Hi. Get a load of this story of my roof replacement. I live in Southeastern PA in Bucks County. It all started back in June this past summer. I did all the right things, I thought, when choosing a contractor….got 3 different estimates, checked Angie’s List, talked to them to get a feel for them. One estimate was high and the other two were about equal in terms of price. I chose this particular contractor because he was very attentive and just got a good vibe from him plus he had done my sister’s roof 4 years ago without any problems as far as I know. Plus he had a lifetime warranty. They installed GAF Timberline shingles, ice and water shield, 30 lb felt underlayment, ridge vent.
This particular roofing company touts themselves as being family owned since 1969 supposedly giving you a warm fuzzy feeling I suppose. Ok, so I sign the contract and hand over half the money. Great so far.
His crew shows up and begins work. First they removed the old shingles. I started to feel uneasy when I observed a few techniques they did that I knew were not quite kosher. Like in certain areas where the underlayment ran out they simply started the new roll right at the end of that last roll without tucking it under the previous roll. A detail I saw here in FHB. But I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to be one of those unbearable know it all customers. Also when they got to an area of the roof that I was concerned about, where there was an existing very well made cricket, they simply ripped it off. That particular area requires a cricket but I said nothing again. I did ask about it later but the crew leader said he had been doing this for 7 years and never has had a leak. There they just put an arrangemnt of overlapping shingles, with step flashing (I hope and think), and then counterflashing. It’s a difficult area that needed careful thought and attention to detail. In the end, the counterflashing was too short and you can clearly see that water will get under those shingles it’s just a matter of time. They installed the counterflashing by cutting a groove in the brick. Well according to articles here in FHB there’s a certain bend you need to make to properly and securely tuck that counterflashing into that groove. They just made a tiny bend, pushed it in the groove, and then gunked it up with a sloppy application of clear silicone caulk. The bottom of the counter flashing in this area doesn’t even have a bend to cover/overlap the shingles, I can see the step flashing.
The same sloppiness here was also done on all of the flashing on both chimneys I have too. The counterflashing on the chimneys is copper. That bend at the bottom of the counterflashing is probaly just 3/4″ not enough in my opinion to prevent wind driven rain from getting underneath it and under the shingles below.
Later I learned from the project manager who stopped by to “check on his crew” that this particular crew was found by this roofing company on Craigslist. Not that that is necessarily bad but you know.
They said they were going to install drip edge but they only did that on the rakes. On some overhangs the existing drip edge was beat up from their ripping the old shingles off and denting it and creasing it but they ignored it and simply bent the drip edge back in place which never quite went back nicely . There was a pop rivet there but they didn’t pop rivet it back into place either.
These guys also moved at lightning speed way way too fast. So fast that I thought there was no way they could do the required details professionally and with care. The air powered roofing nail gun was being fired off way too fast I thought to aloow precise palcement of the naisl (more on that later).
I had to replace this roof because it was getting old and there were leaks occuring, I was able to observe the leaks from inside the attic. I had considerable leakage aorund a chimney and that was my major concern and I wanted those flashing details there to be done correctly. It wasn’t a big job either. I have a 1500 sq ft. rancher.
Well, after the job gets done I go up onto the roof to inspect their work and I discover about a dozen and a half roofing nails exposed to the sky not covered by the shingle above them! And it was evident that on a few they took a small triangle of shingle and glued it over top of some of the exposed nail heads! When I called the manager he came out and found even more! A tootal of 2 dozen or so.To his credit he promised to do everything to correct it. He said he couldn’t believe it but these guys had never done this before in the 3 years they’d been working for him. They came out the next day and fixed them and God only knows what they did to the underlayment to fix this issue. I couldn’t be there but I suspect they just hastily did that repair without any care to doing it cleanly. Going forward now, I”M NOT CONFIDENT IN THE INTEGRITY OF THIS ROOF after this experience!
I suspect these roofers/hacks never expect a customer to check their work. I just can’t imagine how many people out there THINK they have a good roof from these guys but it’s only a matter of time before this poor workmanship rears it’s head and they have a leaking roof.
