the sight lines from the street.
-- J.S.
Don,
Would I see the second upper-most pyramid from the street? Or would it be invisible from the street, but providing a slope to displace water? If only you could see the monstrosity that I have drawn on paper!!
Tracy