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When do the PERMITS STOP??????

When do the PERMITS STOP?????? (post #77257)

loucarabasi on Fri, 04/13/2007 - 01:01

General Discussion

I went to my township planning and building office for a pemit for a shed for my yard, They say I need a zoning application that is a 56 dollar fee, A slab affidavit for the slab 35 dollars and on top of it a construction permit 90 dollars. The shed is only 10 x 12 and 12 ft high. When will they stop this nonsense? Ive been in the business 22 years now and I wonder what it will be like 20 years from now? Does this anger anyone else or is it just me.

Just venting, LMC

As the twig bends- So grows the tree!!

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by ChicagoMike in reply to loucarabasi [original] on Fri, 04/13/2007 - 01:30

YES!!!! I am with you brotha! Where does all of this money go? To the inspector that I have to remind of proper code? I am with you.

"It is what it is."

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by DanH in reply to loucarabasi [original] on Fri, 04/13/2007 - 01:34

Check and see if you can omit the permanent foundation -- ie, put it on skids -- and duck all the permitting requirements. That's what can be done here.

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

We are like tenant farmers chopping down the fence around our house for fuel when we should be using Nature's inexhaustible sources of energy -- sun, wind and tide. ... I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. --Thomas Edison

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by FastEddie in reply to loucarabasi [original] on Fri, 04/13/2007 - 01:40

I built a garden tool shed 10x12 on treated 6x6. Anything 120sf or more or with a concrete foundation required a permit.

"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson

"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt

"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson

"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt

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by pinko in reply to loucarabasi [original] on Fri, 04/13/2007 - 02:02

When do the permits stop?

When you, and the rest of us stop acknowledging the idiots who tell us we need permission (from morons) to build something on our own property.

Build it anyway you want and ignore them.

When the majority of us do this, the assinine permits will necessarily stop.

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by loucarabasi in reply to Anonymous [original] on Fri, 04/13/2007 - 08:59

I hear you pinko, Problem is that I got into a little scuffle with a BI in my town that I live in. I'am not a mean guy!! It was a bad day and he had made some derogatory remarks at one of my men that is deaf and he was. I got off the ladder and shoved him to the ground ( I am not bragging about this in any way). But he had it coming to him. Well the police showed up and all hell broke loose. Had to go to court. Told the mediator lady I would do it again if the circumstances were the same and that I would like to do it right now!!! I had to defend my guy, He is one the kindest people I know He does charity work all the time. He's not marrried no kids. Just a good egg. So they had a restraining order set on me. Granted I havn't been in a fight since the 3rd grade. Really!! Long story short, This guy got $hit canned. But now everybody knows me as the guy who pushed that [JOBSITE WORD]. Actually I ran into the guy at chucky cheeses (he seamed like a good family man) so I stopped the anger towards him.

Two cents, Lou

As the twig bends- So grows the tree!!

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by DavidxDoud in reply to Anonymous [original] on Fri, 04/13/2007 - 13:05

Told the mediator lady I would do it again if the circumstances were the same and that I would like to do it right now!!! I had to defend my guy...

well, hat's off to ya - not sure of your strategy, but I find no fault in your motive/heart -

glad you were able to let you of your anger afterwards - -

from wabash county, where a few will admit we really ought to have a BI....

"there's enough for everyone"

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by loucarabasi in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 09:25

Stategy goes out the window when you are soo pi$$ed!!

Lmc

As the twig bends- So grows the tree!!

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by frenchy in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 00:50

pinko,

do that here and you wind up in jail untill you agree to remove it.

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by Noidea in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 01:22

I had to get a permit to build a garage on my own property 4yrs ago and it cost $585 here. Recently, the little tin star wearing code inspector noted that the small shed at the back of my property was in need of a coat of paint and a new door. He sent me a letter saying that it would have to be repaired within 30 days or the job of demolition would be put up for bids and I would be charged for job of tearing down my shed. If I refused to pay, a lien would be placed on my property until the demolition is paid for. I could get an extension of 120 days if I bought a "remodel permit" or "demolition permit." Of course I found it unbelievable that the city could tear down my shed because it needed paint but found that they have been doing it since 2003. In fact, they tore down several buildings on one owners property and accidentally tore down one that was not supposed to be demolished. Now there is a lawsuit pending due to the mistake.

I don't live in a plush neighborhood. I live on a couple of acres by myself with no close neighbors. City inspectors have little to do around here during the winter and look around to justify their positions. This could be costly for someone in poor health who can't do the work themselves or afford to pay to have it done.