Well here we are about 6 months later and I have to call him back because the chimney flashing is leaking. The manager comes out and promises to fix it the next day. That same crew comes out and what do they do? They arrive at the end of the day , it’s getting dark, and they proceed to repair the WRONG part of the roof! The part where that cricket used to be. AND they make that worse!!! UNBELIEVABLE! They cut the counter flashing there even shorter and throw some roofing tar under the shingles! And then they slam a nail through the flashing and into the brick for good measure I suppose. You don’t hammer nails into brick. yuou morons. Jerks! Plus you’d think that after his crew does a repair , the manager would call to follow up but not a peep is heard from him. A follow up call, to see if I’m satisfied and that all was well would be good business and professional don’t you think?
It snows last week and my roof leaks even worse at the as yet un-repaired chimney area. I call them again and tell the manager about it. He calls me 5 days later and he apologizes and claims that there was a miscommunication between him and the crew. I tell him I don’t want that crew to touch my roof and he needs to bring out someone who knows how to fix this. Again he promises to make it right.
They came out today (that same crew despite my telling him NOT to use them) and no less right before it got dark. There’s no way they could do a good job in the waning light. I get home and climb up in the dark on a wet roof to inspect once again. What do I find? Loose counterflashing , where it wasn’t loose before, a missing screw in the counterflashing leaving an open hole for water to enter and NOT MUCH EVIDENCE they really did anything. The flashing isn’t even tight to the brick now I can pull it away easily. There was a feeble smattering of new roofing cement at the upper end of the counterflashing. Also, isn’t it a no no to put steel screws thru copper because the steel will eventually corrode due to electrolysis between dissimilar metals?
Also my wife encounters them leaving my property and they get stuck on my lawn and left a muddy mess and a deep 20 foot rut in the grass that I now have to fix!
I’m gonna need an inspection camera now to get up under the two areas of flashing that are not above my attic to see if I have leaks there.
What a hassle!!
Where are the professionals who pay attention to details and provide good craftsmanship?
Thanks for listening.
Replies
Where are the professionals who pay attention to details and provide good craftsmanship?
Not in Bucks County.
"high" is relative
pizza wrote:
One estimate was high...
Maybe the other two estimates were low. You may have just passed over the professional roofer you were originally looking for based on faulty assessment of a reasonable price.
BTW, anyone that is sold on a "lifetime warranty" is, IMO, delusional. A material warranty is only as good as the manufacturer standing behind the product*---and if the "lifetime warranty" specifies workmanship to match the life of the material, then your "good vibe" roofer is delusional. Or, perhaps, a slick salesman. Sounds like all evidence points to the latter.
* wow. big deal.
HIgh estimate was the "professional" ?
Since when does expensive equate to a quality professional?
Yeah, it's easy to Monday morning quarterback my situation/nightmare with this roofer but I'm convinced that despite what these contractors say you really never know what kind of quality or service you're going to get. It's a crap shoot. And they know it.
Unless, you've actually seen their quality firsthand AND know what quality is and means.
Why here's an experience of mine where a high estimate turned out to be NOT the right choice....and the lower estimate turned out to be the professional choice.
I needed some electrical work in my electrical panel in my basement. Water was getting into the panel and creating a puddle on top of the main 200A breaker and dripping down the faces of all the breakers below it. One pushy electrical guy quoted me three estimates depending on how much work I wanted to be done and they ranged from $1900 to replace the entire system from the power head outside all the way to a complete replacement of the panel, or $1200 for just the panel replacementor $900 to mess with the upper part of the panel. I said I'll think about it. Oh, and he also fed me some jibberish about some residue on the incoming line that indicated a threatening condition. And, he threw in a "discount" since I was a loyal customer, of which I wasn't , I never spoke to him or this company before that day.
The guy I finally chose carefully considered what was going on and offered a solution for $300, which worked beautifully, and he figured the problem out. And they are nice guys, low key, and professional, and do quality work. This electrician is now my "go to" guy if I need them. They've since got another jobs from me and did a great job with no hassles. And no that second job wasn't overpriced.
To battle these thieves/contractors you really need to educate yourself on the work at hand or at least have someone on your side who's knowledgeable of the repair at hand so you can tell if they're just giving you a line of BS or not. I cringe when I think of all the people out there who have been taken by these guys especially seniors.
it's good to vent sometimes.....
Of course I cannot know all the relevant details peculiar to your unfortunate situation but if it were in my realm I'd consider small
claims court. Sounds like if you take very careful notes supported with good pictures you'd have a very good case for a free do
over.
Roof
Contact the Consumer Protection Division of your state Attorney General's office. They will arbitrate on your behalf. Try this route before taking legal action yourself. I'm not sure if they will get involved once you have started legal proceedings.
Roofer saga
Well, they came out this past Thursday with promises to really fix it. The manager said he was pulling his metal fabricator off of a job so he could be there first thing in the morning. And that he'd look aat and address all three areas I'm concerned about.
Yeah, they go here at 6:30 am so I was able to tell the crew (the one I had specifically told the manager to not bring them becuase they're the ones that are hacks in my opinion) how I felt about their lousy work.
Well, they didn't fabricate any metal or re-do much of anything. I went up on the roof to watch what he did and all they did was squirt more roofing tar into the two outside corners of the chimney under the counter flashing. And didn't even care to look at the other areas. They fixed my lawn somewhat though.
It rained like mad yesterday and I STILL HAVE LEAKING!!
Thanks, guys, for the advice on the legal route if we decide to go that way.
sorry to hear that your attempts to let them correct the issue was not succesfull. is there a clause in your contract with them that addresses what will happen if a problem ends up going to either arbitration or court?
Well, don't make the final payment.
And the saga continues
Dan H: The roof was put on six months ago in the summer and the final payment was made back then..
Any how, here's the latest:
After telling them it's still leaking, the roofers have told me they're going to come out to remove the shingles around the chimney and re do it all. I said I'll need to let him know when to come out since its not convenient this week.
Well, today, the crew that doesn't know how to install a roof or get the flashing details correct unexpectedly shows up!
I managed to get them off the roof before they did any more damage (I think).
I've got re-assurances from the manager that a different crew will be doing the work next week. Let's hope THAT crew knows how to do it right. ( I have my doubts, big doubts). Needless to say I'll be up there with them when they do show up next week.
What a hassle!!
and the final payment was made back then
Why? The final payment should not be made until after you inspect the roof.
get a grip
Sure Dan. Just like you'd inspect a transmission after it's been rebuilt by your mechanic. Horse hockey.
It's not reasonable to expect a homeowner to have to climb their roof to nspect for flashing and leak problems. In fact, many times they wouldn't be evident upon a visual inspection anyhow.
Both times I reroofed I inspected before making final payment. The first time there were some improperly applied cap shingles -- the roofer didn't argue and got it fixed right away.
The second time (different company) the boss actually knocked and invited me up to inspect, and there was nothing visibly wrong (and the roof has been fine for the 10 years or so since then).
Some things you can't really inspect, but a roof you should (before final payment), if you know anything about it. (And the OP seems to know roofing at least halfway well.)
Bragging about what you did in the past will not help the OP, who is living in in the present.
What does Polo have to do with this?
Inspecting the roof
I did inspect it immediately after they installed the roof back in the summer. As i described in my initial post about this mess, upon climbing the roof after they just installed it, I found about 2 dozen nails exposed to the sky i.e. not under the shingles like they should've been. And before I paid the final payment he had to fix all of those exposed nail heads by replacing the shingles.
I really don't think they expect the customer to climb the roof. Why they even had tried to hide a few of the nails by glueing small triangles of shingle over the most obvious ones.
Dan (or anyone who's knowleadgeable about flashing chimneys), is it possible to reflash around the chimney in cold weather? Will the new peel and stick ice and water shield material really stick well to cold brick and roof deck? Or should I tarp the chimney using that Gorilla tape and wait for spring for them to re-do the job? Will caulk work in the cold? They'll need to re-caulk the top of the counter flashing into those mortar joints.
Thanks
Anything can be done in cold weather, if you have the skills and determination. It sounds like your roofers don't have either.