Sorry to hijack the thread, the permit cost rant reminded me of how the Union of Soviet Socialists of Northern Oklahoma operate. I gotta get down to the Kremlin and get one of those remodel permits next week so that I can paint.

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by Brian in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 02:04

I remember a story - Colorado I think - about a guy that armor plated his huge dozer and drove into town for revenge, selectively destroying buildings.

Perhaps it was the inane laws of our land that drove him over the edge.

This shed deal is ridiculous. Paint it, but plant some fast-growing trees too. Can you do that without a permit?

Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!

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by Ragnar17 in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 09:25

I remember a story - Colorado I think - about a guy that armor plated his huge dozer and drove into town for revenge, selectively destroying buildings.

Perhaps it was the inane laws of our land that drove him over the edge.

I never heard of that one. I'll have to see if I can find the story somewhere on the net to see how things turned out. [edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer]

Frankly, I'm surprised that more people don't literally go berzerk like that. Especially with the rampant eminent domain abuses; I think it's only a matter of time before someone decides to take up arms to prevent their house from being taken from them. Maybe it's happened already, and I just haven't heard about it.

It's a sad state of affairs right now with respect to property rights. I hope that the Kelo case gets overturned before too much longer.

Edited 4/14/2007 5:42 am ET by Ragnar17

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by DougU in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 10:04

I think it's only a matter of time before someone decides to take up arms to prevent their house from being taken from them.

I grew up in a little town in the middle of nowhere Iowa, about 500 people at their peak.

About 20 years ago the city was putting in a sewer system. One guy didnt want it! He didnt believe in indoor plumbing but thats a whole nother topic. <G>

He stood his ground inside the house with a shotgun, wasnt going to allow anyone in to do the hookup! Eventually he lost that battle but he has since bought a piece of land out in the country and moved his house there - and guess what, still no indoor plumbing!

I'm sure there are countless other stories.

Doug

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by DanH in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 11:28

The people that "go postal" will do it eventually, regardless. They're always picking fights with the city or their neighbors or whoever and have a very narrow/rigid/distorted view of "right and wrong". The specific matter that finally sets them off is not really all that relevant.

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

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by Ragnar17 in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 20:01

Dan,

I'd probably agree with you that many people who "go postal" have a specific personality type.

However, it's far too often that I hear of the government picking fights with individuals, not the other way around.

Take for example, all the eminent domain abuses over the last decade. The homeowners aren't picking a fight with anybody. All of a sudden, however, they find themselves being forced off their land because some ethically-challenged individual has enlisted the help of some like-minded folks on the city council.

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by DanH in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 20:33

Eminent domain has been a frequent source of conflict since the country was founded. Nothing new there, and, as in the past, there are a lot of different factors involved. If anything, the rules have become fairer to the property owners over the past few decades.

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

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by pinko in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 21:41

>>If anything, the rules have become fairer to the property owners over the past few decades.

Huh? How's that? Jeez, you act like you're FOR the state's claim that the government owns all the property within their borders and the rest of us are just 'visitors'. After all, that is what they honestly believe. I mean, I know we here in the great USA like to believe we own our property--that we have some inherent 'property rights'...but we really don't.. Is that a good thing?

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by DanH in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 21:58

I'm just stating the facts, as I understand them.

Go back and look at some of the Urban Renewal stuff in the early 60s, eg. Or what the railroads could get away with in the 1800s.

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

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by Ragnar17 in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 22:58

Have you reviewed the Kelo case?

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by DanH in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sun, 04/15/2007 - 02:58

Not in detail, but what I've read suggests that it's nothing special/out of the ordinary. The Supreme Court decision, of course, had nothing to do with the "merits" of the case but only dealt with the legality of eminent domain for development purposes and the right of states to regulate it. The court rightly held that this is something that has traditionally been regulated by the states and is not a place for the federal government to meddle.

It's been turned into a cause celebre by some political factions who would have you believe that it represents some "new" activity on the part of the government, but this is not the case.

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

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by Ragnar17 in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sun, 04/15/2007 - 06:44

Dan,

You brought up an interesting point in a previous post about how bad the Urban Renewal stuff was in the early 60s, and the what the railroads got away with in the 1800s. I'll have to look into both of those topics in more detail.

You wrote that the Kelo case has "been turned into a cause celebre by some political factions who would have you believe that it represents some "new" activity on the part of the government."