Cold IS A Problem
Roofing in cold weather is a bed idea, for two reasons.
The first is that the work is both more dangerous and difficult. Quality and efficiency suffer. The materials are brittle, and more likely to crack.
Second, roof shingles require heat to properly seal together after they're installed. This won't happen until / unless the shingles get hot enough to melt that band of tar on the underside, the bad that glues each shingle to the one under it. You won't get the temperatures on the roof that you need until well into Spring.
I am always amazed at the mind set that asserts 'skills and determination' when people suffer ... but will instantly cough up the money for conditioning the moment a piece of equipment malfunctions.
Consider a different approach
Glueing shingle fragments to conceal exposed nails is deliberate fraud on top of the documented shoddy incompetence.
Consult a lawyer, along with the government agencies suggested by other posters.
I think a suit for the cost of a new roof by a new roofer plus all water related damages is in order. I would also wonder about crimminal consumer fraud being appropriate.
Document everything, send follow up memos to document any and all coversations. CC the Attorney on all memos. Maybe the roofer will figure out that his adze will be in a sling if he doesn't make good. Given the track record up to this point, I doubt it.
If this guy could fix your problems, he would, if only to get rid of you.
Therefore: he can't fix your roof. So stop trying to get him to do what he can't.
Doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results is Einstein's definition of insanity.
You have been far too nice for far too long, its time to consider a different approach. Get nasty.
Good luck. I fear you are going to need it.
I would agree that there's no point in trying to get this guy to fix the roof. You need to get enough money out of him to pay someone else to fix the roof.
Good luck.
Different approach
Thanks for the advice.
Well, unbeknownst to this roofer, I gave him one final chance to fix the leaking. They promised to come out now and pull up the shingles and redo the flashing with a different crew. They showed up on dec 17 by again unnecessarily driving onto another part of my soggy lawn creating yet another rut. When I stepped out my back door to meet them I noticed the one guy coming from behind my detached garage apparently after relieving himself back there. Really dude? Here we go again. Very unprofessional wouldn't you say?
The younger of the two seemed to me to be high on something, glazed sort of vacant look to him and he seemed to be moving slow sort of. Not alert. I had to remind him to tie his boot laces while he was up on the roof ! The ladder actually fell over and almost damaged my railing but thankfully no one was hurt. I thought could this be really happening?
In the end they never ripped off the shingles around the chimney as the manager said he would. They just added a piece of flashing on the upside of the chimney with a " dog ear" to help divert the water better. And they added more silicone to the corners and on the mortar joints directly above the counterflashing.
During our next rain or snow event I'll be checking for leaks. IVe lined up another reputable (I hope) roofing company that comes with some very good consumer ratings. I wish we had known about these guys before these current roofers!
What a major hassle!!!!
Good judgement comes from .....
I was once asked,
"Where does good judgement come from?" I dunno.
"Experience. Do you know where experience comes from?" Nope.
"Bad judgement".
So, ask yourself, what else could you have done to further evaluate this soiled bag of feces before you hired him? At least you will know to do that the next time.
***
I call this the cost of an education every time I step in something that has to then be fixed. I just learned something.
If it were me, I would still be exploring if damages could be recoverable via an attorney or government. You would be performing a pubic service for your community. Somehow, I doubt this guy will care about a bad Yelp review.
Good luck.
one thing...
Despite all the apparent negligence these guys have created I wouldn't hold it against a guy from sneaking out to whiz behind the garage. Been there and done that, sometimes a worker just has to do what he has to do......
The quality of the job is a whole 'nother issue though....
When I bought my house, I had a contractor look at the roof. Some folks - the realtor, my insurance agent, etc. - had commented on the roof. The roofer expressed the opinion that, considering what he had seen and my assertion that it wasn't leaking, that I might get "a couple" more years out of it. This was good news, as I have major plans for that roof later on.
Well, a year later, and the roof sprang a leak. Not willing to spend all winter chasing leaks around the roof, expressed a desire for a complete replacement. The estimator - who had first mentioned a patch - opined that, were it his house, he would do the same. He also suggested that he pass the work on to someone he recommended, since his (large) firm mainly did commercial work.