I might be wrong, but the "new" activity on the part of the government seems to be in their interpretation of the term "public use" as mentioned in the Fifth Amendment: "...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Historically, "public use" seems to have been things like schools, roads, bridges and the like.

Now, local governments are expanding the definition of the term to be somewhat synonymous with public benefit. They argue that, for example, if the transfer of property will result in increased property taxes to the local government, then the public will benefit.

From a 60 Minutes article written in 2004:

"Cities across the country have been using eminent domain to force people off their land, so private developers can build more expensive homes and offices that will pay more in property taxes than the buildings they're replacing. " [emphasis added] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/60minutes/main575343.shtml

The article mentions a retired couple living in Lakewood, Ohio. The city is attempting to condemn the entire neighborhood in which this couple lives in order to replace it with luxury condos and a shopping mall. The mayor says she sought out a developer for the project because Lakewood's aging tax base has been shrinking and the city simply needs more money.

In order to justify the taking of the property, the city labeled the neighborhood as "blighted". Their criteria? The typical home in the old neighborhood doesn't have "three bedrooms, two bathrooms, an attached two-car garage, and central air."

There's more, of course. If you have the chance, please read the referenced article.

Edited 4/15/2007 2:45 am ET by Ragnar17

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by DanH in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sun, 04/15/2007 - 12:12

It's always (since the railroads, at least) been common to use eminent domain to take property for private development, and I can assure you that in many cases this was not "for the public good" but to line developers' (and politicians') pockets.

What's changed (for the better) is that it's become more necessary to explicitly document the "public good" in order to pursue eminent domain. But when you become more explicit like this you tend to split hairs finer and finer, and, understanding that anything even hinting of a racial or social justification (when defining "blight", eg) must be studiously avoided, the reasoning necessarily becomes more and more convoluted.

Another change for the better that's occurred in most states is that "just compensation" must indeed be "just" (in most cases). Used to be that the government could rather arbitrarily set the compensation, but now "due process" must be followed in the valuation of the property. (There are a few odd areas such as trees, where sometimes the compensation is fixed at something like $75 per tree, and of course there are the long-standing issues of loss of access and loss of appearance that have no good answer.)

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

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by Ragnar17 in reply to Anonymous [original] on Tue, 04/17/2007 - 05:59

DanH,

Thanks for your thoughts on this. I may have been wrong in thinking that emininent domain abuse was a "new" thing.

Whether new or old, I assume we agree it is wrong.

Regards,

Ragnar

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by DanH in reply to Anonymous [original] on Tue, 04/17/2007 - 10:23

Certainly "abuse" is wrong. But it's also hard to define -- very subjective. There's no strong evidence in the Kelo case that condemnations were performed to benefit any individual or private organization. What's at question is the vagueness of the "public good" in that case, and how rigorous the test of public good should be to merit use of eminent domain.

The court rightly held that this determination is too situational to be a constitutional standard -- the decision is better left to states and state courts.

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

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by BillHartmann in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sun, 04/15/2007 - 13:59

"It's been turned into a cause celebre by some political factions who would have you believe that it represents some "new" activity on the part of the government, but this is not the case.'

All of then that I have heard discussing it was not saying that it was new, but rather continuitng and increasing.

.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

. William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

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by DanH in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sun, 04/15/2007 - 14:03

I doubt that it's increasing that much, especially compared to certain earlier periods such as the early 60s. "Continuing", yes. But the alarmists tried to make it out as something new (and even tried to characterize the Supreme Court's decision as "activist").

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

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by BryanSayer in reply to Anonymous [original] on Tue, 04/17/2007 - 19:21

The Kelo case is exactly what one expects from a conservative supreme court. It upheld STATES rights. It has very little to do with property rights.

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by Luka in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sat, 04/14/2007 - 23:06

Dan,

You accidentally left the words "Some of..." off of the beginning of your post.

A priest once said, "When I feed the poor, they call me a saint -- when I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist" ~IanDG '03

It's a small world. Until you have to walk home...

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by DanH in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sun, 04/15/2007 - 02:59

Did not.

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

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by Luka in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sun, 04/15/2007 - 06:46

Did too.

A priest once said, "When I feed the poor, they call me a saint -- when I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist" ~IanDG '03

It's a small world. Until you have to walk home...

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by DanH in reply to Anonymous [original] on Sun, 04/15/2007 - 12:12

Did not.

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

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When do the PERMITS STOP??????

When do the PERMITS STOP?????? (post #77257)

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