I liked the replacement plan, as I have seen 'repairs' become nightmares far too many times. I called a real contractor, because I have seen 'cheap' solutions - like hiring some guy for 'side work' after hours, or grabbing some temps from day-labor - become nightmares. I've only seen ONE roof properly put up by a homeowner (the wife, no less!), and that job took all summer.
The recommended guy came out, did his own inspection, and bid on replacing 4 of the 5 roof faces; one face had been done fairly recently, and was in fine shape, he said. He quoted aprice that was 320% the cost of the shingles, according to my own estimate. I agreed.
When the day came, they arrived on time, crew of 4 (including the foreman), fully equipped and prepared. The morning was spent in doing the tear-off (into their special motorized trailer),replacing damaged decking and trim, and putting down the underlayment. After a long lunch, they returned to put on the shingles.One day, all done, ALL trash removed. Quiet compressors, no fuss.
During much of the work, the estimator from the 'big company' was there. watching.
Folks ask who I used. When I tell them, their reply is "but they're expensive!" Well, a job done right is a bargain at twice the price. The crew I used was completely legal. Permit was obtained. Bank and insurance company are happy. Best of all, that roof has performed perfectly. No leaks,no wind loss, no instances of the lawn mower hitting a bit of scrap or a roofing nail finding it's way to the car's tire. One day's work,with no disruption. No extra charges for those "unexpected" repairs.
As I remodel this house, I will be making changes to my roof. Moving plumbing vents, adding skylights, adding a ridge vent, extending part of the roof out. That's the reason I didn't want to replace the roof right away. Well, I know who I'll call ....
Sounds like a bargain.
"Quality is the only bargain". Benjamin Franklin.
1/3 materials & 2/3 for labor sounds appropriate for such a labor intensive job as roofing.
Regrettably, many folks don't see the value, only the cost.
Given the OPs history with his roofer, I thought that the worker getting caught wizzing on the building an indication of profound disrespect. As in, 'This is what we think of your complaints'. Not the wizz necessarily, but getting caught, meaning, ' I don't give a flock'.
Good luck.
What's their number?
And do they work in southeast PA?
The results of that last repair
Well, that last repair didn't work either despite their comment that they would bet me a million dollars that the roof won't leak.. My roof leaked again. Should've got that bet in writing and notarized.
And yes, I've learned from this experience. The next repair company (or any contractor) who come out to my house will need to have their act together - I'll be checking licences, getting everything in writing, asking detailed questions, checking references (but how do u really do that when they could be giving me references who are their friends and relatives? How am I going to know really?) etc.
Now I'm going to be such a ball buster that they'll be scared to do work for me.
Pizza
the minute you see roof goop there's reason to be concerned. If it was there b/4, it should have all been removed. If it was used on a reroof, they should have been sent packing. If they used it to correct Their mistake, they shoulda been shot.
Put Up A Sign
A big sign, where passing traffic can see it. "Leaky Ugly Roof done by ABC Roofing" or some such.
Then, post security cameras (like DropCam) and wait. With any luck, you'll have the troll come by and commit a crime or two.
When you have the roof re-done, advertise that fact. "Faulty Roof Done Right By Joe."
Ooohh, I like it.
This might just help get some compensation. I would still be consulting an attorney about the fraud perpetrated on the OP.
Good luck.
forget the nonsense
I'd advise against such nonsense. It's a waste of time and effort...and won't get you any closer to getting your roof fixed properly. I also don't see any point of paying a lawyer to litigate fraud charges. Simply because, IMO, fraud hasn't been committed. Incompetence for sure...and perhaps breach of contract. But again, it's not worth the legal effort to sue in this case. Your simply got a bad roofing job. Trying to shame unprofesssional contractors out of business is like playing wack-a-mole. They'll be plenty to take their place. Look on the bright side: at least nobody was hurt and your grass will grow back.
The best advice so far is from Dan: Point out the shortcoming of your job to the owner of the company and try to get the biggest refund possible. Take that money, add in the cost of your valuable learning experience, and find someone professional to fix your roof properly.